I've noticed that it isn't uncommon for a spouse to cheat while there are young children (unborn to 6 years of age) in the family home. Some cheaters are also getting the BS pregnant while cheating.


How should BS's approach recovery with a WS when these are the conditions? What does Dr Harley think of this?

I mean, it's one thing to say an affair can happen when needs aren't being met and LB's are there.


But, it's not the job of little children and babies to meet the parents needs. Ummm, it seems that the WS who has an affair when there are young children to be cared for, or an unborn baby that could get a disease via STD, has some issues other than marital problems. With very young children, especially if there is a large # of them, a parent should understand that his or her needs will be placed on the back-burner for awhile. There's a lot of time, effort, and energy to be devoted to little ones.

An adult may have marital problems, but how do psychologists reason a parent betraying his/her children? And it's a betrayal because the wayward parent spends his or her energies on someone else, vs applying it to nurturing the M, BS and children. It's almost as if cheating under these conditions is an act of passive-aggressive behavior toward the children themselves.


(And I have 7 kiddos, so I can say from experience, that infidelity with small kids in the family unit *is* a direct betrayal of those children too.)


Do MB principles fully apply in this case? Do they need to be modified? How should they be modified, if need be?


Can someone who has the DR's ear ask him to address this issue, either here or in an article?

He's not currently taking phone calls for the radio show and this is serious and should be discussed. Maybe marriages that have pregnancy, newborns, and at least very young children in the picture need some help beyond MB when infidelity is an issue.

Jewel

I'm keeping an eye on this thread. Thanks.

RMJ -- I think you can search this site for more info on this. There is also a Pregnancy/Other Child board on this forum, though I believe that is for those whose WS have become pregnant by or impregnated the OP.

But I think you're talking about infidelity where the WS has young children. Off the top of my head, I don't believe the Harleys treat this any differently as far as following Plan A and Plan B, etc., though I can certainly understand how most people would see cheating on a pregnant partner or one with young children as a particularly heinous form of cheating.

What you describe sounds much like serial cheating, and -- as with all the other forms -- you can try the plans and see if it helps. But no one here will try to coerce a BS into staying when life with the WS has become intolerable, and I don't think the Harleys would, either.

Hope this helps a bit.
Mulan

RMJ, marriages that have children are not treated any differently than those that DON'T when it comes to meeting each others needs. It is in your childrens best interest for their parents to cultivate a GREAT MARRIAGE. Dr. Harley recommends LOTS of nights out with babysitters to get in your 15 hours per week.

Mulan,
Been looking for you to say thanks for the passive/aggressive link. My WH is definitely one in the B group. Narcissistic.
I'll have to look you up again tomorrow to chat more about handling that personality disorder, as it is time for bed.
ok,back to the pg/infidelity thread.

No, they shouldn't understand or EVER ACCEPT any such thing. This is the kind of thinking that leads to affairs, RMJ. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> It is in those childrens BEST INTEREST to have a family that is led by 2 happy, content parents in a SECURE MARRIAGE.


BINGO!! And it is most often because of: "With very young children, especially if there is a large # of them, a parent should understand that his or her needs will be placed on the back-burner for awhile."

Have you read any of the Harley books about adultery or the dynamics of a happy marriage?

Melody,

I'm so, so glad you responded to this post!

I totally agree that it's in the children's best interest for their parent's to have a great M. I think 15 hours a week together is a wonderful. But it isn't always feasible.

I don't think I got what I was trying to say across. I'm seeing so many women here, that are pregnant or have very young children (some a handful of young children). Their H's willingly made those children with their wives.

What is the psychology of a spouse who creates that situation and betrays the M, spouse, and kids, plus gives the circumstances of the family (ie not attracted to pregnant wife because of weight gain, wife not being virgin tight because she's had a large # of children in a very short time, feeling neglected during times of periodic abstinence when it was the WS wanting to practice it in the 1st place in order to avoid pregnancy, mom spending to much time with colicky baby, or nurturing, cooking, and cleaning up after kids)

I understand the idea of a babysitter, but not all families can afford that. Is Dr Harley saying not to have a large # of kids in a short period of time if lack of $$$ is a factor? What about a couple who plan for one child and end up with twins or more?



I know you don't like to blame infidelity on "issues" within the WS, but in the situation I mentioned, it seems as if it is. These are adults making babies, not clueless teens.

(And no offense to those who ever happened to be teen parents. I've known too many teens who had babies that had more sense than many adults.)

RMJ, Dr. Harley says to do what it takes to get in that 15 hours of romantic time a week! He says to MAKE IT FEASIBLE! He says to do what it takes to make it happen.

The reason that many affairs happen when children come is because one of the spouses feels neglected. So, it is very important to make SURE that does not happen.

So if a parent needs sleep, he or she should sleep before meeting the child's needs?
What about SF when there's a colicky baby or a sick child? These are instances when the child comes before the parent.

Heck, I have 7 kids. The 1st six were born in the 1st 10 years of M. The last little one was born in 06. He got sick so much this past year with colds/fever/ etc that his shots had to be postponed. Plus, he passed it to the others.

So in Feb, March, April, May, and July of last year, I literally had 3 weeks straight per month of sick kids as they passed it from one to another. I can say, Dh and I didn't get anywhere near 15 hours of alone time a week.

Thankfully, my older kids watched their younger sibs so we could have time together.

It's this type of sacrifice that comes with territory of choosing to have that # of children under the roof at the same time.

That's what I'm trying to convey.
With a large # of small kids, sometimes getting to the bathroom can be a challenge.

I agree with you MamaJewel, but am watching Melody do her stuff. My husband had 6 kids when we married, and I had 2. I ended up with the majority of their care. Now I realize that THAT was a mistake.

But truthfully there wasn't a lot of time for ANYTHING.

Hi RMJ
Well this happened to me and I know exactly why although it isn't really in accordance with MB to look backwards as the idea is to make the present a good place to be as the past cannot be changed!

My H was ignored and neglected as a child although I did not know this until very recently as he had blanked out his childhood and never spoke about it. His family kept it secret.

So when our first, loved, wanted and waited for child was born he was totally traumatised as it brought back all the feelings of being pushed out from his childhood and he could not make the adjustment from couple to family.

I happened to be the family breadwinner but also had to take 100% of childcare and the house while he competed endlessly with our newborn child for my attention.

So guess who won that battle?

So his top EN at the time (attention) was not met by me and my top EN at the time (family commitment) was not met by him.

But my top EN was partly met by my child! His was met by . . well you can guess the rest of the story.

RMJ, you can neglect your marriage to your hearts content and place his needs way down on the priority list. It is a free country and you can do what you want. You can tell him to go to he11 if you want and come back in 10 years. But you have to also be prepared to accept the probable outcome of such treatment.

What will most likely happen is that you both will fall out of love. And when you fall out of love, one or both of you could be vulnerable to an affair.

Like you pointed out in your first post: "I've noticed that it isn't uncommon for a spouse to cheat while there are young children (unborn to 6 years of age) in the family home."

That is what can happen when a spouses needs are neglected.

An affair is about the WORST THING that can happen to an individual in his lifetime. Knowing what I know today, I would be willing to do what it takes to PREVENT THAT. But that is just me. If you don't WANT to do anything to prevent it, you don't have to!

It's a good thing to point this out.

My H and I are 5 yrs from dday, and him feeling neglected was part of his reasoning to stray. I was doing my best to "make it good" with the circumstances we had at the time...lotsa kids/little $$. I'd plan date nights with him...we'd make love under the stars in the back yard (we could discreetly where we lived), I'd dress up, we'd sip wine, for romantic eves (not always sex) at home after the kids were in bed.

However, looking back, he says he didn't know how to communicate his needs. His inability to effectively communicate what he wanted to me was part of his problem. The other was FOO issues which he's been working to overcome.

I found MB shortly after dday and found it soooo helpful in guiding me to overcome several co-dependency and FOO challenges I had myself. In making me a better W, he became a better H. It made me aware of his heart and how to care for it.

This site has actually helped me on my journey of self-actualization. Gotta love Maslow! Oh, I mean Dr Harley!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

RMJ, have you read His Needs, Her Needs and Fall in Love, Stay in Love? They are both excellent books that address your questions very well! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

So, in your situation the trauma that your H suffered through childhood was a contributing factor, according to your reply.

In your case, your H didn't even recognize the EN for attention because the trauma made it unrecognizable?
Would his inability to define his EN make the M susceptible to an A regardless of how perfect a wife you had been?

I think this is a question that women who have been/or are dealing with these situations seem to have. Could there be something more with the WS than just the MB principles not being applied.


With your spouse and with mine, it was obvious that we wouldn't have been able to meet our H's top needs, because our H's couldn't define them.

I created this post because of my past circumstances. I know how much MB helped my M, but I wasn't sure if the types of situations I mentioned here could be out of MB's range when it comes to the WS personally. I don't want to give advice based on my experience if someone's situation should be addressed outside of MB.

SMJ, most ppl CAN define their needs when they take the EN questionaire and understand the definition of EN. Most can't define them until they understand what they are. Most may not articulate them in the past, for whatever reasons, but that does not mean that MB principles don't apply. They DO apply.

The cases that can't be helped by Marriage Builders are marriages where there is a narcotic/alcohol addiction. The addiction must be resolved first because it is impossible to meet the needs of an active addict.

I haven't read these. But I re-read the articles here a lot. And I get the monthly e-mail from the Harley's.

In my situation, I had to guess some of my H's EN's. His answers didn't jive with the reality of our situation. So I had to follow my intuition and feel out what he was saying out of his mouth vs what he wrote on paper. I could hear the disconnect in his thinking process.

I would go on to learn that SF was his top need. As well as admiration. He didn't list SF at all. He wrote DS as a top need. I was stunned since on dday, the house was clean and the kids were clean. And he hadn't contributed to that at all. I had done that work.

Over the last 5 years, my H has been learning that he can be honest with himself. That he doesn't have to have everything black and white, because there are gray areas in life. And I see how he's opened up to me and the kids(yeah).


5 years, Mel! I worked my [censored] off the 1st 2 1/2 so my H could get comfortable with himself enough to try to develop a true intimate M with me. And he's still working on the O & H and not breaking the plans we make through POJA.

I want to do more than read the books, I'd want to do a MB weekend sometime this year. H knows I have my sights set on it! At this point, we figure why settle for anything less. The M deserves what will give it the most momentum.

You would love the MB weekend, RMJ! It is well worth the money and the Harleys are wonderful people.

Like your H, I don't think mine articulated or understood his top needs well enough to convey them accurately to me. What I did was try different things with him and gauge his reaction. He always told me that SF was his top need, however, when I started going with him on motorcycle rides, his feelings for me became PASSIONATE. He LOVES it when I go with him. I was amazed at the difference. But he had never indicated in any of his questionaires that RC was his top need!

So, its not a perfect science, but if you keep trying different things, you will hit on the right combination even if your spouse isn't that great at articulating his needs.

I know it's common for a WH to cheat on his pregnant wife.

I wonder how common it is for an already pregnant wife to cheat on her husband? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Um...excuse me, but I must point something out here.

I am the BS. I have 5 kids, had 4 when the affair started and got pregnant during.

I never told my WS that I didn't have time for him!!! He works and then runs his own business at night. I was begging for together time, whatever it took...I wanted him to spend more time with me and my family. He was the one saying, "I gotta go!"

Yes, money is tight! I can't work with my husband anymore in the evenings because we have 5 KIDS to take care of. You want to come watch them so I get 15 hours of time with my husband?


My needs were placed on a back burner and I didn't have an affair. It may be partially about needs...but when your WS goes looking for them elsewhere when you are perfectly happy to fill them...it is a huge betrayal to the wife/mother and children alike.

I'm glad my children are too little to understand this. I'm having trouble and I'm the adult.