I've noticed that it isn't uncommon for a spouse to cheat while there are young children (unborn to 6 years of age) in the family home. Some cheaters are also getting the BS pregnant while cheating.


How should BS's approach recovery with a WS when these are the conditions? What does Dr Harley think of this?

I mean, it's one thing to say an affair can happen when needs aren't being met and LB's are there.


But, it's not the job of little children and babies to meet the parents needs. Ummm, it seems that the WS who has an affair when there are young children to be cared for, or an unborn baby that could get a disease via STD, has some issues other than marital problems. With very young children, especially if there is a large # of them, a parent should understand that his or her needs will be placed on the back-burner for awhile. There's a lot of time, effort, and energy to be devoted to little ones.

An adult may have marital problems, but how do psychologists reason a parent betraying his/her children? And it's a betrayal because the wayward parent spends his or her energies on someone else, vs applying it to nurturing the M, BS and children. It's almost as if cheating under these conditions is an act of passive-aggressive behavior toward the children themselves.


(And I have 7 kiddos, so I can say from experience, that infidelity with small kids in the family unit *is* a direct betrayal of those children too.)


Do MB principles fully apply in this case? Do they need to be modified? How should they be modified, if need be?


Can someone who has the DR's ear ask him to address this issue, either here or in an article?

He's not currently taking phone calls for the radio show and this is serious and should be discussed. Maybe marriages that have pregnancy, newborns, and at least very young children in the picture need some help beyond MB when infidelity is an issue.

Jewel

I'm keeping an eye on this thread. Thanks.

RMJ -- I think you can search this site for more info on this. There is also a Pregnancy/Other Child board on this forum, though I believe that is for those whose WS have become pregnant by or impregnated the OP.

But I think you're talking about infidelity where the WS has young children. Off the top of my head, I don't believe the Harleys treat this any differently as far as following Plan A and Plan B, etc., though I can certainly understand how most people would see cheating on a pregnant partner or one with young children as a particularly heinous form of cheating.

What you describe sounds much like serial cheating, and -- as with all the other forms -- you can try the plans and see if it helps. But no one here will try to coerce a BS into staying when life with the WS has become intolerable, and I don't think the Harleys would, either.

Hope this helps a bit.
Mulan

RMJ, marriages that have children are not treated any differently than those that DON'T when it comes to meeting each others needs. It is in your childrens best interest for their parents to cultivate a GREAT MARRIAGE. Dr. Harley recommends LOTS of nights out with babysitters to get in your 15 hours per week.

Mulan,
Been looking for you to say thanks for the passive/aggressive link. My WH is definitely one in the B group. Narcissistic.
I'll have to look you up again tomorrow to chat more about handling that personality disorder, as it is time for bed.
ok,back to the pg/infidelity thread.

No, they shouldn't understand or EVER ACCEPT any such thing. This is the kind of thinking that leads to affairs, RMJ. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> It is in those childrens BEST INTEREST to have a family that is led by 2 happy, content parents in a SECURE MARRIAGE.


BINGO!! And it is most often because of: "With very young children, especially if there is a large # of them, a parent should understand that his or her needs will be placed on the back-burner for awhile."

Have you read any of the Harley books about adultery or the dynamics of a happy marriage?

Melody,

I'm so, so glad you responded to this post!

I totally agree that it's in the children's best interest for their parent's to have a great M. I think 15 hours a week together is a wonderful. But it isn't always feasible.

I don't think I got what I was trying to say across. I'm seeing so many women here, that are pregnant or have very young children (some a handful of young children). Their H's willingly made those children with their wives.

What is the psychology of a spouse who creates that situation and betrays the M, spouse, and kids, plus gives the circumstances of the family (ie not attracted to pregnant wife because of weight gain, wife not being virgin tight because she's had a large # of children in a very short time, feeling neglected during times of periodic abstinence when it was the WS wanting to practice it in the 1st place in order to avoid pregnancy, mom spending to much time with colicky baby, or nurturing, cooking, and cleaning up after kids)

I understand the idea of a babysitter, but not all families can afford that. Is Dr Harley saying not to have a large # of kids in a short period of time if lack of $$$ is a factor? What about a couple who plan for one child and end up with twins or more?



I know you don't like to blame infidelity on "issues" within the WS, but in the situation I mentioned, it seems as if it is. These are adults making babies, not clueless teens.

(And no offense to those who ever happened to be teen parents. I've known too many teens who had babies that had more sense than many adults.)

RMJ, Dr. Harley says to do what it takes to get in that 15 hours of romantic time a week! He says to MAKE IT FEASIBLE! He says to do what it takes to make it happen.

The reason that many affairs happen when children come is because one of the spouses feels neglected. So, it is very important to make SURE that does not happen.

So if a parent needs sleep, he or she should sleep before meeting the child's needs?
What about SF when there's a colicky baby or a sick child? These are instances when the child comes before the parent.

Heck, I have 7 kids. The 1st six were born in the 1st 10 years of M. The last little one was born in 06. He got sick so much this past year with colds/fever/ etc that his shots had to be postponed. Plus, he passed it to the others.

So in Feb, March, April, May, and July of last year, I literally had 3 weeks straight per month of sick kids as they passed it from one to another. I can say, Dh and I didn't get anywhere near 15 hours of alone time a week.

Thankfully, my older kids watched their younger sibs so we could have time together.

It's this type of sacrifice that comes with territory of choosing to have that # of children under the roof at the same time.

That's what I'm trying to convey.
With a large # of small kids, sometimes getting to the bathroom can be a challenge.

I agree with you MamaJewel, but am watching Melody do her stuff. My husband had 6 kids when we married, and I had 2. I ended up with the majority of their care. Now I realize that THAT was a mistake.

But truthfully there wasn't a lot of time for ANYTHING.

Hi RMJ
Well this happened to me and I know exactly why although it isn't really in accordance with MB to look backwards as the idea is to make the present a good place to be as the past cannot be changed!

My H was ignored and neglected as a child although I did not know this until very recently as he had blanked out his childhood and never spoke about it. His family kept it secret.

So when our first, loved, wanted and waited for child was born he was totally traumatised as it brought back all the feelings of being pushed out from his childhood and he could not make the adjustment from couple to family.

I happened to be the family breadwinner but also had to take 100% of childcare and the house while he competed endlessly with our newborn child for my attention.

So guess who won that battle?

So his top EN at the time (attention) was not met by me and my top EN at the time (family commitment) was not met by him.

But my top EN was partly met by my child! His was met by . . well you can guess the rest of the story.

RMJ, you can neglect your marriage to your hearts content and place his needs way down on the priority list. It is a free country and you can do what you want. You can tell him to go to he11 if you want and come back in 10 years. But you have to also be prepared to accept the probable outcome of such treatment.

What will most likely happen is that you both will fall out of love. And when you fall out of love, one or both of you could be vulnerable to an affair.

Like you pointed out in your first post: "I've noticed that it isn't uncommon for a spouse to cheat while there are young children (unborn to 6 years of age) in the family home."

That is what can happen when a spouses needs are neglected.

An affair is about the WORST THING that can happen to an individual in his lifetime. Knowing what I know today, I would be willing to do what it takes to PREVENT THAT. But that is just me. If you don't WANT to do anything to prevent it, you don't have to!

It's a good thing to point this out.

My H and I are 5 yrs from dday, and him feeling neglected was part of his reasoning to stray. I was doing my best to "make it good" with the circumstances we had at the time...lotsa kids/little $$. I'd plan date nights with him...we'd make love under the stars in the back yard (we could discreetly where we lived), I'd dress up, we'd sip wine, for romantic eves (not always sex) at home after the kids were in bed.

However, looking back, he says he didn't know how to communicate his needs. His inability to effectively communicate what he wanted to me was part of his problem. The other was FOO issues which he's been working to overcome.

I found MB shortly after dday and found it soooo helpful in guiding me to overcome several co-dependency and FOO challenges I had myself. In making me a better W, he became a better H. It made me aware of his heart and how to care for it.

This site has actually helped me on my journey of self-actualization. Gotta love Maslow! Oh, I mean Dr Harley!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

RMJ, have you read His Needs, Her Needs and Fall in Love, Stay in Love? They are both excellent books that address your questions very well! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

So, in your situation the trauma that your H suffered through childhood was a contributing factor, according to your reply.

In your case, your H didn't even recognize the EN for attention because the trauma made it unrecognizable?
Would his inability to define his EN make the M susceptible to an A regardless of how perfect a wife you had been?

I think this is a question that women who have been/or are dealing with these situations seem to have. Could there be something more with the WS than just the MB principles not being applied.


With your spouse and with mine, it was obvious that we wouldn't have been able to meet our H's top needs, because our H's couldn't define them.

I created this post because of my past circumstances. I know how much MB helped my M, but I wasn't sure if the types of situations I mentioned here could be out of MB's range when it comes to the WS personally. I don't want to give advice based on my experience if someone's situation should be addressed outside of MB.

SMJ, most ppl CAN define their needs when they take the EN questionaire and understand the definition of EN. Most can't define them until they understand what they are. Most may not articulate them in the past, for whatever reasons, but that does not mean that MB principles don't apply. They DO apply.

The cases that can't be helped by Marriage Builders are marriages where there is a narcotic/alcohol addiction. The addiction must be resolved first because it is impossible to meet the needs of an active addict.

I haven't read these. But I re-read the articles here a lot. And I get the monthly e-mail from the Harley's.

In my situation, I had to guess some of my H's EN's. His answers didn't jive with the reality of our situation. So I had to follow my intuition and feel out what he was saying out of his mouth vs what he wrote on paper. I could hear the disconnect in his thinking process.

I would go on to learn that SF was his top need. As well as admiration. He didn't list SF at all. He wrote DS as a top need. I was stunned since on dday, the house was clean and the kids were clean. And he hadn't contributed to that at all. I had done that work.

Over the last 5 years, my H has been learning that he can be honest with himself. That he doesn't have to have everything black and white, because there are gray areas in life. And I see how he's opened up to me and the kids(yeah).


5 years, Mel! I worked my [censored] off the 1st 2 1/2 so my H could get comfortable with himself enough to try to develop a true intimate M with me. And he's still working on the O & H and not breaking the plans we make through POJA.

I want to do more than read the books, I'd want to do a MB weekend sometime this year. H knows I have my sights set on it! At this point, we figure why settle for anything less. The M deserves what will give it the most momentum.

You would love the MB weekend, RMJ! It is well worth the money and the Harleys are wonderful people.

Like your H, I don't think mine articulated or understood his top needs well enough to convey them accurately to me. What I did was try different things with him and gauge his reaction. He always told me that SF was his top need, however, when I started going with him on motorcycle rides, his feelings for me became PASSIONATE. He LOVES it when I go with him. I was amazed at the difference. But he had never indicated in any of his questionaires that RC was his top need!

So, its not a perfect science, but if you keep trying different things, you will hit on the right combination even if your spouse isn't that great at articulating his needs.

I know it's common for a WH to cheat on his pregnant wife.

I wonder how common it is for an already pregnant wife to cheat on her husband? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Um...excuse me, but I must point something out here.

I am the BS. I have 5 kids, had 4 when the affair started and got pregnant during.

I never told my WS that I didn't have time for him!!! He works and then runs his own business at night. I was begging for together time, whatever it took...I wanted him to spend more time with me and my family. He was the one saying, "I gotta go!"

Yes, money is tight! I can't work with my husband anymore in the evenings because we have 5 KIDS to take care of. You want to come watch them so I get 15 hours of time with my husband?


My needs were placed on a back burner and I didn't have an affair. It may be partially about needs...but when your WS goes looking for them elsewhere when you are perfectly happy to fill them...it is a huge betrayal to the wife/mother and children alike.

I'm glad my children are too little to understand this. I'm having trouble and I'm the adult.

So, the WS was neglected. Awwww...poor baby. Many times the BS feels neglected, too. Basically, what you are saying, is neglect the children in order to give an ADULT time, who should have the mental capability to understand.

I'm sorry if that sounds harsh, but these are adults here. Who know right from wrong and have mouths to tell their spouse if they are feeling neglected. If my WS had started screaming at 2 AM like my newborn does, I would have filled his needs!!!

Hi RMJ
I think most of us have issues from our childhood of one kind or another. It is these issues that create our EN rankings. My view is that MB can be used very effectively even if just to talk about what cannot be done for the time being but most of us sadly are not aware of the principles until the wheels have fallen off.

In the case of my H, his biggest problem was that his father was a serial adulterer openly for many years with his mother's apparent acceptance. So this was the model he turned to when things got difficult at home. And because the As were all kept secret, I knew something was wrong but did not know what.

MB principles could have helped by affair proofing the marriage.

Indeed, his family could have helped too by letting me know but they chose not to tell me. I was clueless having been reared in a very committed marriage.

May they rot for that.

RMJ and others,

I hate getting sucked into these things but as you see I cannot resist. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I think Mel is dead on, and I think if you read Dr. H's work you will see the logic of this. HOWEVER, I think a very important point is being missed and perhaps it is because most of you have not been on this site as long as Mel and I.

You would be surprised at the number of women that have affairs right after they have children. I was amazed.

I think what is not considered enough is that pregnancy and having children is a huge stressor for both the H and the W. One would think it would be a time to come together, but as has been discussed it is not for some.

The issues are: time, focus, energy, and stress.

I can speak as a male who did want children, that my first thoughts when my W told me she was expecting was: How am I going to take care of all of them financially? How can I provide what I need to for this child? And yes, I did slip down the "to do" list as each child arrived. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

I did not have an affair, but years into it I was beginning to have the concept of divorce slip into my mind. I found MB and changed my view of many things.

The point: pregnancy and young children stress a marriage.

As Mel pointed out, the best thing you can do for your children is take care of your spouse. In the long run they don't recall who took care of them when they were young and sick and even who fed them when they were young, or changed their diapers. But, they do remember their parents, and they learn from the marriage they see as they grow, and they take with them those lessons.

I will end this by saying when I came here I wasn't surprised to find that men had affairs while their W's were pregnant or had just delivered. I was surprised that so many women had affairs while pregnant or within a couple years of having children.

So I am saying it seems to me it comes down to what Mel has said: focus, time, loving, Oh! and an occasional "thank you" works miracles for either or both spouses. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> What is a surprise (or at least it was to me) is that this seems to go both ways, but perhaps for slightly different reasons, or apparent reasons.

Just thoughts,

JL

Thanks, JL! Perfectly spoken!

And I will say again to you ladies, you don't have to do anything. You can neglect your spouse all you want, whatever the reason. No one is going to stop you; its your life. But that is how many affairs start. That is a simple true fact. You can tell your spouse to GROW UP, go to he11, or whatever if it makes you happy. But neglected spouses tend to have affairs. Don't get mad at Dr. Harley for pointing out that true FACT. Don't shoot the messenger!

I don't know how many people on the Mb boards know this, but Dr Harley has written a version of HNHN especially for parents so as to better address this issue. - Link here - http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi6020_needsp.html

thanks, stillseeking! I forgot all about that. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I have seen this discussion more than a few times over the years. My personal opinion is that it is a matter of BALANCE. One can neglect their children and give too much time to a spouse. One can also neglect a spouse and give too much time to children. Usually the people doing the neglecting doesn't ever see it.

I AM NOT trying to say any of this is going on here, with any of you. I am speaking in general, about people I have watched over the years.
I wish everyone would read Harley's books, and work on their marriage though. I can say, with a voice of experience that THIS STUFF REALLY WORKS.

One can, if one works at it....... find balance. It takes thought, time, and creativity, but you can.

Just for the record, my W and I have 8 children.

SS

hmmmm...

This is an interesting topic, though I really don't agree with the explanations given.

I've found on this board that often times the BS is pretty well beaten down for not meeting the WS's needs while the WS is portrayed as the victim in their adultery.

Those poor WH's as another poster stated. Yeah, right.

We hear over and over again how the adultery was the WS'S CHOICE, yet it seems that in the same breath the BS is then blamed for not meeting their needs and thus "contributing" to the infidelity.

While this may be true in some cases, I believe that it is RARE that the BW who is pregnant/caring for small children purposely neglects their WH or even actually neglects them at all.

In my own case, I tried repeatedly to spend time with my WH apart from my DS before and after I became pregnant. I tried often to get him to go out on dates, but HE was uninterested in putting in the work.

I believe that the WH who cheats during these times are the one who neglected the BW more often than not.

They were most likely the ones who were unable to handle sharing in the responsibility to care for their children so they had to flee into the arms of a fantasy in order to escape that responsibility.

These WH could not step up during the time when they were needed the most and hence showed themselves to be cowardly, immature and selfish.

I find it highly upsetting that on top of providing most of the care to the children, the BW's on here are now being put on a guilt trip for not taking care of their husbands too.

The vows taken at the alter do state that you swear before God to stay with your spouse in good times and bad, in sickness and in health until death.

They do not include the fact that if you fail to meet your WS's need (unknowingly) while pregnant and feeling ill, tired, and emotional, that gives them the excuse they need to seek out another person to have sex with.

In these cases, I feel it is an integrity issue, not an emotional need problem.

These WH's have no clue what commitment, love or honor mean.

It is my opinion that the stress of having children simply brought those severe internal character issues into the light and resulted in this most heinous form of infidelity.

If that were the case, the other 50% of the spouses in those particular marriages would have had affairs, too. Not just the WS, but the other partner would have, as well.

Neglect goes both ways. You cannot say neglect is what "caused" the affair. I would have been in the grocery clerk or mail man's arms.

And just how are we supposed to read the WS's mind? If they are silent about what they need, are we supposed to magically know?

Needs play only a part of the WS's mindset, IMO. And they know when they are going out and getting those needs met by someone else...why can't they ask their spouse before performing the most hurtful betrayal imaginable?

Saralynn, beoootifully spoken.

I was a victim of the WH cheating while I was pregnant with our son. Yes, it is immature, selfish and cowardly.

The longer I am on this site, the stronger I become, and the more I wonder why I keep hanging on to a man who does not display any integrity or respect for the one he vowed to cherish above all...his wife.

And true also, oftentimes there is no neglect, it is just an unknown need that the WS fails to disclose. Now, where DID I put my crystal ball?

Thank you for writing this. I really needed to read it tonight.

Not at all. Some people have affairs and some don't. The conditions that lead one to an affair are entirely individual. Just because YOU didn't have an affair because your needs weren't met doesn't mean it hasn't happened to others.


Yes, I can. And do. It is often the cause of affairs.


Why? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />


You aren't. Half the time they don't tell the BS. Half the time they don't know themselves.


It depends on the situation. In my marriage, unmet needs had NOTHING to do with my H's affair. NOTHING. In other affairs, unmet needs were the SOLE reason the WS was vulnerable to an affair.

Don't misunderstand here, no one is blaming the BS for the affair. The WS is always to BLAME for making that choice. The only thing the BS is to blame for is his own behavior in the marriage.

it sure would be nice if y'all would take the time to READ His Needs, Her Needs because I suspect it would fill in alot of gaps for you.

I have read HNHN, SAA, After the Affair, Unfaithful, sections of Just Not Friends, and portions of Torn Asunder. And it is enlightening...unfortunately, it is after the fact.

I would suggest many here read CoDependency No More, too...it opened my eyes.

Mel - question:
How can unmet needs be the "cause", but the BS is not to "blame". Since HNHNs states that spouses are the ones to fill needs...how is saying the unmet needs of the WS aren't to "blame", therefore blaming the BS?

Oh...just to lighten the mood -
Because, as a SAHM of 5, those are the only men I get a chance to meet. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

The BS is to blame for the STATE OF THE MARRIAGE, *IF* WARRANTED, not the affair.

No, I don't understand WHY you would have had an affair with them.

ok, here is a post from Dr. Harley to me about this very subject. Hope this clarifies the issue:

Well...I wouldn't. Have no desire to hurt another human being in that way.

Road - Good for you on reading so much!

I have read most of those too, plus Dr. Dobson's Love Must Be Tough. That one is super! It basically suggest the PBL earlier in the "game", as his theory as a licensed Christian counselor for many, many years is that RESPECT has been lost by the WS and all they want is out, out, out. So, if you "open the cage door",then it may make them pause to think if they really DO want to go. (Fence sitting 'round these parts)

Anyway, if you can find the time, add it to your collection. I bought the CD's so I could listen in the car. Even the inflection in his voice was like saying "come on, buck up, you can do it, be strong, gain respect back"" and I really needed to hear it in order for it to stick in my mind.

p.s. My mailman has the most beautiful sea green eyes. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I was the one in our marriage that anticipated this probable cause for infidelity, and wanted to make sure we got babysitters and went on dates. My WXH was the one who didn't want to AND the one who cheated.

I can see your point - that it is wrong for the WS to stray when the BS may in fact not be able to give them as much time or attention as was possible before the children were born. While not being able to meet the WS's EN's can certainly raise the risk of cheating it still is just an excuse and the WS didn't have to choose to cheat.

I also agree with what Melody is saying that it is still the busy parents' responsibility to make time for dating your spouse. I viewed it as not just doing something for myself and my WH but also the best way to make my family more secure for my daughters. Unfortunately my WH didn't see the importance (or perhaps he wanted to make sure he had an excuse for his cheating?)

IMHO BOTH the warning that parents need to make time for each other AND the expectation that even when there may be times when that isn't always possible there is a responsibility to NOT get your EN's met elsewhere, need to be made more well-known in our society. And while the first fact is still not as well-known as it could be, I have at least heard of it numerous times. The second concept is IMHO the one least talked about and least supported in our society. So I'm glad to see it addressed here.

I thnk too often is is overlooked that each time a WS uses this excuse to cheat, there is also a BS who had the exact same excuse (was in the same marriage and going without their EN's being met too) yet they didn't cheat. The difference IMHO is not merely a matter of who got the opportunity first either IMHO. (I don't think there ever was a time in my marriage when I would have had to search far to have the opportunity to cheat or the excuse.)

I sort of feel uncomfortable the way the meeting of EN's as a way to 'affair-proof' a marriage isn't always combined with an equal emphasis on the responsibility to NOT allow any OW to meet important EN's. Both are of equal importance to me.

This subject is important to me as well. WW and I have a 2 yo son, and I know that in the time (months) that she was dealing with the prospect of leaving her job and not seeing RB, that she was really emotional and was crying a lot. Our Son picked up on her beingn upset, and was saying "I'm sorry Mommy" as he apparently thought he had done something to make WW upset.
This collateral damage is absolutely devastating to me. In addition to putting energy into her affair rather than helping to build a stronger marriage and home for our child, she was directly damaging him in my opinion with her selfish actions.
Not to mention that our son, no doubt senses the strain and tension that exists between mommy and daddy, and this is absolutely unacceptable to me. HE is the most important person in our lives NOT WW, Not me and certainly NOT RB!!
I can understand WW feeling lonely, and whatever else she felt allowed her to become involved in an Affair, but it is certainly NOT a justification or acceptable reason for her selfish hurtful actions...

TTH,

I am noticing that with my older children, too. They are constantly saying "I love you mommy", "I will always love you" and the same to their dad. Even though I try to keep my upset from them...I know they can see and feel something is amiss.
They are the real victims...

I've been watching this thread - as I have some similar questions/thoughts.
Mel - good post from the Harleys: that was really helpful to me in understanding what they're saying. It's easier to understand in the full context, as they explained what they mean by both 'reason' and 'excuse'.

Thast said, Saralynn, you really verbalized what has at least been true in my situation::

They were most likely the ones who were unable to handle sharing in the responsibility to care for their children so they had to flee into the arms of a fantasy in order to escape that responsibility.

These WH could not step up during the time when they were needed the most and hence showed themselves to be cowardly, immature and selfish.

I really think this had a lot to do with our problems (and the fact that he did not even hint at his unmet needs whatsoever until it was 'too late', ie. already addicted to the affair). And although we could do better at prioritizing each other, time together, etc. - it will be work to make that happen. And it is NOT work to make it happen with OW, who has no children - life is free and easy with her. It is so hard for me sometimes to not feel like the older brother in the prodigal son..

I sort of feel uncomfortable the way the meeting of EN's as a way to 'affair-proof' a marriage isn't always combined with an equal emphasis on the responsibility to NOT allow any OW to meet important EN's. Both are of equal importance to me.

Well put, mm!!!! Exactly what I'm thinking. And I also agree with you that 'opportunity' is not the only reason one spouse with unmet needs has an A before the other.

And biblically God seems IMHO to ask us to have stewardship of our own lives, no matter what, NOT dependent on another's actions. Even things relating to marriage; like it's not 'husbands, love your wife as Christ loved the church, IF she...'

I would say the WS AND the BS are to blame for the state of the marriage. And a marriage would be a whole lot easier to *fix* before an affair.

I agree with you all.
In our case, WW was unhappy mostly for geographical reasons, but never told me she felt so bad until OM was already on the scene.
Makes me wonder sometimes if the re-writing of our M was already underway even at the earliest stage of the burgeoning A.
I especially relate to the idea that this A was a diversion from the real responsibility that WW had to the family and quite frankly her own happiness.
I think it was much easier for her to get good feelings from someone else rather than be stronger, more independent and figure it out on her own.

As Mr. & Mrs. W say, "You bloom where you're planted."

Maybe Dr. Harley is saying don't have 5 kids because you can't afford to take care of them and spend 15 hours together. It just isn't feasable for most people. Your husband didn't want to spend time with you because he wanted to get away from his five kids. You didn't meet his need for recreational companionship. He probably found someone without 5 kids to hang out and have an affair with. I'm not justifying it, I'm just explaining how it happens.

Now that you already have 5 kids, maybe the solution is to lower your standard of living so that you can spend more time together. If you don't spend time together, he has an affair, and you get divorced, your standard is going to take a hit anyway. It's all about priorities. You've got to make things happen. Brainstorm solutions. It's all in the POJA.

Uhm, can you quote someplace that Dr. Harley correlates the number of children a couple has as being a reason for an affair? I sure haven't seen it anywhere.



I have to say this is truly THE dumbest thing I have ever read here.

I have seen parents with one child who can't cope. I have friends who have 13 children and spend a lot of time together...time that doesn't cost much.

This issue with RU is that her husband is involved in independent behavior aka love busting. When children come...doesn't really matter how many...livestyles do need to change. His has not. So he leaves his wife at home every night to go do his thing...and you want to blame it on the number of kids. Give me a break! It still boils down to what it always does...selfishness and entitlement.

I've seen it here with families with 1 kid, 2 kids, and more.

Sounds like you have an issue with large families.

Jim, Jim, Jim..........

Jim...are you sleep typing?

I posted the above post because when I read that to my FWS, tst, he said I better post just how stupid that comment was. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

He said, "That is the dumbest, f'ing bunch of foggy thinking I've ever heard."

Uh, yeah, we have 5 kids. Uh no, he wasn't trying to get away from them so went out and had an affair. That's the craziest logic...no way, that ISN'T logic.

Jim,

I was thinking you might consider getting rid of your two cats if you're not able to meet your 15 hours a week.
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

You know the old saying, "Kids and cats cause affairs."

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

snort snort snort
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /><img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Wow!

Good to see the responses to this thread. Sorry I haven't replied for a while as I've been busy with my crew.

Lovely point that Jim made! Thanks, Jim. (And I'm not being facetious, I'm sincere.) So many people have said similar things to my face. And in doing so, I thought about it and changed the way I handled my life and put better boundaries in place with my H and others. The price of admission to my life and my kids' lives went way up!


Is Dr Harley saying not to have 5 kids if you can't afford to take care of them and spend 15 hours with thew spouse? I dunno. I don't think so. I believe that Dr Harley expects married couples to behave like mature adults in matters of rearing children and M. If a person takes on responsibility in the form of offspring, the Dr wants them to have awesome M's so the kids can turn out to be productive, well-adjusted adults.

But I know this much. My H, like the H of RU, expected me to "be open to life" in the marriage. To not contracept. To either abstain during the fertile phase between menses or to have relations during the fertile time to conceive. In my case, these weren't accident pregnancies. Our H's, because of their religious beliefs, were expecting their wives to live by a set of values that obviously they truly didn't want to abide by themselves.

These men chose to bed their wives and make their progeny in conditions that weren't "perfect". They don't get to complain about any needs not being met, since the wives in both cases tried to engage their H's so we could meet their needs.

This is the reason why I asked the ?? I did in this thread. I'm 5 years out from dday and before I go giving advice to RU or anyone else in a similar situation, I want to be certain that there isn't a deeper issue within our spouses. I mean, how do people just abandon their little kids for an AP?

A parent has responsibility to their kids regardless of what they're getting or not getting from their spouses, work, or society. Spouses can speak up and use their voices if they don't like their M. They don't have to act like a terrorist and rain down destruction on innocents.

To my fellow male MBer's who had wives that were WW under these conditions, I feel for you. I appreciate your input. I don't want this to become a WH baby daddy bashing post, because it is common on both sides of the gender fence.

While I'm not the product of an adulterous affair, my paternity was an issue in my parents M. Let me say, that's no walk in the park.

As you can imagine because of my conception circumstances, I have very strong feelings when it's a mom doing that to her family. (Not saying it's ok for a dad either.)

But as far as statistics, I'd venture to say that if DNA tests were done, probably 1 in 4 to 1 in 10 named fathers aren't the actual bio dad. (based on court ordered test results stats)

RU,

Hugs and encouragement to you! Keep reading the boundaries books and do the MB work. Raise the price of admission into your life and to your children's lives.

One of the first things I did after dday was let my H know if he wanted a family, he'd better step up to the plate and behave like a dad. He didn't go anywhere, except to work or the Dr, without at least one of the children with him.

I let him know straight up that he'd better repair the damage done to his kids by his behavior. He had to reconcile with them. Make them feel safe and secure with him.

This took enough pressure off of me that i could gather my thoughts and develop a way of coping with the madness. By having H do his share with the kids, he had less time to get into trouble. His focus was turned back toward his family.

(At first, he tried to gripe about being "punished, but i refused to validate it. I told him that if we separated he was going to have the kids on his own at court ordered intervals anyway, so he'd better get to know them better and learn how to take care of them. And if we divorced, he would be contributing to the upkeep of 2 separate residences that could house the kids. I would have the judge make sure that the kids had their supplies...dressers, beds, clothing, etc at both homes so they wouldn't be burdened toting a bunch of stuff back and forth. Oh, and that there would be a no paramours clause in any visitation orders. That way, my kids wouldn't be exposed to any future GF's. I made sure he understood that S or D wasn't going to be a pleasant living arrangement that allowed for him to live like a bachelor with no cares in the world. The courts would make him support *all those* kids or go to jail!)

And while laying down the new *house* laws, I did my best to meet his needs, not LB, and make our home a sanctuary for the family. I wasn't always successful, but using some ideas of plan a and the other MB principles, I did recapture my H's heart and affection.


Jewel

Thank you.

Everyday right now is a challenge.