ILA:

Listen to your lawyer. ANd you might need one for the divorce, and another for the mortgage work.

The loss to the lender will be on your credit report for seven years. Good stuff on the report goes away, Bad stuff stays forever.

You making the payments saves your credit and HERS. So what. You are linked until the house is sold.

DO NOT REFINANCE.

Repeat:

DO NOT REFINANCE.

IF you refinance, then ALL THE DEBT IS YOURS. ANd since it's refinanced DEBT, you can't short sale and screw the lender. You get the screw from the lender, because you are still liable.

There is a diffenerce between the debt incurred at the initial house purchase and then the refinance debt. You are in a better position RIGHT NOW.

WW in on the HOOK.
Bank loses the money if short sold/foreclosed, etc. And the recent tax law changes favor you to not pick up tacxable income from that transaction also.
Your still in the house.
WW WANTS IT FREE AND EASY.
STAYING in the HOUSE doesn't quite get her there.

Even if you move in tenants and start renting the place, either as roomies or your out completely.

DO NOT REFINANCE until the housing price exceeds the debt. AND KEEP The WW on the debt until then.

LG

PS: DO NOT REFINANCE

The trouble with not refinancing is that as long as ILA is financially linked to his WW, he is not only responsible for the house debt, but any debts she racks up while living with the OM. Stories on this site alone show that this can be extremely costly. At least the house is an investment, though it may not seem so at the moment. The debt ILA would take on his own could be bargained against other things, such as pensions, retirement funds etc., that WW might be willing to give up in exchange for her half of the debt. These things can also help ILA negotiate a do-able mortgage, even if it is far from ideal but could carry him through to such a time when housing prices return. If her name is still on the house when that happens, she will be entitled to half the equity which will be far more substantial by then and ILA might still end up losing his house to pay for that.

ILA, talk to your lawyer. Also talk to a financial advisor. Gather all the information you can. Make the financial/legal decision based on what is best for YOU. MB principals will help you salvage your M. Keep the 2 separate in your mind for now.

I believe a LSA can seperate out debtand keep ILA from being held liable without ILA having to refinance his home. My now husband and his ex-wife could (we're in NC).

HTH

Thanks for all the great input. Tabby, I'm glad to hear your story (not glad that you've had to endure it of course) but it gives me some insight. I really am curious how WW will change once I take the offensive legally and move towards plan B. Great knowledge to have...thank you!

I will not refinance. I know about the only choice I have is short sale. Since it is 1st loan the bank eats the loss, not me or us. Yes, my credit gets hit, but I'm told short sale "settlement" is much less destructive than foreclosure in terms of credit.....and I still don't know if judge can rule my credit should not be affected due to circumstance and my willingness to do what I can to not screw the lender....have to see about that? So, Don't worry LGolfer....I won't Refy.

As for new debt...even without LSA filed, I can still easily prove the date of actual separation (voluntary move out by WW...12/17/07...and that legal stops the community property thing here in CA....meaning any new income or debt after that date is not linked to me in any way. I will double check all that with L today though. I've been keeping pretty good financial records since this all happened so I think I'm covered.

I just want to find out if there's any way to legally make WW continue to pay her share of mortgage and house taxes (due in a few weeks).....whatever her legal share of that cost turns out to be. If she completely stops paying for anything then I'm screwed.....it'll be foreclosure. But, if she pays some I can likely get by long enough to get the house short-sold and have a lesser credit hit.

Tabby, wife has said she'll let me have everything in the house except some of her personal belongings. She wants to "trade" that for her getting to dump the house in my lap and getting to just walk away. This is how she did it in her 1st M (gave H house and belongings in exchange for some cash which she bought a car with...and walked away easy). Her Mom and Stepdad did that her whole childhood....just dropped everything and moved when stepdad got in trouble with law/finances...moved almost every year of her childhood. That's what she knows, that's what she's trying to do now....drop everything and walk away. Of course, things like that also tie into WHY the A happened and WHY she got scared after getting married....but that's a whole other story!

Thanks for the help everyone!
ILA

That sure explains a lot. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Good job on retaining a lawyer, ILA. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

He/She should be able to help you get a good handle on your situation, and to get a plan in place to protect you as much as possible.

BTW, I've noticed that you're sounding stronger. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Lori

I guess I can add to that: When I talked to OMW in late Jan. she told me OM was going to continue to pay rent on their apartment through March then OMW was supposed to have found a new place to live.

That same week (this was shortly after exposure to workplace and WW was very hostile threatening immediate D) I convinved WW to wait a while before doing anything rash like D filing.....she said she'd give things 2 months to "see if anything has chagned" but then we needed to move forward with D and doing something with the house....ironically 2 monts from then takes us to the end of March...which coincides perfectly with OM's sit.

Now that is approaching and I know WW is getting antsy and probably getting pressure from OM to take action. And, finally seeing L this week got her all riled up and on the warpath too. I'm sure she'll back down as soon as she finds out I'm not going to roll over.

So yes, I guess I knew this was coming and shouldn't be surprised. They've had this timeframe lined up from the start. So, that explains the TIMING of this. The WAY WW is going about it comes from her past habits. Either way it all really SUCKS!

The most likely and best case scenerio I see here:

Get her to sign a QuitClaim deed and tell her you will pay/assume the entire mortgage and taxes.

In return you get her to sign off on everything in the home.

As was pointed out above...just because she signs off on the house doesn't mean the mortgage lender is releiving her from liability. They won't.

Then you move forward and either short sell (not likely) or go the foreclosure route. During foreclosure you often get to retain possession of the home RENT and TAX free for an extended period of time (6 months + however long it takes them to kick you out which is often longer nowadays...the sherrif's are too busy). During this period you SPEND your money, have parties, whatever...until you are eventually kicked out.

Then you go bankrupt and indure the 7 year hit to your credit being sure to list any possible liability to former wife in the paperwork. She's still on the hook for the entire debt even though she gave you everything.

This is especially nice if there is other stuff besides the house she's "giving you" for taking on the debt.

I don't like WS's...so screw her. This is the way nearly everyone is doing it...which makes it right, right??? (I know it's not right but it's within your legal rights)

Mr. Wondering

p.s.- btw...don't take financial adive from the very bank you owe the mortgage to. They are trained to tell you what is in THEIR best interest...not yours. Seek competent legal counsel.

ILA:

Work with your lawyer 2 come up with the best plan for you, and that's legal and firm with regard 2 dealing with your WW. There's no reason 2 go out of your way 2 shaft your WW. She's doing fine in that area on her own (she just doesn't realize it yet).

WSs are thoughtless and s2pid. They only appear malicious.

Last time I heard, you still love her. And this is marriage builders, not marriage blasters.

-ol' 2long

2long, I totally agree w/ your post. I'm angry right now but in no way am out to hurt my WW. Even though she deserves anything she gets, I'm not looking for vengence.

I do love my W very very much and if she would wake up tomorrow and say she wanted to work on things....we'd do it. Above everything else, I want to save my M.

But, she's leaving me no choice right now. She's starting to screw with my well being and my future....so I have to take a stand. Unfrotunately that includes filing for D too. It's the last thing in the world I want to do, but what choice do I have? I guess there's always a chance that by going on the offensive it might jar her enough to wake her up.....but there's a slim to none chance of that right now.

Mr.W, I'm admittedly intrigued by your suggestion. I don't think it's the "proper" thing to do....but?

My biggest decision right now is the house. I think I'll put it on the market hoping for a farily speedy short-sale...but that may not happen.

I'm going to try and convince WW that she needs to keep making payments on it. I hope to get 1/2 from her this month still and on the taxes due in April....that would help a lot.

Afterwards I found out how the responsibility works. Our mortgage is $4100. We both have a right to the rental value of the house....say that's about $2200 (need to confirm). Since I'm living in the house I'm responsible for that $2200 towards the mortgage. That leaves $1900 that we are equally responsible for. Monthly amount of taxes and insurance would work the same way. So I'm on the hook for about $3150 and her for about $950....that really sucks.

If I can at least get her to fulfill her legal resonsibility, I could probably make my $3150 for a few months....but not for a long time. I may be able to keep up long enough to short-sale the house.

If I moved out of the house then both W and I would share the whole mortgage ($2050 each)....b/c I would no longer be responsible for the rental credit......but I would then have to rent an apartment on top of the $2050....so that does me no good either.

But, I have to figure out if it's worth me to continue to sink money into a house that I'm going to lose anyway....and that will still negatively affect my credit. Maybe foreclosure is the best way?????

Does anyone know how much worse foreclosure is on your credit as compared to short sale??? Short sale is essentially a "settlement" on the debt for less than what's due.....just like settling a credit card debt. I know it's not as bad as foreclosure, but they are both negatives. Do I throw money at a sinking ship just to go from foreclosure to "settlement"? I obviously need to talk to the credit bureaus and get more info. Anyone have thoughts on this?

I could also try to get a roomate, but I don't have a clue who it would be. All of my friends in this state are married and not looking for a place to rent!

What other property is there besides the house????

It appears to me you are both going down the tubes financially. Your wife, as your financial partner has shafted you. She has withdrawn from the "partnership" and wants to completely stop paying. It makes sense to her...she's getting nothing in return for each dollar she puts in. Now, you can try to talk some sense to her and get her to pay one or two more months such that, in that time, you can attempt to short sell it and save you both some grief. You can bet, though, that if she has the legal right to rental income from you...she will take it.

I just think you tell her that if you don't short sell it you'll take it over, no problem. Besides it is a decent Plan A move. It's what she wants. Makes you look brave and confident. Absent a short sale...it's the foreclosure route anyway and then you can live there rent/mortgage free for 6 months. There will be no excusing of the debt so it's likely bankruptcy for the both of you. (though I am an attorney, I've NO experience in this side of the law).

It's not punishing her. These are the consequences SHE choose when she backed out of the partnership. It doesn't appaear she even cares much that you both are going down (though if she made previous payments on the mortgage though not living there...those were guilt gift payments).

Regardless if she's your wife or not...shielding or attempting to shield her from any of the consequences for her choices only enables her. It will take her that much longer to hit rock bottom and potentially come to repentence. Her eternal soul is at stake and as her husband NOW...allowing her to go to rock bottom unimpeded is actually a gift of compassion in the long run.

Protect yourself...get her to sign off on any and all other property in exchange for relieving her from mortgagae payments. You're getting shafted left and right down this path...I don't think you'll regret one second standing up for yourself and protecting yourself just a little bit.

Another consideration...such other property...what's she gonna do with it if you split it up??

If you don't take it and exercise some care over it or spend it...is the bank gonna get it anyway???

Be strong and assertive. Just maybe you'll save your marriage in the process.

Women respect strength and all to often "good guys" end up "foolish guys" in the divorce process (like my friend who went to meet his stbxw at their marital home to divide up the personality only to discover she'd moved EVERYTHING out the day before behind his back...year later when the divorce was finalized she was barely punished at all for such aggregious behavior).

Mr. Wondering

p.s. - does your wife still have the key to your house...isn't that still tantamount to access even if she's not sleeping there? What's her driver's license list as her residence?? Does she still get mail, even junk mail (save it all as proof)???

oh we crossed posted.

Interesting that she gets a "rental credit"....mmmm, she may even waive claiming that if she thinks you are going to take over the whole mortgage payment yourself (maybe waive is a bad terms...you are just picking up her part of the mortgage payment...the rental credit is still in there since she's only be releived from paying her portion of the mortgage payment less the credit in exchange for all the other property). However, if you stop paying the mortgage...can she claim you must pay her back rent and how does she go about collecting that if she can???? Is it a dischargeable claim in bankruptcy???

I doubt she gets landlord rights wherein she can evict you as a defaulting tenant if you stop paying the mortgage. Find out if she can kick you out during the redemption period (I presume your state has such) while you continue living there rent/mortgage free.


Mr. W

Dang...always forget to log myself in when I get on my lovely wife's laptop.

Sorry if I confused anyone.

Mr. Wondering

ILA:

Perhaps in addition to the DV lawyer, you should consider meeting one who specializes in real estate issues.

We had 2 do that about our income property that my SIL was suing us 2 try 2 force us 2 sell it 2 her at the price we paid for it - never mind it had more than doubled in value in the 4 years we owned it.

We discussed various options with the lawyer, including one where we refi'd and carried the loan for my SIL to buy it at a fair price. We knew she wouldn't keep up with the payments and leave us in the lurch even2ally, but our intent was 2 try 2 set the price and interest rate at a value that would be attractive enough that we could sell the loan 2 someone else and in effect hand the "problem" over for someone else 2 deal with.

But landlord/tenant laws are pretty weird, and in So. Cal are grossly skewed in favor of the tenant. For example, when my SIL changed the locks so we couldn't even get in 2 inspect our own property or prepare it for sale (she stopped paying us anything months earlier), there was nothing we could do until we'd gone through a lengthy eviction process. We ended up waiting for her lawsuit, then agreed 2 meet with a mediator (retired judge), who helped us come up with a settlement that would get her out of the house so we could sell it. We did that, though it took another 6 months, gave her a check for her "share" (which she never deserved, but it was worth it 2 be all done with the process - if we'd fought the lawsuit and proceeded with the eviction, we'd still be at it now, and probably for a year or 2 more). She refused the check, so we stopped payment on it about 8 months ago. Haven't heard a word since.

That's getting pretty off track for you, sorry.

Maybe what I was getting at is, while it might be legal 2 take her 2 the cleaners or down with the ship as you sink with it yourself...

...do you really want a fight over this extending in the fu2re and crimping your personal recovery longer than you've known her?

If your lawyer(s) can find as equitable a way 2 do the "right thing" - the FIRM thing - the JUST thing, and do it sooner rather than later, wouldn't you prefer that?

I would think preserving your credit and as much of your finances as possible should be your first priority.

Maybe, your WW will at some point be impressed by the stand you take now. But based on her his2ry, and the very short duration of your marriage, I wouldn't bet even my own pocket change on it.

-ol' 2long

Only other property is furnishings....which are probably 80% mine from before we met....so I would keep them anyway. I think that things we bought together even before M would be 50/50 (because we bought them together) and of course anything bought during 6 mths. of M would be 50/50....but there's not a whole lot when that stuff is considered....definitely not enough to entice me to "trade" any of that for the house situation!


Best case scenario....that's my first attempt I think...try to guilt her into doing that, threaten future lawsuits, convince her she's putting me out on the street otherwise...whatever I can do to keep her contributing half until we can sell. Then we short sell and save some credit worthiness at least....but I doubt she'll go for this. She sees it as throwing away money on a house she doesn't live in and that she doesn't feel she HAS to pay for.


Yes, she does know this I found out. Probably this is the most logical option with the best chance of me getting her to go for. She pays her share towards the mortgage after rental credit (around $1000/mth). Then I can try to make up the difference until we short-sell. But, I have to decide if it's worth it to keep throwing money at it for month after month if we are going to have to short-sell or even foreclose in the end anyway. I could see her pitching in her $1000 share b/c she can afford that much and she the fact that I'm putting it on the market shows "progress" to her. She actually commented that she was "surprised" I actually called the realator to start the process.


Yes, this is an option. I'd like to avoid foreclosure at all cost but if short-sale isn't all that much better for my credit (????) and if it doesn't look like I can short-sell it very quickly....it may not be worth the extra money....might need to just save the money and foreclose.


I don't know anything about this either.....are you suggesting we'd both be responsible for the mortgage debt if we foreclose??? With short sale we are NOT responsible for the amount the lender would lose....it's a settlement.


I think a combination of guilt payments and that she didn't know her rights.....she just assumed she was resonsible to pay half and hadn't thought much about it. I'm sure OM talked her into playing hardball.



As I noted, the other property isn't worth enough to entice me much.....but if I decide to just foreclose anyway....I might as well get the other stuff too, right? The credit will still hit us both whether or not she gives me the other stuff.


Yeah, I'm hoping for something like that I'll admit....but it's a REAL longshot.


Yep, and normally I'm that good guy that trusts way too much. Not this time. I really don't believe she WANTS to hurt me but she's so selfish and worried about her own situation that whatever happens to me really doesn't matter to her right now. Basically, she's in the Affair FOG and can't see straight....I know my W wouldn't act the way my WW is acting through all this. She just wants to walkaway with no suffering....just like she's done her whole life.


Hadn't thought of it that way. Yes, she has key, still gets some mail (she's changed a few things), etc. Maybe I can argue that she really is still "living" there. Although I have to be careful b/c the date she moved out is also the executable date for "separation" and ceases the community debt after that date.

Nice racket out there in disneyland. I don't sleep at my cottage up north...but I still possess the keys, have my fishing license indicate such address, receive mail there and voluntarily pay the bills without apprehension. I'm getting ripped off...when my wife and daughter spend a few weekends up north Michigan without me...maybe I can make her pay me some rent. Maybe I can offset it from the groceries budget. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Point is, as I believe you know, you'll have to look closely at how "separated" is defined in the divorce laws versus how "living there" is defined in the contract, landlord-tenent, banking/mortgage or whatever laws. She certainly exercises a degree of possession when she retains the keys and comes and goes as she pleases, et. al. You have not changed the locks on her. Whereas, it is apparent what date she separated from your marital bed.

Good luck...don't drag your feet on all this to long (snicker, I said "2long")...as the foreclosure route is only where I predicted you will most likely end up because that the end of the line and it takes hard work and some luck to avoid that eventuality. It's gonna/gotta be harder for a recently betrayed spouse. People who haven't been there don't understand, infidelity is abuse and it's tough to pull yourself out of that marital bed, day after day and PRETEND to be functioning.

On the bright side, I did, coincidentally, speak with a title company representative friend of mine this afternoon who indicated that banks are aggressively attempting to work out these short sale situations. They DON'T want your house on their balance sheet. They figure sell it now, for nearly anything, is better than taking a much larger hit WAY down the road after legal fees, court costs, redemption periods and another year of disrepair on the underlying asset only to get the same THEN market price. Besides...one year from now they could be out another 25% if the market keeps diving. They want to assess and sell NEW loans not manage bad loans.

For example...my friend just sold the title policy on a home which in 2005 someone bought new from the builder in Macomb County Michigan for $210,000. On a short sale the bank allowed the seller to sell for $140,000. and right off the loss. So what I'm saying is..if they are going to write of the short sale anyway, the sales price means nothing to you...your job is to work hard to convince them the house is worth LESS...LESS...LESS such that you can actually sell it and move out quit quickly from this fiasco (and pushing for a 30 day allowance to get out).

Mr. Wondering

p.s. - See your wife was impressed you called the real estate people. Taking control and assertive action IS Plan A stuff. She thinks you are likely a needy mess which is whimpy. Look good and hold your head up...you aren't the only one with financial problems in America and you only slightly caused yours (by overbuying in a new marriage). Consider what you want to be able to tell people in 5 - 10 years about how YOU handled and overcame this difficult and challenging moment in your life.

You funny guy <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


That is an excellent point and one I may use to "influence" WW into continuing to contribute to some mortgage in the short term.


That's for sure....I fear the day when this all catches up to me and I have a total break down! I do feel like I'm "pretending" to function sometimes....but what other choice is there right? Life goes on.


This is pretty much what I've heard too....that's why I hope I can get it sold fairly rapidly....we'll see. Plus, we haven't paid anything yet..we have no equity. Bank has already gotten a year and a half of interest....I know they'd much rather write off the loss than have a foreclosure.


I hope you're right and this all might actually help the M situation in the long run....but we'll see.

Tremendous post, Mr.W (or your alias Mrs. W!).....great insight. This was very very helpful.

Have a great weekend....I'm off to a party tonight and hopefully can have a little "fun" actually!...getting MY life started again <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Don't make your life MORE complicated

STAY AWAY FROM ALL WOMEN

You are an emotional basket case right now.

Unhealthy emotional women will find you irresistable right now.

Don't go there and complicate things even more.

You ARE still married and your wife's infidelity does not in any way justify you committing adultery.

Play poker with the guys but don't mixx alcohol and women at all.

Mr. Wondering

Hey 2long....you mentioned a real estate attorney u used. Was he/she good? Would you recommend them to me if you still know the name?

I'm discussing house options with lenders, but might want to get a consultation with RA lawyer too.

Thanks