What a trip! It's like I (we) don't even know this person! H called DD, whose keys I took so H couldn't con her into letting him in, and said, "go home & get dinner, I'm going to be really, really late" UGH! On HIS nights, shouldn't HE get off work or whatever on time, and HE should feed them dinner? Of course I will feed them dinner, but they can't even get into the house! (I work 5 min away, and they meet him @the library)

Maybe he's taken that second job? (Not bloody likely)

Maybe he's still trying to get in the house before I get home? (Can't happen, now NOBODY has a key!)

I am constantly being amazed here!

So DD calls me & says she told H they can't come home cuz I won't be home, and he says, "OK well I don't have any food OR money"

Woe is him, I've closed the bank account. Boo-hoo.

UGH, so they're home now, I'll feed them dinner. Not sure if I'll let them go still.

Julie
If this is the agreed to night H gets to see kids then let them go.
You may have to-through your intermediary and let H know what you expect.

"On the nights you have kids I expect you to feed them".

The other part is 100% self pity that HE wants you to buy..(no money/food)
Remember who chose this living arrangement.

H doesn't need to be scolded and this doesn't need to provoke a fight.

Thats exactly what H is looking for.

Is there a set schedule with PU and Drop off times?

If there isn't I would nail the times down so you can plan accordingly.

Chris

Yes, the set times are on the set schedule. So far he's moved the set weekend & now picked them up tonight, fed by me, an hour late.

So much for a "schedule"!

I don't feel a need to punish him & I didn't - we have NC, so I can't! Anyway, of course it was a ploy to get my pity & it partly worked: I did, after all, miss an Al-Anon meeting so that my kids wouldn't go hungry! He's supposed to have them (DS, as DD isn't going) all weekend this weekend, and is dropping them off at 2 on Sat! SOoooooooo.......so far this is pretty much about what is convenient for H.

Julie,

Donuts to dollars he has $ for alcohol and a bowl though. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

He is clear on priorities...and the kids aren't up there.

Rethink the amount of time that they will be exposed to him.

Write down on the calendar when he is late, when he returns them early, and when he doesn't show at all.

That way, you will have some idea of what you have to work with IF...IF...it goes to divorce court and he files for custody...whole or partial.

It is ludicrous to think that it will be granted...but it sure doesn't stop the neglectful parent from trying.

JMHO
committed

Well, his "friends" bring the beer & we've had the dealer on payroll for...what, 11 years now? So yea, I'm sure he's been fronted enough to get him by. Heh

BTW, kids understand that if someone has a beer in their hand or is seen smoking anything other than a cigarette that I get a phone call.

Well folks, here we have it. DD talked to H when he brought them both back. Her plan was to say, "I need to talk & I'd like it if you'd just listen" I told her that might work best because if he gets to interject, he will probably twist it all around & make her feel guilty. She was out there 10 min before I called her & told her it's time to come in, for bed.

She said she didn't have much of a chance because as soon as she said what she did, he started talking. She's only 11, after all! He told her he's not coming back because he always does things for me but I never do anything for him. He told DD he is not an alcoholic, that he does have control, and that he never drives drunk - always gets picked up/dropped off. <<Enter Shock #62 of 2008>> He almost ALWAYS drives drunk! I cannot believe he lied to her! But, like DD told me, I've been "letting" him do this all these years. Smart cookie, my little girl.

He also said that even if he wanted to come back, he can't, because he has to pay for his apartment till the end of the year. Lovely.

Well I thought I'd update y'all. Seems you're all out bowling or drinking or something. Have a good night. A new low has just, once again, been reached. This is my life. My poor children, they didn't sign up for this.

What a disgusting, vile human being. He lied to my little girl. For 11 yrs he assured her it would all be OK, and he has now sunk to lying to a child.

I'm feeling sick. I think I'll call in tomorrow. I can file for this divorce on my own. It's time to drop this anvil of a W. I officially loathe it.

Yep, I had my role too, but no more.

Julie,

I jut got home from work. Let me read your thread. I just read the last two posts and see just standard, run of the mill A talk.

Hang on

Julie, everything he did/said to your daughter is VERY typical. Blame shifting, no accountability, lying to himself and others...classic alcoholic behavior. I am not at all trying to minimize how this must certaily hurt and anger you, but it is what they do. That is why alanon spends MUCH time on detachment. It's a SKILL that you have to learn, in fact, there have been threads around here helping people with this as it applies to wandering spouse.

It should be in the books and literature you received at meetings (I hope they had them for you!) It's on line too, but those little books can DO MUCH for your spirits!

I don't know what to tell you about his lack of keeping the schedfule until a lawyer tells you what to do. But committed said everything I would have said to you...If it's his night, give it to him and WRITE IT DOWN! My lawyer told me to write everything down in a spiral notebook. We didn't have a PC back then but I have read other attys to say don't do it there. It's weaker in court because you can so easily edit. A spiral notebook where you keep notes of times, date, things he said. Trust me, if you ever have to battle custody issues or show his attitude about the kids, etc you will be glad you did it.

He's playing the blame game, classic!

Nesre, thank you for the link. I appreciate it. Also thank you so much for sharing your persoal history. I am sure that it was hard to do and I appreciate it. I told me A once, when we were working the steps, "You want me to forgive you for the things you did, but you don't even remember it!"

Take a breather Julie, THINK. Don't act out of emotion right now.

We're all still here pulling for you

He told DD he is not an alcoholic, that he does have control, and that he never drives drunk - always gets picked up/dropped off. <<Enter Shock #62 of 2008>> He almost ALWAYS drives drunk!

Which is the EXACT reason that the children should NEVER be with him overnight.

I am telling you...you can arrange for pickups and drop offs at the police station if so inclined. He drives up there drunk at anytime and he is gonna have to answer to someone.

I truly fear that something awful is gonna happen to your children Julie when they are with him. He CANNOT parent while he loves the bottle and the MJ more than them. He let you know that when he left the house. He CHOSE , and unfortunately he didn't make the choice that you wanted.

Nonetheless, it was a choice. He is telling you that he chooses to drink and smoke illegal drugs above the marriage and being a parent to your children. As hateful as it seems to keep the kids from him...it might be the best thing for them in the long run. He has been protected from the consequences of his actions so long that he most likely feels invincible. He is going to have to hit hard when he crashes and you do not want those children with him when it does happen.

Seriously think about changing that PlanB letter to not include anything about parenting time. It might be the catalyst that he needs to set this right.

I think that Mel had posted about "loss" and the alcoholic...he has to "lose" something to finally get it.

JMHO
committed

Thanks committed! This is one of the primary reasons I keep pesting and nagging about the lawyer. I had a mental list of things to suggest when that meeting takes place and that is top of the list!

Julie

So sorry for how it went last night.

H Putting DD into that position is vile and hurtful. As SOT1961 said-it is what alcoholics do. The “blame game” classic. Another version is the “shame and blame game” Your Al-Anon group can surely explain it to you or maybe you have already played it.

DETACHMENT IS THE GREATEST PRESENT YOU CAN LEARN FOR YOURSELF. It takes time and practice but will be the most effective survival tool you will ever have. It is the only way to win or at least keep your piece of mind at either of the two games mentioned above.
IT IS ABOUT THE ONLY WAY POSSIBLE TO KEEP FROM GETTING DRAGGED INTO THE FOG (distortion/exaggeration) WITH THE ALCOHOLIC..ITS what PLAN A is about in an A.

All DD needed to know is he loves her and the reassurance this has nothing to do with her. It was just wrong to lay adult stuff like this on a young child.

Question:
You have an intermediary-Why did H call DD to reset the schedule? I am not saying this is right or wrong but IMO- shouldn’t this go through the intermediary? Then to You? You are the adult.
Isn’t part of the PBL to remove the easy access to the W or family by WW/ADDICT?
VETS COMMENTS?

Commited is right
He has been protected from the consequences of his actions so long that he most likely feels invincible. He is going to have to hit hard when he crashes and you do not want those children with him when it does happen.


and H is reinforcing how he feels about M and relationship w/kids even further with changing schedule twice and dragging DD into grown up stuff/lying.
Actions speak way louder than words

As long as H uses a/d ---a/d will always win. Much the same if a WW won’t quit an A after a good PLAN A. Then PB needs to be used.
.
Tighten up the PBL-Whats H gonna do? Tighten up or leave out visitation with kids. Do you really believe He will get a lawyer?
H probably does not want a lawyer at this point b/c of child support but.............

COULDN’T THIS TRIGGER A CUSTODY STUDY????
Not sure of your state laws-
Would this be to JULIE AND KIDS benefit.?

A



LAWYER



COULD



TELL


YOU

JMO-H’s head may already be starting to spin with how am I gonna get out of this one?

Has Julie always cleaned up after H’s messes and H expects the same this time?

Consequences for H’s choices would be new and different.


Chris


FWH 49 –1986 Revenge A
Went thru A/CD treatment in 1986-Stayed sober-Started Recovery in 2002
Using the MB principles to help both my recoverys
DS 24
DD 14
Married 25 yrs
WW 43
EA/PA –1985/1986 A Ended after 1 ½ yr seperation-NC w/OM for 4 months-
Mutual agreement to get back together
Went thru A/CD treatment in 1989
EA/PA 2004?—10/2006?
Active (1999) Alcoholic after 10 yrs sober
Went thru A/CD rehab 12/2006-Sober and miserable most days
May still be EA?-OM lives close by
M is still most days a mess
Still Trying to put it back together

Julie--

I have been following your thread, and also have a H that has had 3 EAs in the past-- and I believe is an alcoholic. Some of the things you have written break my heart.

In the interest of full disclosure, I did also have an A myself (one of his three EAs would technically be considered a "revenge A"-- I suppose-- the other two were prior to mine, and I didn't find out about them until after mine). The EA part of mine lasted about a year, and the physical part only happened once, and we never actually slept together.

I am still trying to learn. Haven't gone to ala-non yet. Marriage is a mess. I honestly think some days it may not survive this mess. The As are enough to deal with, his drinking only makes it worse. He plays the classic blame games-- everything is my fault, I made him this way, etc.

I don't have any children, thankgod. And I really feel for yours-- but you are being a great mother protecting them.

Just wanted to say that I've been following along. I'm still trying here, stuck in some weird mode because I'm plan A'ing HIM... even tho we've both had A's and he's the alcoholic... he's plan FU... but he's taking advantage of me and drinking a lot (in addition to taking some vicodin)... he wants to give up on us... doesn't know if he wants this marriage... and all the problems in it are my fault. I think we could focus more clearly and decide on this marriage bit if he'd stay sober occasionally.

Like your hubby-- mine also drives a lot when he shouldn't. I'm waiting for the day I get the call from jail. And the funny thing is-- he has a profession where if he gets caught with a DUI his career is pretty much over. (He's actually very successful). But he still drinks... even that isn't enough for him to stop at least the drinking and driving part...

He's still very much in denial that he even HAS a problem. He thinks it is perfectly normal to come home from work and drink 6-8 beers before bedtime and then become this angry mean Mr. Hyde person (was that the mean guy?)

He had issues with drinking prior to my A though... although, I will admit this situation has considerably made the problem worse.

Stay strong. I am learning from you. I need to get to ala-non, but I am a little scared. And a little scared on how he'll react. He still denies he has a problem... or that he needs any help.

RIM

REM

Just caught your post
There are online meetings and I would post the address if you like.
I don’t know if they are as good as F2F meetings but may help.

Plan A'ing an addict is rewarding "bad behavior"

Al-Anon will teach you the skills it takes to be in a relationship specifically with an active addict.

MB's principles usually doesn't work until the addict is in recovery.

In recovery the addict hopefully develops the empathy required to be in a healthy relationship.

Dr Harley wrote
When an alcoholic is married to a loving and caring spouse, the spouse's love and care is sucked in like a black hole. It drains the caring spouse of everything they have, leaving him or her not only exhausted, but also having failed to meet their sick spouse's needs. In these cases, the non-alcoholic spouse must emotionally detach themselves or becomes emotionally destroyed

Chris

Hey everyone, thanks for keeping this alive. I've been in bed literally ALL DAY and am heading back shortly - I'm so cold but I'm sweating, can't eat, sore throat...

Anyhoo, unfortunately I took the day off but didn't go or call ANYBODY. We'll see what tomorrow brings.

I'm interested to see if H gives me money this weekend. If not, it'll be the extra push I need to get the atty.

FYI, I actually "put DD in an adult situation" and if H would have just kept his mouth shut as she asked, it would have been fine. She made a decision & wanted to share it w/him. I offered for her to have intermediary tell H she doesn't want to do over-nites w/him, but she wanted to do it on her own. I let her have that.

Good point too about the schedule conflicts & calling DD. I'll have intermediary tell him it ALL needs to go thru her, not the kids. That's all I can think of for now.

RIM, I've been keeping up w/you too, weren't you quite the pot head yourself? (No offense) I know what you're saying when you say you're scared to go to Al-Anon, I was too, and H kinda laughed at me. The first meeting is the hardest, believe that. I think you'll see after the first though, that for reasons you may not even fully understand, you're going to want to go back.

Thank you Chris, and yes, I would appreciate the link.

It does seem he is unable to have any empathy. Please look at my most recent post on my thread from last night and today (I don't know how to do the fancy link thing... sorry, you'll have to dig it out, its the only thread by me, and shold still be on the first page).

He just this past weekend lied to me about vicodin... and then when I found it (and his lies) and took it off of him, he then stole it back from me. I don't know what he's done with it now. I haven't confronted him on any of this yet.

I guess part of my problem... which is outlined on my thread, is I am not sure if he is actually an alcoholic or not. I know he drives when he shouldn't. I know he drinks an awful lot-- or what I think is an awful lot. Just about daily. More often then not. And some evenings can have 6-8 drinks. He's not the David Hasselhoff, crawling on the floor burbling weird stuff drunk... he's usually completely conscious, and completely lucid (or appears so). But.. with each drink, his propensity to explode in anger and be very mean, demeaning, demoralizing person increases. It doesn't happen everytime he drinks. Only sometimes. But-- since my A, I'd say more often than not (although it certainly happened before my A too... I can go into specific instances, but it would only belabor the point... the point is, there were incidents before the A). Its like now he has to drink... not to the point of oblivion... but just to a point where he can "function" anymore-- and deal with life. He uses it to run from his problems rather than confront them. The amount he drinks DIRECTLY corresponds to how upset he happens to be. He gets upset, he needs a drink to deal with it. And now he's got his hands on vicodin from a dear "friend" (see my thread).

And he's in denial... a lot of it. And he's constantly (both before my A and after) being a very, very mean person... and then later on completely ignoring it... as if it never happened.

He lied to me about the vicodin... and then STOLE it back off of me... and hasn't said A WORD about it yet. Not a word. As you can see on my thread, I am really not sure what to do about it. This kinda came as a shock for me because I thought both he and us were somewhat healing recently.

Please see my thread... you don't have to see the whole thing, really just focus on probably the last 2 pages of it to get the idea. But the entire thread is speckled with his issues and problems with alcohol and anger management and the toll it has taken on our relationship...

Thanks for the reply Chris, and I'd appreciate that link.

RIM

And Julie-- no the pot head wasn't me. I've only tried pot once in my life, actually, haha. I'm pretty squeeky clean :-).

RIM

RIM, of course I don't know if your husband is an A or not, but your description of him is perfectly classic. There are different groups that define this deferently but basically it comes down to whether or not your life is being controlled with alcohol. A lot of people think they have to be a falling down drunk, drinking a bottle out of the bag on the curb to be an alcohlic. Absolutely false! In meetings there are doctors, lawyers, teachers, you name it. Alcohol does not care one bit about what title, degree or other successes hang on your wall.


Some of the questions are, do you take greater and greater risks to continue drinking (loss of career, driving drunk, driving kids drunk or buzzed, etc)

Whenever a newcomer arrives, we all remember our first night. It is so hard. I pretended to go to my first couple. I drove there, sat in the parking lot, drove around the block again...just found it to be the hardest door to walk through. When you finally go in, remember that every single person greeting you has been there and is probably remembering it too. After that, it gets so much easier and you will wonder what you ever were afraid of. For me, part of it was actually being willing to go outside my house and say to someone that my H was an A. Afterall, we co-dependents are SO good and covering and hiding for our alcholics (and in the process we are aiding and abetting).

We need Mel here about your plan A. You just CANNOT plan A an alcoholic!!!

Julie I am sorry that you are sick and I am sure you are probably worried about the boss on that one. I do hope you feel better tomorrow.

You commented about hoping your H puts money in the account. Your money situation is also on my list when you can get to a lawyer. I am NOT bugging you...I know were sick! I am hoping that a lawyer will be able to get the visitation squared away (with the law, not a plan B letter, prohibit him from EVER driving under the influence with the kid (maybe not letting him be alone with them? and a court order to make payments. This should give you much more security and peace and really tighten things up for him.

Just my thoughts. Get well

I'm going to send intermediary an email. It will say:

I need to know when/where H is planning to pick up DS today.
I need money.

Those are the only 2 things that come to mind/need clarifying right now. SOT, no, I'm not waiting to see if H puts money in the bank acct - he can't, it's closed. He'll have to actually get the cash to me and yes, I'm waiting to see if he will...so maybe I shouldn't have intermediary ask about money just yet.

On the attorney, do you think I should give intermediary/H the heads-up? Or should it be a surprise? Probably surprise, since I don't know for sure I can afford such a service right now, and I can't be issuing empty threats.