This subject is important to me as well. WW and I have a 2 yo son, and I know that in the time (months) that she was dealing with the prospect of leaving her job and not seeing RB, that she was really emotional and was crying a lot. Our Son picked up on her beingn upset, and was saying "I'm sorry Mommy" as he apparently thought he had done something to make WW upset.
This collateral damage is absolutely devastating to me. In addition to putting energy into her affair rather than helping to build a stronger marriage and home for our child, she was directly damaging him in my opinion with her selfish actions.
Not to mention that our son, no doubt senses the strain and tension that exists between mommy and daddy, and this is absolutely unacceptable to me. HE is the most important person in our lives NOT WW, Not me and certainly NOT RB!!
I can understand WW feeling lonely, and whatever else she felt allowed her to become involved in an Affair, but it is certainly NOT a justification or acceptable reason for her selfish hurtful actions...

TTH,

I am noticing that with my older children, too. They are constantly saying "I love you mommy", "I will always love you" and the same to their dad. Even though I try to keep my upset from them...I know they can see and feel something is amiss.
They are the real victims...

I've been watching this thread - as I have some similar questions/thoughts.
Mel - good post from the Harleys: that was really helpful to me in understanding what they're saying. It's easier to understand in the full context, as they explained what they mean by both 'reason' and 'excuse'.

Thast said, Saralynn, you really verbalized what has at least been true in my situation::

They were most likely the ones who were unable to handle sharing in the responsibility to care for their children so they had to flee into the arms of a fantasy in order to escape that responsibility.

These WH could not step up during the time when they were needed the most and hence showed themselves to be cowardly, immature and selfish.

I really think this had a lot to do with our problems (and the fact that he did not even hint at his unmet needs whatsoever until it was 'too late', ie. already addicted to the affair). And although we could do better at prioritizing each other, time together, etc. - it will be work to make that happen. And it is NOT work to make it happen with OW, who has no children - life is free and easy with her. It is so hard for me sometimes to not feel like the older brother in the prodigal son..

I sort of feel uncomfortable the way the meeting of EN's as a way to 'affair-proof' a marriage isn't always combined with an equal emphasis on the responsibility to NOT allow any OW to meet important EN's. Both are of equal importance to me.

Well put, mm!!!! Exactly what I'm thinking. And I also agree with you that 'opportunity' is not the only reason one spouse with unmet needs has an A before the other.

And biblically God seems IMHO to ask us to have stewardship of our own lives, no matter what, NOT dependent on another's actions. Even things relating to marriage; like it's not 'husbands, love your wife as Christ loved the church, IF she...'

I would say the WS AND the BS are to blame for the state of the marriage. And a marriage would be a whole lot easier to *fix* before an affair.

I agree with you all.
In our case, WW was unhappy mostly for geographical reasons, but never told me she felt so bad until OM was already on the scene.
Makes me wonder sometimes if the re-writing of our M was already underway even at the earliest stage of the burgeoning A.
I especially relate to the idea that this A was a diversion from the real responsibility that WW had to the family and quite frankly her own happiness.
I think it was much easier for her to get good feelings from someone else rather than be stronger, more independent and figure it out on her own.

As Mr. & Mrs. W say, "You bloom where you're planted."

Maybe Dr. Harley is saying don't have 5 kids because you can't afford to take care of them and spend 15 hours together. It just isn't feasable for most people. Your husband didn't want to spend time with you because he wanted to get away from his five kids. You didn't meet his need for recreational companionship. He probably found someone without 5 kids to hang out and have an affair with. I'm not justifying it, I'm just explaining how it happens.

Now that you already have 5 kids, maybe the solution is to lower your standard of living so that you can spend more time together. If you don't spend time together, he has an affair, and you get divorced, your standard is going to take a hit anyway. It's all about priorities. You've got to make things happen. Brainstorm solutions. It's all in the POJA.

Uhm, can you quote someplace that Dr. Harley correlates the number of children a couple has as being a reason for an affair? I sure haven't seen it anywhere.



I have to say this is truly THE dumbest thing I have ever read here.

I have seen parents with one child who can't cope. I have friends who have 13 children and spend a lot of time together...time that doesn't cost much.

This issue with RU is that her husband is involved in independent behavior aka love busting. When children come...doesn't really matter how many...livestyles do need to change. His has not. So he leaves his wife at home every night to go do his thing...and you want to blame it on the number of kids. Give me a break! It still boils down to what it always does...selfishness and entitlement.

I've seen it here with families with 1 kid, 2 kids, and more.

Sounds like you have an issue with large families.

Jim, Jim, Jim..........

Jim...are you sleep typing?

I posted the above post because when I read that to my FWS, tst, he said I better post just how stupid that comment was. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

He said, "That is the dumbest, f'ing bunch of foggy thinking I've ever heard."

Uh, yeah, we have 5 kids. Uh no, he wasn't trying to get away from them so went out and had an affair. That's the craziest logic...no way, that ISN'T logic.

Jim,

I was thinking you might consider getting rid of your two cats if you're not able to meet your 15 hours a week.
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

You know the old saying, "Kids and cats cause affairs."

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

snort snort snort
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /><img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Wow!

Good to see the responses to this thread. Sorry I haven't replied for a while as I've been busy with my crew.

Lovely point that Jim made! Thanks, Jim. (And I'm not being facetious, I'm sincere.) So many people have said similar things to my face. And in doing so, I thought about it and changed the way I handled my life and put better boundaries in place with my H and others. The price of admission to my life and my kids' lives went way up!


Is Dr Harley saying not to have 5 kids if you can't afford to take care of them and spend 15 hours with thew spouse? I dunno. I don't think so. I believe that Dr Harley expects married couples to behave like mature adults in matters of rearing children and M. If a person takes on responsibility in the form of offspring, the Dr wants them to have awesome M's so the kids can turn out to be productive, well-adjusted adults.

But I know this much. My H, like the H of RU, expected me to "be open to life" in the marriage. To not contracept. To either abstain during the fertile phase between menses or to have relations during the fertile time to conceive. In my case, these weren't accident pregnancies. Our H's, because of their religious beliefs, were expecting their wives to live by a set of values that obviously they truly didn't want to abide by themselves.

These men chose to bed their wives and make their progeny in conditions that weren't "perfect". They don't get to complain about any needs not being met, since the wives in both cases tried to engage their H's so we could meet their needs.

This is the reason why I asked the ?? I did in this thread. I'm 5 years out from dday and before I go giving advice to RU or anyone else in a similar situation, I want to be certain that there isn't a deeper issue within our spouses. I mean, how do people just abandon their little kids for an AP?

A parent has responsibility to their kids regardless of what they're getting or not getting from their spouses, work, or society. Spouses can speak up and use their voices if they don't like their M. They don't have to act like a terrorist and rain down destruction on innocents.

To my fellow male MBer's who had wives that were WW under these conditions, I feel for you. I appreciate your input. I don't want this to become a WH baby daddy bashing post, because it is common on both sides of the gender fence.

While I'm not the product of an adulterous affair, my paternity was an issue in my parents M. Let me say, that's no walk in the park.

As you can imagine because of my conception circumstances, I have very strong feelings when it's a mom doing that to her family. (Not saying it's ok for a dad either.)

But as far as statistics, I'd venture to say that if DNA tests were done, probably 1 in 4 to 1 in 10 named fathers aren't the actual bio dad. (based on court ordered test results stats)

RU,

Hugs and encouragement to you! Keep reading the boundaries books and do the MB work. Raise the price of admission into your life and to your children's lives.

One of the first things I did after dday was let my H know if he wanted a family, he'd better step up to the plate and behave like a dad. He didn't go anywhere, except to work or the Dr, without at least one of the children with him.

I let him know straight up that he'd better repair the damage done to his kids by his behavior. He had to reconcile with them. Make them feel safe and secure with him.

This took enough pressure off of me that i could gather my thoughts and develop a way of coping with the madness. By having H do his share with the kids, he had less time to get into trouble. His focus was turned back toward his family.

(At first, he tried to gripe about being "punished, but i refused to validate it. I told him that if we separated he was going to have the kids on his own at court ordered intervals anyway, so he'd better get to know them better and learn how to take care of them. And if we divorced, he would be contributing to the upkeep of 2 separate residences that could house the kids. I would have the judge make sure that the kids had their supplies...dressers, beds, clothing, etc at both homes so they wouldn't be burdened toting a bunch of stuff back and forth. Oh, and that there would be a no paramours clause in any visitation orders. That way, my kids wouldn't be exposed to any future GF's. I made sure he understood that S or D wasn't going to be a pleasant living arrangement that allowed for him to live like a bachelor with no cares in the world. The courts would make him support *all those* kids or go to jail!)

And while laying down the new *house* laws, I did my best to meet his needs, not LB, and make our home a sanctuary for the family. I wasn't always successful, but using some ideas of plan a and the other MB principles, I did recapture my H's heart and affection.


Jewel

Thank you.

Everyday right now is a challenge.