I don't think you should shut up, not at all. I think it would be helpful to YOU to clarify within yourself what you are seeking to accomplish here.

I myself have a powerful desire to help BS's, especially BH's, especially through the initial stages of discovery and D-Day. This is because this site was such an invaluable tool to me at that time. I feel it is a time where a LOT of difference can be made, and I seek to help them in the same fashion that I was helped.

I think you have a similar desire, and I have alot of respect for what you've done and in alot of cases the way you've done it.

HOWEVER (ya, you knew it :P). You get yourself into alot of conflict that really isn't about helping the BS. Its tangential to that purpose, and it is sometimes in fact COUNTER to that purpose. It builds anger in you, but you don't HAVE to go there.

I think you should respost your issues regarding your personal sitch in your recovery thread and let this place do what it does, help you, so you can be better at helping others.

There's a place for you here, I believe. STOP running from it. Recieve some of what you give. Its completely understandable that you yourself are not completely healed. No one expects you to be. You don't HAVE to be. Reach out the hand brother.

Point taken ... see you in "Recovery".

MR
tyk is wise
i second his advice
jb

Rev,
I'm new here and I did sense some anger and frustration in your reply to my post regarding my situation by stating D as a viable option and I assure you that I feel your advice and knowledge are given with the best intentions in mind and I for one thank you for replying to my post. Most here, I'm sure, are going to make their own decisions as to what advice to follow and what path to take but all that are here want to be heard and to know that they can survive regardless of the outcome in their current situation.

Perhaps lingering here for too long while you are trying to recover after WW/WH has returned is not very therapeutic because you tend to read through other peoples troubles, pain and suffering and even though you are here for good and to help others you end up re-living your anger and pain over and over through others'.

I can tell you when and if my WW returns I will follow the advice given here and perhaps visit from time to time with advice of my own but I can assure you I will not linger.

Thank you, Rev....no apology necessary for the posts in my thread. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I am honestly confused by all of this. I guess I should have just dumped my husband after the last lie, since lying was a boundary for me.

Evidently not a boundary that you enforce.

There is a HUGE difference in "stating" it a boundary...
and "enforcing" it as one.

We can list a multitude of boundaries but unless we take action when that boundary is breached...it's all just words.

I think that he walks all over those boundaries because you do not, and have never, enforced those boundaries.

It is like the little boy that draws the line in dirt. This is my boundary...don't step over it. Other little boy steps over it...looks him in the eye...and what happens? The first little boy just draws another line with his toe...states again..."this is my boundary, do not cross it"...and it just turns into a game.

You have a game on your hands and until YOU do something it will continue to be a game.

YOU have the power if you want it.

committed

MyRev,

Don't you dare apologies to me either. You did not tell me anything that some others were not saying about a week before. You just put it out there in such a in your face, raw form that it jolted me into thinking. Remember that was the night that I laid it all out on the line for FWW and told her I would be just fine without her.

For some of us, your approach is just what we need sometimes.

Thanks TMTS ... maybe you and Wats01 can join me and Tyk over in Recovery. In all honesty, I really believe what I was suggesting to others, but lately my anger has built to a level where it was spilling over into other aspects of my life, and I need to get a handle on the situation before I "suggest" anything to anyone else.

I have to admit to being very proud of your and Tyk's strength and success ... so much so that when Tyk hit a nerve with his posts to me in this thread, it jolted me into looking inward, rather than outward, much the same way that you two reacted to my posts.

Wats, I owe you an explanation also because my original delivery was misunderstood due to my own anger issues. H's in general get screwed on property settlement and child custody, and when I saw your WW giving you the opportunity to keep everything, including the children, to just let her chase her fantasy, I honestly thought that it was worth considering, while pursuing the R on the back side of Plan D. I still think its worthy of consideration, but that's your call, and I am sorry for the hostile delivery.

MEDC,

I'm sorry for the T/J ... something just broke loose in me this morning. I'll now leave this thread and go over to Recovery. You are more than capable of holding this thread down on your own. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

This is tough for me because I like James. I think he is a genuinely good guy that has been given a bad deal by his wife.

That being said he has made what I would consider to be huge errors in how he has handled things. Months ago...before this thing got out of hand, he should have(and could have) stood up and NOT allowed his wife to leave with his child. And long before the courts handed her custody, he should have(and could have) at a minimum, kept his son with him half time.
This laid back approach has resulted in only bad for his son. Continuing on that same course will result in Jame's son looking him in the face one day and asking why did my dad allow me to be taken from my home...why weren't you fighting that every single step of the way. Sorry...but God hasn't led James to this place in my opinion. Fear has...a lack of anger over the injustice that has now become his DS's life. Sorry...but there is no honor in joking around with a woman and offering her help in her new apartment with her affair partner. That is, IMHO, insanity.

Patience in this case has only resulted in harm...and there were clear and obvious warning signs right from the start.

Myrev...I don't mind the threadjack at all.

Hi MEDC

Trouble is, that a knee-jerk, impatient response initially can end a rescuable marriage prematurely.

It doesn't feel like many people's definition of MASCULINE or righteous to plan A, then plan B. Far better to say the right angry words and kick that ho' right out the do' !

Remembering to embellish the words in retelling in bars in future of course.

In reading SAA I was SICKENED by Jon's attitude initially.

But he got back the marriage he wanted for him and his kids. Got back the woman he shared so much of his life with.

Some folks would call such behaviour " wimpy", while others would call such self control "studs of steel".

I think that what we need to do is recognise the difference between Ghandi and the French army in 1940.

One is brave but restrained. One is capitulating and scared.

From a bombing height those behaviours can manifest about the same. But in effect they are very different.

Just IMO.

I think you are right Bob. Some may get back their marriage but at what cost? There are people here that call themselves "recovered" and I would suggest that the Harley's would cringe to have their program associated with that type of recovery(surrender). Obviously that is a guess on my part...but I know I would not want certain "recovered" marriages held out as examples of what this terrific plan can do for people.

I see some here as laying down and waiting for the neuter...others that have done a good Plan A and tolerated a lot still managed to hang on to their cajones. I look at those people and marriages with awe (Mr & Mrs W, you and the misses...to name a few...not perfect marriages at all...but not surrenders either).

I salute the "studs of steel"

Bob that means you as well as my own DH.

You studs of steel are real princes, for you have put EVERY OUNCE of yourself behind your love.

Whether such heroic actions end up saving the marraige (as it did for Bob and my own marriage) or not, those that work so hard to save their marraiges should be very proud of themselves.

medc,

I think part of what Bob was trying to say (and BP please correct me if I'm wrong) is that some people have trouble looking at someone like Ghandi for instance, and seeing that "lack of anger" can still be "cojones"....can still be PROactive. I agree with you that anger is important and healthy.....but I also believe that there are many ways to express self respect, cojones, and boundaries in response to a healthy amount of initial anger. Like you....I worry about the people who never get angry and only respond to betrayal with fear (because I think it paralyzes them)....but I think there are many powerful ways of responding with respectful and healthy anger to betrayal.

I would rather see anger than fear in a BS....because I fear is crippling and anger is motivating. And I would also rather see "acting" instead of "reacting".

Anger is positive short term and as long as it motivates healthy change. Motivation can come in many forms.....passive resistance and aggressive resistance.

But anger can interfere with recovery when it is persistent, unproductive, and interferes with logic and forgiveness.

kwim?

SF...I got what Bob was saying. I see strength in those people....
I have already understood your take on anger as well. There are times when being passive results in evil being done to others. I have referenced such a case here.

I don't expect that you and I will see things the same way. I have seen you stand up for those that I consider to be weak...and you see strength in them. We won't see eye to eye on this.

MEDC, I like you too, and I see a lot of value in what you are trying to say.

Unfortunately I also at times feel like you're jumping up and down on the issue of me allowing her to leave with my son when she walked out on me like it's something I can change NOW..

I will be the FIRST to admit that the biggest mistake of my life was letting her leave with my son that night back in August..

I will be the FIRST to tell anyone that it is agonizing knowing he is in the situation he is in and being exposed to what he's being exposed to.. his sister too.

I'll also be the FIRST to say that deep down it really pisses me off that my WW is using the WORDS 'best interest' and 'for DS/DSD's sake' to justify behavior that is actually just the opposite, and for -her- sake alone.

I think the two of us agree completely on that.

Fact is, I'm doing -EVERYTHING- I can do and working WITHIN the system (flawed as we'd both agree that it is) to get the most time I can with my son. No.. I'm not detailing my fight here.. it's FAR too important what I'm doing right now to expose my strategies in a public forum. Being angry and calling down fire from heaven and loosing the 'dogs of war' aren't going to help.. sometimes the best strategy in war isn't a frontal assault. This is much more like chess, which I'm no slouch at.

We've had this go round on my thread a few times, you and I. You've thwacked me with it over and over again and each time I've thanked you for your trouble and taken what bits of your advice I can use, and put them to use... and yeah, I've discarded a lot of things in a big way because I just can't use them.. I'm sorry that it seems to piss you off when I do that, but hey, I'm doing the best I can here, and I know my situation and wife far better than anyone else on this board.

Am I always going to say to myself 'What would MEDC do?'.. no, because I don't agree that being the hardass all the time is the right answer, or sets the example to my children of the people I want them to become.

I'm no doormat either.. I've proven that to my wife, much to her annoyance and dismay and apparent 'hurt' expressed to people she talks to. I've stood my ground and established clearly what I think of WB and how uncomfortable I am with her situation. I'm taking what legal steps I can to give me the best opportunity to remove my son from that situation.

I'm not your doormat either and don't need to be pushed around or pointed at with a whole new thread for people to talk about 'sissy' BH's.. If your objective was to help people like me 'get it' and be just like you, you're failing.. honestly it's starting to erode the enormous amount of respect and credibility I ascribed to someone who fought this fight and won, even if he failed to recover his marriage.. or didn't want to.. whatever your story is.

This is my last post on this thread.. I'm done defending my actions, or being sniped at because you don't agree with me trying to have a good relationship with someone I cannot avoid for the next 14 years.. regardless of how evil you think she is.

I think you make some great points MEDC.
I think that it is part of the reason I ended up divorced from my ex-WH. I did not want a divorce, but I was not willing to sacrifice my self-respect to stay married. Each BS has to decide where the line is. Reading "Love Must Be Tough" really helped me during the tumultuous times. You have to be willing to define and enforce boundaries in order to gain any respect from a WS..unfortunately, some BS's act out of FEAR and enabling behaviors tend to take over..When that happens, a WS has no reason to change and no incentive to do so because they know there will be no consequences for their actions.

My Rev.

If you are still checking this thread...I want to chime in too. Yes, you sometimes have a harsh delivery, but sometimes we all need that.

I, for one, never would have exposed to WW's employer if it wasn't for your tough, in your face, challenges to me. You alone got me to do that. At the time I was a bit disappointed I did this exposure b/c it seemed to "blow up in my face". I know now that "IF" my M has a chance....in the end that exposure will have done some good.

Things like that are what you DO bring to this board. I think it keeps us (me anyway) from getting too comfortable in what we are doing and thinking. You keep me on my toes and force me to ask myself tough questions. You make me think about both sides of every situation. For that, I applaud you and thank you.

All of us here make our own choices. You aren't forcing anyone to do anything. But, having your opinions are definitely helpful.

Thank you and best of luck in your continued journey.
ILA

James, i think you are doing some things now. However, it cannot be ignored that your passive approach resulted in your ALLOWING her to leave with your son...and then NOT taking action to correct that until it was too late. That cannot be ignored.

What also cannot be ignored is that there is a LOT OF ROOM in between being a bad [censored] and a doormat that offers to help out his wife in her new digs with the OM. I mean James...come use the washing machine...sure, wash the sheets that you and the OM are sleeping on too.

James, i am not pissed at you for anything. There is no reason for me to be. I am telling you, IMHO, your son will continue to be harmed as long as you have the attitude that allows you to offer to help out your wife and her boy toy. That doesn't mean you need to go on a rampage with her...it means that you should stop enabling her bad behavior. THAT ATTITUDE is what brought you to the place you are at today and what has your son sleeping under the OM"s roof more often than not.

And James...this thread was not started to address only your situation. As my first post shows, there is more to it than that.

I am not only discussing what happened in August...but what happened since then. You were told by people with experience and even a lawyer(here on MB) that you should get your son home at least 50% of the time. Yet you kept on giving him back as though she had more rights to him than you. This isn't about what happened in August...it is about what has happened since then...and that to me...(and feel free to dismiss it as it is only an opinion) is representative of your entire attitude with your STBX wife.

You come here for advice...take it or leave it Jame's. Your choice.

ETA...I just re-read the first 13 pages of your thread james and feel even more confident that my bringing this up right now was the right thing to do. I would challenege anyone to read those posts and then some of your more recent posts and not see a pattern continuing which has(and is) cost your dearly.

I hope nobody leaves or stops posting simply because it is perceived that their advise isn't taken. Everyone takes in information in a different way. Some need gentle hand-holding persuasion; others need a good smack with a 2x4. We might even need different approaches at different stages. In any case, the more different takes on a situation, the more likely appropriate action can be taken.

That said, I don't think it's worth harping on stuff that's already been done, except perhaps to educate others who haven't got to that yet. Haven't we all done things we regret while on this journey? Hindsight is 20/20 after all.