Tyk, this is very well said and very true. Plan A was never, ever meant to be a way of life. However, it is the dream plan for your classic conflict avoider. It provides wonderful cover for doing nothing. They can stay in a state of inaction for years on end under the guise of "Plan A." And when someone points out to them that Plan A was not meant to be a way of life, they can always find a reason to hold out a little longer. "my WS agreed to go to counseling last week.." etc, etc every new crumb is an excuse to prolong Plan A....

The Harleys never meant Plan A to be a way of life, that much is certain. Dr. Harley states SIX WEEKS for women and up to 6 months for men, depending on the situation.

That being said, when people come here, they are under no obligation to follow those guidelines. I believe some come here, not to CHANGE their situation, but to CHAT with others. And there is nothing wrong with that at all. It is perfectly within their rights to come here and CHAT and complain about their WS all they want. I mean that sincerely. We all come here for our own reasons, and they have as much right to be here as anyone else, IMO. I wish them well!

It does not prevent those who are SERIOUS about making changes, from making changes. I can tell fairly quickly who is serious and who is not. Sometimes I completely misjudge folks; KLD is one. Even so, I know that my time is better spent with the action oriented; others are better suited to the chatters. Thats ok.

As far as being "strong" and having "self esteem," I don't think any of us is strong when we get hit by the adultery train. None of us. I know I was not. I was flattened on my [censored]. Brought to my knees. My son had died and my 20 year marriage had ended the year before in adultery. What brings STRENGTH is taking ACTION. Taking action, despite my FEAR, made me strong. Feelings FOLLOW ACTION, not the other way around.

I have seen it time and time again, a weak person is magically transformed into DAVID, standing before Goliath, when they make a decision to TAKE ACTION. Like BobPure once said, "I changed from a SERF to a KNIGHT" once he took action. That is what creates strength.

The ones that weaken are the ones that CHOOSE not to act. Their inaction MAKES THEM WEAK. And further harms their self esteem. WEakness is a choice. Everyone has the opportunity to choose STRENGTH over weakness, some would rather indulge in fear. But that is a choice one makes.

I hope a vet comes by to help you but I feel compelled to respond to this:


The objective of Plan A is not to achieve this type of result. It is to (a) stress the affair so that it hopefully ends (which it hasn't in your case) and (b) help you to improve yourself, which isn't measurable in terms of other peoples's responses to it. Your self respect and self worth has to come from YOU. Her talking and eating meals with or without you should have NO BEARING on your self respect, even if she is your spouse. When you can see that, you will have the backbone that you need.

Very well said. Newbies would do well to pay attention to ML.

I agree with the need for healthy constructive anger, but also understand the absence of it. If you take what Harley says "The effects of Betrayal are tantamount to a Rape, or a Death of a Child", it makes sense to me.

Cycling to that anger stage (7 steps of grieving) is different for everyone. We don't all share the same egg timer for when that emotion takes over. The important thing is we do experience it eventually, and express it in a healthy way.

Jo

Hey MEDC,

I haven't read through this all yet. I got to where you posted the above and just wanted to comment.

The Bible never says anger is bad. In fact, Jesus turned the tables in the Temple because he was what???? Angry! So, not only did Jesus feel anger, He even acted on it.

So, for me as a Christian, I cannot buy into the idea that we aren't ever suppose to act angry or even feel angry.

When my anger rose up during tst's affair, I knew that it was righteous anger. I was RIGHT to feel angry. The man who had promised to love, honor, protect, and cherish me had been giving himself emotionally and physically to someone else. It would be WRONG of me to NOT feel anger.

And MEDC, you are right. My anger did give me the "legs" to do what was necessary.

I am on some of the posts that I am sure you are referring to. I am about to pull my hair out. I can't even stomach posting some days. I want to scream, "Get up off the ground and be a WOMAN!"

Hey SMB...I have noticed your advice to posters recently. I am so proud of the work you and TST have done! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

[quoteSo, for me as a Christian, I cannot buy into the idea that we aren't ever suppose to act angry or even feel angry. [/quote]

Exactly, decent people are SUPPOSED to get ANGRY in the face of injustice. That is a sign of DECENCY.

Tabby, I agree with you 100%. I believe that part of the reason my marriage has been restored is BECAUSE I did not lie down and let him wipe mud on me. I was DETERMINED to be a strong woman, in the midst of Plan A, B, D, and FU. And now even in recovery. I will not settle for less than I deserve....a husband who is passionately in love with me. If I can't have that, I really don't want to be married.

So, HOW can we get these women to UNDERSTAND that we are NOT attractive laying at the doorway with mud wiped all over us. I say rise up.

I think, for me, it comes down to my faith. I KNOW that God created me, and designed me with HIS plan. And because of that, I know that I am beautiful and valuable and capable. IF I truly believe that, I CANNOT believe that I am not worthy. (Queenie, do you HEAR me) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> You CANNOT believe both at the same time.

I'm not so sure that would REALLY be hope. I think many people disguise fear and call it hope. Then we can USE "hope" as an excuse for inaction.

I second this book recommendation! I read it when I was DONE Plan Aing, but had to wait out a few things before I could Plan B. I read that book, and knew that was what I needed to be doing until I could go to dark Plan B.

I think those people who find themselves struggling with taking any action or setting any boundaries REALLY need that book.

If you want a PERFECT example of controlled and justified anger toward a group of people not far from a Waywards mindset, just read from the book of Matthew 22 and 23 and look at the righteous anger of Jesus toward the Pharisees. This my friends was anger with a plan. It was never misdirected, and it was never rage!

The one that gets me is when He calls them a whitewashed tomb. Looked good on the outside but everything is dead inside........ Now imagine this being said with controlled anger. Not the pretty pictures we see of Jesus, but much more realistic.

That's all a wayward is as well..... Trying to look good to everyone on the outside but, like I was, dead on the inside.

Mel, I absolutely agree, and you said it so well.

These two slogans keep going through my head:

"Feel the fear, and do it anyway."

"Just do it."

All of us feel the fear. It's what we DO WHILE we are feeling the fear that makes a difference.

EXACTLY!!!

Life's Little Instruction Book says..

Be brave....even if you are not, pretend. Nobody can tell the difference.

Thanks! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I'm not all that concerned with what people choose to do regarding recovery. I try to give the best advice I can and then let it go.

What I think frustrates me is when people complain about the results of their choices, especially when those results were the most likely outcome. That goes for BS and WS's. (and yes, I'm sure I've done it a few times, but I try not to.)

I think having a spine has as much to do with accepting responsibility for your choices as it does with making the right choice.

Hmmmmmm.....I wonder where all my anger fits in this.

I was basically cheated on since I've known my husband, lied to up until just a few months ago. I knocked some stuff around the house a few times dealing with the anger. Even lashed out physically on my husband after d-day #4 after a grueling year of lies and discoveries.

My anger is why my husband is not here now helping me heal because supposedly, I don't communicate my anger appropriately. And now, I am angry because I am left to heal alone from what made me angry in the first place, the affairs, the lies, the lack of my recovery needs being met.

But NOW, he is trying to meet SOME of them. He gets to avoid my anger because I have been told "not to love bust".

Then I hear what SMB said about Jesus "turning over tables" in his righteous anger and Jesus wasn't going through any massive affair betrayals either.

I am honestly confused by all of this. I guess I should have just dumped my husband after the last lie, since lying was a boundary for me.

I do feel frozen in my decision on what to do at this point, wondering if my anger is justified and if I'm doing the right thing at this point by putting up my walls.

Geez......

I'll keep reading.

I think this thread is applicable to cases where the betrayed person reveals themselves to be unwilling to do anything uncomfortable, but then complains when the outcome isn't what they wanted. That's a different case from one where the poor outcome is accepted as the price of not engaging.

In my understanding, healthy anger is a response to a personal boundary being violated.

Some people have a very clear awareness of their boundaries, and are quick to detect violations and defend against them.

For people who have always been this way, it may be hard to understand that other humans exist who have little awareness of their boundaries, and don't recognise gross violations.

People get like this when their boundaries have been trampled on since birth, when they have been consistently violated - physically or emotionally - by people they depend on. As an extreme example, someone who was repeatedly raped by a relative in childhood is quite likely to grow up with unhealthy boundaries in sexual relationships. Another person who wasn't raped, but was consistently scared by the rage and domination of a parent, may well not recognise the inappropriateness of being treated that way by another adult, when they themselves are old enough to marry.

Research suggests that people are born with different personality types - some people are simply wired to be feisty, and others to be submissive.

I'm not suggesting that this means that a boundary-defective person can only expect a doomed outcome; I'm suggesting that they have a different journey to get the point of healthy anger than others.

Ultimately, anger needs to be felt because boundaries are being unfairly violated. But the person has to become aware of their right to boundaries and their right to protect those boundaries. That doesn't happen overnight. Pointing out helpfully that the person is 'weak', 'pathetic', 'spineless' simply serves up exactly the same treatment that they've been suffering all their life, and chances are they'll simply roll over and curl up just as they've always done.

Somewhere in every person is at least a nugget of core value, and that's what has to be appealed to and nurtured.

As I said before, there's a fine line between supporting someone in a slow journey towards healthy assertiveness, and enabling their fear of action. But there's also a fine line between kicking someone's a%% and crushing them underfoot.


TA

{Edited for spelling]

What I also found interesting is that just recently on another thread, a BS who had just found out his wife had an affair with his best friend rearranged all the furniture in his out of anger. No one said anything about that, that I recall.

Also on the same thread the BH physically attacked the offending best friend. No one said anything about that either, except one person who said something along the lines of "not to worry, it'll help the BH and the best friend work out their healing". And that attack went towards the person who had not committed themselves to the marriage.

And again, a long time poster who is in a very similiar situation to mine physically attacked her husband as well after her husband finally came clean with more affairs after a long period of time into recovery. Again, a lot of people were posting to her and no one said anything about it.

I am not condoning physical abuse at all. I also don't condone mental abuse.

When someone is angry over a lie, or another betrayal, how would all of you express that anger, with or without a boundary already in place?

And not to mention, when consoling a wayward who is "disclosing" lies, they're told "expect the BS to be angry".

It's a part of the grief process. What do you do with the anger? Beat a punching bag and then "calmly" say "I'm angry"?