Hello all, this is my first post here at marriage builders. I've read a lot of great stuff here over the years and now have an issue of my own that I'd like to run by everyone since it is hard to get enough opinions from actual couples as you can only talk to so many people...

I'm 37 (well, will be in a few days) and my wife is 38. We have two boys, 5 and 2, we've been married for 6 years and are devout Christians. I work and my wife is a stay at home mom. My 5 year old is in Kindergarten and the school is a 5 min walk from home. She walks him to school every morning (with the 2 year old).

Enough background...

I am not a neat freak, but I like things in order. Clutter and mess stresses me out big time. Not 'eat the dinner off the floor clean', but I just like thing to be 'in order'. My wife is not so much of a neat person and she will plainly admit this. She is not filthy or dirty or anything, but just not very neat.

Since I go to work and earn the income and she is a SAHM I expect to come home to at least a home that is in order. I do not mean it has to be in top shape, but just in order. We have young kids so of course there are going to be toys around and that's fine, but my point is it should take no longer than a few minutes of picking up toys and the house should look presentable to guests. It doesn't seem to work out this way however.

I would like to get a feel for what agreements other couples have as far as the division of labor is concerned with a working H and SAHM. I pay all the bills, I earn all the income (she has investments for retirement that she brought into the marriage), my agreed upon 'chore' is to clean the kitchen each night (dishes and all) along with typical H chores like taking out the trash, cleaning the cat box, mowing the grass, etc. I also do all of my own laundry. Her agreed upon chore is to keep the living room and office clean which basically means pick up the toys every night along with caring for the children during the day. I would say I do my chore the vast majority of the time. The only time I don't is when I get home late from studying or work (11pm-12am) or if we are fighting then I just say screw it (like tonight). She does hers most of the time, but this last week I can't say I've seen her do her chore at all. At least when I go to bed at night (which is always after her) her chore has certainly not been done.

But the big problem is that during the day when she is home she should be responsible for all of the chores at home until I get home since I am at work earning the money that allows her to be a SAHM. Basically I am responsible for my job 100% while I'm on the job and she is responsible for her job at home 100% while she is at home during the day and then we can divide the load when we are both home. She usually has dinner ready for the kids when I get home (I almost always prepare my own meals as well which we have agreed on) and I almost always put one child to bed. I expect to come home to an orderly home and I will clean the kitchen which would consist of dinner dishes and cleanup. Let's not even bring up the bathroom and toilets. She expects that along with pretty much everything else housework related to be 50/50 even though I'm at work 9 hours a day minimum while she is at home.

Having an orderly house is very important to me and my wife has never really been able to do this to my satisfaction. Considering the fact that I earn the income, pay all the bills, clean the kitchen every night, do my own laundry and she is a SAHM with one child gone for 7 hours of the day and the 2 year old asleep for at least 2 of those hours, does it seem unreasonable for me to expect to come home to a fairly clean house? The best way to define our home is CLUTTER. There are two small kitchen cabinet areas and the top of the microwave that when cleaned are like vacuums for junk. It seems that within hours of being cleaned they filled with clutter and none of it mine.

The biggest problem with my wife's inability to keep our home in order is that I feel disrespected. I work hard to be the sole bread winner of the family (as we agreed to and we both wanted), she knows how important having a clean home is to me, yet she seems incapable of doing it. She can do well for a week or two when stuff hits the fan and she can certainly make sure everything is clean if there is going to be a playgroup the next day, but it never lasts. She has even mentioned paying a maid to clean our house one a month. I'm sorry, but even if we can afford it, that seems ridiculous to me. SAHM, 2 kids, one gone for 7 hours of the day and you can't keep the house in order? What am I missing here? Help me out ladies. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Am I out of line for expecting to have an orderly home based on my circumstances? Does it seem that I do more or less or equal to the 'normal' H here? Although I do everything I've mentioned here my wife frequently calls me lazy for not doing enough. I admit I do have the lazy gene, especially on the weekends when I want to relax and she wants to work outside (which she has done a lot of), but how many other H's out there earn the income, pay the bills, clean the kitchen, do their own laundry, trade Saturday's to sleep in (forgot about that one), while their wife is a SAHW and can't keep the house in order? Friends of mine are shocked to hear my daily chore is cleaning the kitchen, I do my own laundry and let my wife sleep in every other Saturday while my wife is a SAHM. Fellas, am I in the majority or minority here?

Thanks and sorry for the novel. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Rhindle

Rhindle what does your W say about this situation? Does she think it's unreasonable to keep the house picked up? Was she like this before children? Is this just part of her personality?

Clutter drives me crazy. Doesn't seem to bother my H as much. Just a difference in priorities. Does she perhaps feel overwhelmed?

I know that when I allow clutter to pile up sometimes it looks like a mountain, and I just can't bring myself to try to climb. Or there is clutter here and there and everywhere and I have 10 declutter jobs going on at once. Could it be a matter of not knowing how to organize?

It's also VERY frustrating to clean, straighten, etc then you turn around (especially with small children) and it's a mess again before you've had time to notice it WAS straight a minute ago. I know I have a tendancy to think and act, why bother! Could that be her situation?

Why are you fixing your own dinner? Does your family not eat togther? My H and I have an unspoken agreement, if I cook, he cleans up or at the least helps. Both of us agreed, especially when are daughters were growing up if at all possible dinner was always together. It's a great way to connect after a day and relax together.

Have you considered doing the Emotional Needs Questionnaire here? That might open both you and your W's eyes as to what's important to the other. You've posted what's important to you, what's important to her?

Just my 2 cents.

I understand that since she works at home, she should be expected to do the lion's share of housework. I would expect that. So I commiserate. However, I see an awful lot of "I/me" statements in your post.
I like things in order.
I expect to come home...
since I am at work earning the money that allows her to stay at home
Having an orderly house is very important to me
I feel disrespected

Not to dismiss your feelings, and you're indeed contributing a lot, but the impression I get is that you expect the house to be run the way YOU want it to be run. What are your discussions like about it? If she doesn't clean the same way you would, what have you discussed about it, so that she can feel enabled to do it the way SHE feels capable of?

If there is clutter, and I were here, I'd be asking for you to provide some sort of organization help - bookcases, cubbies, cabinets, drawers, etc. - something that both of you can agree upon. And the kids are old enough to be learning how to put up one toy before they take out another; that is what kids learn in Montessori at age 1 1/2, and it works wonders. Simple fix. Might take a couple months before they get the hang of it, but gently guiding them to put one toy up in a cubbie before taking out another will do wonders. And then she can concentrate on other cleaning without feeling overwhelmed.

But on to the big elephant in the room. If I stayed at home, and got the attitude from you that you seem to have - do it my way or you're doing it wrong - I'd probably be trying pretty hard NOT to be keeping up with my 'chores' too. Just to point out to you that you are not my boss, just because you make money and I don't. Especially if you're going to be telling me how clean you expect OUR house to be.

I agree she should be stepping up, but it sounds more like a communication problem than a selfish/lazy problem. Find out what YOU do that irritates her; it might go a long way toward her being more willing to meet your needs.

Also, what time does she spend outside the house? Does she visit friends every week or two? Go to a gym? Get to play a sport? Spend any time at all with adults, like you get to do 5 days a week? It could just be a big resentment issue, but you'll never know unless you sit down and let her tell you how you feel - WITHOUT judging her.

Ditto what catperson said.

Being married to a man who wants a very clean home, I can tell you what works and what doesn't:

~ Criticism over the way I do housework causes me to put on the brakes. I go on strike.
~ Compliments reinforce my confidence, cause me to want to keep that area clean on a regular basis.
~ Scattershot demands don't work. "I want this living room and office clean tonight!" Nope, doesn't work.
~ Specific, doable requests worded as thoughtful requests do work -- though not always instantly. "Honey, would you mind cleaning off the desk today?" works. (It make take 2-3 days depending on the demands of her schedule.)
~ Providing a budget for household organization works. Encouraging your wife to be the decision-maker on what kind of storage she needs, then helping her get it works.
~ Honey-do lists do work **if** handled as thoughtful requests and don't exceed more than two requests per day. Again, make sure they are specific, doable (in her book) requests.
~ Making demands as if her boss creates a master/slave dynamic. That never works. Child-rearing alone balances out what you provide for her. Imagine paying a sitter $6/hr, 24/hrs per day, 7 days a week, and you get my drift <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />.
~ Treating her as if she is the equal master of her domain (your home) does work. She needs to be 50/50 decision maker on all household purchases, including your furniture for your office, etc., so she has a vested interest in keeping things nice.
~ One tip for your wife: I organized my son's toys into plastic bins *with tight-closing lids* so that he could not pull out toys on his own. I organized the boxes by like toy-types. When he wants to play with toys, I pulled out one box he picked (it's very important that the bins be sheer so the child can pick out what they want well before they can read.) He could make a mess with the contents of that box, but it only took a few minutes to pick up the toys and put them away before guests arrive. At the age of six, he is physically-capable of opening the boxes now, but he is sticking to the one box at a time rule because otherwise there would be a consequence.

We had children very soon after marriage so she was immediately pregnant (with a difficult pregnancy) so it's hard to say if she was like this before children. But as I mentioned part of her personality is, well, not being very neat. It just doesn't come naturally to her. She can clean her desk and within a day or two is is stacked with papers, mail, you name it, a mile high.

She tends to think that if she cleans the kitchen during the day before I get home or if she practices what I preach which is 'clean as you go' then basically I'll have nothing to do when I get home. That is, if she puts the dirty dishes in the dishwasher instead of just throwing them in the sink the way she normally does then she'll be doing my chore. I think this is ridiculous to basically not take the extra 2-3 seconds to put a dish in the dishwasher just so I'll have something to do at night.


She has said she feels overwhelmed, but what I don't understand is how you can feel overwhelmed by just keeping things neat? She doesn't have to do a lot of things other SAHM's do like do my laundry, fix my dinner or pay the bills so it seems to me like she should be able to handle this.


She has the children's toys so organized that the primary reason I do the kitchen instead of pick up the toys is because of how she has the toys organized. It takes me more time to figure out where everything is supposed to go and frustrated me so I opted to do the kitchen instead since I know where things go there. She is not neat, but certainly knows how to organize... when she wants to.


That could be some of it, but a few toys on the floor doesn't bother me so much as that is expected. It's the areas of clutter that bother me more than anything. They've been cleaned and cleaned over and over, but like a vacuum junk fills the void almost immediately. Those small areas of counter space and the top of the microwave are too tempting not immediately populate with junk. None of it mine.


I'm eating 6 times a day and eating very specific foods in an effort to shed my winter coat... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> If there are dishes after dinner I don't mind cleaning up even though I don't normally eat the dinner she prepares. But if/when she puts the kids plates/cups up she regularly just throws them in the sink instead of the empty dishwasher which drives me crazy.


We are both aware of what are emotional needs are and what fills each other's tanks. Unfortunately neither one of us is doing what needs to be done. I know I'm not filling her tank as she is not filling mine, but I consider keeping the home in order part of her job and not part of filling my tank.

Thanks for the response!

This is the whole problem. She doesn't do the lion's share of the housework and I'm glad you agree that she should.


Yes, I am having some issues with how my wife does her job and this post is about me communicating those issues I'm having and my feelings about them to this forum.


All I want from her is what you already agreed earlier that she should be doing.



The discussions on this topic never go well because she feels like a failure and gets angry. She is the best possible mother for my children I could ever ask for and she works very hard to nurture and take care of them. I couldn't be happier with the job she does with the children. So when I tell her I get frustrated with all the clutter or mention anything about my disappointment with the condition of the house I think she gets angry because she puts so much effort into taking care of the children. This goes back to my point of being a SAHM with 2 children, 1 of them at school for for 7 hours a day... how can there not be time to straighten up?


Tell her this is a simple fix. She spends the vast majority of the day with them obviously and I know she and I both are teaching the kids how to put away their toys, but it has been a difficult battle. But as I've mentioned before the toys aren't the big problem. I have small children so I know there are going to be toys out. The problem I have is the cluttered areas that always exist no matter how many times they are cleaned (for playgroup for example it always gets cleaned). My wife is a master organizer. She certainly does not need help from me. She is a master organizer, but at the same time is messy. Her car, her desk, her sink in the bathroom, you name it, it's a mess.



She has already created cubbies, labeled bins and the whole bit.


Again, I'm only asking her to do what you have already agreed that she should be doing so I'm confused by your hostility. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> The fact is I rarely bring this topic up because it is a button pusher. This may be part of the problem. She has no problem telling me almost immediately when I stray from the course and don't do something the way she wants it done. Men call this nagging, but she she often does it sandwiched between a couple of complements so I know she is trying. On the other hand I don't say anything.. then as the days go on and I see more and more clutter, I can't walk to the washing machine to do my own laundry without climbing over a bike or a stroller or whatever that I had just cleared.. I clean the dishes and kitchen after she's gone to bed to see a living room full of toys that she didn't even bother cleaning up (again, not the major issue, but I do expect this to be done each night as we agreed as I do the kitchen each night).. the half eaten bag of Cracker Jacks on the microwave that's there for days, change (instead of putting in the change jar), wrappers, cards, toys, you name it... it builds up and builds up until I'm angry and still haven't said anything because it is a sensitive issue. That's where we are right now. I've been angry all weekend and she doesn't even know why because I don't want to bring it up. I know I need to do better here, but I know as soon as it's brought up like always there will be a knock down drag out about it.


Yet again, I'm just asking to be done what you have already agreed she should be doing. I am not the boss of her and do not treat her in that manner. I'm not trying to tell her how to clean our house, I just want her to clean it as everyone so far here as agreed she should.


But she isn't.


She is crystal clear as far as my feelings on having an orderly home. It's been communicated to death. I feel this isn't about her meeting a need of mine, but rather it's doing her job. I know what I do that irritates her as we have had many discussions about these topics. But I do my job every day. I pay the bills. I earn the income. I'm doing my job as a provider. I'm just asking her to do her job as a SAHM as you have agreed she should be doing. If the situation were reversed and I wasn't doing my job as a provider I don't think she would try to find out what she does to annoy me, then stop doing it so I would be more willing to be a better provider. It's my job and considering how much I do I don't think it's asking too much to keep an orderly house.


I don't know why, but I'm feeling a lot of hostility from you... but that's ok as I do appreciate your passion and taking the time to respond to my post. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> She goes to the symphony every few weeks or so.. she has playgroups that she goes to. She is involved with the yearbook team at my son's school. She doesn't mention anything about having the need for adult companionship so I think this need is being met. She did early on (she moved her from another state), but my impression is this is not an issue.

Thanks again for taking the time to respond catperson! I do value your input as I'm honestly trying to work this out. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

It's not how it's done, it's just not done at all. Since you ditto what catlover said then you agree that she should be doing the lion's share of the housework therefore I think you both agree that is part of her job as a SAHM. If my wife were to criticize my job, say I don't make enough money, hours are too long, too much travel, etc., should I go on strike? That probably wouldn't be good for anyone.



Agreed. When she does keep things clean I should make sure and let her know. Check.


Agreed. I may as well be talking to a wall if I were to talk to my wife like that... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


I think she would find it irritating if I were to ask her to clean up the clutter in a certain area, but I may have to take that chance.


She is a master organizer as I've mentioned before. She certainly doesn't need my input and she already makes these decisions on her own.


Understood.



I never make demands as if I were her boss so there is no master/slave thing going on. We both are pretty equal as far as 'power' is concerned. So child rearing alone balances out what I provide for her? If this is the case are you saying I 'owe' her if I want her to keep the house clean?? What does this mean? I pay for all of her worldly needs and most of her wants. Food, clothing, shelter, car... this may sound harsh, but here goes... if I weren't paying for her needs and wants I'd be paying someone else. Correct?


No problem here.


She's organized the toys about as well as they could be organized. Now if she could just do that for the other areas of the house and keep them organized (clean) we'd be in good shape. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Thanks again for taking the time to respond! It's interesting hearing from other women that's for sure. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Sorry, I didn't mean to sound hostile. Just pointing out that your posts appear to be very exact as to what YOU are not getting, but not so as far as what SHE is not getting.

Which leads me back to communication. It really really sounds like the two of you are simply in a battle. And whether you see it or not, the sense most of us are getting is that you expect clean one way, she expects clean another way, and yet you are implying that HER way is wrong. Whether you say it out loud or not, she knows you are thinking it, believe me, which will do nothing for her feeling like she needs to please you in terms of doing it your way.

That is where the questionnaires come in. They help you sit down - together, as equals, not as the one who does things right and the one who needs to learn how to do things right - and determine what each of you needs to get out of your relationship. Because she obviously isn't getting from you what she needs to keep from feeling resentful. Just as you aren't. The questionnaires will help you work out - on an even field - what each of you should be committing to in your M. Just because she 'knows' what you want doesn't make her want to do it.

Of course, it may be something as simple as that she doesn't 'see' the clutter. My husband will leave a wrapper on the counter and walk away; I ask him to throw it away, within 5 seconds, and he says 'throw what away?' Or if I point to a spot chock full of his papers or trash and ask him to pick 'it' up, he'll honestly say 'pick what up?' He simply doesn't see it because it is not a stressor for him as it is for me; perhaps the clutter is just not on her radar; if that's the case, you can't make her see what needs to be done if she doesn't recognize it.

But I really wish you would consider what we've said, that you need to look into how you are interacting with her, and be willing to step back from your beliefs and listen to what she has to say.

No problem. I was probably just reading you wrong. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I would say my posts are more about what she isn't doing rather than what I'm not getting. Since I'm looking at this in the context of job responsibilities I feel that I am doing my job as a provider, but she is not doing hers as a SAHM.



This 'battle' goes on whether we are getting along great or getting along poorly so I don't really see it as a battle. How can we be at battle if we are not fighting?



Hmmm... how can you say on one hand that you agree that she should do the lion's share of the house work, yet she doesn't do it and you say I'm wrong for implying that HER way (simply not doing it) is wrong? What if she implied that 'my way' of earning an income was wrong and I wasn't earning enough to pay the bills. That would mean I wasn't doing my job as a provider that we all agree I should do. Would you then defend me the way you are defending her? If you do respond to anything please respond to this question because I am fascinated by how the female mind operates. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />



By my way you mean, doing it at all? I don't see how this can be defended over and over. You all have said she should do most of the housework, but she doesn't, yet you continually defend her for not doing it. What is the logical explanation for this contradiction?


We've done things like this in the past, but I agree, we should give it a shot.


I can't imagine this being the case as this topic has been brought up so many times there's no way she doesn't see it and she has never made that claim before.


I will certainly consider everything you all have kindly suggested. I'm just still surprised how everyone has jumped to her defense for not keeping the house clean, yet everyone agrees she should be doing it. It just doesn't make any sense to this male mind. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Most the responses have been, "she should be doing it, BUT..." Why the 'but'? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thanks again for taking the time to respond. I REALLY appreciate your input!

I'm sorry but that made me laugh! But...so you'll know, there are many ways to be at battle. Many are so subtle you may not be aware of them. Especially with women. For instance, my H refuses to do housework. I ask him point blank to pick just one chore; he refuses. So what is my recourse? I stop putting away his socks and underwear. I still wash them, just don't put them away. They pile up on his side of the bed, waiting. He asks what they're doing there; I say "I'm sorry, but I'm so busy doing all this housework and working full time, I just don't have enough hours in the day to get to everything. So I just assumed you'd want to help me by putting away your own socks." That is a battle. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

There's a book often recommended here called The Dance of Anger. In it you learn to understand your own anger, the signals it gives you. An example is a person who wants their partner to share in the housework; the other person does. But they don't do it good enough to please the first person; the first person gets angry at the second. But in the second person's mind, he is doing the work, but he is doing it HIS way. The problem is not with the second person doing it wrong, but with the first person wanting the second to do the work - but only on her terms. Anything else is not good enough. The moral is that if the first wants the second to do it, she has to be willing to let go of the method/results and let the second have control over it.

That said, I still agree she should be keeping her bargain. But I reiterate that she likely isn't simply because of the way the two of you communicate.

I mean this in the kindest way, and maybe it's just the way you write, but what you do write seems very...judgmental of her. Regardless of how much work she's doing. You seem to have in your mind a certain way for stuff to be done, and if not done that way, it's wrong. She probably observed long ago that no matter how she did it, it would not be up to your standards which, IMO, seem to be pretty high - and rigid. People who are judged become very closed in, un-giving, un-caring toward the person doing the judging. No matter what sex. Human nature.

Thus the battle you are in. If she felt equal to you, able to speak without fear of judgment, she might tell you exactly why she has given up her side of the bargain, perhaps as protest (my work will never be good enough; why should I bother?). But I would guess she does NOT feel safe to do so. Again, why I suggested you work on communication.

Here's likely a good example. Do you recall these discussions? Can you relate one to us, word for word? Exactly how does the topic get brought up? Who brings it up? How is it started? What is said? What is resolved?

I think you'll find the key to your problems in answering that.

Again, I respectfully submit that there is something going on in the way the two of you interact that has caused her to reach this decision - on her own - because she doesn't feel safe (free from judgment) to discuss it with you openly. She simply quit dealing with it, which she may feel is the only way to make her point. Again, please answer my question above, and relate a typical conversation, honestly.

keeping the home in order part of her job and not part of filling my tank.

IMO you are wrong on this. It is NOT her job this IS meeting 1 of your emotional needs. Maybe this is where you are having difficulty. You feel this is her JOB, she feels her JOB is raising her children. MAJOR difference.

Of course, it may be something as simple as that she doesn't 'see' the clutter. My husband will leave a wrapper on the counter and walk away; I ask him to throw it away, within 5 seconds, and he says 'throw what away?' Or if I point to a spot chock full of his papers or trash and ask him to pick 'it' up, he'll honestly say 'pick what up?' He simply doesn't see it because it is not a stressor for him as it is for me; perhaps the clutter is just not on her radar; if that's the case, you can't make her see what needs to be done if she doesn't recognize it.

Really think this over. EXACT same situation as my H and I, again back to what are priority differences.

But I really wish you would consider what we've said, that you need to look into how you are interacting with her, and be willing to step back from your beliefs and listen to what she has to say.

I don't necessarily disagree with what you've stated here, however you come across as a parent dealing with a child. IMO both of you NEED to learn better communication techniques. I don't think it's your W's JOB to do what you've requested, IMO working as a team to live and work together amiably will bring you both satisfaction.

Wow, he has it made! So what is my recourse after asking my wife over and over to please do a better job at keeping the home in order?


I see you dodged the question I specifically asked you to answer. I will not ask it again because unfortunately I can tell I am not going to get an answer. I guess I should not be surprised at how amazingly one sided your responses are. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />


It just sounds to me like you are going to defend her to the end no matter what. I am not being judgmental of her I am only making observations. The observation is that when I get home the house is consistently not clean. You clearly will not give me any credit for earning all the income, paying the bills, doing my own laundry, and all I ask is to come home to a home that is in order. It is if this is asking too much.


Why is it all my fault? Wow. You haven't said one word in my defense. The one sidedness here is... well, I suppose I should have expected it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />


Can you recall any discussion you've ever had word for word? Since you will not answer the question I keep asking I will not try to attempt to answer this one. You said you agree she should be doing the lion's share of the house work since she is a SAHM, but she isn't doing it yet I am wrong for wanting her to.

This is a perfect example of how men and women are completely and totally different. Logic simply does not apply. :|

Frustrated.

So we have a SAHM with one child at school from 8am-3pm leaving a 2 year old to care for who is napping for at least 2 of those 7 hours... and she should not have the responsibility of keeping the house in order while I'm at the office? Are you serious?


I will take this into consideration, but it is nearly impossible for me to imagine after the number of conversations we've had on this topic that she just doesn't notice the clutter.

[/quote]

catlover said:

But I really wish you would consider what we've said, that you need to look into how you are interacting with her, and be willing to step back from your beliefs and listen to what she has to say.

You said:

I don't necessarily disagree with what you've stated here, however you come across as a parent dealing with a child. IMO both of you NEED to learn better communication techniques. I don't think it's your W's JOB to do what you've requested, IMO working as a team to live and work together amiably will bring you both satisfaction. [/quote]

We definitely need to learn better communication skills, but I just can't believe you are saying it's not my wife's job/responsibility to keep the home in order since she is there all day with one child at school for 7 hours with only the 2yr old home and he is napping for at least 2 of those hours. Then tell me then, WHO'S JOB IS IT?? MINE?? Am I to come home from working all day as the sole bread winner, make my own dinner, do my own laundry, pay the bills, take out the trash, do my chore of cleaning the kitchen THEN I SHOULD HELP HER WITH THE REST???

Are you seriously... serious?

Rhindle,
I'm just curious. What is it that you think your wife does all day?

I'm sorry, I really am not trying to give you a hard time; my advice is heartfelt. It's just that what I'm saying, I think, is an alien concept to how you operate, and I don't want to bang you over the head with what I'm trying to say. Let me try again.

You quit 'asking' her and sit down, face to face and tell her what you are feeling, ask her what she is feeling, and then determine - together - what's the best way to make sure the chores get done.

I did not say you are wrong, I said you need to rethink how you are approaching the problem. You are telling her that she is doing a bad job, that she is not doing enough, that she is not doing anything. Any time you TELL someone what they are or are not doing, be prepared for them to be upset with you. Does she tell you you wash dishes incorrectly? You play with your child incorrectly? You don't bring home enough money? Then why do you get to tell her that what she is doing is wrong? Because you earn money and she doesn't?

Like I keep saying, I agree she should be doing the housework, if that's what she agreed to. But like I ALSO keep saying, she is most likely NOT doing it because of your attitude toward her. Is that plain enough?

And again...I will ask you. HOW do you make that observation? Do you say, "honey, I don't understand something. It looks like you aren't able to get your chores done. Is there a problem you're having? Do we need to talk about how we divided everything up? Do you feel like something is wrong? Can we talk?"

Or do you say "W, I'm getting tired of coming home and not seeing any work done. Just what do you do with your time all day long, while I slave away earning the money that lets you goof off all day?"

That is why I asked you to try to remember exactly (or close to it) what you say when you keep bringing it up over and over and over (as you said you do). Are you doing it in a manner that says you respect whatever she will say, or are you doing it in a manner that says you're pretty disgusted with how she's not pulling her weight and she's getting a free ride? Again, I ask you to be honest; if you're not honest, we can't objectively determine how to help you get that clean house you want.

Well, then I guess I can't see what's really going on in your house, now can I? Please don't put words in my mouth. I never said you are wrong for wanting the house clean. I said that you probably are not getting the house clean because of the way you interact with your wife. Bottom line, she's probably pissed off at you for being so self-righteous. Sorry, but that's what I'm reading.

And why do you keep feeling attacked? Just because we're not throwing you a pity party? How effective is that in solving your problem and getting your house clean?

You say I'm not applying logic. But I am. I'm applying a woman's logic. Since you are dealing with a woman, you might want to consider USING a woman's logic to figure out how to deal - with a woman.

But that's your call. I hope you solve the problem before it's too late.

Thank you. I'm sure you are being heartfelt and honest and I appreciate it. I guess this dialog demonstrates that women and men truly do think totally differently because you sound just like my wife... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


I'm going to take you at your word and try this. After all, you are a woman and so is my wife and you must think the same because you sure sound the same hehe.


Regularly.



Regularly.


I'm bound to do something right... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


Of course not. She tells me what I'm doing wrong several orders of magnitude more often than I tell her. You may think it sounds like I'm the dominating figure in our marriage by the way I write, but I am not at all. We are very equal and one thing she complains about sometimes is me not being assertive enough. I try my best not to complain because I know she has a tough job, but then I let it build up by not saying anything and then it turns to anger and I 'go to the cave' which is where I am now.


I'm sure this is both of our problems. I don't do the things that please her because I don't like her attitude and vice versa. I can understand this.


I bottle it up until my attitude is clearly affected by it and I go to the cave (basically try to ignore/avoid/not talk to her). This is not a time to try to gently bring up the topic. When it has been brought up in the past I've tried to be as delicate as possible by starting out the conversation like, "I know this is a sensitive issue, but we need to talk about the housework". I think maybe the biggest problem is that we have never agreed on a true 'division of labor'. The pastor of our former church gave us a general rule to go by as far as the division of labor goes. He said that I do my job as a provider 100% of the time when I'm at work. My wife should take care of the home 100% when she is home and I am at work. He specifically, but generally (as I have here) mentioned that includes taking care of the children obviously, preparing dinner and keeping the house in order. This is really the basis of my whole argument. Then he said when we are both home we should evenly divide the duties 50-50. The problem is agreeing on exactly what is meant by 'keeping the house in order'. We've never really settled that. The best we've done is I clean the kitchen and she cleans the living room/office and that is at night when we are both home.


Now I'm not stupid! Of course that will never get anything productive accomplished.


I don't know. From a man's perspective things are generally pretty black and white. It's logical and makes sense (to a man). I try hard to be respectful, but when I see her face fall when she realizes I'm brining up the housework again she is immediately offended. We push each other's buttons SO easily... TOO easily. We cannot approach each other which constructive criticism without the fear of offending the other person.


I'm not sure what is self-righteous about asking your SAHM wife to clean up some of the house, but I see the path is getting negative here so I'll stop.


I'm guessing if you posted a complaint about your husband and a bunch of d00dz jumped in and defended your husband while hardly acknowledging your efforts I'm sure you'd have a similar feeling. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


I understand and I try to think like a woman, but I don't know how you think so it is difficult. But I do try. On the other hand I see little or no effort here to think like a man which seems simple to me of course. Up/down. Black/white. Hot/cold. Eat/sleep. Very straightforward and predictable. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


We are in for the long haul. We have our problems, but we will not give up. My mother who is on her third marriage (which isn't going well) taught me something without saying a word... it's best to work out the problems with the one you're with NOW. Seems like even with second and third tries you just end up trading for a different set of problems.

Thank you catlover for taking the time to reply. I'm really going to try to take your advice. Once thing I've learned about women is to tell them they are right and everything seems to go so much smoother... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

That is a great question! The problem is how do you find out for sure? I have asked her of course, but it's easy to name off this and that without breaking the time down. The thing is it takes only a few minutes of time a day to keep things cleaned up and that is my problem. When I end up staying home with the kids for whatever reason the house is always clean when she gets back because I 'clean as I go' and she does not. I'm not asking for cleaned toilets, mopped floors and vacuumed carpets every day. Should a have her create a spreadsheet and account for each and every minute of the day to 'prove' to me she is actually busy? That doesn't seem to be a good way to go either so there really isn't any way to actually know what goes on all day with only one child for 7 of those hours.

My wife is not the type to sit around and eat bon bons. I know she is busy with things, but I think her priorities are not exactly what I would like them to be. We need to sit down and hammer this out. Sooner rather than later...

Thanks for responding!

I don't believe you shared that before. It tells me that you are indeed in a battle. You both are feeling offended, ignored, and minimized.

NOW we have something to work on. Have you read the points here about Love Busters and Emotional Needs? Have you both sat down and enthusiastically (meaning no hard feelings) agreed on what you are both feeling and needing and wanting? Have you eliminated your LBs? Have you learned her ENs so you can make sure they're being met? Have you reached enthusiastic POJA on everything (I'd guess no on this one)?

It sounds like you could really benefit from a MC, simply so that you can both talk to each other in a neutral setting long enough to reach a consensus? You don't sound like you hate each other or anything, just that you have trouble relating to each other in a healthy way. MC is great for that.

We haven't read the things you mention here. You mentioned a lot of acronyms that I can't figure out by briefly glancing at them so it looks like I have some work to do. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

We have gone through the love languages, top needs, what fills each other's tank, etc. in the past. But just like everything else it falls to the wayside as we continue down the river of every day life and daily routines. We need to stop and make our own path. Thanks for all the suggestions from everyone here. I'm rather surprised at the amount of responses and the depth of them as well. I know it takes time out of your day to respond and I appreciate it!

Rhindle read articles here on communication. I'm glad you gave us a little insight into your W's actions with you as well. It sounds like tit for tat there...you complain, she complains. Not good for either of you and VERY frustrating too.

I think we all here are telling you the same thing, approaching the subject in the right way and be willing to listen and compromise if needed.

LB=love busters, EN=emotional needs, POJA, point of JOINT agreement, MC marriage counseling, M=marriage


It sounds like you could really benefit from a MC, simply so that you can both talk to each other in a neutral setting long enough to reach a consensus? You don't sound like you hate each other or anything, just that you have trouble relating to each other in a healthy way. MC is great for that.

This might be the ticket for BOTH of you.

Allowing resentment and frustration to build is a M destroyer. As much for you as her. Really consider MC.

And for what it's worth...I don't necessarily disagree with you; however it really sounds like the approach and what you feel is ignoring your needs require immediate attention. I wonder what your W would post in response? Does she feel resentment and frustration too, maybe feels like nothing she does is good enough? Just wondering.

RH, I've been watching this thread develop with great interest over the last few days. My first thought after reading your original post was that you aren't really looking for a solution. You want someone 'fellas' to agree with you that your W should be doing the things you are requesting. I am hoping to give you a slightly different perspective on this because my H and I have had the same issue - only we have been married 19 years.

As you can see from my signature, my H and I have been separated about 7 months due to a lot of the things you have mentioned here - unresolved conflicts. Conflict avoider styles (his and mine). His reliance on 'logic' as a basis for resolving conflicts. My inability to adequately express my feelings, his insistence on discounting my feelings, etc. It's basically a two-way street.

You sound very committed to being in the marriage for the long haul (btw, you are right about your mother. There will be problems in any relationship so you might as well stick it out with your 1st spouse and figure out how to resolve the issues) that is great. That attitude will serve you well over the years.

So, my H and I are trying to reconcile. The FIRST thing he brought up in counseling was the fact that he hated the clutter. Here is what the counselor told us:

1.You need to express your feelings about the clutter - e.g., clutter makes you feel stressed. You worry that someone will come into the home and see the clutter and judge you, etc. (NOT, 'it's your job to do this - why isn't it being done?')

2. She needs to be able to express her feelings about the clutter. e.g., the clutter doesn't bother her so much. She feels overwhelmed with taking care of a two year old all day. She feels inadequate when you start criticizing her, etc.

3. Then you need to negotiate on this issue. This means you find a workable solution. Again, not 'she should do this, it's her job.' For example, my H and I agreed that the 'public areas' of our home should be as clutter free as possible. I.e, the kitchen and den. The way we will accomplish this is I will designate a cabinet in the kitchen to store (out of sight) all the papers, etc. that make up the bulk of the clutter on the counter. You could also agree, that before bed the two of you take a few minutes and pick up things and return them to the right rooms (e.g. the bedrooms).

We did not agree that the house would be clutter free all time. If he is starting to feel stressed about the clutter he is to tell me and I will address the problem as soon as I can.

4. Finally, the MC told us, this is an ongoing issue. It will never be a once and done type thing. We will constantly be negotiating this for the rest of our marriage. It is, in fact, an issue in his own marriage.

The point is you seem to be looking for a final answer here and that's not going to happen. Marriage is a life long series of negotiations. You also need to stop focusing on 'opinions;' (It's her job, I do my job, she needs to do hers) and start focusing on the underlying feelings. I guarantee she will respond much better because she will feel less criticized.

I am running out the door to work, please excuse the typos and grammar. I will edit tonight.

Rhindle, I've been pondering your posts quite alot. Another thing that struck me is, do you notice and acknowledge to your W her positives?

The actual noticing has been a difficult issue for me because it wasn't exactly what I was looking for. So with the help of MANY great folks here I had to dig deep and with open mind to 'notice' ALL the good things. Then I needed to put them to memory and also acknowledge them to my H. We are still working on meeting my EN's however I have to admit just by 'noticing' the effort that is being put into our M, my H is trying, trying very hard.

I do at times fall back into the bad habits of I want what I want and I want it now...YIKES! It's a continuing learning experience.

I hope this helps in at least some way.

Rhindle, I know how you feel. I just posted on another thread that my H doesn't contribute to the household chores. I have 1 full time and two part time jobs, I get up @ 5:30 a.m. to personal train, go to work in a construction co. (running heavy equip) then 3 mights a week I teach aerobics. The other 4 nights a week I babysit our 4 yr old grandson.

I love my H with all my heart, but he is the typical arrogant egotistical american male who believes:

Housework is womens work, and beneath him. He doesn't help or do pretty much any housework, so he has no idea how much work it is.

Thats pretty insulting, don't you think?

Well, in some ways, you post sends a similar message. How have I resolved this? I haven't. My H the few times he had to take care of the home( after I had a bad accident and was in traction for 2 mos)all he did was piss and moan how hard it was. You would think he would have come to the conclusion that it a lot of work to keep a home up and running...

So back to your situation...

I want a spotless house (I grew up in a pig-sty, 5 siblings, mom was an alcholoic I am the oldest daughter, I raised my bros and sis and did pretty much everything)so if i want things to be clean and neat, I have to do them myself.

Thats the deal. I harbor some anger and resntment towards my H.

If you could, you would go on strike. A woman at home can certainly take a day or two off housework to prove a point. I do so every now and then so my DH can see just how much DOES get done everyday. You'd be amazed at just how much daily do-over, do-over housework there is with two children.


I'd preface it, "Would it be easier for you if I only ask one small area of our home to be cleaned per day?" If she says, "Yes," then you have found a point of joint agreement. You may find her enthusiastic.


Given the volatile point you two are at right now, I would start with just one request per day.


I am available for babysitting/housecleaning. My price for housecleaning without babysitting? $15/hour. My price for sitting two children? Minimum $7/hour. Your wife is contributing $61,320 value per year in raising two children. Add in housework -- let's say you get a fabulous deal of sitting two children $7/hour and two hours average of housework per day at $12/hour. That is a value of $70,080 per year. You see. A woman's contribution is truly valuable when translated into a man's perception of 'earnings.'


At least you have a basis for a beginning.

I have read many of your responses, and, yes, they are filled with 'disrespectful judgements' toward your wife -- and even women in general. This tells me this is a very raw and emotional issue for you. Please take a step back and take this one step at a time.

Claim one area at a time. Your wife needs to know that you want the path to the washer/dryer clear. Word it nicely, give her time to comply, remind her nicely, offer help on providing good storage areas for the things she tends to leave there.

I would also loose the "I'm doing so much" angle until after you give your wife a weekend off and take care of the children 100% on your own (no calling Mom to help out.) My ex-fiance soon quieted the criticism on my child-rearing when he found out just how hard it is. I suspect you will tell me you already tried this. But did your wife pack the diaper bag? Did she make sure you had enough groceries in the house for the children? Did she make sure bath supplies were there and available to you? Clean towels?

You understand my point in this. When you are a SAHM, you start from SCRATCH. You have to attend to ALL of these things yourself. I found it annoying that my son's father would get a trophy for changing a diaper -- when I shopped for the diapers, the rash cream, put them in the bag along with the wipes, handed his father the diaper changing pad, and dressed my son after -- because dad forgot the pants! You get the point on that too <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

Try to step back from the anger. Try to step back from the (subconscious) sexism. Try to see the $$ value in the work your wife already provides. Work with her to keep your home clean at your level. Stop equating hours for hours. It does get easier as the kids get older -- but a two-year-old? Still lots of work. Most mom's are so exhausted, they nap when the child naps -- and that's what's done with those two hours.

I especially love that my DH will do long projects with me that better our household. Do think about adding a two hour project each weekend that the two of you do together. Let her lead sometimes. Projects like assembling the furniture, winterizing or summerizing the house. She will get a taste of what you do, while getting the message that we are in this together. How we keep our home is something we do together.

She lacks motivation and energy from what I read. Motivation comes from within; help her love her home. Energy -- that's kids. They zap mom's. She's trying to be a Super Mom. Let her off the hook a little on that one too. But she may also be hiding behind the Super Mom crown in order to avoid housework. This is something you both need to work on together.

Rhindle,

Just a thought after reading these posts:

Do you think your wife may be depressed? I was a SAHM for the early to elementary school years and found myself in a depression and exhibited the same things you are complaining about.

I was totally organized in terms of toys, appts., dinners etc. but the house was soooo cluttered! I found trying to just START clearing out some clutter to be overwhelming.

Every so often with my H's help we'd do a TOTAL de-clutter (usually took a whole weekend) and I'd say THATS IT! From now on, I will de-clutter as I go, keep it neat, etc... that usually lasted a few days and it would slip again.

All the "communicating" in the world from hubby would not work. Whether he did it right or wrong. It was definitely a by-product of my depression, along with many other things.

After getting treatment for my depression, I found doing the everyday clutter maintenance to be a breeze. Thankfully, we have lived clutter-free (OK, not possible but 95% free) for the last several years.

Ok, this may be a stretch, but its just something I kept going back to in my mind from my POV.

Good luck!

DING DING DING!!!!!!!!!!! We have a winner! This is exactly what I think is going on.

This made me laugh. My DH does appreciate what I do day in and day out but sometimes the kids don't get it. They have chores so they think they are doing the lions share. It's the over and over small stuff that really adds up. I was sick for 3 days and the house was a pit. DH pointed it out to them and said "see, this is what mom does for us every day." I love that man.

MizzJuneBug,

Wow, you definitely brought a lot of insight to the conversation here! I guess as always, it is a compromise. I know I have done a remarkably poor job this time around in communicating to my wife about my feelings about the clutter. I will certainly save what you said here for future reference. I guess I just have to think like a woman (and hopefully she will try to think like a man to see where I'm coming from) and my life will be much better. As they say, when mama's happy, everyone is happy!

Thanks again so much for your input!

As a SAHM for almost 15 years I can tell you that it is not easy. We have 4 kids ages 14,12,11 and 5. You have addressed the physical part but not the emotional part. It can be quite draining at times. If I have my time line right you got married and she got pregnant right away. Then she had a rough pregnancy. She has been a SAHM for over 5 years. I remember way back when I had a 5 year old in school and a 3&2 year old at home. Sometimes you just look around and say to yourself "where do I start?" You have to realize that you can never truly understand what your wife goes through emotionally day in and day out as a SAHM. Your wife can not truly understand what you go through emotionally day in and day out as sole bread winner. You just have to trust that you both are doing your best to take care of your family. Here are some things I went through over the years:

Every once in a while I felt unappreciated and I would talk to my husband about this. This is how I explained it to him. He goes to work and get a paycheck (validation). When he does something for his co-workers he gets an atta boy (validation). He does well and gets a yearly raving written review (validation) and a raise (validation) and a bonus (validation). I have no co-works, no boss, no paycheck no review. I just have to know I am doing a good job. Do you see my point? You are the only one that can give her feedback that will truly mean anything to her. If it is mostly negative then why should she bother?

One of the BEST gifts my DH gave me was for Christmas a couple of years ago. We were alone and he handed me some papers. He gave me a review! He is a manager and does reviews for his employee's. He took the format for them and tweaked it to list everything I did for the "company" He put comments in just like he would for one of his employees. I was so touched I cried. It must have taken him a long time to do and showed me not only did he realize what I did for the family but that he really appreciates it.

It is obvious the current chore agreement is not working. IMO you should pick just a couple of things that really bother you and ask her to concentrate on them. If it’s the dishes then tell her. If you want the first room you walk in to be neat or the bedroom just have her work on just that room. Maybe say something like “Honey I know it must be draining on you being with the kids all day and it seems like the division of chores is too stressful for both of us. How about we sit down and think about how we should change it.”

You come home and see what needs to be done. She basically stays home with it constantly around her. No change in environment to see things from fresh eyes.

mvg,

Another excellent point. I have NOT been noticing her positives. I probably didn't mention this, but she was doing a great job of cleaning a few weeks ago for 2-3 weeks in a row and then it just stopped. I rarely mentioned anything to her because in my mind I was like, "Ok, now this is how it is SUPPOSED to be.' and didn't really give her any praise (or very little).

We finally spoke (well, IM'd) today about this most recent problem. Come to find out she has been feeling pretty bad and my 5 year old has the flu really bad. I knew she was sick a for a couple of weeks a couple of weeks ago, but when you hear your spouse (or anyone) say they are sick so often you sometimes become numb to it and don't pay much attention. She gets sick a lot and so do my kids. She also took on a big role in the yearbook team that has some crazy deadlines and she's been spending untold hours on that project.

Currently I've been doing a lot of studying 3 times a week after work and when I do come home I play with the kids until they have to go to bed then I exercise for an hour or so, eat dinner.. all the while my wife is working on her yearbook thing or winds down to some TV. We don't spend hardly any time together and we are going to address that immediately.

Thanks again for your input!

valentinespice,

Some pretty strong statements there, but I appreciate your feedback. Since my wife and I have initially discussed this issue and are back on good terms I will refrain from responding to some of your more negative/aggressive comments. I know everyone here only knows what they know about me and my wife based on what I've said, but sometimes the assumptions people make are dead wrong. I know how to take care of the children and have many times. I am the oldest of 5 and changed plenty of poopy diapers before I was a teenager so I am well versed in that area.

I said I wasn't going to respond, but I cannot help this one... I understand the value of my wife's work in the home and I totally understand it can be a very difficult and stressful job. But show me the job that you can apply for that pays you $70,080 for house cleaning and baby sitting. I'm going to guess it doesn't exist. Do you know anyone that actually has this job and gets paid $70,080 a year to do it? I appreciate and understand the point you are trying to make (I've even sent my wife a 'check' for how much her worth would be in dollars before as a gesture of my appreciation of her hard work), but unless I'm mistaken that position doesn't exist in the real world that I know of. If it does then I respectfully retract this statement.

Does your husband earn all the income, pay the bills, do his own laundry, cook his own dinner and trade Saturday's with you so you can sleep in? I'm saying I think I DO do a lot compared to other husbands. That was one thing I was trying to get a feel from with this post, but it appears only women have responded. Should you lose the 'you do so much' angle when you really do?

I'm glad I've been able to provide you with some entertainment and a target for you to call a self-righteous sexist without even knowing me. I hear what you're saying, but I think you're comments and suggestions are going to fall on deaf ears when you speak to someone you don't even know in such a disrespectful way. And you are trying to tell me how to talk to my wife? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Fraggles,

Thanks for the input. My wife has suffered from depression in the past, but as far as I can tell I don't think it is an issue right now. She hasn't mentioned it anyway. Per my earlier post I discover that she has not been feeling well lately. I mean, I knew she was sick a couple of weeks ago, but I didn't realize she was still sick and not feeling well while taking care of a very sick 5 year old and fighting a deadline to get the yearbook finished for my son's school.

This is what happens when you don't communicate or talk very much! This is one of the busiest times in my life with my studying, exercising, diet adjustment, reading my bible every day and those are EXTRA things on top of 'normal' stuff like going to work, spending time with the kids, etc.

The whole problem here was just as most women here have said is communication. I've definitely learned a valuable lesson and appreciate the input!

Agreed!

suamico,

I might have to borrow that line if I get a reaction like yours! I will eventually realize what she does every day and will learn to appreciate it. When all you see is, well, what you see when you get home day in and day out it's hard to put yourself in the other person's shoes and make sense of it. Remember that a man's mind is simple. "House should be clean. House not clean. Wife at house all day. Why house not clean?"

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

This is very good to read. I believe men can be every bit the great parent that women can be. That is why my son's biofather has primary custody this year. I trust in the fact that he can father equally well to my ability to mother our child.

However, some men are not well versed in what women do in terms of childcare, so I apologize if I made that assumption.


These tend to be in and out jobs because they are so stressful. $15/hour for housework is for the elbow-deep, tough cleaning jobs, so no, most people don't want to do that 8 hours a day. Same with babysitting, no, people don't want to do that around the clock. But a mother must. If someone asked me to sit 2 children for two days, I would pull out the calculator, calculate $7 x 48 hours, and charge that amount. So, yes, I would get that pay. It's just that -- if they are not my children, and I am not vested in them -- I would not want to do it 365 days per year.


At this time, my husband earns 90% of the household money with the exception of the mad money we earn selling rare goods. Those profits we split 50/50. (I am in the market for a standard job just as soon as a financial situation passes.)

most of them

I wash his every day clothes, he washes the rest
yes, I'm vegetarian, he doesn't want me to cook for him
He lets me sleep in whenever I need to. If I am sleeping and my son is here, he makes him breakfast and instructs my son not to wake me up.


This thread would get women a bit on the defensive side, simply because many of us have walked in your wife's shoes. It doesn't mean you are all wrong. In fact, I too believe that she should do the "lions share" of the housework out of respect and love for you.

We are giving you tips on how to approach this, not slamming your character. (If you are taking it that way, understand it's not intentional.

I'm sorry, but this would cause so many women to roll their eyes. I can't count how many times I wished I ONLY had to go to an eight hour a day job like my ex-fiance (son's father.) If I ONLY had to do the man's chores. From the SAHM's side, it's your life that seems so easy. I'm sorry if you find that offensive given how much you do, but it is just true.


You are taking the term sexist way too strongly here. It was not intended as a character assination. We all have degrees of sexism ingrained in us. I prefer my husband to do the typically male chores because he is physically stronger, but I love to shovel -- he gets teased by his friends when they see the "woman" has cleared the drive again. We all have degrees of this. We need to work on it when only when it causes a problem.


I think the term "disrespectful judgement" was taking incorrectly too. I was referring to it in terms of trying to force the other party to see and adhere to your point of view. No, I do not think you are the kind of guy that would call your wife a "lazy slob" or anything like that.

This is such a classic argument that many of us are struggling with (including me) at this very moment. Please don't take any individual criticisms so intently. We are speaking from our own points of view. We are being honest. No one has ill-intent here. Peace <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

rhin, as you can see there is a vastly different POV on the subject of chores and child rearing depending on which way you are looking at it.

The folks who have responded have really hit the nail on the head.

As a woman who works 60 hours a week, handles 90% of all household chores (and, by the way, I do all the landscaping, lawn mowing, I just came here to work from plowing our drive as well as 9 others)if my husband criticized me like you have to your wife (esp. if I was a SAHM) I would tell you that if you didn't like it, to kiss my you know what.

Do you have any idea how lucky you are to leave the house, go be with the "big" people, and have a life outside of home?

I can tell you it is exhausting to just DEAL with a toddler all day...forget the housework.

And you get to exercise, and what else? How about she come to YOUR work, and critique what YOU do?

Don't get pissed at me...but I have been married 20 years...and have had many arguements about the division of household labor.

Suffuce it to say. you and your wife need to see this from both sides.You are not doing her a "favor" by taking care of the little ones, bathing, story time, geez these are YOUR KIDS TOO> I apologise, but it really makes me mad when I hear men refer to taking care of THEIR kids as "babysitting", or view this participation as a "favor" to their wife.

The advice and reponces on this post, well, I just want to say THANKS to the folks who answered...the subject of validation is a very good example of what motivates someone.

For those of you who have a stay at home wife or hubby, tonight when you get home, tell them how much you appreciate them. Show them also....schedule yourself to take over for them a couple nights a week so they can get out, or get away from the house and the kids.

We should all have to walk in anothers shoes.

What line?

There are terms here that are hitting me in this post. One is chores. I don't know why but this one bugs me. As a whole we manage the household as best as we can. There are some things I mostly do and some he mostly does. If something needs to be done and we have the time and energy we do it and not wait for the other because it is their chore. I know in some marriages our way wouldn't work but for us it does.

The other term that bugs me is Lions share. What does that even mean? That sounds like a subjective term. We all as humans see things from one point of view, ours. We have to think about what someone else's view would be because we are not in their head. Even if they tell us we still don't get the full picture. That is why I said you both have to trust that you each are doing what you can for the good of the family as a whole. For me it boils down to intent. Do you think your wife intentionally doesn't do housework because she knows it bothers you? If not then there has to be another reason. You can talk to her about it and try to understand or you can assume. I vote try to understand. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Also, when you are the PRIMARY caretaker of young children, as your wife is, you are subject to many viruses and colds. It is part of the territory.

Not at all unusual for your W to almost "perpetually" have the sniffles or not feel well.

I don't know about anyone else on here, but I re-read this post from beginning to end, and I found myself getting ticked off.
It would be very educational if you were able to swap places with her...for at least a month.

After that month was up, I bet you would be singing another tune.

By the way rhindle, I am a neat freak...:) in a obsessive compulsive way LOL. Believe it or not, I have also the same attitude about cleanliness and order....I decided it was MY problem, a certain degree of cleanliness and whatall is important...but I don't expect my H to think and act like I do.

There are other much more important issues to deal with. I prioritized what was really important to me...and housework, and the sharing of such took a back seat.

Well here is something I found that covers just the babysitting:

The following are some general weekly wage guidelines assuming a 45-50 hour work week and one or two children. All figures are in US dollars and representative of Year 2006 wages:

* 18 - 20 years old, or less than 2 years verifiable child care experience - $325-$450 live-in; $8-12 hour live-out.
* 21 years or older, 2 or more years verifiable child care experience, no prior nanny experience (note that college education puts you to the higher end of the salary range) - $450-$600 live-in; $10-15 hour live-out.
* Two or more years of nanny experience, and/or a college degree in a child related field - $450-800 live-in; $10-20 hour live-out, higher in major metro markets.

Here is what it says about more than 55 hours:

A full time nanny will typically average 45 hours per week. Longer scheduled days will require additional compensation. If the work week is expected to be greater than 55 hours per week, the family is advised to split the job between two employees.

Here is something else I found that covers the "extras"

Professional nannies with over five years of contiguous child care experience and at least a four-year degree that are providing full household management services beyond child care, shopping, cooking and light housework may find salaries extending well beyond US$400 per week.

So $800+400x52=$62400

This just covers a 9-5 job.

But the whole point about being a SAHP is that you DON'T get paid. That's why the only one that wants the job is the parent!
Trust me on this one, this issue will come up again. Not because you both won’t be able to iron it out but because you both are humans and sometimes we just need to have a pitty party for ourselves every once in a while.
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

I would have to respectfully disagree on this one. He would get some idea but unless you do it day in and day out for years with no end in sight you can't grasp the full picture.

No problem valentinespice. I'm sure I took some of your comments the wrong way and I think you're right, this is indeed a 'classic' debate which is exactly why I posted here because I know for sure that I'm not alone.

Thanks again for your advice and input. I really do appreciate it!

If that were the case I certainly wouldn't be criticizing you.


Very.


Agreed.


If it needs to be critiqued then I see no problem with that. My wife has absolutely no problem critiquing my work (around the house) and regularly does. But I can't? lol


Please point to where I ever said I was doing my wife a favor by taking care of my children. Yes, I am well aware that my children are, well, mine. Thank you for clarifying that.


Could have fooled me.


Again, I've never said that and I never, ever would.

You seem to be very angry with me and angry with me about things I never once said. I hope you are enjoying using the caps lock. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

This is fairly obvious. Since this is a 'classic' issue, you say you have been married 20 years, and you have had many arguments about the division of household labor with your husband I would expect a response of wisdom and kindness instead of one of anger. I can assure you no man will listen to a word you say if approached in this manner. I'm sure you probably already know this.


Just as my wife could handle working and earning the income if she had to I could also handle raising the children if I had to. Not that I would want to or that I am more suited for this role (I certainly am not), but if it had to be done I'm quite confident I could do it just fine.


Great. You are better than me. You get a star.

You know what, rhindle? I've tried to be as respectful as possible, couching my feelings in as respectful tones as I could. But you obviously aren't hearing much of what we have to offer. So let me make it a little clearer, in case you are able to absorb what we're saying this way.

One, you have a communication problem. Yes, you both need to work on speaking to each other respectfully without DJs, and meet each others' ENs and avoid each others' LBs.

BUT.

Based on everything you've said, you seem to have an incredibly strong 'male' view of life. One that your wife is obviously having a problem with. As would 90% of all the women I've ever come in contact with. No one is disrespecting what you contribute in your family, but you seem to have an immense chip on your shoulder, of what you think people should be doing.

Which is fine, if your wife is willing to go along with your world view. If she isn't, though, you may find yourself enjoying your strong opinions of how your life should be - alone.

Go ahead and believe that you are right and your wife is wrong. But remember what we all tried to tell you, when you find your wife moving out in a few years, having given up on you reaching a lasting compromise in humility.

"See, this is what mom does for us every day."

I can't wait to use this line. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


I would prefer this as well, but if there are no duties assigned specifically it creates resentment if one person is doing more than the other person for a prolonged period of time. If we have 'chores' then we know what we are responsible for doing and like I just learned I need to relax my expectations depending on the health and load my wife is carrying at the time.



I believe catperson was the first to use this term in this thread so I went with it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I agree with what you have said here. Communication is key.

I understand the numbers and appreciate the research it took to find this. I certainly appreciate the work my wife does and I will be the first to admit I would rather her do it than me! Women are naturally more nurturing and we wanted to follow the model God laid out in the Bible. I know it is hard work. But am I worth a few bucks as well for the time I spend taking care of the children as well or does this only apply to her? I certainly would not try to say, "hey, I took care of the children today/tonight while you were out, how much would that be worth in the real world?" But if it applies to her wouldn't it apply to me as well?


This is the one that drives us men crazy. How on earth can you say you don't get paid when you wake up in the morning in your nice, temperature controlled home, throw some comfy clothes on, go downstairs and get the kids and yourself some breakfast, get in your car and take the kids to a playgroup, go to the symphony Saturday night, eat dinner and put it on the credit card that automagically gets paid every month, take pictures with your nice D-SLR camera as this is a favorite hobby of yours and load the pictures up on your nice, fast computer... so my question is if you don't get paid how can you 'afford' a home, clothes, food, car, and entertainment? If you work for 'free' then I don't see how you could have any of this. suamico, you have been extremely reasonable and kind in your responses, but this one puzzles me. Please explain how you do not get 'paid'. You may not get a paycheck with a specific amount direct deposited into your bank account, but why would you need one if you already have everything mentioned above? Sure seems like are you getting some pretty decent compensation for your work. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

[/quote]Trust me on this one, this issue will come up again. Not because you both won’t be able to iron it out but because you both are humans and sometimes we just need to have a pitty party for ourselves every once in a while.
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> [/quote]

I am counting on it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Thanks for your kind words.

I could say the same thing to my wife and tell her that if she were to be the sole financial provider for the family that she may get the idea in a few months, but she'd never be able to 'grasp the full picture' until she did it 'day in and day out for years with no end in site...', but I will not. I can see nothing productive happening if I were to make that statement to her. Would you simply nod your head in agreement if you husband told you that? She may not be able to earn even half of my current income, but I can promise you she would do whatever it took to provide for our family financially if she had to. She would also agree that even though I am far less suited to raising the children than she is I would do whatever I had to do to make sure it was done and done right.

Wow, who TT'd in your Cheerios? I have repeatedly thanked probably every woman here for their input and taking the time to respond to me. I've tirelessly responded to every single post and have already taken some the advice from this thread. I have even specifically thanked you for your advice several times:

Thank you. I'm sure you are being heartfelt and honest and I appreciate it.

I'm going to take you at your word and try this. After all, you are a woman and so is my wife and you must think the same because you sure sound the same hehe.

Thank you catlover for taking the time to reply. I'm really going to try to take your advice.

Sounds like you're just here to pick a fight and look foolish. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

As I've mentioned my wife and I have talked and have worked out the issue for now and things are going well. We know this is an issue we will have to address in more detail, but we are committed to resolving our problems. What do you want? Blood? Is B positive ok?


Tell me something I don't already know or haven't admitted several times in this thread. I'm well aware that I have a communication problem. I am a man, she is a woman. Having a communication problem is the default setting here. What are you gaining by pointing it out after I've already acknowledged the issue? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Nice BIG BUT after you mention any possible deficiency that my wife might need to work on... and then go on to tell me it's all my fault. <sigh> I see a pattern here.


I didn't think this one would slip by you... I am a MAN. You have an incredibly strong 'female' view of life. Notice that I never pointed this out. Why? Because you are a WOMAN. I'm aware of this as is every other person reading this thread so there is no need to point out the obvious. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />


Notice you don't say that my wife has an incredibly strong 'female' view of life that I am obviously having a problem with. Why? Because you are a WOMAN. Apparently I'm the only man on these forums, but if any men have read any of this thread that are in my situation I would bet a years pay that 90% or more are reading this nodding their heads empathizing with my perspective. And they probably all have communication problems too that I've repeatedly admitted to, plus me and my wife have moved past this isuse. So what does your comment accomplish? Nothing except you trying to attack my character.



Not surprisingly a big BUT here after giving me any sort of credit just to make sure everyone knows that any positive attribute is conditional. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that if my wife were posting here about how she thinks I should help more with the housework with her being a SAHM you would not be telling her that she has a chip on her shoulder of what she thinks people should be doing. You are so amazingly biased and one sided I cannot imagine taking any advice from you.


<gasp> Oh the drama. Thanks for the encouragement. Sounds like you've been there before.


Another comment that sounds like it came from experience. Thanks for the heads up. You are certainly one for drama, aren't you? Have you read any of my recent posts or are you only focusing on what you can use to try to attack me with? Again, my wife and I have made up. I fell on my sword and told her how sorry I was for totally not properly communicating my feelings to her about the house work, took and used some of the advice from this thread and have committed to her that I will try much harder in the future to communicate my feelings in a productive way.... and you say these things to me? And you think my wife is going to move out in a few years and give up on me now? I know you're just some woman in Houston (hey I live in Sugar Land, wanna have lunch? NOT.) that thinks they are being useful, but to say things like this seems inexcusable and irresponsible. Are you just bored? Maybe you should focus your attention to your own problems. I'm sure you have a model marriage.

We are COMMITTED to our marriage, we promised God, man, and everyone in that room that we will be together until DEATH DO US PART. Nobody said it was going to be easy. Just going by the statistics I'd say you've been married more than once and by your personality I'm sure of it, but this is my first marriage and will be my last. Until death do us part. My mother has already taught me this lesson. Please do not try to predict the failure of my marriage. From the sounds of it you may have given up in the past, but no matter how difficult it gets we never will. My wife will proudly stand by my side in agreement.

Thanks again for the encouragement.

Again, my wife and I have made up. I fell on my sword and told her how sorry I was for totally not properly communicating my feelings to her about the house work, took and used some of the advice from this thread and have committed to her that I will try much harder in the future to communicate my feelings in a productive way..

Rhindle GOOD! Very positive step. I hope she agreed she'd do the same. I know this won't specifically help with the housework issue, but I'd suggestion reading His needs/Her needs if you haven't. It's a good read on ALL emotional needs, including domestic support. Maybe your wife would read it also, maybe together? Spending time with your W with no distractions will also help foster meeting each other's needs.

I'm going to put a call out for some of our men folks here to give you some input, ok?

We have quite a few online and they are most helpful.

catperson, I am with you.

Rhindle, you came on here looking for someone who is female to agree with you. Whether or not you agree with that, that is exactly what your posts say to me, and other people on here.

O.K. you wanna get real honest?

From a womans perspective, who has raised a family, and has over 30 years experience with family and marriage issues, this is what I read in what you type:

Arrogant, egotistical, and judgemental.

You have a VERY HIGH OPINION OF YOURSELF, AND A VERY LOW OPINION OF YOUR WIFE.

Reading the post that started this thread, I pictured you this way:

Like a big ape, pounding his chest and roaring....LOL

Like somehow you are worth more than your wife. that you are more important than your wife. The line that proves that attitude is the "show me where you can make 70 grand doing housework"...blah blah blah.

Now, your are angry with what I just said.

O.K. I am married to a man who USED TO think just like you do.

I picture you as a suit and tie man, getting your hair cut every 3 weeks, coming into your office and having an ego that is stroked and then re-inforced by this superiority complex.

People come on here and start out polite, trying to be politically correct...and then their REAL personality ends up coming through. (just like mine is)

You want a cleaner neater home. You think that your wife should feel the same way, and do what you want, and follow your orders.

I feel sorry for her. I bet she has low self esteem.My H had to fill in for me for 2 months, after that, he told me he was ashamed of himself and his arrogant attitude.
The most important job in the world is being a parent. Loving and being loved. enjoying our lives.

Unless you are personally responsible for world peace, or curing cancer, raising your family and creating a home is more important in the end than your 70 thousand dollar salary.

Get off your throne, and try some EMPATHY.

I apologize for sounding rude. I was trying to more 'loudly' point out that, while you agreed about the communication, you seem unwilling to consider that it may be your beliefs/opinions/actions that are exasperating your wife, and not just the other way around. You point out what she's not doing, and how much you do, and what you expect from her, but it all seems wrapped up in a sense that you...have the right to determine how things shape up in your household because you're the man. I may be completely wrong, but that's how I read it based on the way you write and the comments you have made. I was just trying to say that if that is the case, it may be affecting how your W feels; she may be bristling at your vision of division of authority in your home, and acting out against it in the only way she has any control, since she doesn't work outside the house and has no money of her own.

Our best friends go to a church where the women are not allowed to hold any positions except child care and domestic work. The men absolutely love it; they get to have male bonding all the time, away from the women, as the women have to stay in the kitchen and child care areas when they're not having service. But how do the women feel? For some reason, your marriage reminds me of that. That's all I was trying to point out.

You said that she has had depression in the past, right? Has she been checked lately for it? It's not the kind of thing that comes and goes just once, typically.

And fwiw, I've been with my H for 30 years this year.

So the men that read your post would, what , nod in agreement with you?

You once again are looking for complete strangers to validate your beliefs.

Get some counseling for you and your wife. Spend less time trying to validate your feeligs on a website, and more time validating your marriage. Because that is what counts. Not us. I understand this is a fantastic sounding board, and a good place to obtain different opinions.

I hate the "me tarzan, you jane" POV. You do not see this in yourself. From your wifes perspective, (and this is all from what you have typed) this is how she gets back at you. By ignoring your requests. daily. This issue will not go away.

One of you needs to make the decision to be the first to step up to the plate and facilitate change.

Lets pursue the difference in how woman and men look at this..

When I truely feel loved, respected, and appreciated, my H never has to got to great lengths to get me to:
1. See his "side"

2. Change my behavior to make him happy, or meet him half way and comprise so we BOTH feel like one isn't the loser, and the other the winner. The policy of joint agreement is a very good procedure.

Whats in it for your wife, to digress to you? To change for you?

I agree...the house shouldn't be a mess. I agree that a spouse who does not hold a job outside of the job at home should WANT and be WILLING to handle the larger % of the household responsibilities.

Find out why your W doesn't feel this way. That is the place to start.

Oh boy, I was really pulling for you but this comment is screaming what has she got to complain about she has it good. Yes she doesn't get paid as in an actual paycheck you can touch. A paycheck that shows how much your hard work is worth.

Did you miss what I posted earlier?

Every once in a while I felt unappreciated and I would talk to my husband about this. This is how I explained it to him. He goes to work and get a paycheck (validation). When he does something for his co-workers he gets an atta boy (validation). He does well and gets a yearly raving written review (validation) and a raise (validation) and a bonus (validation). I have no co-works, no boss, no paycheck no review. I just have to know I am doing a good job. Do you see my point? You are the only one that can give her feedback that will truly mean anything to her. If it is mostly negative then why should she bother?

The key here is she just has to know she is doing a good job.

You have no idea how much faith and trust your wife has in you. You want to talk about a leap of faith; she gave up a career trusting that you will follow through on your commitment to her. She trusts that you will not leave her high and dry some day. DH and I talked about this just last year. There was a couple we knew that was getting a divorce. The plan was for her to be a SAHM. He promised her when they moved down here he would get a good paying job, even 2 so that she could stay home with their son. It never happened. She worked part time then full time. It’s a good thing she did because they were here for 3 years when the marriage broke up. She would have had to start all over. I also put all my faith in my husband. My leap of faith has been a good one but in today’s society it is a BIG gamble. Your wife must have a lot of faith in you and that says a lot about the both of you. Do you realize that she is in a submissive role? She has to count on you for the income. I know for me there were times where I felt useless because I didn’t financially contribute to the family.

Thank you mvg. This is the kind of feedback I was hoping to receive here and not a bunch of head nodding that I am right and my wife is wrong. I've followed much of the advice given to me here, but yet most of the others want to paint me as 'Tarzan' which is so not the kind of person I am at all. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />


I'm here to hear all opinions. That's why I'm here. Again, me and my wife have moved past this issue. This morning I made sure and let her know that I noticed and appreciate how she has put more effort into the housework the last couple of days. I know it will come up again as most common issues do in most marriages, but when it does I'll be more prepared and will have better tools to deal with it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Just a little feedback from a SAHM on this comment. I don't know if you actually said this or are just paraphrasing so this is only if this is actually how you said it.

I would take this as a negative. By saying she is putting more effort it reads she wasn't putting in enough effort before. Instead it would be more helpful to just say "Honey you are doing a great job, thanks for making my life easier."


Also I wanted to say something else. Many years ago when the kids were young my husband gave me a framed picture and poem for mother's day. It is a famous poem.

One hundred years from now

It will not matter what kind of car I drove,

What kind of house I lived in,

How much money I had in my bank account,

Nor what my clothes looked like.

But one hundred years from now

The world may be a little better

Because I was important

In the life of a child.
~Dr. Forest E. Witcraft

(Yes, feel free to take this idea and use it this mother’s day. Put it with a picture of the kids in a frame. She will LOVE it!)

At the time I thought it was a wonderful gift and showed me he appreciated my mothering skills and what I did for the kids. Now with a child in high school that is about to turn 15 I can start to see what impact my mothering had. I am the main caregiver but couldn’t do such a good job without my husband. We are a team.

Yes it is stressful coming home to a messy house. I get frustrated when I can't get things done. I just have to keep reminding myself that my most important job is raising 4 children to make sure they are good, responsible self sufficient adults. Unfortunately you won't know how good of a job you have done until they are adults! When we look back to the early years we don't remember what the house looked like or how much I got done. We remember what the kids did, what we did as a family etc. We have an advantage that some people don't. We have a 5 year old and we realize how fast the other 3 grew up. No sweating the small stuff, they grow up so fast we don't want to miss a thing.

BTW you said something about studying, are you in school? We did that too. When we were where you are now I stayed home, DH worked full time, commuted over an hour each way and went to school 2 nights a week. It was very stressful for both of us but we made it.

As for your wife working on the school yearbook; GREAT! It is also great that you are so supportive. She needs something outside the kids to exercise her brain. SAHM mush brain is sometimes frustrating. You forget things you used to know. Gotta stretch the brain.

Go watch Oprah or something instead of trying to figure me out. You are so off the mark here it's ridiculous. I wear a suit and tie to interviews and funerals. I get my hair cut once every couple of months. I'm a causal, laid back network engineer that is wearing jeans today and an untucked shirt. I'm an average joe. It's entertaining how some of you lonely people get off on attempting to bash someone's character in a public forum when you don't know the first thing about them. I don't have any enemies and if we worked in the same office we would probably get a long great. I love talking to other women at work about these types of issues. I know I have a lot to learn and I'm learning every day which is why I'm here asking questions, but if you're actually trying to be productive and hopefully pass on some words of wisdom in your 30 years of experience to any men that happen to read your post you will be disappointed to know that no man will listen to this kind of tripe.

It doesn't matter how many times I keep saying that my wife and I made up, I sincerely apologized, I'll try harder in the future... it will never be good enough for some of you who just want to do battle. mvg so far is the only one that has paid attention to this fact. The fact that I took the advice from you all and apologized to my wife for my poor communication. But again, it isn't good enough. I honestly think for some of you the only way you will stop attacking me is if I completely and totally agree with every thing said by every woman here. The likelihood of that happening is about the same as you agreeing with everything I've said. Ain't gonna happen.

Thank you catperson. This is the kind of response that will get a positive reaction from a man. You are telling your impression of my situation based on my posts here without being rude. I do also apologize for my comments last night. I became angry and frustrated and did not respond in a very godly way. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> Neither have I responded in a godly way already this morning to sledbabe. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> As my former pastor used to say, "it's that ooooooold sin nature."

I think I have mentioned several times in this forum how much I appreciate the work my wife does. I've told her countless times how tough her job is and how I would never want to trade with her. That I appreciate that she is sacrificing so we can raise our own children. She thanks me for carrying the burden of being the sole financial provider. We have a very balanced relationship as far as 'power' goes. I'm from Texas and she is from California. We were raised very differently on what roles a husband and wife should have in marriage and it has created a nice balance, although with some challenges along the way.


Ha! My marriage is about as far from that as possible. She is a SAHM and I earn the money, but that's where the similarities end. My wife is a very strong person and has a strong personality. If anyone 'runs' the house it's my wife. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> As I've said many times here the 'power balance' is extremely equal in our marriage. Neither of us dominate the other.. ever. I think the problem with the negative reactions I've gotten here have to do with the way I write. If you knew me chances are we'd get along great and you'd think me and my wife are doing a great job in our marriage and that we have the right attitude. We have our problems obviously, but are attitude is to NEVER GIVE UP! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


No, but she doesn't seem to be depressed or upset or anything. I'm not sure why everyone thinks she has a problem. The reason she stopped cleaning up recently was due to her being sick, my kids being sick and some crazy deadlines with the yearbook team. The problem was communication. I wasn't really aware of all of this. I mean, I knew, but I didn't appreciate the impact this would have and for how long it would have an impact (over a week).


I'm truly sorry for my rude comment(s) last night. I am an @ss for saying what I said. I'm sure you are a sweet woman with loads of good advice for a young man like myself that has only been married for 6 years. We both got a little fiesty, but hopefully we both have a better idea now where the other is coming from. Again, I do appreciate the time and the heart you put into your comments. This takes a lot of time to do!!!

I can't believe you are letting a little clutter rent all this space in your head...let alone put this kind of stress on a marriage. It's clutter, for goodness sakes, not infidelity or a brain tumor.

Clutter bugs you? Maybe your wife gets off on it...maybe she has better orgasms when she is not getting all bent over a pile of junk mail sitting on the kitchen counter. Who is to say your way is the way to be? If your aversion to clutter on a 1-10 scale is a 9...maybe she has an aversion to your being anal-nit-picky over something as benign to her as junk mail on a desk or counter top and her aversion ranks in at 107!!!

You know, clutter bugs me too and my H is like your wife when it comes to clutter-build up. So what? I find the time to take care it (20 minutes) and I probably work more hours than you do.

All you have to do is say, "Honey this clutter is frustrating me so I am going to deal with it now. Would you make my supper or do one of my other chores while I organize?" You do other chores around the house--just trade one off.

They would nod in EMPATHY with me. Just as you are empathizing with my wife. Just as now I am empathizing with my wife and she is with me after we have discussed this matter.


I am looking for input from anyone that takes the time to read all of what I wrote. Do you really think on a forum like this I expected a bunch of men to respond? I asked for the fellas to jump in, but I correctly predicted this would not be the case. I really wanted to see what other women thought anyway as I'm pretty sure I know how the men think. This forum is clearly the woman's domain and my original intention was to see what other women would say about my situation. Needless to say I was surprised by the hostility by some of you.


You clearly haven't read about anything I've said to my wife about this. You simply focus on the negative and attack. Not very helpful.


Again, you only read what you want to read that fits your agenda of making me into a caveman. My 'requests' for her to do a better job at cleaning the house are maybe every few months if that. Daily? You just don't want to listen and enjoy exaggeration. Like I've said ad nauseam I rarely make 'requests' of her. She makes many, many more requests of me than I do of her. She's not 'getting back at me' like it seems would be your plan. What good would that do? What good would it do if my wife made a request to me and I simply ignore her request to get back at her.. for making a request? This makes no sense as you make no sense.


Wow. How many times do I have to repeat what my wife and I discussed?


So where do you mention how a man looks at this as you said you would pursue? Nada. As usual, the woman's needs come first THEN you'll be agreeable to him and see his side. Notice how you didn't say 'when my husband truly feels loved, respected and appreciated...'

If mama's happy then everyone's happy. There is a reason that phrase rings true and you just demonstrated it.


<sigh> She knew she had been slacking off her agreed upon duties, but I didn't communicate well enough with her to realize how heavy her load was that week. Geez.


This was all I was hoping to see when I originally posted
in this forum. This summarizes exactly how I feel. Most of you tend to agree, but for whatever reason it is not ok for me to feel this way. It's ok for a woman so make this statement, but not for me. <shrug>


She feels this way to a point, but not as much as I would like <gasp>. Just as she doesn't feel I do enough in some areas to her liking. This is normal and we are working through our differences and finding a balance. We are trying to follow the model set by our former paster. She is responsible for the home 100% of the time I'm at work. I'm responsible for my work as a provider 100% of the time I'm at work. We divide the load evenly when I get home. I always put one child down to bed and regularly bathe them at night as well. I play with them as soon as I get home after they finish dinner until it's time to go to bed. He said her responsibility should be to care for the children, prepare dinner and keep the home in order while I'm at work. My responsibility is of course to be a good provider and bring home enough money to keep the home running smoothly. The question is what exactly is meant by 'keeping the home in order'? That is what we have to work out and we are making good progress.

Incorrect. This comment is merely countering your claim that a SAHM doesn't get paid. If you want to twist my true intention to attack me I understand as you have a lot of company here. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />



So having someone else pay for all of your worldly needs doesn't? You're saying it means nothing? When me and my wife get in a heated discussion about these types of issues and in anger I say that I pay for everything she quickly quiets me and tells me that she works too and that her work also 'pays' half of everything. And she is absolutely correct. So someone actually disagrees with my wife? First time for everything I suppose.


Actually I did miss that post somehow. It's hard responding to everyone in detail so I apologize for missing this. Yes, I do totally see what you're saying here. I agree with you and just mentioned to my wife this week that I'd do a better job of acknowledging her hard work that she does. I have no disagreements here. However, to stretch this and say this means a SAHM doens't get paid? That is simply not true. Ask my wife. She'll be the first to tell me that although she didn't deposit the check to enable me to pay a bill, she paid for half of that bill through her work in the home and I totally agree. I bet you would feel unappreciated if you thought you did not get paid, although I don't know how you could look around and not realize it. Is your H paying for your food, clothing, shelter and entertainment as a favor to you? It's payment, plain and simple... in my eyes anyway. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />



I agree with what you have said here and this puts a lot of pressure on the H to be a good provider. I want to be appreciated and respected for taking on this challenge and not letting my family down. Just as my wife wants to be appreciated and respected for taking on the challenge of being a SAHM. I don't have any argument with this.

This morning I made sure and let her know that I noticed and appreciate how she has put more effort into the housework the last couple of days. I know it will come up again as most common issues do in most marriages, but when it does I'll be more prepared and will have better tools to deal with it.

GREAT! However I do agree with
Just a little feedback from a SAHM on this comment. I don't know if you actually said this or are just paraphrasing so this is only if this is actually how you said it.I would take this as a negative. By saying she is putting more effort it reads she wasn't putting in enough effort before. Instead it would be more helpful to just say "Honey you are doing a great job, thanks for making my life easier."

This is also great advice!

All you have to do is say, "Honey this clutter is frustrating me so I am going to deal with it now. Would you make my supper or do one of my other chores while I organize?" You do other chores around the house--just trade one off.

Rhindle also notice ALL the things your W does, not just this one issue. Once you start REALLY noticing, paying attention, committing it to memory, commenting, you'll realize in the grand scheme of things she's a GREAT spouse. Also the more she's appreciated,the better she'll feel about your relationship, and you will too. I promise! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

You've gotten some good advise. From what you've said you realize that and will put into action! ATTA Boy!

You've also commented that there is some advice, posts, whatever that you don't particularly care for. As you know with an open forum you get all degrees of opinions. It's great that you are seeking advice, I admire that in a person, BUT IF I were you I wouldn't argue your point with someone. Take what is helpful, ignore what won't work for you. All the folks that have posted to you are good and kind people. Some advise just doesn't work for all.

Good luck on your journey. And please do read the articles and books available here. They can improve a M so much it's unbelievable, IF you follow the plan the Harley's lay out.

I'll check back to see how things are going for you.

If this is the case then I truly cannot win. I told her that I noticed how much cleaner things have been in the last few days since this incident occurred and she thanked me for recognizing her efforts, I hugged her and told her Happy Valentine's day. How this could be taken as a negative is beyond me, but I'm glad my wife does not share your feelings. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


Which was exactly what this whole thing is about. Should I pretend it didn't happen? What good does that do?


Why? So she doesn't have to hear that she may not have been doing as great of a job before? That is life. She knows she wasn't. Now I know why she wasn't and we came to an understanding. She is feeling better now, finished with her time consuming project and she is spending more time on the housework and everyone is happy. I'm happy that the house is cleaner and she is happy that I'm acknowledging her efforts and reinforced that this incident was a learning and growing process. Are you the type that think they shouldn't keep score in little kids sports so no one loses? You learn from your mistakes. If you go through life and everyone treats you like you've never made a mistake or have fallen short then you'll have much bigger problems down the road.



I agree this is great!


Amen!


Well put.


I'm studying for a technical certification exam that is an 8 hour lab of hands on with the equipment. It is extremely demanding and expensive to take and requires expert level knowledge about the equipment and configuration. It's has been and will be taking a big bite out of our family time. This is part of this recent problem too. Since I haven't been home I'm not as in tune with what is going and and didn't realize the load my wife was bearing that week. If I would have I never would have started this thread. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


Yup, she enjoys photography and children so she was a shoe in for it. It will also get her known in the school for a future job even she mentioned. I do support it and wish I had communicated better with her last week as I was not happy with the amount of time she was spending on it (literally 8 hours a day) and of course not taking care of her other responsibilities. If I had known the details of what was going on I wouldn't be here typing today. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

This contributes nothing to the conversation.

Ahhhh, rhin, I got your attention. Go watch Oprah...ha ha ha...I don't get the chance to watch T.V.

Enough women on this post have stated that your "message" has a certain bent to it. If you would take away anythimg from whats typed on here, maybe you would look inside yourself.

Being too close to the trees to see the forest rhin. I really am in the same "camp" as you when it comes to the cleanliness thing...just that it seems you choose not to see that.

My statements come from many agrguements, tears, discussions about exactly how annoying it is to want order, and not have it.

You are easily offended and agitated. I was able to get under your skin quite easily. My guess is you come across the same way to your wife.

Creating an atmosphere of harmony, GENUINE respect, and understanding of what prompts the ones we love to hear us, and hopefully comply to at least SOME of our wishes requires a level of kindness, empathy, and the ability to ...what did the person above say? Not sweat the small stuff.


Housework?... very small stuff dude.

Terminally ill child/loved one..a biggie. Death of someone you love? Big one. Loss of a friendship, or a marriage? Big one.

Rhin, I have no agenda with you, or your issue.Catagorically women are relagated to the grunt work in life, even you, oh enlightened one, must know this. Catagorically, men have been relegated to the responsibility of financial support provider.

Get the kids involved. A 5 year old is quite capable of doing many things. Set an example. Lead by example. Be the good, kind, fair man you seem to tell us you are.

Take a different tack. Your W is a person, not an appliance.
Re-read this in a couple of weeks. If you have a sister, have her read this. You do come off like a caveman.

And, to answer your quip about me appreciating my hubby?

You should be so lucky to have me as a friend or wife. Why? I care about what makes him happy...I know how much compromise is required to keep a marriage happy.

I forgave his affair, and a lot of other painful, hurtful things. I don't hold it over his head, I really, really show him just how much I love him...by prioritizing my needs and desires, and balancing what I want and need, to what he wants and needs.

POJA. I don't think you read it.

And, I am not lonely, well sometimes, but with 3 jobs, I wish I had more alone time. Assuming we all watch Oprah? You think I am the "typical" female?

I run heavy equipment rhin. I also run the construction company I work for. I spent most of last summer on a huge site job, digging and installing drainage.I oversee 18 MALE workers..I am a tiny little thing, and I have to deal with the male animal everyday. Had to work twice as hard to get half the pay and recognition. Do I come off as somewhat of a feminist? You betcha. A spade is a flat shovel...

Anyway, peace be with you. I wish you godspeed on your endeavors.

I commented on this earlier, but I would agree that moving forward this is the best way to go. It's just since this incident just happened I said it the way I did and my wife had no problem with it.


After reading how pieta started her reply I pretty much blew off everything else including this. It may be good advice, but people will be less likely to take it when they attack you.


I KNOW she is a great spouse contrary what many here seem to believe. What God put together let no man separate... I do need to show her more appreciation about everything and will take your word that things will only improve. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


Woohoo! I have indeed gotten a lot of good advice between a lot of garbage as well, but the advice I've gotten is excellent!


You're right and I really showed my @ss here a few times when I should have just ignored them. I've been spending more time crafting responses to the haters than I should be. I will just ignore them from this point forward.

I like your attitude. Any man would listen to this kind of advice presented in this manner. Some of you other ladies should take note. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


Thank you and I will. I've read a lot of the stuff here in the past and didn't even realize it! This place is an excellent resource!

I'm glad things have worked out for you, and that you and your W will communicate more openly based on what you've learned at MB.

I would like to say just one thing, about:

I don't know if you really believe that those of us who called you out on your attitude truly hate you, but I hope that is not true. Because (1) I'm pretty sure no one who comes here has any reason to get that emotionally invested in another poster. Those who posted opinions that you designate as 'hating' you were trying to get you to look at your situation from another viewpoint. Period. You chose not to do that, your right. But there's no hatred around here. Dismay that you're not willing to address the issue, but no hatred.

And (2) I worry that you might do this in real life - assign people into labels - when they take you to task. My H does this, and it can create quite a maelstrom, especially when he does so undeservingly. Anyone who questions him automatically becomes a suspect themselves. Usually based on no valid reason, except that he's trying to deflect any ill thoughts of him onto someone else. Just today, I had to ask him about something he offered to do 2 weeks ago and still hasn't done, but instead of owning up to it, he brings out half a dozen reasons the other people involved are screwing up, immoral, or doing something illegal. Just because he doesn't want to consider or admit that he might be at fault.

I'm not saying you're doing that. Just that it might apply. If so, you might want to think about what it gets you. In my H's case, it just keeps him being angry and vindictive and in a generally bad mood all the time, based out of his shame. If he would just stop and admit his fault once in a while, get it over with - much like a teenager caught smoking a cigarette - it would be over with.

JMO

Why would you feel attacked? Did I say something hurtful or disrespectful? I was just trying to make a point and tell the truth as I see it: that there is always more than one way of looking at everything and quite often those ways are at extreme poles.

Some people like vanilla and some chocolate. If my H kept on forgetting to buy the vanilla, I'd stop at the market and get some for myself. I wouldn't let this kind of nonsense rent all this space in my head. It's just ice cream. If I found myself making more of it, I would have to be honest and ask myself WHAT IS REALLY GOING ON HERE???

Obviously your wife does not have the same view of clutter as you do and I do--that it frustrates the crap out of us--or she would take care of it, no matter how overwhelmed she was, she would find a way. Does that make her wrong and us right? Of course not. She has other priorities where her time is concerned.

My H was a SAHD for five years with our third child. If I had a choice between him doing ANYTHING around the house or reading to the child, I would choose reading. That is my priority...but I was not the one home with her. I could respectfully let him know that I hoped he would read to her because it was my priority--but to criticize and judge his priorities or demand that they be the same as mine simply because I was the breadwinner is disrespectful. So I just read to her myself when I came home. I made that my number one priority.

Rhindle,I'm glad you are paying attention!

I like your attitude. Any man would listen to this kind of advice presented in this manner.

Thank you for the compliement, HOWEVER it comes from alot of hardship, trial and error and heeding great advice.

Now a bit of a 2x4....as a learning experience.... Some of you other ladies should take note.

NOT NECESSARY to say. Learn to stop when you are ahead! IMO that is just asking to be bit on the butt!

Keep up your GOOD work, and learn from here.

That's why I posted here because I know there are those of you out there with MUCH more experience than me!


Yes, that was really unnecessary and I suppose I keep throwing gas on the fire I'm trying to put out with comments like that. Sorry ladies. I guess it was my way of getting in one last jab to those who have seemed to really enjoy attacking me which was a bit juvenile. Sorry again. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />


Thank you and I will! Got the wife a new camera lens for Valentine's Day and some chocolate roses for the kids to give to her, watched The Notebook together for the first time after the kids went to bed and we both cried our eyes out! It was great!

Thanks to everyone here for your input whether I liked it or not. I honestly had no idea this thread would get so much attention. I was going to be HAPPY if I got 2 or 3 replies. Never dreamed it would be 5 pages worth of responses! Obviously I hit a nerve with a lot of women here, but I have learned a great deal about how you think and operate. Hopefully you may have learned a bit about how a man thinks as well and everyone can walk away having learned something. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I think I will stop monitoring this thread as my wife and I have been getting along great all week long now and I can't even count the hours I've spent formulating responses to each and every post (until the last few).

Thanks again ladies!

Good luck on your journey!

Well, in case you're still reading...

Maybe it IS because you're a man that you feel this is some sort of competition; I've read in many places that men see exchanges as win/lose, while women see them as share. I had hoped that you would realize we have nothing to gain by asking you to question your stance. We are here because we want to share viewpoints and open our eyes - everyone's - to new ways of seeing things. And in what seems to be at least 95% of the responses to you, what you are saying here is coming across as very 'I know what's right and why can't you understand that?'

I don't give a fig if you feel like you taught us gals something or not. I do care about whether your wife has a lifetime ahead of her with a man who is not willing to question his beliefs and opinions. People have mentioned again and again that your way of writing, at least, comes across as very chauvinistic; and that that attitude or belief system may be great for you, but will be disastrous for a long-term happy marriage; eventually, your wife will get fed up with you.

I like to tell my H - who has a big problem dealing with people and is very confrontational - if 99 people tell you something, and you are the lone person out of 100 who believes one way, wouldn't it behoove you to at least question to yourself why you are the only person believing as you do?

I wish you well.

Awesome gift (the camera lens). I bet she loved it. It also shows her you are paying attention to what hobbies she loves. I hope you realize most of us were only trying to help. For me I was, for the most part posting for you to see your wife's point of view. I can empathize what you are going through but not fully understand because I am not in your shoes. I know my DH works his butt off to provide for his family. I tell him how much I appreciate what he does as often as I can. I specifically tell him "Honey, I am so grateful to have you as a husband. I really appreciate you getting up and going to work every day whether you want to or not. I am so proud of you!" I tell him this because it is the truth and everyone needs to hear they are appreciated. I also buy him cards every once in a while telling him the same things. I will either sneak into his car after he is asleep and put it on his seat or I will put it somewhere I know he will find it in the house. I will put it in with the daily mail so when he goes through it he will find it. Just something small that shows he is loved and admired. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />