WW decided to speak with L today for the first time (just a consultation). She came back with some notion that since I was the only one living in our house I was fully responsible for everything....utilities, upkeep, mortgage, taxes, everything.....at least legally.

My L had told me in my consultation that WW may have some legal right to receive some rent money from whoever's living in the house. Since I'm living here and "benefitting" from the house, I may be responsible for at least some of the fair rental value that WW is not receiving since she doesn't live here. Don't know all the legalities of this though.

We live in S. California. Bought house 1-1/2 years ago, in both of our names. With current market, upside down about $100k. Neither of us can afford to keep it on our own. Realator (WW's best friend) had convinced her to hold on for 6 mo. or more to see if the market started to come around, but all of a sudden now WW just wants to walk away. She doesn't want to be paying on a house that she doesn't live in (which I guess I can understand to some extent).

WW thinks I'm solely responsible legally for the payments and she is ready to walk away and drop it in my lap. She understands that her name is on the loan and her credit will be hammered but doesn't even care about that. Does it matter AT ALL that she voluntarily walked away from our home, that this is my primary residence, that I've been solely responsible for the upkeep and maintenance, that we are still M and no D filed yet, that she is having an A and has moved in with OM...that this is just plain morally WRONG...does any of that matter?

What are my options? I can't afford to keep it. I don't want foreclosure b/c it probably kills credit for 7 years or so. We could short-sell it to a new buyer, the bank would just take the loss (we wouldn't be responsible for the difference), and it would still hurt credit but not as bad.....but I don't know if it could be short-sold very quickly. I talked to realator tonight and told her to start the ball rolling to put it on the market....I don't know if I have any other choice.

What means do I have if WW just stops giving me her share of the money for mortgage? Should I try to make up the difference for a few months until it can be short-sold (lender told me it's worse to fall behind on payments/foreclosure....then short-sell it...sort of a double-whammy there).

Also, we are looking at the mortgage as a 50/50 split responsibility....if I make more $$ should my share be more? Since we bought house before we were married, I'd think not.

Very confused, very very frustrated. I may have to go ahead and retain L now and maybe even file for D myself. WW also took $1600 out of our savings that she knew we needed for bills/mortgage this month. She claims it was from her paycheck and she wants her money....but it's a joint account and it is our money. Not sure what to do right now. WW is coming over tomorrow night to go through the rest of the months bills but it could be ugly. For the first time in nearly 6 years together, WW got told to go F- herself tonight. I feel absolutely horrible, but I got pushed to the brink. I may be at the point of no return now.

Anyone have any advice on the house? Do I have any legal grounds and/or can I do anything to save my credit? I'm going to start talking to creditors now to give them a head's up. I spoke to lender tonight already.

Help! Thanks MB'ers
-ILA

you are both responsible for the loan period. doesn't matter that she is not living there. do you have a legal separation? if not, if you don't do D do up a legal sep asap that lists both of you as responsible for fifty percent of the mortgage note.

she chose to walk out doesn't mean she is not responsible legally for that note. trust me, the mortgage company could care less. can you force her to pay half? no. can you sue her over it? possibly.

i am going through the same thing right now. i have lived in the marital residence since ex left in 2005. our agreement simply states i will refinance in my name only and at THAT time will be 100 percent responsible for all upkeep and taxes and payments. now ex is trying to force me to sell or refi saying i am in breach of agreement. well, sorry but i am not. there was no time frame to refi or sell in place. period. and, he has not given me one dime in taxes, upkeep, etc, since he left and our agreement says i would not be totally responsible until i refi in my own name.

get a layer to protect yourself if nothing else. sounds like you are going to have to sell. if she doesn't care that her credit gets ruined than she is not going to be very helpful.

2 names on the mortgage means 2 people responsible. period.

mlhb

If ther isn't a lease for your renter, then the saifd renter is a room mate.

She ain't entitled to squat AND you can request in the LSA that she make HALF the house payments.

Get it done NOW! before you are forced to sell it and have to give her half the "vlaue" even though fees will eat your equity.

I lost my house to a caniving lowlife WW and she couldn't afford the house and is now losing it.

Get a LSA agreement in place now or file a divorce and request an emergency hearing to get temporary orders in place. If she is ORDERED to pay and doesn't, you can then request that she be found in contempt of court. At that point (because I don't know CA law) I don't know if the Judge can freeze her assets, attach her bank account, or garnish her wage but she would have to answer to the judge at any rate.

Here's what a California attorney says about it:
(http://www.jsyohananlaw.com/PracticeAreas/Reimbursement-Issues.asp)

"Just as property acquired during the marriage but before legal separation belongs to both spouses equally, debts prior to separation are the responsibility of both spouses equally as well, at least for divorce purposes. Under the terms of the contract that documents the debt, your creditor doesn't care which of the spouses pays it off, and usually is entitled to collect the entire amount from either spouse. In many property division cases, the spouses agree that the party with the higher income will pay off all or most of the marital indebtedness in exchange for receiving a larger share of the community property.

An important detail under California law also complicates the question of debt responsibility in divorce. If a divorce spouse pays down a marital debt - that is, one that existed prior to separation - with income earned after separation, which is separate property, the paying spouse is entitled to reimbursement for that payment from community property. Half the value of the payment would be deducted from the value of the marital estate and credited to the paying spouse.

The classic example of this situation is when a husband moves out of the marital residence upon separation, but continues to make the mortgage payments, unless he waives his right to reimbursement in writing, or the spouses agree that the payments should be counted as child support, spousal support, or both. Prenuptial agreements can also alter the rights of the spouses in a reimbursement situation.

Other debt reimbursement issues can involve the use of community property to pay off separate debt, as when the wife pays off the husband's premarital debts to improve their credit score. Additionally, separate property - such as a premarital 401(k) account, or an inheritance - is sometimes used to pay off community debts, and the paying spouse can be eligible for repayment under certain circumstances."

*Remember when he discusses "separation" he is discussing a "legal separation".

First off get your own checking account and get rid of the joint one.
SHE is responsible for the mortgage as much as you are. The thing is you can't force her (without a court order) to pay for 1/2 the mortgage. As for the utilities, you would be responsible for them because you live there. For her side of things (sorry, I know this sucks) if you both owned it and are paying 1/2 then you would have to figure out how much it would "rent" for. Say your mortgage is $2000. If you would rent it you would get $1200. Then you would pay $1200 of the mortage and she would have to pay $800. It sounds like she does just want to walk away. You need to talk to her about this and you NEED to get a lawyer. If she wants to walk away and you want to save your credit have her sign over the mortage and the deed to you. Then either get a roommate to help pay the mortage until you can sell it or do the short-sell route. I am not sure about how that works so make sure you research that before you commit. I think if you could find a roommate it would be the best way to go.

ILA:

My concern, in addition 2 what's been said above, is that the house is currently worth less than what is owed on it, by $100K, as you said.

I also live in So Cal, and you're right - prices peaked a couple of years ago, and have been falling since. It's not clear when, or if, they'll start rebounding.

Your W may want 2 just sign it over 2 you so that she doesn't have the responsibility for eating $50K in losses. I wouldn't let her get away with that unless you can get a renter and thereby keep the house until things 2rn around (it can also be a show of BH strength, because you would then be demonstrating that you have the wherewithal to persevere in spite of her behavior).

But if you don't think you can manage to keep the house, then don't let her off the hook for absorbing 50% of the loss if you have to sell. That's life.

And remember, like I said before: It's only a building.

-ol' 2long

I agree Z. If he has to take a loss or have it go on his credit rating it should go on her's also. That is why IMO he should figure out what he wants to do and seek legal advice before doing anything. If he wants to save the house and save his credit he should figure out what his options are. If she backs out and doesn't pay him he needs to know what his rights are. Your comment "It's only a building" rings soo true but I don't know what I would do if I was in his shoes. I know it goes on your record for 7 years but does he/they have to pay the money back for the loss? If he pays 1/2 over the years does it still show on his records because she didn't pay hers? My sister's first husband left her and they had just got a car that he drove (new with a 5 year loan) In the divorce it was put into his name and his responsibility. FF She meets her now current husband and they decide to get married and buy a home. Her ex's car was repo'ed and it was on her credit report. She had to send a copy of the divorce papers. It took a while but they did get the loan. The mortgage company overlooked the repo but it stayed on her credit report for 7 years.

Indeed, 2long, that's the situation that is the hardest. I'd love to keep the house on my own but can't just let her sign it over to me and have me inherit $100k in "debt" if you will. She would love to get out that easy.

WW pretty much is telling me that she plans to simply stop paying her part of the mortgage...she doesn't care about her credit (of course not, she's living in a rent/mortgage free house with OM and just bought a new car...she's fine for a while).

I'm trying to find a way to keep my credit intact and not let her take me down with the ship.

Sounds like short sale is best route. If we find a buyer, the bank gets whatever the house sells for. With the type of loan we have, we will not be responsible for making up the difference (sort of like settling on a credit card debt payoff). It will hurt credit, but I'm told by lender it may only be 3-4 years on credit report.....foreclosure is 7 I think.

I'm hoping we could find a buyer soon (well not hoping...I don't want to let the house go....but financially the sooner the better) and if WW stops making all payments then maybe I can supplement a month or two to keep from missing any payments prior to short sale.

I wonder if I make the full payment on my own and can halfway save MY credit....does she also benefit and am I saving HER credit too? She sure wouldn't deserve that benefit.

This is the part I'm unclear on and need to see L about. I was told she has a right to the rental value since I'm living there and she's not. That would be about $2k. Our mortagage is $4k. I don't know if she gets to accept $2k in "profit" from the rental amount, then we are obligated to split the remaining $2k (in which case she'd actually be MAKING money....I pay $3k ($2k of it to her), she pays $1k)

Do I pay her $2k, then I am responsible for my "half" still? That means I pay $2k to her and still pay $2k more....whole mortage by me?

I can't afford any more than $2500 a month on my own. I don't know how I can manage to have us pay $4000 a month if she simply stops paying or pushes for this "rent" money?

Well I am not an expert on this so that is why I think you need to seek legal help. We are landlords though so I can tell you how it works for us from that standpoint.
We pay the mortgage, taxes and insurance on the rental home. We don't have tenants right now (STRESS!) so we pay electric, water and maintain the yard. When our tenants finally move in on the first of the month they will pay rent and any utilities and also will be responsible for lawn care. We are still responsible for the mortgage, taxes and utilities so for you I would think you and your WW should split that 50/50. Then you would be paying "rent" and utilities so that is where it gets muddy. If it rents for $2000 and you both own it then you split that in 1/2 and you come up with you pay 3000 and she pays 1000. Then there is upkeep on the house. Anything that needs fixing we pay for so if you have something fixed she has to pay for 1/2.

After typing all of this it looks like such a mess, I am so sorry you are going through this! I can not stress enough that you need legal help so you can put together a game plan. If you do sell the house and the buyers want to rent it maybe you can rent it from them so you don't have to move right away.
BTW my math was off in my first post, sorry.

I'm not sure I understand the rental stuff you are talking about. So what if she is not living there and you are? Lots of people own houses or other property without actually living there. Think of all the cottages around! Why should you pay her rent? It's not like you threw her out - she has every right to live there if she wants to seeing that she is an owner!

That said, she IS an owner of the house and regardless of market rates and what you owe, the house IS an investment. I would recommend getting a roomate to help you keep the house and using the housing market at a bargaining chip with WW to "trade" for other assets. Do you live near a university or college where you could get a student? When you get her to agree to giving up the house (expecially if she is taking on other debts, or leaving you with other assets she otherwise wouldn't), you need to go to the bank and remortgage your house in your name alone. Refinance it over a longer period of time to reduce your monthly payment! You only have to keep it up until you can sell your house for what it's worth. It's not a bad move.

Here's what I did in my similar situation: (1) drew up legal SA very simply trading off his half of the house and ALL of its contents for his truck, no spousal support (I make more money)and I keep my pension. I also agreed to take our huge line of credit debt. (2) I got a student roomate who I give a discount rent to in exchange for chores which I can't do. (3) Got his name off the house as soon as he signed the LSA and refinanced to cover the LOC debt as well as some additional money so I could fix up the money pit. DS is in college for one more year and after that I can afford to sell it. The OWH in my sitch was in more dire straights than me and didn't have the equity to cover what I did with my refinancing, so he refinanced his house over 35 years. Sounds crazy - especially since he's 47 years old, but I've heard of 45 year mortgages. This is possible and worth looking into.

Even if she signs over the house to you (quit claim), this just gets her out of any ownership in the property- she STILL OWES ON THE LOAN. Ownership and the $$ are two seperate things. Countrywide or whomever holds the loan doesnt care that she files a quit claim deed with the court, they just know her name is on the note, and unless you refinance her off the note (loan) she is still going to get her credit mangled. As she should, if this all goes down.

HTH

She isn't entitled to rent because you co-own the house. If you did not have your name on the mortgage, then she could charge you. She is on the hook regardless of where she lives.

However, you need to file for D right now. I can promise you 100% ILA, that your situation is not going to be a MB happy ending. Most WW's that commit adultery at least have some semblance of conflict while they cheat on their husband. Yours shows none at all. She is a sociopath. You married a flawed person. There is no reason to prolong your agony. This woman is EVIL. That's a bold statement, but true. I'm sure you had some good times together and she was good to you at some point, but that is only because IT SERVED HER PURPOSE. You should distance yourself from this woman and start over by picking someone better next time. This means pick a girl with your head moreso than your heart. Things I would look for:

1) Comes from a solid nuclear family.
2) Is active in practicing her religion.
3) Socially conservative.
4) Dresses conservatively and is not openly flirty with men.

Red flags:

1) Multiple failed marriages/long term relationships.
2) Family history of failed marriages or other problems.
3) Flirty with men and dresses suggestively to attract attention.
4) Has many friends of the opposite sex.
5) Is socially liberal and practices moral relativism.
6) Is not involved in religion but rather practices secular humanism.

DIVORCE THIS WOMAN! You'll thank me later.

Thanks everyone for the great ideas. I just retained my lawyer and have a meeting set up tomorrow afternoon. I have to quickly figure out how I can make her legally responsible to help pay mortgage (and taxes which are due in a month) at least until we can get the house short-sold.

Maybe an emergency filing or something in court can legally bind her to something like this.

I know Ca. is a no-fault state, but I'm hoping that some of the common sense things like....her volunatarily walking away from her responsibilities due to A and moving in with OM, me taking care of ALL responsibilities, upkeep, bills, etc. with house, this is my primary residence, I'm doing everything in good faith to not default....that kind of stuff....I'm hoping maybe that can eventually do something to help save my credit at least. I've heard sometimes you can get court orders that keep your credit clean in this sit.....anyone heard of that?

Good job. The best thing you can do is see an attorney. My ex pulled something similar. He moved in immediately with his affair partner and made no payments on any of our bills. I was trying to be nice and aski8ng him to help out.

Instead of helping, he took out all of our savings, all of his retirement, and his $25,000. bonus to blow on the affair. I ended up taking in roommates and filing for bankruptcy.

Then, he came back and filed for half of the home of which I'd been paying all of the expenses for 3 years.

The only protection you have is an attorney.

Wow, that's just horrible, Believer! I'm sorry to hear that story....I hope you're better now??

Anyway, thanks for the support. I don't want it to be a fight b/c it may ruin any chance at saving things or having any relations with WW whatsoever in the future. But, at this point I'm better off without that anyway. It really sucks, but she's the one pushing the buttons, I'm just doing what I have to do.

I didn't want to fight either. But it was a HUGE mistake not to seek legal advice.

And I'm doing fine now.

Ex is "sorry" now that the affair ended, but I'm done.

Protect yourself.

Great advice believer, you have to protect yourself because you don't know what will happen in the future.

ILA, I've been trying to learn more about your sitch from your other thread, but I'll admit I haven't read the whole thing. Your WW sounds exactly like my WSTBXH. He moved straight out of my house in with OW a mere 2 weeks after D-day. He refused to talk to me about anything at all other than dividing things up. He initially wanted the house and all its contents in exchange for a pitance settlement to be paid to me over a few years - it wasn't even enough to rent an apartment with. Our house had not lost value due to market, but it was (still is to an extent) in need of repairs that were visible enough to prevent us from selling it for what we owed. I almost took his offer until I found out about the A and that OW had already made plans to move in. There was NO WAY she was going to set foot in my house, despite it seeming impossible to keep it myself (I also communte a very long distance and can't be home to do regular maintenance, let alone repairs).

Now, I ultimately chose not to persue recovering my M. However, before this I attempted a very poorly executed Plan A, and upon my decision, went into a modified Plan B (no letter, not 100% dark but I never, ever contact him and he only rarely contacts me). I did (and still do) do what I can to improve myself and feel better about myself. I'm about 8 months further out from D-day than you so I can tell you what WSTBXH has responded to and how.

First of all, every little thing I asked for in the separation sent him flying into a rage. It was beyond anything I'd seen in our 17 years together. However, the next day he would agree to it. He made horrible, horrible threats, some of which I caved into but some I held my ground - he never followed through on them. He ended up taking a pitance from me rather than the other way around. I did get legal advise and I did learn how things work here. He has also cashed in all of his RRSPs, taken on a 40 year mortgage with OW on their new house, borrowed to the limit of his/their line of credit and used every "do not pay until..." promotion to buy the absolute top of the line appliances and furniture. I am protected from these actions because I separated myself from him legally and financially very early on. He can't possibly carry the debt load he's created for himself and unless he is run over by a bus, he will be in trouble. I will not.

All that said, looking back from here I can see where I probably could have actually saved my M. In fact, I'm not so sure I couldn't still do it if I chose. When I switched to Plan B (my modified version), his attitude towards me definitely changed. When he does call now, he's much more civilized. If I deny him whatever he is asking for, he still blows up BUT he's the one who calls back right away because truthfully, I don't care anymore that he's upset with me. I'm really starting to feel like *I* am the one in control of the situation now. He's still doing crazy things - things that even people who aren't that close to him can see are crazy. I am far more protected emotionally than I ever was. He has essentially behaved exactly as the vets here say WS's behave in Plan B.

I guess what I'm saying in a long winded way is that getting a lawyer will NOT ruin your chances for saving your M. In fact, it may even help your chances in the sense that you can let the lawyer do the things that might be percieved as LBs. It will also help ensure that you aren't ruined financially - so that you can execute your plan A/B without having all THAT on top of the emotional baggage you now carry. Not to mention, how do you think you are going to feel when your WW takes what little you have in the way of assets and uses it to fund her little love next with OM? Talk about adding insult to injury!

It is hard and you have my deepest sympathies for having to endure this, as well as my admiration for the efforts you are making.

ILA:

Listen to your lawyer. ANd you might need one for the divorce, and another for the mortgage work.

The loss to the lender will be on your credit report for seven years. Good stuff on the report goes away, Bad stuff stays forever.

You making the payments saves your credit and HERS. So what. You are linked until the house is sold.

DO NOT REFINANCE.

Repeat:

DO NOT REFINANCE.

IF you refinance, then ALL THE DEBT IS YOURS. ANd since it's refinanced DEBT, you can't short sale and screw the lender. You get the screw from the lender, because you are still liable.

There is a diffenerce between the debt incurred at the initial house purchase and then the refinance debt. You are in a better position RIGHT NOW.

WW in on the HOOK.
Bank loses the money if short sold/foreclosed, etc. And the recent tax law changes favor you to not pick up tacxable income from that transaction also.
Your still in the house.
WW WANTS IT FREE AND EASY.
STAYING in the HOUSE doesn't quite get her there.

Even if you move in tenants and start renting the place, either as roomies or your out completely.

DO NOT REFINANCE until the housing price exceeds the debt. AND KEEP The WW on the debt until then.

LG

PS: DO NOT REFINANCE

The trouble with not refinancing is that as long as ILA is financially linked to his WW, he is not only responsible for the house debt, but any debts she racks up while living with the OM. Stories on this site alone show that this can be extremely costly. At least the house is an investment, though it may not seem so at the moment. The debt ILA would take on his own could be bargained against other things, such as pensions, retirement funds etc., that WW might be willing to give up in exchange for her half of the debt. These things can also help ILA negotiate a do-able mortgage, even if it is far from ideal but could carry him through to such a time when housing prices return. If her name is still on the house when that happens, she will be entitled to half the equity which will be far more substantial by then and ILA might still end up losing his house to pay for that.

ILA, talk to your lawyer. Also talk to a financial advisor. Gather all the information you can. Make the financial/legal decision based on what is best for YOU. MB principals will help you salvage your M. Keep the 2 separate in your mind for now.

I believe a LSA can seperate out debtand keep ILA from being held liable without ILA having to refinance his home. My now husband and his ex-wife could (we're in NC).

HTH

Thanks for all the great input. Tabby, I'm glad to hear your story (not glad that you've had to endure it of course) but it gives me some insight. I really am curious how WW will change once I take the offensive legally and move towards plan B. Great knowledge to have...thank you!

I will not refinance. I know about the only choice I have is short sale. Since it is 1st loan the bank eats the loss, not me or us. Yes, my credit gets hit, but I'm told short sale "settlement" is much less destructive than foreclosure in terms of credit.....and I still don't know if judge can rule my credit should not be affected due to circumstance and my willingness to do what I can to not screw the lender....have to see about that? So, Don't worry LGolfer....I won't Refy.

As for new debt...even without LSA filed, I can still easily prove the date of actual separation (voluntary move out by WW...12/17/07...and that legal stops the community property thing here in CA....meaning any new income or debt after that date is not linked to me in any way. I will double check all that with L today though. I've been keeping pretty good financial records since this all happened so I think I'm covered.

I just want to find out if there's any way to legally make WW continue to pay her share of mortgage and house taxes (due in a few weeks).....whatever her legal share of that cost turns out to be. If she completely stops paying for anything then I'm screwed.....it'll be foreclosure. But, if she pays some I can likely get by long enough to get the house short-sold and have a lesser credit hit.

Tabby, wife has said she'll let me have everything in the house except some of her personal belongings. She wants to "trade" that for her getting to dump the house in my lap and getting to just walk away. This is how she did it in her 1st M (gave H house and belongings in exchange for some cash which she bought a car with...and walked away easy). Her Mom and Stepdad did that her whole childhood....just dropped everything and moved when stepdad got in trouble with law/finances...moved almost every year of her childhood. That's what she knows, that's what she's trying to do now....drop everything and walk away. Of course, things like that also tie into WHY the A happened and WHY she got scared after getting married....but that's a whole other story!

Thanks for the help everyone!
ILA

That sure explains a lot. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Good job on retaining a lawyer, ILA. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

He/She should be able to help you get a good handle on your situation, and to get a plan in place to protect you as much as possible.

BTW, I've noticed that you're sounding stronger. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Lori

I guess I can add to that: When I talked to OMW in late Jan. she told me OM was going to continue to pay rent on their apartment through March then OMW was supposed to have found a new place to live.

That same week (this was shortly after exposure to workplace and WW was very hostile threatening immediate D) I convinved WW to wait a while before doing anything rash like D filing.....she said she'd give things 2 months to "see if anything has chagned" but then we needed to move forward with D and doing something with the house....ironically 2 monts from then takes us to the end of March...which coincides perfectly with OM's sit.

Now that is approaching and I know WW is getting antsy and probably getting pressure from OM to take action. And, finally seeing L this week got her all riled up and on the warpath too. I'm sure she'll back down as soon as she finds out I'm not going to roll over.

So yes, I guess I knew this was coming and shouldn't be surprised. They've had this timeframe lined up from the start. So, that explains the TIMING of this. The WAY WW is going about it comes from her past habits. Either way it all really SUCKS!

The most likely and best case scenerio I see here:

Get her to sign a QuitClaim deed and tell her you will pay/assume the entire mortgage and taxes.

In return you get her to sign off on everything in the home.

As was pointed out above...just because she signs off on the house doesn't mean the mortgage lender is releiving her from liability. They won't.

Then you move forward and either short sell (not likely) or go the foreclosure route. During foreclosure you often get to retain possession of the home RENT and TAX free for an extended period of time (6 months + however long it takes them to kick you out which is often longer nowadays...the sherrif's are too busy). During this period you SPEND your money, have parties, whatever...until you are eventually kicked out.

Then you go bankrupt and indure the 7 year hit to your credit being sure to list any possible liability to former wife in the paperwork. She's still on the hook for the entire debt even though she gave you everything.

This is especially nice if there is other stuff besides the house she's "giving you" for taking on the debt.

I don't like WS's...so screw her. This is the way nearly everyone is doing it...which makes it right, right??? (I know it's not right but it's within your legal rights)

Mr. Wondering

p.s.- btw...don't take financial adive from the very bank you owe the mortgage to. They are trained to tell you what is in THEIR best interest...not yours. Seek competent legal counsel.

ILA:

Work with your lawyer 2 come up with the best plan for you, and that's legal and firm with regard 2 dealing with your WW. There's no reason 2 go out of your way 2 shaft your WW. She's doing fine in that area on her own (she just doesn't realize it yet).

WSs are thoughtless and s2pid. They only appear malicious.

Last time I heard, you still love her. And this is marriage builders, not marriage blasters.

-ol' 2long

2long, I totally agree w/ your post. I'm angry right now but in no way am out to hurt my WW. Even though she deserves anything she gets, I'm not looking for vengence.

I do love my W very very much and if she would wake up tomorrow and say she wanted to work on things....we'd do it. Above everything else, I want to save my M.

But, she's leaving me no choice right now. She's starting to screw with my well being and my future....so I have to take a stand. Unfrotunately that includes filing for D too. It's the last thing in the world I want to do, but what choice do I have? I guess there's always a chance that by going on the offensive it might jar her enough to wake her up.....but there's a slim to none chance of that right now.

Mr.W, I'm admittedly intrigued by your suggestion. I don't think it's the "proper" thing to do....but?

My biggest decision right now is the house. I think I'll put it on the market hoping for a farily speedy short-sale...but that may not happen.

I'm going to try and convince WW that she needs to keep making payments on it. I hope to get 1/2 from her this month still and on the taxes due in April....that would help a lot.

Afterwards I found out how the responsibility works. Our mortgage is $4100. We both have a right to the rental value of the house....say that's about $2200 (need to confirm). Since I'm living in the house I'm responsible for that $2200 towards the mortgage. That leaves $1900 that we are equally responsible for. Monthly amount of taxes and insurance would work the same way. So I'm on the hook for about $3150 and her for about $950....that really sucks.

If I can at least get her to fulfill her legal resonsibility, I could probably make my $3150 for a few months....but not for a long time. I may be able to keep up long enough to short-sale the house.

If I moved out of the house then both W and I would share the whole mortgage ($2050 each)....b/c I would no longer be responsible for the rental credit......but I would then have to rent an apartment on top of the $2050....so that does me no good either.

But, I have to figure out if it's worth me to continue to sink money into a house that I'm going to lose anyway....and that will still negatively affect my credit. Maybe foreclosure is the best way?????

Does anyone know how much worse foreclosure is on your credit as compared to short sale??? Short sale is essentially a "settlement" on the debt for less than what's due.....just like settling a credit card debt. I know it's not as bad as foreclosure, but they are both negatives. Do I throw money at a sinking ship just to go from foreclosure to "settlement"? I obviously need to talk to the credit bureaus and get more info. Anyone have thoughts on this?

I could also try to get a roomate, but I don't have a clue who it would be. All of my friends in this state are married and not looking for a place to rent!

What other property is there besides the house????

It appears to me you are both going down the tubes financially. Your wife, as your financial partner has shafted you. She has withdrawn from the "partnership" and wants to completely stop paying. It makes sense to her...she's getting nothing in return for each dollar she puts in. Now, you can try to talk some sense to her and get her to pay one or two more months such that, in that time, you can attempt to short sell it and save you both some grief. You can bet, though, that if she has the legal right to rental income from you...she will take it.

I just think you tell her that if you don't short sell it you'll take it over, no problem. Besides it is a decent Plan A move. It's what she wants. Makes you look brave and confident. Absent a short sale...it's the foreclosure route anyway and then you can live there rent/mortgage free for 6 months. There will be no excusing of the debt so it's likely bankruptcy for the both of you. (though I am an attorney, I've NO experience in this side of the law).

It's not punishing her. These are the consequences SHE choose when she backed out of the partnership. It doesn't appaear she even cares much that you both are going down (though if she made previous payments on the mortgage though not living there...those were guilt gift payments).

Regardless if she's your wife or not...shielding or attempting to shield her from any of the consequences for her choices only enables her. It will take her that much longer to hit rock bottom and potentially come to repentence. Her eternal soul is at stake and as her husband NOW...allowing her to go to rock bottom unimpeded is actually a gift of compassion in the long run.

Protect yourself...get her to sign off on any and all other property in exchange for relieving her from mortgagae payments. You're getting shafted left and right down this path...I don't think you'll regret one second standing up for yourself and protecting yourself just a little bit.

Another consideration...such other property...what's she gonna do with it if you split it up??

If you don't take it and exercise some care over it or spend it...is the bank gonna get it anyway???

Be strong and assertive. Just maybe you'll save your marriage in the process.

Women respect strength and all to often "good guys" end up "foolish guys" in the divorce process (like my friend who went to meet his stbxw at their marital home to divide up the personality only to discover she'd moved EVERYTHING out the day before behind his back...year later when the divorce was finalized she was barely punished at all for such aggregious behavior).

Mr. Wondering

p.s. - does your wife still have the key to your house...isn't that still tantamount to access even if she's not sleeping there? What's her driver's license list as her residence?? Does she still get mail, even junk mail (save it all as proof)???

oh we crossed posted.

Interesting that she gets a "rental credit"....mmmm, she may even waive claiming that if she thinks you are going to take over the whole mortgage payment yourself (maybe waive is a bad terms...you are just picking up her part of the mortgage payment...the rental credit is still in there since she's only be releived from paying her portion of the mortgage payment less the credit in exchange for all the other property). However, if you stop paying the mortgage...can she claim you must pay her back rent and how does she go about collecting that if she can???? Is it a dischargeable claim in bankruptcy???

I doubt she gets landlord rights wherein she can evict you as a defaulting tenant if you stop paying the mortgage. Find out if she can kick you out during the redemption period (I presume your state has such) while you continue living there rent/mortgage free.


Mr. W

Dang...always forget to log myself in when I get on my lovely wife's laptop.

Sorry if I confused anyone.

Mr. Wondering

ILA:

Perhaps in addition to the DV lawyer, you should consider meeting one who specializes in real estate issues.

We had 2 do that about our income property that my SIL was suing us 2 try 2 force us 2 sell it 2 her at the price we paid for it - never mind it had more than doubled in value in the 4 years we owned it.

We discussed various options with the lawyer, including one where we refi'd and carried the loan for my SIL to buy it at a fair price. We knew she wouldn't keep up with the payments and leave us in the lurch even2ally, but our intent was 2 try 2 set the price and interest rate at a value that would be attractive enough that we could sell the loan 2 someone else and in effect hand the "problem" over for someone else 2 deal with.

But landlord/tenant laws are pretty weird, and in So. Cal are grossly skewed in favor of the tenant. For example, when my SIL changed the locks so we couldn't even get in 2 inspect our own property or prepare it for sale (she stopped paying us anything months earlier), there was nothing we could do until we'd gone through a lengthy eviction process. We ended up waiting for her lawsuit, then agreed 2 meet with a mediator (retired judge), who helped us come up with a settlement that would get her out of the house so we could sell it. We did that, though it took another 6 months, gave her a check for her "share" (which she never deserved, but it was worth it 2 be all done with the process - if we'd fought the lawsuit and proceeded with the eviction, we'd still be at it now, and probably for a year or 2 more). She refused the check, so we stopped payment on it about 8 months ago. Haven't heard a word since.

That's getting pretty off track for you, sorry.

Maybe what I was getting at is, while it might be legal 2 take her 2 the cleaners or down with the ship as you sink with it yourself...

...do you really want a fight over this extending in the fu2re and crimping your personal recovery longer than you've known her?

If your lawyer(s) can find as equitable a way 2 do the "right thing" - the FIRM thing - the JUST thing, and do it sooner rather than later, wouldn't you prefer that?

I would think preserving your credit and as much of your finances as possible should be your first priority.

Maybe, your WW will at some point be impressed by the stand you take now. But based on her his2ry, and the very short duration of your marriage, I wouldn't bet even my own pocket change on it.

-ol' 2long

Only other property is furnishings....which are probably 80% mine from before we met....so I would keep them anyway. I think that things we bought together even before M would be 50/50 (because we bought them together) and of course anything bought during 6 mths. of M would be 50/50....but there's not a whole lot when that stuff is considered....definitely not enough to entice me to "trade" any of that for the house situation!


Best case scenario....that's my first attempt I think...try to guilt her into doing that, threaten future lawsuits, convince her she's putting me out on the street otherwise...whatever I can do to keep her contributing half until we can sell. Then we short sell and save some credit worthiness at least....but I doubt she'll go for this. She sees it as throwing away money on a house she doesn't live in and that she doesn't feel she HAS to pay for.


Yes, she does know this I found out. Probably this is the most logical option with the best chance of me getting her to go for. She pays her share towards the mortgage after rental credit (around $1000/mth). Then I can try to make up the difference until we short-sell. But, I have to decide if it's worth it to keep throwing money at it for month after month if we are going to have to short-sell or even foreclose in the end anyway. I could see her pitching in her $1000 share b/c she can afford that much and she the fact that I'm putting it on the market shows "progress" to her. She actually commented that she was "surprised" I actually called the realator to start the process.


Yes, this is an option. I'd like to avoid foreclosure at all cost but if short-sale isn't all that much better for my credit (????) and if it doesn't look like I can short-sell it very quickly....it may not be worth the extra money....might need to just save the money and foreclose.


I don't know anything about this either.....are you suggesting we'd both be responsible for the mortgage debt if we foreclose??? With short sale we are NOT responsible for the amount the lender would lose....it's a settlement.


I think a combination of guilt payments and that she didn't know her rights.....she just assumed she was resonsible to pay half and hadn't thought much about it. I'm sure OM talked her into playing hardball.



As I noted, the other property isn't worth enough to entice me much.....but if I decide to just foreclose anyway....I might as well get the other stuff too, right? The credit will still hit us both whether or not she gives me the other stuff.


Yeah, I'm hoping for something like that I'll admit....but it's a REAL longshot.


Yep, and normally I'm that good guy that trusts way too much. Not this time. I really don't believe she WANTS to hurt me but she's so selfish and worried about her own situation that whatever happens to me really doesn't matter to her right now. Basically, she's in the Affair FOG and can't see straight....I know my W wouldn't act the way my WW is acting through all this. She just wants to walkaway with no suffering....just like she's done her whole life.


Hadn't thought of it that way. Yes, she has key, still gets some mail (she's changed a few things), etc. Maybe I can argue that she really is still "living" there. Although I have to be careful b/c the date she moved out is also the executable date for "separation" and ceases the community debt after that date.

Nice racket out there in disneyland. I don't sleep at my cottage up north...but I still possess the keys, have my fishing license indicate such address, receive mail there and voluntarily pay the bills without apprehension. I'm getting ripped off...when my wife and daughter spend a few weekends up north Michigan without me...maybe I can make her pay me some rent. Maybe I can offset it from the groceries budget. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Point is, as I believe you know, you'll have to look closely at how "separated" is defined in the divorce laws versus how "living there" is defined in the contract, landlord-tenent, banking/mortgage or whatever laws. She certainly exercises a degree of possession when she retains the keys and comes and goes as she pleases, et. al. You have not changed the locks on her. Whereas, it is apparent what date she separated from your marital bed.

Good luck...don't drag your feet on all this to long (snicker, I said "2long")...as the foreclosure route is only where I predicted you will most likely end up because that the end of the line and it takes hard work and some luck to avoid that eventuality. It's gonna/gotta be harder for a recently betrayed spouse. People who haven't been there don't understand, infidelity is abuse and it's tough to pull yourself out of that marital bed, day after day and PRETEND to be functioning.

On the bright side, I did, coincidentally, speak with a title company representative friend of mine this afternoon who indicated that banks are aggressively attempting to work out these short sale situations. They DON'T want your house on their balance sheet. They figure sell it now, for nearly anything, is better than taking a much larger hit WAY down the road after legal fees, court costs, redemption periods and another year of disrepair on the underlying asset only to get the same THEN market price. Besides...one year from now they could be out another 25% if the market keeps diving. They want to assess and sell NEW loans not manage bad loans.

For example...my friend just sold the title policy on a home which in 2005 someone bought new from the builder in Macomb County Michigan for $210,000. On a short sale the bank allowed the seller to sell for $140,000. and right off the loss. So what I'm saying is..if they are going to write of the short sale anyway, the sales price means nothing to you...your job is to work hard to convince them the house is worth LESS...LESS...LESS such that you can actually sell it and move out quit quickly from this fiasco (and pushing for a 30 day allowance to get out).

Mr. Wondering

p.s. - See your wife was impressed you called the real estate people. Taking control and assertive action IS Plan A stuff. She thinks you are likely a needy mess which is whimpy. Look good and hold your head up...you aren't the only one with financial problems in America and you only slightly caused yours (by overbuying in a new marriage). Consider what you want to be able to tell people in 5 - 10 years about how YOU handled and overcame this difficult and challenging moment in your life.

You funny guy <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


That is an excellent point and one I may use to "influence" WW into continuing to contribute to some mortgage in the short term.


That's for sure....I fear the day when this all catches up to me and I have a total break down! I do feel like I'm "pretending" to function sometimes....but what other choice is there right? Life goes on.


This is pretty much what I've heard too....that's why I hope I can get it sold fairly rapidly....we'll see. Plus, we haven't paid anything yet..we have no equity. Bank has already gotten a year and a half of interest....I know they'd much rather write off the loss than have a foreclosure.


I hope you're right and this all might actually help the M situation in the long run....but we'll see.

Tremendous post, Mr.W (or your alias Mrs. W!).....great insight. This was very very helpful.

Have a great weekend....I'm off to a party tonight and hopefully can have a little "fun" actually!...getting MY life started again <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Don't make your life MORE complicated

STAY AWAY FROM ALL WOMEN

You are an emotional basket case right now.

Unhealthy emotional women will find you irresistable right now.

Don't go there and complicate things even more.

You ARE still married and your wife's infidelity does not in any way justify you committing adultery.

Play poker with the guys but don't mixx alcohol and women at all.

Mr. Wondering

Hey 2long....you mentioned a real estate attorney u used. Was he/she good? Would you recommend them to me if you still know the name?

I'm discussing house options with lenders, but might want to get a consultation with RA lawyer too.

Thanks

Hi ILA:

I was trying 2 decide whether 2 post anymore (recovery really started, don't want 2 lose momentum), when I saw you asked me a direct 2uestion!

Anyway, our RA lawyer was nobody special. In fact, their firm specializes in corporate real estate law. He was recommended 2 us by our realtor. He did a decent job, considering the circumstances we were dealing with, which was pretty different from what you're facing.

If you bought your house not 2 long ago, and you got along with your realtor, consider calling them back for a referral 2 a RA lawyer.

-ol' 2long

Thanks Buddy for the reply. Best of luck to you.

I finally filed for D...just got pushed too far legally and financially. Last thing I wanted to do, but wasn't left with much choice. Quite honestly I'm about there emotionally too. Turns out WW filed also and I found out today she actually beat me by a day....I guess she's the petitioner and I'm the respondent now....oh well.

The few times we talk now it's pretty much a guaranteed defensive struggle. The only reason we talk is because of legal stuff or finances and that always ends up getting us both upset. She is so selfish and so disrespectful right now that I can't even stand to speak to her.

I guess I'm pretty much at plan B....or maybe even plan FU....not sure. I haven't officially left plan A but my will is pretty broken right now. Unfortunately I can't be in touch with her and feel what I should feel...I'm so upset and angry that I just avoid her and try not to think about her. I can really feel things slipping away for me.....so that tells me a lot.

There's so much focus on immediate financial and legal issues right now that I think the emotions of our R have taken a back seat.....at least for me they have. I'm sure I'll go through another period of missing WW and longing to have her back, but unfortunately we are combatants at the current time.

Thanks for the info. 2long, I'll keep trudging through this issue with my house. We'll just have to see what happens.

Hi ILA- sorry you're in this mess....

I am a loan officer, and as far as a bank will see a short sale v. foreclosure- it's pretty much 6 of one, half dozen of the other. A foreclosure has to be 3 years out to get another home loan, same with a short sale in this day and age. If things ever loosen up again those timelines may shorten. I remember the day when I could get 100% financing for someone 1 day!! out of BK. Alas, those days are gone for BK and short sale.

Hope this helps.

HTH

Hey HTH, thanks for that input. I really thought it was worse than that. Only 3 years? I'm surprised.

I did talk to a friend of our family who is a bank president back where I'm from in Ks. He really thought that it will all depend on the circumstances when it comes to getting future credit.

Good thing is that all my other credit is spotless (I just got my 3 free credit reports and there's nothing negative on there...finally!!!). Credit score has jumped up to 730 which I think is ok? So, the clean credit coupled with the fact that wife is walking out on me and leaving me holding the bag on our mortgage.....well he thought that would make a big difference. He said that with the state of the market and the housing crisis, that lenders will be really taking into consideration all of the circumstances regarding your personal situation.

This makes me feel better.

As a lender, have you seen evidence of re-writing loans to simply reduce the principal amount down to current market value? That's really the only reasonable thing that will enable me to afford keeping the house on my own.....rewriting the loan to something that I can afford on a monthly basis.

Lender (HSBC) is offering me some "relief" in terms of lowered payments for 6 months at a time.....but that's not going to solve any problems for me long term....so it really isn't an option for me.

HTH, do you think there's a possibility of a large lender like HSBC giving me a break on the amount of the loan itself?

The way I see it, it is still in their best interest. If I foreclose, it's not good for either of us. If I short sale, I lose the house, lender gets market value or less, and lender also likely loses the loan and interest they get from me. If they would re-write the loan to market value that I could afford....then I keep the house and lender keeps the loan and keeps making interest off it.

Is this even an option or is this a pipe dream??? Anyone know?
Thanks
- ILA

As for the D situation with WW.....well, it's getting uglier. The only time we talk is to fight about finances. Her L sent me an asinine letter last week telling me if I let her out from under the house loan, then she wouldn't ask for anything in return. But, if I wanted to litigate it they'd be seeking $4000/month since the day she moved out. Until recently she'd been putting $3800 a month into our JOINT account and I'd been paying all of OUR bills (hers and mine) and the mortgage using her money AND mine. It's ridiculous. L is threatening to get me to pay WW more money than she even makes in a month....doesn't even realize all of her money has gone to pay her bills and her share of mortgage. This L is a real dip sh*t....I can see what a scum bag he is already. Should be fun!!! Brutal part is I've almost lost my focus on any plan A or plan B right now.....it's essentially plan FU. I can't even stand to talk to WW right now. The MB isn't really going anywhere right now. I think I need to write a letter or two soon with plan A-intentions....then follow up with a good plan B letter shortly thereafter. Then I'll just have to leave it at that and walk away. Really sucks....only 3 months after DDay and only 9 months after marrying the "woman I will spend the rest of my life with". Man, she's soooooo f*cked up!