Mark (and SMB and SB and HB and FH and KA and 2 Long any anyone else reading)

It's all gooooood....TJ away. I'm not able to post anything indepth now either but I'm intrigued by the civil discussion. (I'm not shouting anymore either cuz I'm at work and have no time.)

FH, I will re-read your post and may not have the full scope of your message, but after briefly scanning it, I think you're explaining part of my frustration. I agree that none of us will ever be 100% in agreement, but at least we can be civil and decent and respectful to each other when we disagree on ideas. That's my point.

Thanks,

Ace

I did just add in my link in my sig line either this morning or last night. (With little kids on vacation it all blurs together. They are a handful all right, full of energy and just silly!)

Sorry Heart, my net went down before I could find the info you were asking about. I have seen it at least one other time, but here is one place.


Later it was discussed whether this person could simply disguising their IP address. Who knows?

But even if you have only seen a small part of what they have been trying to do here, it is past strange and well into sinister.

No normal person would do all the things this plethora of characters has done.

If you would like firsthand accounts, ask SexyMamaBear, TST, Schoolbus, and Orchid. There may be others that I don't know about, but that is a good start.

Even with all that, the injured members themselves have offered olive branches, which have been either ignored, or acknowledged with a non-apology.

I would have been the first to believe "it is never too late to start over", but in this case the individual in question may be fast approaching that point.

Woops, posted to the wrong thread. Well, you can see what happens when I try to multitask. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Ok, not deleting since there has been a lot of abuse of that lately, and I don't want to give the wrong impression, lol, but am going to copy these posts to where they belong.

The olive branches have been rejected, ignored or acknowledged with a non-apology because the minute "BA" does the right thing, the gig is up. It's no more FUN (in a sick twisted way) for BA.

BA would have to shed its skin and be EXPOSED and ACCOUNTABLE.

Hi Acey.

No I mean that those who feel strongly about a situation on MB they consider to be unrighteous should comment if they wish. No compulsion or guidance as to how to post. Just my opinion.

Without that, the MB boards will become a nice,pc, sympathetic place for everyone to be and no dayum use to any of us.

If something chafes another posters pants but not yours, jus' ignore it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

That's what I do

I disagree with your opinion.

BK,

OK...

Mark

I also disagree that we are responsible for the perceptions of others.

Perception is NOT reality.

Feelings CAN be wrong.


Just because someone has hurt feelings because they PERCEIVED that I did something, in no way makes me to blame for their pain - if the facts of the case are that I did NOTHING to hurt them.

Not in any way, shape, or form.


SB

Hi there,

Happy New Year everyone. Here is something I posted on another thread, and I thought it might be relevant here too.


* i used to be called smur*

SB,

Though I guess I didn't state it right, my point was that we did do harm to them though not intentionally. While feelings and perceptions are transient, that does not make them unreal to the person who is having those feelings or perceptions.

It isn't that someone simply thought I hurt them, they were hurt by my actions or words because they misinterpreted my intent or meaning. Isn't it my responsibility to attempt to clarify my words so that they do not take offense where none was intended? Or should I just tell them that they are wrong in the way they feel about what I did or said and let it remain their problem? Or should I just try to justify my position and be done with it?

Or should I then intentionally attempt to hurt them and/or their feelings further by calling them stupid for not understanding me properly? Am I justified in doing that?

And what if someone else jumps to their defense, am I then justified in shifting my wrath to them by alluding to what I perceive them to be saying or doing, though I know nothing more of their intent than the person who was offended knew of my intent in the first place?

Mark

Ace, Mark & Smu,

Ace, thanks for starting this thread. It is moving along well with for the most part, civilized comments we can read, agree or disagree but still respect. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Mark, awesome illustrations. Like the illusionist and the accident. Wow <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

You presented it in a 3rd party aspect so even if some wanted to take offense it would have been difficult. I like your style of helping us learn. Good job. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Personally, I know it is ok to disagree. How one chooses to do so is important. Whether I like you or not should not be noticeable here. If you post something that can help me, I will give it a read. My personal stance is to take the good and discard the bad. I have seen good and bad posts from everyone here. Some just more than others. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

So when I read your posts this morning, I thought about respect. That is the tie that binds our posting style with the truth and our perception. Respect lets us post what we need to say without being offensive.

This evening, when I read Smu's quote, it hit home. It was put quite nicely. I would like to thank Smu for giving us those wise words. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

So I am weary of that 'war of words'. Personally, I am posting less and focusing on helping those I can. It hurts my heart to see good people try to make some good points in a sincere effort to get back on track and then and get stomped on.

For those who like to 'tell it like it is'...... you can but where's your tact? If that's the way you post to total strangers...... it sure makes some of us wonder how you treat those you really care about. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> Of course it's not our business how you treat the ones you love, but it still makes us wonder. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Now where's that thread from BR about 'you want t/b right or b married?' <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

JMHO,
L.

Orchid,

I can live with disagreement...

I even like to argue...(respectfully, of course) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

If two of us are exactly alike, one of us is redundant...

I wonder what the doctor is thinking about all of this some times.

Dr H posted to a normal everyday thread today, in case you missed it. It's over in the After Divorce:Dating/Relationships forum.

It actually felt good to hear him reinforce what regulars were telling the original poster. Way cool! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />



I recall a joke about misunderstanding what is being communicated:

A woman from the old country goes to the doctor for a checkup. She returns home with her clothes ripped, her hair a mess and bruises on her face and arms. Her husband looks at her says, "My God woman..What happened to you?"

"well" she says "I went for my checkup at the doctor today and when it got to my turn to check in at the desk I gave this young thing my name.

"She picked up this piece of paper and asked 'Did you bring a specimen?' And what is a specimen? I asked"

"The b*tch said 'P!ss in a bottle' and I said 'Spit in the ocean!' and the fight was on..."


Smu,

Brilliant observation, BTW.

I was at work when I was posting right after that and was in sort of a rush to post my thoughts before someone changed the subject on me (which happens at work a lot) and, well...I was being lazy and just wanted to be sure I had time to post what I wanted to say...


But it was pretty darned good, IMO.

Mark

You're right, Bob and for the most part, I do ignore it. In fact some may even think I'm too nice cuz I ignore it. But I shouted this morning so now maybe I have it out of my system. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Great topic, Mark...looking forward to more comments.

Thanks,
Ace

Acie,

I know this thread is now 5 pages long. I thought I would respond to your first post. Yes, I am tired of the war of words, the DJ's thrown around, and insults and name calling.

It is one of the reasons I am weening myself off of this site.

I thought I might offer a few thoughts as I actually saw one poster ask another poster "how many marriages he had saved on this site." I just shook my head <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Mrs. W pointed out that Steve Harley thinks of himself as a sales man. IN this case someone that sells people on the idea that their marriage can be saved and made better if the tools on this site are applied. I liked that.

Here is why? I can say with absolute certainty that I HAVE NEVER SAVED A MARRIAGE OTHER THAN MY OWN. I may have helped a few people see things differently but the ONLY PEOPLE WHO SAVE A MARRIAGE are the people in the marriage. Anyone who really thinks differently is really being arrogant and I seem to be seeing a lot of that lately.

Folks, this board is for discussion, it is for helping people both WS and BS to come to the idea that their marriage just might be saved when they feel all is lost. It is to supply them with ideas, show them experiences, tell them of other stories like them, and show them to them.

Now here is the part that is driving me crazy and off the boards. If I were the best poster on this site (I'm not), I would still encounter people that just don't "get" what I am saying. The strength of this site is people get to hear many views of the same thing, similar experiences with different twists and details. I try not to point to other posts on a thread unless I feel they are good, because I want the reader to get many points of view and choose the one that makes the most sense to them in saving their marriage. IT IS THEIR CHOICE AFTER ALL.

THis leads me to the issue of trolls. They have always been here. Some come and spin very heart wrenching stories and many people respond and post and spend a lot of time with them. I have done so more times than I can count.

I don't worry about them. Why? Because other people read these threads, people that don't post here, and perhaps some thing I or others say might help them. WHo knows. Eventually we all figure out that no progress is being made, and that something smells fishy and we gradually leave. AND SO DO THE TROLLS.

The other type is more representative of one on the site now. My question is why waste time with them? Let them post. Here is the one thing you MUST remember. People coming here for help need to decide for themselves what posting style, what insight, helps them. We cannot decide that for them. They will eventually figure out that the troll is NOT helping them and the troll is now marginallized. Please trust people who post here to figure out what they need, what helps them, and what does not. It is for them to decide, not us.

I beleive if more of this were to happen the troll issue would fade, and energy and focus would go back toward helping people...if we can.

Day in and day out, our best advice is to read the articles, read Dr. Harley's and other's books and seek counceling with a pro-marriage counselor. What we can do is help interpret what they read via our experiences.

People have been discussing how the board has changed. It has because of the volume of posters now. In other ways it has not. But, if you were to search the archives for the initials IMHO, you would find that term used a lot more in the old days than now. In My Humble Opinion is something we need to remember and use. The use of this term has diminished greatly and because of that the board is poorer.

Our "humble opinions" should be used much more, that trying to take another poster to task because we don't agree with them. Folks, use your "humble" opinions to help people, and trust that they will find their "truth" via the variety of opinions, ideas, thoughts, and suggestions offered to them. Recognize that only they can heal their marriages via their commitment, hopefully new knowledge and perspectives, and if they are religious via their religious teachings.

I think that if people would recognize these things, the "good old days" would be now.

God Bless,

JL

Hey JL. Wanna go with me 2 Australia? We could use WAT's boat.

We'd have 2 take him 2, of course, because he would know the difference between port and starboard.

I tried Mad Magazine's method, but I remain confused:

"'Port' has 4 letters, like 'left', so 'port' is the 'left' side of the boat.

'Starboard is the other side of the boat. And since there are only 2 sides of the boat and we've already discussed one of them, then the other one is left. So, 'starboard' is the 'left' side of the boat."

-ol' 2long

JL,

Hope this doesn't jinx your post but I just wanted to tell you how much I appreciate what you wrote.

A lot of what happened, has happened before. Maybe to a different degree but the same kind of thing. Still MB survived.

Not many have spoken for in behalf of the 'silent majority' of readers who do read this site on a regular basis and for many the suggestions posted here have helped.

For those same ones and others to see unnecessary dissension is sad. ;( What needs to show is a spirit of cooperation as to the general mission or goal of MB. Personal recovery is achievable by all and M recover is possible when the Ws/Xws decide to return and show they are a valuable family member.

We can all approach those goals from different perspective, angles & POVs. Healthy constructive criticism has been helpful in the past but the rude, caustic comments are never helpful.

Looks like I rambled more than I meant to, sorry. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> Just wanted to say thanks. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Mahalo,
L.

Yes, I would just like to ditto Orchid's thanks - I appreciate your comments, JL, which IMHO really hit the mark.

One of the things that strikes me about posters who are in conflict with each other is the DJs. This is something Dr. Harley stresses is vital to eradicate from a marriage, if the marriage is to become what it should be - but this concept seems to bypass many posters when they are dealing with each other. I think that if all posters were to practice the discipline of refraining from Disrespectful Judgements, the discussions on this board would not descend into such animosity. For me, I think this is the main difference between the board 5 years ago, and the board today....I think 5 years ago, posters had taken on board (no pun intended) this Harley concept to a much a greater degree. It is hard for me to see how posters who are disrespectful to each other can successfully coach a person who's marriage is failing in recovering their marriage, when being able to refrain from DJs and learning how to negotiate with respect for the other person's point of view is one of the skills which is so vital in building a successful marriage.

There is also this fine line to walk between having a sense of humour about things, venting when needing to, and being sarcastic in a way that some posters might feel can be offensive.

I see a lot of this conflict as a symptom of the way people relate to each other, and perhaps it is a good thing to talk through some of these issues.

I also think the board is going through some upheavals - I don't think it is a bad thing that some of the "oldtimers" are going - for some people I think it is probably the healthy thing for them to do for themselves and their own marriage. We all know how addicting the internet, internet discussions, and an internet community can be. I think that in general terms, on the internet as a whole, people are starting to learn that there has to be a balance between what they do on the internet and the attention they pay to life "off the net". Perhaps some of the oldtimers are at a point in their lives where they are "rejigging" this balance...and I think that is a sign of the healthiness of their lives now.

In my case, I have been a member since 2002. I would not say that my marriage has recovered. However, I am still married. This is one of the reasons I have watched the discussion of K's marriage. I choose to stay married, as does my H. Perhaps we are both choosing to stay in a marriage which does not meet the emotional needs of either of us. I don't deny that. It may be that our bad marriage is not so bad that it is unbearable for most of the time, although it feels unbearable for some of the time, and/or it is a lot less bad than the alternative which divorce would bring. I am sure there are many people who come to these boards who do not recover their marriage the "Harley" way, and I am sure that by and large, they stop posting, as they do not feel they are a "success story" - nevertheless, they are there. I think JL is absolutely right that the only people who can save a marriage are the two people in the marriage themselves, and it takes both of them to do it. One can start the process. One cannot finish the job. Both have to dedicate themselves together to recovering their relationship, and consciously making it their no. 1 priority, in order for successful recovery to happen. IMO, that is why our marriage is not "recovered" although we are still married.

I am in a different emotional place than I was when I came here in 2002. At the time, my marriage problems seemed simple - that is not the case now. I think once your marriage falls apart, you start realizing how complex it is when you try to put it back together. For me this has been a difficult process and I am grateful to Dr. Harley and MB for helping me to define the aspects of a good relationship. I have finally found an IC who I feel safe working with. There were a lot of people here at MB who helped me when I first found MB - Estes49, Orchid, Pepperband, you, and Still Seeking. I am very grateful to Still Seeking for continuing to encourage me to "walk in the light" - that is what he has done for me and that is what my thread here is for me. I think it is with his help that I have found some of the help I need "off the net". A lot of the people who come here are incredibly vulnerable and more desperate than they have every been in their lives, and they expose themselves to scrutiny in a way that can be healing and helpful, but can also potentially be very damaging and dangerous. I am very cautious now about what I say here. I do not reveal everything that I am feeling, or everything that others in my life do, or have done. That is not because I am trying to be deceptive to the people on the forum who are trying to help me, but because I don't feel that public exposure here is the place for some of the things I have to deal with. I don't think that is an unhealthy choice for me to have made. I also do not feel that my thread is a "blog" - it is not a place for me to indulge in a daily diary of all my thoughts and feelings - at this point in my life, that would be an unhealthy use of my time and also of the attention of StillSeeking. My thread is a conversation, not exclusively with StillSeeking, not necessarily daily, on "walking in the light", for which I am very grateful.

One of the things that I am mindful of is that my H still does not know that I post here. Nevertheless, I do feel that I would not like to post anything I would feel uncomfortable with him reading. I have told my H about this site, I have printed things out for him to read, which he did read, I have also told his two best friends that I found this site and found it extremely helpful. If my H wanted to come to this site and find me here, he probably could. I do not tell him specifically that I post here because I am afraid of his reaction. My fear is a valid one. I am not ready to risk that yet. This brings me back to the conflict on the boards. At the present time, I don't feel this board is a healthy space for my H, the FWS. I would like it if he did come here, and if he did come here anonymously, I am sure he would get a lot of the right kind of advice. But I am afraid he would also get a lot of DJs, which would have a very negative effect on him and not help us to recover our marriage. That is the biggest change I see in the past 5 years. Five years ago, I would have felt more comfortable about my H receiving the kind of help a WS needs to recover the marriage. Now I am not so sure....I know from my experience with my H that DJs simply cement the WS sense of entitlement....that is why DJs to WS from posters here are very destructive to recovery. JMHO.

JL, excellent post!



I read that too. Pretty arrogant, huh?



Agreed. The Troll Police and self-dubbed Savers of Marriages seem to feel some sort of ownership over this board, entitling them to use whatever means necessary to rid MB Land of trolls.

The name-calling, the attacks, the accusations of being morally bankrupt simply because someone doesn't agree with their viewpoint and the attempts to dominate MB and do their best to control any controversial discussion with "The Truth". Often I agree with their views, but find their methods abhorrent.

Trolls are not the problem. MB regulars are, reasoning that they are protecting a Newbie from getting bad advice to justify rudeness, personal attacks and generally childish behavior - it is bullying and controlling, IMO). Newbies aren't brainless.

If someone sees a Newbie receiving what they consider to be bad advice, isn't it also an option simply to post an opposing view without the attack?

What I really find to be a shame is that it is exactly this type of behavior has led many posters who contributed very valuable information and guidance to choose to leave MB.