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RMJ, Dr. Harley says to do what it takes to get in that 15 hours of romantic time a week! He says to MAKE IT FEASIBLE! He says to do what it takes to make it happen.

The reason that many affairs happen when children come is because one of the spouses feels neglected. So, it is very important to make SURE that does not happen.

So, the WS was neglected. Awwww...poor baby. Many times the BS feels neglected, too. Basically, what you are saying, is neglect the children in order to give an ADULT time, who should have the mental capability to understand.

I'm sorry if that sounds harsh, but these are adults here. Who know right from wrong and have mouths to tell their spouse if they are feeling neglected. If my WS had started screaming at 2 AM like my newborn does, I would have filled his needs!!!

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So, in your situation the trauma that your H suffered through childhood was a contributing factor, according to your reply.

In your case, your H didn't even recognize the EN for attention because the trauma made it unrecognizable?
Would his inability to define his EN make the M susceptible to an A regardless of how perfect a wife you had been?

I think this is a question that women who have been/or are dealing with these situations seem to have. Could there be something more with the WS than just the MB principles not being applied.


With your spouse and with mine, it was obvious that we wouldn't have been able to meet our H's top needs, because our H's couldn't define them.

I created this post because of my past circumstances. I know how much MB helped my M, but I wasn't sure if the types of situations I mentioned here could be out of MB's range when it comes to the WS personally. I don't want to give advice based on my experience if someone's situation should be addressed outside of MB.

Hi RMJ
I think most of us have issues from our childhood of one kind or another. It is these issues that create our EN rankings. My view is that MB can be used very effectively even if just to talk about what cannot be done for the time being but most of us sadly are not aware of the principles until the wheels have fallen off.

In the case of my H, his biggest problem was that his father was a serial adulterer openly for many years with his mother's apparent acceptance. So this was the model he turned to when things got difficult at home. And because the As were all kept secret, I knew something was wrong but did not know what.

MB principles could have helped by affair proofing the marriage.

Indeed, his family could have helped too by letting me know but they chose not to tell me. I was clueless having been reared in a very committed marriage.

May they rot for that.

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RMJ and others,

I hate getting sucked into these things but as you see I cannot resist. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I think Mel is dead on, and I think if you read Dr. H's work you will see the logic of this. HOWEVER, I think a very important point is being missed and perhaps it is because most of you have not been on this site as long as Mel and I.

You would be surprised at the number of women that have affairs right after they have children. I was amazed.

I think what is not considered enough is that pregnancy and having children is a huge stressor for both the H and the W. One would think it would be a time to come together, but as has been discussed it is not for some.

The issues are: time, focus, energy, and stress.

I can speak as a male who did want children, that my first thoughts when my W told me she was expecting was: How am I going to take care of all of them financially? How can I provide what I need to for this child? And yes, I did slip down the "to do" list as each child arrived. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

I did not have an affair, but years into it I was beginning to have the concept of divorce slip into my mind. I found MB and changed my view of many things.

The point: pregnancy and young children stress a marriage.

As Mel pointed out, the best thing you can do for your children is take care of your spouse. In the long run they don't recall who took care of them when they were young and sick and even who fed them when they were young, or changed their diapers. But, they do remember their parents, and they learn from the marriage they see as they grow, and they take with them those lessons.

I will end this by saying when I came here I wasn't surprised to find that men had affairs while their W's were pregnant or had just delivered. I was surprised that so many women had affairs while pregnant or within a couple years of having children.

So I am saying it seems to me it comes down to what Mel has said: focus, time, loving, Oh! and an occasional "thank you" works miracles for either or both spouses. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> What is a surprise (or at least it was to me) is that this seems to go both ways, but perhaps for slightly different reasons, or apparent reasons.

Just thoughts,

JL

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Thanks, JL! Perfectly spoken!

And I will say again to you ladies, you don't have to do anything. You can neglect your spouse all you want, whatever the reason. No one is going to stop you; its your life. But that is how many affairs start. That is a simple true fact. You can tell your spouse to GROW UP, go to he11, or whatever if it makes you happy. But neglected spouses tend to have affairs. Don't get mad at Dr. Harley for pointing out that true FACT. Don't shoot the messenger!


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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I don't know how many people on the Mb boards know this, but Dr Harley has written a version of HNHN especially for parents so as to better address this issue. - Link here - http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi6020_needsp.html


I think sometimes about all the pain in the world. I hope we can ease that here, even if only a little bit.
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thanks, stillseeking! I forgot all about that. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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I have seen this discussion more than a few times over the years. My personal opinion is that it is a matter of BALANCE. One can neglect their children and give too much time to a spouse. One can also neglect a spouse and give too much time to children. Usually the people doing the neglecting doesn't ever see it.

I AM NOT trying to say any of this is going on here, with any of you. I am speaking in general, about people I have watched over the years.
I wish everyone would read Harley's books, and work on their marriage though. I can say, with a voice of experience that THIS STUFF REALLY WORKS.

One can, if one works at it....... find balance. It takes thought, time, and creativity, but you can.

Just for the record, my W and I have 8 children.

SS


I think sometimes about all the pain in the world. I hope we can ease that here, even if only a little bit.
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hmmmm...

This is an interesting topic, though I really don't agree with the explanations given.

I've found on this board that often times the BS is pretty well beaten down for not meeting the WS's needs while the WS is portrayed as the victim in their adultery.

Those poor WH's as another poster stated. Yeah, right.

We hear over and over again how the adultery was the WS'S CHOICE, yet it seems that in the same breath the BS is then blamed for not meeting their needs and thus "contributing" to the infidelity.

While this may be true in some cases, I believe that it is RARE that the BW who is pregnant/caring for small children purposely neglects their WH or even actually neglects them at all.

In my own case, I tried repeatedly to spend time with my WH apart from my DS before and after I became pregnant. I tried often to get him to go out on dates, but HE was uninterested in putting in the work.

I believe that the WH who cheats during these times are the one who neglected the BW more often than not.

They were most likely the ones who were unable to handle sharing in the responsibility to care for their children so they had to flee into the arms of a fantasy in order to escape that responsibility.

These WH could not step up during the time when they were needed the most and hence showed themselves to be cowardly, immature and selfish.

I find it highly upsetting that on top of providing most of the care to the children, the BW's on here are now being put on a guilt trip for not taking care of their husbands too.

The vows taken at the alter do state that you swear before God to stay with your spouse in good times and bad, in sickness and in health until death.

They do not include the fact that if you fail to meet your WS's need (unknowingly) while pregnant and feeling ill, tired, and emotional, that gives them the excuse they need to seek out another person to have sex with.

In these cases, I feel it is an integrity issue, not an emotional need problem.

These WH's have no clue what commitment, love or honor mean.

It is my opinion that the stress of having children simply brought those severe internal character issues into the light and resulted in this most heinous form of infidelity.


Me- 33
WXH- 33
DS- 5
DD- 3
D-Day 6/29/07
Divorce Final 8/27/08
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Thanks, JL! Perfectly spoken!

And I will say again to you ladies, you don't have to do anything. You can neglect your spouse all you want, whatever the reason. No one is going to stop you; its your life. But that is how many affairs start. That is a simple true fact. You can tell your spouse to GROW UP, go to he11, or whatever if it makes you happy. But neglected spouses tend to have affairs. Don't get mad at Dr. Harley for pointing out that true FACT. Don't shoot the messenger!

If that were the case, the other 50% of the spouses in those particular marriages would have had affairs, too. Not just the WS, but the other partner would have, as well.

Neglect goes both ways. You cannot say neglect is what "caused" the affair. I would have been in the grocery clerk or mail man's arms.

And just how are we supposed to read the WS's mind? If they are silent about what they need, are we supposed to magically know?

Needs play only a part of the WS's mindset, IMO. And they know when they are going out and getting those needs met by someone else...why can't they ask their spouse before performing the most hurtful betrayal imaginable?

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Saralynn, beoootifully spoken.

I was a victim of the WH cheating while I was pregnant with our son. Yes, it is immature, selfish and cowardly.

The longer I am on this site, the stronger I become, and the more I wonder why I keep hanging on to a man who does not display any integrity or respect for the one he vowed to cherish above all...his wife.

And true also, oftentimes there is no neglect, it is just an unknown need that the WS fails to disclose. Now, where DID I put my crystal ball?

Thank you for writing this. I really needed to read it tonight.


"Love the life you live, live the life you love." Bob Marley BS(me)37 WH(37) DS1 Dau from prev M 16 Married 4/06 D-day 6/06, again 11/06, again 4/07 Plan A'd all over the place, then Injunction 10/07, WH moved in with OW WH has own place 12/07 1/08 Plan B
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If that were the case, the other 50% of the spouses in those particular marriages would have had affairs, too. Not just the WS, but the other partner would have, as well.

Not at all. Some people have affairs and some don't. The conditions that lead one to an affair are entirely individual. Just because YOU didn't have an affair because your needs weren't met doesn't mean it hasn't happened to others.

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Neglect goes both ways. You cannot say neglect is what "caused" the affair.

Yes, I can. And do. It is often the cause of affairs.

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I would have been in the grocery clerk or mail man's arms.

Why? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

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And just how are we supposed to read the WS's mind? If they are silent about what they need, are we supposed to magically know?

You aren't. Half the time they don't tell the BS. Half the time they don't know themselves.

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Needs play only a part of the WS's mindset, IMO.

It depends on the situation. In my marriage, unmet needs had NOTHING to do with my H's affair. NOTHING. In other affairs, unmet needs were the SOLE reason the WS was vulnerable to an affair.

Don't misunderstand here, no one is blaming the BS for the affair. The WS is always to BLAME for making that choice. The only thing the BS is to blame for is his own behavior in the marriage.

it sure would be nice if y'all would take the time to READ His Needs, Her Needs because I suspect it would fill in alot of gaps for you.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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it sure would be nice if y'all would take the time to READ His Needs, Her Needs because I suspect it would fill in alot of gaps for you.

I have read HNHN, SAA, After the Affair, Unfaithful, sections of Just Not Friends, and portions of Torn Asunder. And it is enlightening...unfortunately, it is after the fact.

I would suggest many here read CoDependency No More, too...it opened my eyes.

Mel - question:
How can unmet needs be the "cause", but the BS is not to "blame". Since HNHNs states that spouses are the ones to fill needs...how is saying the unmet needs of the WS aren't to "blame", therefore blaming the BS?

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I would have been in the grocery clerk or mail man's arms.

Why? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Oh...just to lighten the mood -
Because, as a SAHM of 5, those are the only men I get a chance to meet. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

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The BS is to blame for the STATE OF THE MARRIAGE, *IF* WARRANTED, not the affair.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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I would have been in the grocery clerk or mail man's arms.

Why? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Oh...just to lighten the mood -
Because, as a SAHM of 5, those are the only men I get a chance to meet. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

No, I don't understand WHY you would have had an affair with them.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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ok, here is a post from Dr. Harley to me about this very subject. Hope this clarifies the issue:

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MelodyLane, Let me add something to what I have already written to you. I hope I'm not being too redundant.

You will hear Joyce and I repeat, "there are reasons but no excuses." One of the reasons for an affair is that emotional needs are not being adequately met in marriage, which makes an affair that meets those needs more tempting. But the same thing can be said of some who rob banks. They may be out of work, need money to pay the rent, ask for a loan but are refused by the bank, which makes robbing it more tempting. One reason for the robbery is that the bank refused the loan, but it wasn't the bank's fault that it was robbed. On hindsight, a bank might have helped the robber get the help he needed through social services, but the bank is under no obligation to do so, even though they advertise that it is a "caring bank."

An affair is different from robbing banks in that a couple have promised to be more caring than banks. But the principle is the same. The lack of care by one spouse does not excuse harmful behavior by the other spouse. Even when one spouse absolutely refuses to be affectionate, or to make love, or to talk intimately, or to join in recreational activities with the other spouse, it gives them no right to have those needs met by someone else of the opposite sex in an affair. They have the right to separate until the other spouse meets those needs, or even divorce when it becomes obvious that there will be absolutely no cooperation (there are many who strongly disagree with me on that point). But an affair is so cruel and so painful that nothing any one spouse does (including having an affair themselves) can justify the suffering that an affair causes.

Making a disgraceful act more tempting by someone is no excuse for that person committing the disgraceful act. Besides, in most marriages, there are times when emotional needs are not being met for reasons beyond anyone's control. That's why I recommend extraordinary precautions to help spouses avoid an affair. They are to not allow anyone of the opposite sex to meet their need for affection, or intimate conversation, or recreational companionship, or sexual fulfillment. When those needs are met, they deposit so many love units that you are likely to fall in love with that person, and make you hurt your spouse in the worst way possible. I hope that explanation helps.

Best wishes
Willard F. Harley, Jr.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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I would have been in the grocery clerk or mail man's arms.

Why? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Oh...just to lighten the mood -
Because, as a SAHM of 5, those are the only men I get a chance to meet. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

No, I don't understand WHY you would have had an affair with them.

Well...I wouldn't. Have no desire to hurt another human being in that way.

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Road - Good for you on reading so much!

I have read most of those too, plus Dr. Dobson's Love Must Be Tough. That one is super! It basically suggest the PBL earlier in the "game", as his theory as a licensed Christian counselor for many, many years is that RESPECT has been lost by the WS and all they want is out, out, out. So, if you "open the cage door",then it may make them pause to think if they really DO want to go. (Fence sitting 'round these parts)

Anyway, if you can find the time, add it to your collection. I bought the CD's so I could listen in the car. Even the inflection in his voice was like saying "come on, buck up, you can do it, be strong, gain respect back"" and I really needed to hear it in order for it to stick in my mind.


"Love the life you live, live the life you love." Bob Marley BS(me)37 WH(37) DS1 Dau from prev M 16 Married 4/06 D-day 6/06, again 11/06, again 4/07 Plan A'd all over the place, then Injunction 10/07, WH moved in with OW WH has own place 12/07 1/08 Plan B
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p.s. My mailman has the most beautiful sea green eyes. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


"Love the life you live, live the life you love." Bob Marley BS(me)37 WH(37) DS1 Dau from prev M 16 Married 4/06 D-day 6/06, again 11/06, again 4/07 Plan A'd all over the place, then Injunction 10/07, WH moved in with OW WH has own place 12/07 1/08 Plan B
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I was the one in our marriage that anticipated this probable cause for infidelity, and wanted to make sure we got babysitters and went on dates. My WXH was the one who didn't want to AND the one who cheated.

I can see your point - that it is wrong for the WS to stray when the BS may in fact not be able to give them as much time or attention as was possible before the children were born. While not being able to meet the WS's EN's can certainly raise the risk of cheating it still is just an excuse and the WS didn't have to choose to cheat.

I also agree with what Melody is saying that it is still the busy parents' responsibility to make time for dating your spouse. I viewed it as not just doing something for myself and my WH but also the best way to make my family more secure for my daughters. Unfortunately my WH didn't see the importance (or perhaps he wanted to make sure he had an excuse for his cheating?)

IMHO BOTH the warning that parents need to make time for each other AND the expectation that even when there may be times when that isn't always possible there is a responsibility to NOT get your EN's met elsewhere, need to be made more well-known in our society. And while the first fact is still not as well-known as it could be, I have at least heard of it numerous times. The second concept is IMHO the one least talked about and least supported in our society. So I'm glad to see it addressed here.

I thnk too often is is overlooked that each time a WS uses this excuse to cheat, there is also a BS who had the exact same excuse (was in the same marriage and going without their EN's being met too) yet they didn't cheat. The difference IMHO is not merely a matter of who got the opportunity first either IMHO. (I don't think there ever was a time in my marriage when I would have had to search far to have the opportunity to cheat or the excuse.)

I sort of feel uncomfortable the way the meeting of EN's as a way to 'affair-proof' a marriage isn't always combined with an equal emphasis on the responsibility to NOT allow any OW to meet important EN's. Both are of equal importance to me.

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