Frozen...Mr. W and I did you and Patriot the honor of staying out of your issues here...I would respectfully request the same from the two of you where Mr. W and I are concerned...

Thank you Mel and Mopey...Your words are much appreciated! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Mrs. W

Thank you for your counsel Amazin...I agree with you that Mortarman's thread is a great one! Mr. W and Mortarman are personal friends-they talk on the phone pretty regularly...It might be wise for the both of us to re-read that thread...Thanks for the suggestion!

Mrs. W

Hi ((((Mrs. W.))))

Have you read the book, Wild At Heart?

John Eldredge says in it, the deepest cry from every woman's heart is, "Am I lovely?"

Every woman needs to know that she is exquisite, exotic, and chosen.

Yes, we want to be cherished, for all of our femininity, and beauty!

And on V Day, we want our DH to bring home something beautiful or sentimental, as a token, of what our feminity inspires w/in them.

Neglecting V day, is not a small thing.

He is neglecting a very tender and important need.

John Eldredge, says that the question that men are haunted by is, "Am I really a man? Have I got what it takes...when it counts?"

I believe this is why it is most important to men that their W's respect them.

Maybe if you explain to him that being cherished is as important to you as being respected is to him, he might "get it" better.

~ Marsh

PS: I read an article once that said that men don't like to receive gifts. Which would explain why we never know what to get them...they don't want us to. LOL

PPS: Amazin, That poem made me tear up. I'm gonna have to read your thread to see how your WW reacted to it.

Excellent post Marsh-a lot of insight, that really resonates with me...I have not read that book, but it sounds like one that I need to get A.S.A.P....I will certainly try those words with Mr. W...Thank you so much!

Mrs. W

Oh definitely get this book Mrs. W. You and Mr. W should both read it. My DH loved it and then taught on it in our church's men's group because he felt like every man should read it. It was that good.

I'm sorry your V-Day was so tough. V-Day's always tough on my DH because V-Day is the 14th and my birthday is three days later on the 17th. There were several years where he remembered V-Day but FORGOT my birthday! Ouch! LOL

He doesn't forget anymore. He gets it now how these days are important to me. Took him long enough though! But since his "period of insanity" he bends over backwards to do it right.

have not read that book, but it sounds like one that I need to get A.S.A.P....I will certainly try those words with Mr. W...Thank you so much!

****************************
It(the book) would make a nice belated Valentines gift for Mr.W. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

We don't "talk" much but I can truly empathize w/ you.
I hope Atlanta turns out to be special for you.

Here's a little piece from Mortormans "Roles of husbands and wives."

Becoming Your Wife's Sanctifier...(Ephesians 5:25-29)

Okay, here’s part two of the roles for the husband. Becoming your wife’s sanctifier. Many men are shocked by what they wind up with after they are married. They thought they were marrying this quiet person…she hasn’t stopped talking yet. He thought he was marrying a submissive woman…she started bossing him around right after the wedding. We men had a perspective on what we thought we were getting into and who we were getting into it with…only to be highly disappointed. Many men say “She’s changed.” Actually, what has happened is that she changed back. Back to what she was before she put on her best face for you while you were dating.

“Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself. For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church.”

Scripture is saying that a husband should love his wife like Christ loves the church in order to sanctify her and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word. Now, I will spend the rest of this installment tearing that sentence apart in order to find out what it means to sanctify our wives.

God not only wants us to be our wives’ savior, He wants us to be Her sanctifier. The word sanctification is one of those big words that basically means “to set apart as unique or special.” In the Bible many times, God took the vilest things and sanctified them for His own use. When a man sanctifies a woman, he sets her apart from her past. When we were dating and we decided to ask our wives to marry us, we made some glorious promises (most un-kept…but we meant well!). And those promises were of what we would do together, where we would go, what kind of life we would have. What we were doing was sanctifying our wives from their past. In the marriage ceremony, a great disconnect happens between a previous relationship of hers (usually to the wife’s father and mother) and she moves to a new relationship with her husband. And the only reason she should do that is that her future with him looks better then the one she had with her father.



That's why husbands should do little things for their wives like... make a big deal over valentines day... or your anniversary…. Birthday… etc…

To make your wife feel like she’s special…

I didn’t understand how important that was until recently…
And Mrs. W's reaction to Mr. W's valentines day efforts seem to confirm how important they are to wives. We as husbands need to remember that.

Mel,

I wasn't being indirect. I thought it was obvious that I was addressing Mrs. Wondering's post. The intent behind my post to her was to focus on solutions, rather than deeming one spouse "right" or "wrong".

Regardless of any disagreements that Mrs. Wondering and I have had in the past, marriage is important to me and I would love for anyone's marriage to be as rewarding and satisfying as possible. Believe it or not, I sincerely do care.

She made it clear that she isn't interested and that's fine, so I won't discuss it with her any further.


Mopey,



Sure, it's possible that someone could use that as an excuse not to meet needs. But...what if someone actually IS using one or all of the three destructive methods that Dr. Harley mentioned (not implying that you are - I really don't have enough information from what you said with which to form an opinion).



I think that it depends on how being "upset" is expressed...not the fact that one spouse simply feels upset that makes it a demand.

The points you raise make an interesting topic of conversation.

No, it was not obvious to me or I wouldn't have asked. It was right under my post with my name in the reply, otherwise addressed to no one. Thanks for the clarification.

Hey Mrs. W!!!

You know I adore you both, and none of this is said to take sides, cuz everyone has negative aspects of their personality...my list of flaws is not any shorter than anyone else's...that's fo' sho'!!!

BUT, I have read through all of your posts and the responses, and while many of the woman on here totally get where you are coming from, the male posters are sorta falling back on the "it's just a guy being clueless" thing. I am not knocking you guys AT ALL...it would be my first response as well. And I know a lot of guys have issues with meeting their wives/GFs expectations in this area. I am very lucky that W2S has always been very kind and loving in that respect. I always felt spoiled by him when it comes to this stuff, so it makes my idiotic A and re-writing of history all the more sickening.

But, in this case, I am concerned, because while Mr. W is a great guy and husband in many apsects, the fact that he continues this pattern is not at all IMO "just being clueless" or "just a guy thing." He is way too smart and very knowledgeable in the MB ways for that sort of excuse. Not to say other men who "don't get this chick stuff" are not smart also...but in this case, I don't think Mr.W can play that card, yanno. I really don't know what he is thinking, nor will I take a guess. But he should really seek guidance from Dr. Harley one-on-one to figure it out.

I hope you guys can have a great trip together and can find a way past this particular instance, but then going forward he must address this issue. It is the extraordinary care that is the foundation of the MB principles and a wonderful M, and I wish you guys the very best as you work together to try and make sure this does NOT happen again and again.

Be safe on your trip and try to have some fun!!!

I always forget about that "Re" thing. I usually just read to the bottom of a thread and then hit reply.

Thanks for pointing that out. That's pretty useful communication information and will probably save me much misunderstanding in the future.

Hope you and yours are well.

Thanks so much; same to you. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hey Froz,

Well, I must admit that I have been guilty at times of using LBs as a knee jerk reaction before when my needs weren't getting met, especially before I found MB, but not all the time.

It was especially hard for me after d-day because of the constant lies and multiple d-days, so I was basically in a perpetual state of unhappiness a lot of the time. I was so upset with him (my DH) most of the time because of this, that it was nearly impossible for me not to LB after repeated attempts of respectful requests. When someone drags you through what he drug me through, it's hard to be respectful but I did try many times.

Other than LBing, I could have taken the option to plan B him or plan D him when the respectful request didn't work. I wasn't getting upset over him not taking out the trash or something. I was getting upset over getting affair timelines and such from him. And when I first replied on this subject, it came from the pain of what has happened to me since d-day.


I don't really want to argue this point because he was being a real chithead when it came to my recovery needs, so much so that we had to separate because of it.

My "recovery needs" that I asked for were not going to be POJA'd. I didn't get a say in his affairs and he wasn't getting a say in what I needed to recover from them either. If he doesn't want to do these things, he can leave the marriage. That's where I'm at on that.

Now if we're talking about any other kind of need, like Valentine's day, then that would be a little different. I'm not sure what I would do, other than try POJA. I suppose I would have to go so far as separating if repeated attempts at respectful request are dismissed and it was extremely important to me. I suppose I wouldn't do that either unless a lot of needs were being dismissed. I'm sure I would be losing love for him though over dismissing my needs, no matter if he thought they were insignificant.


I've got a bunch going on over the next week so I don't know how much I'll be able to get back to discussing this further with you, but I'll sure try.

This topic is interesting.

Hey there PM! Well yes, it does sound like I MUST get this book...I've read it discussed here before, by Mimi I think...Perhaps I'll check to see if they have it at the airport tomorrow before our plane takes off...Thank you for your sweet sentiments! Btw, in case I'm busy on our trip and am not around that much, Happy Early Birthday! I hope it is a GREAT one!

Nia, So nice to hear from you! Thank you for the warm wishes...Hmmm, dunno about getting the book FOR Mr. W, he still has yet to begin reading the two books I got him for Christmas...He really is tough to buy for...

Wow Amazin, thank you for going through and picking out the fine points from Mortarman's thread that speak to this issue...I sincerely appreciate you taking the time-very thoughtful...That whole thread is such a treasure, isn't it? I've really got to make time to re-read it-it's been so long ago now that I originally read it-I know I could certainly use a refresher!

And last, but certainly not least, LaLa...Well said my friend...You have quite a knack for getting it all out there...I agree very much with all that you said...I can't change him obviously, I can only hope and pray that he understands how deeply this stuff cuts, and that he finds it in himself to care and insure it doesn't keep happening...Thank you for posting...It means a lot to me...

All...I really appreciate the encouragement, support and suggestions that I received from all of you today...This is a truly great community...We leave tomorrow and will be gone for a week...I'm sure we'll be around from time to time to check in...Your prayers would be greatly appreciated!

Warmest Regards,

Mrs. W

Have a great trip Mrs. W. We'll sure miss you here.

And I agree that you should be able to express your needs and concerns here like everyone else. It's a great place to work out stuff like this I think.

And Amazin, I LOVED your poem. I never received one myself but would deeply touched if I did. I hope she appreciate it. I know I would.

Well, for what it's worth, I didn't get anything from WW for Valentines...
She's just so damn thoughtless sometimes...

Mopey,

Sorry it took me so long to respond. I've had some kind of kick-your-butt flu.


Oh, me too. I don't think I know anyone who hasn't.

Does that make it understandable? I think it does. But whether or not it is a justifiable response is irrelevant to my point. The point is that it doesn't accomplish anything (except maybe a temporary release for me).

I find it so interesting to read the Basic Concepts. It's all laid out in such simple terms - simple to understand, so hard to apply, yes?

And so hard to read them and see that *this* is what Dr. Harley is talking about...he's talking about ME in this situation.

And whether or not the issue is Valentine's Day or Recovery needs, if there is something that I want from my spouse, telling your spouse, "Give me this or else" (a selfish demand), "You're an idiot or a selfish jerk for not giving me this (a disrespectful judgment) or yelling, screaming, shaming him or whatever...it isn't going to be likely that my spouse will respond to this by suddenly realizing how much I deserve whatever it is I'm trying to get from him.

Dr. Harley says it clearly here...



and then goes on to say...



Which says to me, not only will I NOT get what I want by using these tactics, I will make my chances of getting what I want in the future very unlikely because my spouse will no longer be in love with me.

It's the Giver and Taker in action.

I gave.
Now I feel owed.
Because I feel owed...I'm entitled to treat my spouse any way I wish in order to try to force him to give me what I want/need.

And it just doesn't work.

Not only does it NOT work, it engages my spouse's Taker. Now he feels as though he has been wronged and he only feels more entitled to do whatever it is he was doing that hurt me.

It's a vicious cycle.

In most cases, I can clearly see how POJA would EASILY resolve the problem.

The error lies in thinking that one spouse's interests in the matter directly contradict the other's.

Since the topic of this thread is Valentine's Day, I'll use that for an example.

Conflict: Patriot waited until the last minute to get me a gift and I felt unimportant and not very special (he didn't really do that, it's just an example).

Now I could respond to this by punishing him (maybe giving him the silent treatment for a few days so he got the point) or I could LB him in some other way, but is that really going to make him feel like using his Giver? Probably not.

I could use Dr. Harley's suggestions.

I could tell him how I felt about it, without blaming or criticizing (which would only serve in his feeling defensive) and I could just simply TELL him what I want and ask him what the problem is with his giving it to me.

Maybe in my making it safe for him to discuss the matter openly with me, he reveals that his concern is about finances. He feels that I LB him on a regular basis with frequent shopping trips.

Again, this is the point at which the negotiation process could go awry, if I choose to be defensive after hearing his concerns.

Maybe I tell him that if he weren't such a tightwad, he wouldn't worry about that. At that point, there is no longer a negotation going on, because I'm telling him that his concerns are trivial.

Or I could continue to focus on the goal of getting resolution for this issue that addresses BOTH of our concerns.

If we struck a deal that I would negotiate future shopping trips with him and in return, he would make it a point to shop ahead of time for holidays and try to make them special for me, both spouses have something to gain.

And that's just one solution...there are probably many that would satisfy both spouses.

Most conflicts never even GET to that stage because one or both spouses are not making negotiations safe enough to even reveal the interests of each spouse.

Another interesting thing that I've noticed is that during a successful negotiation, love units are deposited for BOTH spouses just through the process of the negotiation itself - before any shopping trips are made or any gifts have been given...simply because your spouse listened, cared about your perspective and because their interests were even considered.

I can imagine that after having established a pattern of resolving conflict this way, a marriage would drastically improve because conflict would no longer be something that couples avoided (because of the bad feelings that arose from the method of dealing with it), they would begin to tweak and perfect the areas of their lives that one or both were dissatisfied with...sort of like a snowball effect.