I think you're right, it is my old self trying to resurface. A certain consciousness telling me she deserves to be punished, that she needs to feel losing everything. But even scarier, is the thought that MAYBE we really are unable to reconnect, unable to shed this load, not able to see each other as husband/wife anymore. I'm not quite sure but I'm very aware of feelings on both sides. I think it's good to see from an objective point of view. It seems like we're going somewhere, not quite sure right now but it feels as if we're feeling out how to treat each other with that respect you talk about. I keep that thought of suddenly "switching gears" in my head always. If the time comes that the commitment is verbalized, I want to be able to fend off the rush of feelings I know I'm going to get. I'd almost rather we slip into the recommitment nice and quiet so there isn't that sudden expectation. We're doing a good job at what were doing now, I think we're ok. We've got a long way to go on this subject, especially since is where we dropped the ball when I had my A 5 yrs ago. She never has forgiven me, she's been harboring this resentment for me all this time, it finally came to a head. I don't want to do that again no matter which way we go. And until she decides to come onboard, this will be a subject waiting in the wings. She's got alot of work to do on her own before we can work together. I don't know that she'll ever ask for that help or get it, but I'm hoping she realizes she can't do it on her own. She's mentioned it but has yet to do anything, if she has, she's kept it from me (which wouldn't surprise me). O&H is something I'm not real confident in right now. I chalk it up to my natural mistrust for her right now. I don't trust her, at all. I don't make it a point, or argue anything or even try to contend things I believe to be untrue, just sit back and observe. She makes no effort to change that perception so it's just what it is. I want to trust, I believe I will one day. Not sure where I'm at with this. I don't beat myself up like I was in the beginning. Actually, I think I'm almost there. I did accept all the blame for this situation at first, took it all. Now I accept none of it. I didn't do this to us, she did. We had issues as do all marriages, I had an A, many others too. We could've taken any number of options other than this but she chose, now we're here. I accept it. I'll forgive myself one day, for treating her bad, for not cherishing her like she deserved.

I'll get through the rest of the book in the next couple of days LA. I'm about to read about "healthy relationships". Should be a interesting read, I wonder if there is anything I can identify in this chapter. Thanks again though, another piece of the puzzle that fits. I'm getting better at staying in the "now". The sadness is still there but not overwhelming, like a companion.

Ciao

I'm glad you're making progress. I wish I had a magic pill for you.

Embrace your old self...it's your earliest. Don't harangue or reject him, 'k? He wants the magic pill because there really were magic pills when he was created...one to make him stop itching (you KNOW that's magic), one to make him not sick; one to stop his own heading from banging on itself. Those pills still exist...don't deprive yourself of them when your head bangs, 'k?

And the voice which justifies punishing her back to get her back...is reasonable, too, from that same age. Remember as boy how you would get into scuffles with your friends, when someone took something said wrong, or a gesture...and you'd beat on one other to get the other to stop hurting you? (My DH explained this to me, and yes, we girls did it emotionally, through abandonment, to one another, too). And then afterwards, you'd be even, clear, okay with each other? Each got your licks in? Made emotional pain real in physical pain, which could be dealt with.

Know you're already dealing with this pain...and you do NOT want back a mate you manipulated into coming back into the marriage. We think, in our earliest selves, that at least they'd be back...if we really could make others do what we want, we wouldn't want that life...there's no way to be chosen, loved for who we are really...which is why that signal in you says, "Hey, look at me in here!" meaning your focus is all over what you cannot control.

And this process teaches you that you were loved for who you really are all along, fully, completely...you were always chosen. May not feel like it right now...remains so, 'k?

See how faith is essential to our existence, to actually know reality? Quirky, I know. Still true in God's design...faith, what we choose to believe, determines how we experience our lives. Choose wisely.

Know when you cannot see, Dino...you ARE husband and wife. Right now, you are. You can't see, feel, reconnect right now in ways you are used to--so you have new ways to learn. Humans connect and disconnect all the time...it's amazing during crisis how you can see this most clearly. Disconnect validates you were connected...and connecting again means you are able...we all are able to do either. Both are necessary.

Usually, it's when we disconnect from ourselves we experience the most pain. Be mindful...embrace, not reject, what is within you. I see you doing that in your post...I'm kudo'ing you and highlighting, 'k?

Great to know you're practicing respect...which is KNOWING she's a whole, complete, separate and equal person, and that you are. That her choices, actions, stuff is about her, and always was...and so was yours. That's the resentment buster. Because you have eliminated your LBs, you are showing more of who you really are...which is stunning, I promise. Feel that spark and light...it's you. When you do, you see it more in her...and btw, you're not going, getting or arriving somewhere. We exist in this one moment continually...you're already there, 'k?


Take your focus off her forgiveness...and ponder this: When we don't forgive others, we don't forgive ourselves. Forgiveness (just as the rest of our stuff) goes both ways. Think about your own forgiveness...when you stopped back then to get hers...something was there...something said or done in you...which dropped it out of top priority. Use that knowledge of what it was right now and align to what you don't want to happen this time. Because it won't...you'll stay aware and work hard on your own forgiveness of her, and her of yours. Also, think of how forgiving she is or isn't of others, the kids, relatives, old friends. Gives you a better perspective, 'k?

Then flip it over onto yourself and see your own patterns in relation to forgiving, forgetting, distracting or reliving. Then share, Dino. Share what you find in yourself, about you, with her.


More kudos on choosing to not believe she's acting O&H. You act O&H, anyway. She hasn't recommitted to the marriage, through NC and transparency, so there is not trust rebuilding on her side. Mind yours...because you lost trust in yourself for not seeing, predicting, changing fast enough to have made her infidelity not happen (hear that little guy again?). And you betrayed yourself, for we all do, in many ways in the last year and half. Use your distrust of her to rebuild yours within yourself, step by step, 'k?

Your faith that you will choose to trust one day is terrific. Way to go...that's faith. It's real. It's just not right now.

Your personal recovery is as essential as your eventual marital one, 'k? You're working it well, stick with it...and you will be ready and aware for marital recovery.

This adult experience, btw, breaks an old belief..."Can't have a marriage where there is no trust." Uh, yeah you can. Temporarily. Too bad we didn't believe, "Can't have a marriage where there is blind trust." LOL. Well, we know now. It was really empowering and helpful to me to not trust my DH and know we were still married, still partners, equals in one union.


Oops, I jumped ahead on the self-forgiveness above. Sorry 'bout that. I repeat. I do. Thank you for your patience. Accepting what happened and what is--wow, quite a breakthrough. Pain isn't in acceptance, is it? Not TAKING responsibility away from your partner respects them. Think about your self-betrayal in doing so...and remember, forgiveness mirrors amends...you own what you did to yourself (wanted to take all the blame so you'd have all the control, be the cure, the magic pill); why you did what you did; and how and why you won't do it again. I think you are almost there because you have all of that...except the how. One of the factors in how you won't...you won't go into her stuff and make it your own (don't steal her stuff), including responsibility that cannot be yours because you're human.

You figure out the other how's...they are yours.

Might look to your permission to believe people deserve anything...we have inherent choice...whether we deserve it or not. I'm allergic to "deserve" can you tell? That's my thing.

We are worth everything; we don't deserve love or punishment...we ARE made of love and we choose to experience pain as punishment. We are valuable and worthy. No deserve in it. We are loved continuously, without ceasing. Doesn't mean we experience life being made from love itself. We still are.

Sadness is your slow-release magic pill, Dino. You're learning to accept it, lean into it a bit...let it find and mark the injuries, salve and cover them for a bit...and show you where you hurt in the light--sadness is healing. Depression is when you cannot stop your little guy from saying, "This shouldn't have happened" and living in fantasy. Sadness leads you to totality in acceptance, so you can thrive.

LA

LA

Thanks for the time once again. I read your posts and your words make me think, they make me use my thoughts in ways I maybe never would have before. I'm kind of tired right now so forgive me if I get a little unfocused. I didn't sleep well the last few nights, don't know why really, maybe a little to warm at night. We don't have A/C her in England so fans are the best we can do.

Anyway, little things change over the course of days, weeks, months. My ultimate goal is still the same, save our marriage, help it to be healthy and happy and a place we both want to be. Short term though, changes by day. Right now I want that pain pill. I just want the hurt to stop, I know it's going to take some time but it's draining me big time. Today has not started out as a very good day. You never know when those days come, they just do. I feel like crap today, I'm lonely, I want some companionship bad, from my wife. Not going to happen but i can want. Today will over soon enough so I have tomorrow to look forward to. First instincts were that I didn't care how we stayed together, just that she was still here, not anymore. I don't want her here if she's not really "here". I deserve better, she's disrespected me all these years, I could've made appropriate changes if I was not living up to expectations, if I had known if wasn't filling ENs, if I knew my account in her love bank was drained so bad. I could have, I would have, I want to make her happy, I want to promote a healthy place for both of us. But I was misled, so if she wants out, I want her out. I deserve better than to be satisfied with someone who has "settled". Forgiveness has so much to do with where we are right now. So much to get through. So much work to be done before any of this can even happen. We're just here, not really trying to do anything. I take that back, we're getting closer, in my opinion. Closer is relative in perspective, closer than 6 months ago means she actually talks to me. At least it's progress.

Sorry, but this is going to be half a post. Have to run. I did a phone session w/Steve Harley today, went well I think. We'll see how it goes over the next couple of weeks with his suggestions.

Ciao

How can it be a bad day when you talked with Steve H?

LOL

Just kidding.

Please know that there's no time limit on your response...I can keep track of you without response probably for 15 days in a row.



Yes, it's incremental change right now in your marital perspective; sounds like much larger, rapid changes in your personal recovery. Like watching two races at once...of turtles and dolphins. Tough to do.

As for sleep...can you get the herbs for melatonin over there? Sure helps me...or Valeria (a relaxer). I don't sleep as well in the summer, anyway, because I can't cuddle with DH--he's a furnace man. Great for winter, though.

LA

Hey Dino! I'm sorry to hear you are having a rough day today. I know you'll get through this too though. Have you noticed that your bad days are a lot less frequent? I have

So what did Steve Harley advise you to do? I am curious!

So here's what we came up with. She's is angry, upset and in no way ready to think about getting back into the marriage. She's too afraid of what may happen and doesn't think there is a way for us to fix things or make them better for us. Here's what he suggested: stay away from marriage talk, speak with her about things that can help her be happy again. Tell her that we can find things to help her be happy again and that there are ways (and he told me to say this by quote) "there is a way for you to be in love with the father of your children again". Let her know that I am more concerned with her happiness and health right now than anything else, and truthfully, I am. He asked me to tell her that he wanted to speak to her (I don't know how that will go over) he said present it in a very non-threatening or condecescending way. "I spoke with a guy who is a marriage coach, he has some very good ideas that I think we should look into. We aren't unique, our situation is repeated thousands of times a day. I feel like we have enough riding on this that we should explore everything we can and give it a shot. I really think he can help you see things from a diferent angle and maybe present you with some things that can help YOU be happy again."

I just don't know, she was so adamant about not needing to talk to anyone, at least she actually said that MAYBE she should, but still screamed about "what is that going to do for me, they can't make me feel better, they can't make these feelings go away" I don't know, I do know that if she doesn't get help from somewhere or someone, we don't stand a chance, there is too much junk on both of us. We're not even close to strong enough to wade through everything without outside help. I pray that she can see that some day. I doing my part, I really think I'm getting better about everything, but the more I see, the more discouraged I get about her. She's banking our entire relationship and life on what she feels will happen "naturally". I can only do so much.

All in all I think we had a good discussion. I feel a little disappointed that it really won't do much good without her participation. I already knew that. It's so depressing to know that there is a way, there is a path to happiness, there is a way to make things right, to help us be happy again and get us on the path to recovery, but one of us is just being so stubborn. Can't make a decision on whether this is important enough to make the effort, which is causing a little resentment on my part. If she doesn't feel our family and marriage and kids are important enough to do EVERYTHING humanly possible to make it right, then maybe I shouldn't waste my energy, energy I could use to heal and start on my own path. Just another oe of the million thoughts that go through my head everyday, we'll see.

Ciao
hope you weekend is good...

OMG, that is *SUCH* a good phrase!! Man, I wish *I* had thought of it ... LOL! It is a really subtle way to remind her why she should fight for the marriage. There is nothing more motivating to most women than their children. Genius.

Do you think maybe when you talk to your wife about getting counseling that you make her feel defensive? She might not like the idea that she NEEDS help or that there is only this one way to do things. I know I get my defenses up when it sounds like that. I would be more responsive if it was just something to try rather than something I must do. In my opinion, it IS possible for her to find her way back to you "naturally" ... I feel certain that that is what she would want if she could choose any outcome. I think she just can't see how to get there right now.

Please don't discount your wife's efforts to straighten out your lives. It might not seem like she is working on things to you, but remember, she has a lot of healing to do on herself ... herself being 50% of your marriage ... before she can go to the next level of working on the marriage. Indirectly she is working on the marriage if she is truly working on herself. In fact, all the work you are doing on yourself is indirectly working on making your marriage better too. Be more generous with yourselves ... you both should get more credit, I think

Anyway, hope you have a good weekend too!

I really appreciate everyones help. I'm stuck. My wife knows everything there is to know about relationships, we're going nowhere. I told her about speaking with Steve, she thinks I'm a friggen weakling. "Nothing anyones can say can teach me anything I don't already know about what I need to do for my marriage." Still hung up on the past, rehashes everything everytime we talk, it's been 7 months since she came home. She just wants to be alone, won't deal with anything. Everytime I want to talk it pushes her further away, she tells me so. She wants it all to go magically away and somehow things will happen naturally, I should be understanding and wait, or not she says. Of course when we go back to the states she gets to be with the kids since she's retiring and the kids want to go back to arizona. Why would they want to go with me to some other crap hole. So, she gets to be on her own, she gets the kids and I get $#@&^. If I raise a stink and take the kids with me, I'm the a$$ in the relationship and not looking out for the best for the kids. I lose all the way around. No have nowhere to turn, Every direction I go it sucks. This whole thing sucks and I don't think I can take it anymore. Of course I can't do anything about it either. I can smile and suck it up, or I can do something stupid and make SOMETHING happen, may not be good but at least we'll be headed somewhere. I'm in a impossible position. "Wait, until I decide, don't know how long, don't know why or when or anything. Oh, and I'll enjoy the kids while you're stuck in BFE, hope everything goes good for you. I do care for you and I know your guts and ripped out, and I know I have you bent over right now, but you need to figure out a way to deal with it. I hate to see you like this but I'm not going to do anything to make it better. Oh, why do you look so upset? I thought you had a good time at the gym? I just don't understand why you have to be so salty all the time. Whatever, you do whatever you have to do, haev a good day."

This sucks, I'm done.

LA, Snuggle, I really appreciate your help. Everything can work if both parties are willing. She's shut down, even time is doing nothing. She'd just as soon spit on me as she would give me a kiss, I'm her friggen husband for crists sakes. She's the one who screwed this up. I asked her to look me in the eye and tell me our marriage was bad enough to slpit apart, she couldn't give me a straight answer, her stinkin desire to be righteous about this whole thing is going to cost us a marriage and my kids a normal friggen home. I hate this crap, I'm still going to try but theres nothing to look forward to. She says she has to peal back layers and heal one part at a time. My layer doesn't hold much priority, even the friggen OM and his poor career hold more importance than me. More important than herself even, or the welfare of our family, she doesn't see it, she's lost her mind. I don't understand she says, I'll never understand, I'm so done with this.

Sorry, I don't even know why I bother trying to talk about our relationship. If I could find a way to be away from her, I would start a new life. I can't take this roommate stuff, she's fine with it, it's easy when you don't care for the other person. I wish I could change my feeling for her, I do it in a heartbeat. I don't want this feeling anymore, I'm sick of it. I think I'm starting to hate her and there is nothing I can do about it. I'm going to tell my older daughter and my brother in law when we go to Hawaii. I don't even know, I just need to get it off my chest, just to be spiteful. It's not going to do anything other than someone knowing why the families strongest couple is getting a divorce. I don't know anything. This not being able to curse is killing me. I need to write 6 pages of profanity real bad. How do I get so wound up. I'm just tired of this whole thing. Moving apart can't come soon. I'm going to miss my kids, she's a f'ing [censored].

Sorry guys, sorry if I disappoint you. I'm not as strong as I thought, I haven't made as much progress as I thought. I haven't made my self any better than day 1. I'm still a sniveling needy worm I was 7 months ago. I don't think I can do it. I just can't see things from her prospective, it just seems so eays to me. You either want it, or you don't. Make a friggen move. The only reason she's doing this is because she has the upper hand, were stuck with no options. She wants to get out of here without too much damage. As long as she can get back to the states, she's going to be good to go. I on the other hand, get the shaft, as I always do. I just want to forget all about her. I want to take down all pictures of us together, I'm turning into a psycho. I already got rid of my picture with her at work. I deleted all pictures I had with her after she came home from deployment. I just want her out of my mind. I'm tired of her infecting my every thought, I want her gone, out of my head. I don't know how to do that and still stay halfway, friendly. Of course I'm the bad guy in everything, I mentioned taking the kids with me, she freaked, called me names, said I'm selfish and spiteful. She's right though, Going with her is the best for the kids, no matter how you look at it. So, I'm screwed. My old lady slept with soemone else, she gets to move away from here with my kids, I haev no arguement, if I did, I'd be the selfish one who isn't looking out for the kids wishes. Whatever, I'm sick of thinking about it, all day everyday. My life sucks.

I just want to be friggen normal again, worry about my grass and gas prices and when I play golf next. Not thinking everyday about how my marriage and my kids lives are going to be ripped to shreds because of some self serving wench who had an "epiphany" about her life while she was sitting on some other guys lap. Hows that for friggen irony. "you're the perfect husband, the perfect dad, I'm so stupid for not wanting to love you, I can't help it, i hate it. So just hang in tiger, I may find some magic love potion one day."

eat #&&*! I still didn't LB or DJ during our talk, I sure I would have, it was right on the tip of my tongue. Why didn't I? If she's not wanting to save or marriage, why should I give a crap about anything she says or feels. She's just another one of the sorry weak females I've seen a million times who just can't fight off the "nice guys" who come out of the woodwork during deployments. with a 200 to 1 ratio guys to girls, they get alot of attention, they were soul mates though right? WHo am I to stand in the way of destiny. "He made me feel good, he cares for me" friggen pathetic. And I'm the jacka$$ stting here taking it all, waiting for what?

Not an ounce of change. Nada. I'd be gone if I could be.

Dino,

Thank you for spewing.

There are so many things you can take with you, for the rest of your life, from this experience. Please breathe and focus on this one right now...

"I will not take in what is not mine."

Fear has you by the tail...know it and don't move. I hear your fear of your children choosing to go with WW and not you. They don't know why their world is falling apart...they know of "troubles" not "choices." Fill them in on the choices. It's what you said you would do in the future, if you choose to divorce. Okay, since we're spiraling in the future...include the data. You both sit down and face your children and own the adultery. She explains what she lost career-wise for hers, how she chose to continue contact, knew how much pain that caused in you, that she refused to pursue any marital counseling because she already knew it all, chose not to research or understand forgiveness, and owns she is choosing to break apart her intact family.

Then you say what you chose...to work on recovery, learn how to have a marvelous marriage, an intact family, to forgive what seems unforgiveable, learned to communicate, connect, about great rules to relationships, sought out marital counseling, even without WW, the books you've read, the prayers you've said, and how very much you want your family intact, whole and together. See, it's one thing for her A (not yours) to be a casualty of war...she hasn't been in that war for seven months now and still feels entitled, full of resentment and lacks respect. The mindset continues...and it was there prior to her A, the war and everything.

We parent by example...we teach our children to ask for what they want most and let the outcome go...which is self-respect. You can ask for your children to come with you, in this future-placed event, and I believe they will. For to them, with knowledge of The Truth of actions and choices, they would not want to abandon the parent who fought for them, even within himself, and add to the family's betrayal. Without the truth, they will do so...and they will hate not knowing, acting selfishly because their parents lied to them, daily, for months and years. When they do know, you won't be able to touch that betrayal in them...how worthless, angry, fear-filled they will be when their choices in their own lives was manipulated so grievously.

Kids are casualties of the military life. You know they are. Hard enough to get a grip on reality while growing up; when you keep changing the scene, the environment, even through a four-year stay somewhere, they know they will leave...permanently mourning loss, place of being. In another way, it teaches them how much their parents will sacrifice for a higher cause...which is the protection of many, not just the family. And how they will even sacrifice the protection of the family, everything that they say matters, that they fight for...confusing as all get out. You know this. You both have taught your children that sacrifice is good, noble, highest calling...

And your WW sacrificed for years (in her mind) for the good of the family...built a trench of resentment, entitlement...do you not think your children will do this, as well? We parent by example.


Your answer "I hear you saying that you are choosing to not speak with Steve H because you believe you know what you need to do for your marriage. Would you be willing to share with me what you know?"


Is this her statement, like above that you quoted; or is this your assumption, perception?


Real fathers don't fear looking like an a$$. They know they are not. They know that raising a stink to have their children with them to end the cycle of sacrifice, resentment, entitlement which taints every relationship they will have as well as their careers, is imperative. Important. Big enough to be seen as the bad guy...many heroes are seen that way...and they do it, anyway. That's the way I look at it...and you said there was no other way. See how you cut out choices and then feel choiceless.

Did you really follow our advice on your thread to limit R talk to no more than 20 minutes a week at a set time? Did you use the other 19 hours and 40 minutes to play together, one on one? To listen to what may seem trivial in comparison, still shared to know and be known? Practice the self-affection techniques, share what you're doing and why with WW as O&H drivebys? Have you lost your focus on your half by striving to her to act from her half?

Have you lived most of your life anticipating something? Something to look forward to? This is worth because when...in relation to many facets and choices of your life? If so, stop. That's the fantasy of missing your whole life right there...the future cannot be present...and you don't have to endure, sacrifice right now to get to the good stuff. The good stuff only takes place right here, right now.

If you will bribe yourself to endure for the future, then that will be the place of your undoing, as well. Right now you have an intact family. Right now you aren't split across several states, alone, without your family. Right now you have everything you need to thrive, and you're depriving yourself of affection, admiration, appreciation, acceptance and care. You're doing that and you're blaming her. That's what I see.

Is she the one wanting this to magically go away or is that really you, Dino? To have a transformation, a do-over...because you can't recover if you don't stay present. Recovery happens, like the rest of your life, in the right now.

Rehashing the past...when she does, listen and repeat, "I hear you saying that you justify your affair because of mine five years ago. I get that. I understand that's your perspective." Validate and acknowledge...does not mean you agree. Tell her how you are uncovering your layers to heal from her A. Tell her the steps you are taking for the forgiveness process.

Won't deal with anything is a huge DJ that is the reason you're spiralling right now. She's present. She is there. She isn't doing what you want her to do, when you want her to do it or in the way you want it done right now. That hurts like crazy...and you're doing that. Could it be you tell yourself you're not dealing?

Dealing is choosing...tiniest choice to the huge ones. How are you making your tiny ones...like focusing on lack of affection versus acting affectionate? How are those non-verbal communication exercises coming? How about the verbal ones? Taking the walks, seeing new things together, daily? I don't believe any of these are happening and that she's the reason. I believe your fear of rejection, your self-image, is the way you are sabotaging yourself right now.

The "as soon as spit on me" was the clue, btw.


Both of you have to examine your layers to heal...and part of healing is acting from love when you don't have loving feelings. You take the action to HEAL inside what you ruptured, what tore at you...each time she reaches to take your hand is an act of healing; each time she listens and repeats what you share...listens...stays...stays present is an act of healing. For we do this when we feel numb, in an abyss or if we are raging...when we act from our belief, not react to our present feelings, then the loving feelings follow. And this finally breaks the enmeshment of giving to get, tit for tat...that earning love and punishment...so two whole people in one union know they exist, know where they begin and end, and prize each other equally, respectfully and experience real and enduring love.

Takes one person, Dino...and that's you. You have been betrayed and you can choose to end the marriage. What I'm seeing at times is that you go so far into her stuff, you are experiencing what she felt for five years, the back and forth, the DJ distortion, the feelings from those DJs, and the cutting out as if it stops the cutting.

Your pain comes from inside you--your own choices and beliefs. When we believe we can build walls, stop pain from eliminating others, we are in self-deception...which is required to do that which we most regret.

Snap out of it.

Your pain from minute-to-minute rejection is intense, it's real and it causes incredible pain in you. It always has...think about the ways you've experienced it before, going way back...when you felt annihilated, unjustly treated, wiped out by someone's rejection of you. Might have written 12 pages of profanity in an effort to express just how badly you hurt. How about writing one page where you trace that hurt to the belief inside of you? Your choice to believe her stuff as the truth is one I can see...she's having a terrible time with the ongoing, unending consequences to her choices...and so are you, IMO.

That would be fertile ground to talk about. Your fear and anger of not having seen years of consequences to your actions...acknowledging what she and OM did, equally, tore apart decades of relationships...with their spouses, their careers, their children...and how it will affect decades more...when they see their children's choices, too...and their future spouses.

Where her thoughts dwell is out of your control. The more you're present, sharing and committed to act from your own code, the less opportunity she has to dwell. You believe she puts OM and his destruction ahead of her own family. She isn't. She's putting her shame, like a false power, in the top notch...and she's refusing redemption just as she refused your acts of redemption. This remains about her, Dino.

She didn't see your choice of infidelity to be about you. And when you spiral like this, you're not seeing her choice of infidelity to about her, either. Don't go the same road, please. Doesn't lead to reality, to healing, understanding or acceptance. Continues to harm, reinjure and that very cycle is one of pain...keeps swinging the pendulum.

Be still.

She cannot replace you. You are irreplaceable. So is she.

When she says you don't understand...tell that's a disrespectful judgment and you don't do those anymore. "Are you saying you don't perceive I'm understanding what you believe because I believe differently?" Get to the issue behind the issue. Yes, we act to redeem...that's part of it...actual understanding, hearing how her own shame has run her entire life on the treadmill of earning love is worth hearing about.

You are not who you were seven months ago. You can experience being that person again when you go into that mindset again. It's not real...it's how DJs work...they work to regress, to control, to give you the experience of fantasy as reality. You know you're strong because you have acted bravely. You can act more bravely. What I see in your post is Plan FU...where first you lay out all your DJs before you, write them down...and what you truly don't know, you ask and hear her state her stuff.

You ask, is this true for you? And then you state your feelings, your experience from those DJs...and from hers...and you know a better way to live. She's welcome to it.

The damage is already all around you. You're adding to it in yourself. Stop it. You have made her your enemy, which is fantasy. She is your partner. Sure isn't your experience right now. Know that truth, anyway. Know that not exposing her A was your choice...now you hunger for others to know the truth...to know you're not the bad guy.

There are no bad guys in marriage. The blame-game chokes off true selves and lives solely from self-image. That's why folks can be married for years and say, "I don't even know you anymore." They never did. This is your chance to really know and be known for who you really are. You can take it or keep wrestling the old way. If you divorce, your next relationship will face the same issues, again and again.

No one wants that for you. When she calls you name, enforce your boundaries. You can notify the family in advance of Hawaii and ask them to help you save your marriage. That's what exposure is about...and you chose not to do so for a reason...get to the bottom of that reason.

Confess to WW that you are now attacking your marriage...about deleting her pictures, removing them from sight, making her your enemy, when you know in your heart, she was the enemy of your marriage, not you. You could have gone to Plan B to perserve your love...she could have left, stayed with friends, gone no contact except through an intermediary, even in England. You chose not to--look at the reason you refused to be responsible for your own love bank, and see if part of it is in still striving to get the symbol of love out of her so you could feel differently.


This is how you got here, Dino. You got to right now by anticipating, looking forward to when the life you wanted began...and that's how we all lose what we love. Everyone of us. You are not the perfect husband or dad...you are uniquely qualified because YOU ARE her husband and your children's father. She can help it so you hear her lying. Say so. "I hear you believe you can't help not acting from love. I know you can. I know I do. I don't feel any love for you and massive hate for you right now. I'm acting from knowing I choose to love you, so I'm listening, discussing, not reacting to my feelings right now. Feelings change based on our actions."

She is the potion. Up to you to know it. We all discover this after it takes what it takes for each of us.


You know the answer to this because it's why you're having these intense feelings: When you base your choices on someone's possible response, you are slashing self to bits. You are saying, "I am because she feels I am"...not real, total fantasy. She isn't acting to end or save your marriage right now. She's present. She's at home. You're choosing to fight for your marriage, even yourself, anyway. Because your code has honesty in it. You want to do the right thing in wrong circumstances. You want to be able to look BACK and say you did all you could and are better for what you learned, experienced and know now. You care because you choose to care, not based on her feelings. That's the enmeshment. That's the crux of why you spiral. Stop hurting yourself, Dino. It's not real.

Stop lying to yourself, too. You would be gone if you could be. That's fantasy. You could have removed yourself from the home many times...you could have filed for divorce already...finances or no, you'd find a way, even in a hostel. That's not who you are, though. You are choosing to not be gone. You are choosing to not react to your feelings and flee. You won't do that to your kids or yourself, or the marriage. That's why you aren't gone. Be honest with yourself.

In knowing this you know your power...what you don't allow yourself to do. Then you can see better your WW's choices in what she isn't and choosing to do. Cleans out the DJs. Reality does.

We often feel stuck...we aren't. Knowing that difference, between the experience and reality is what I see you most wanting to know. We feel stuck when our thoughts dwell on lack, on what we don't have. We feel stuck when our thoughts dwell on someone else's choices instead of our own. Truly, your power remains constant, inherent...so do your limits. You cannot make her do, feel, think, believe, perceive, view anything differently than she does right now. You can choose to hand back to her what isn't yours...her stuff. And focus on your own stuff...choices you are making and will make...hold them up to your code and see how much pain they may cause you or not.

See if they are acts of love from a man who is undeniably MADE from love. Who is whole, complete and beloved. See if he's loving through honesty, respect and acceptance himself or not.

Honesty is the antidote of shame, I believe. You have been keeping her secret with her...taints you, hurts you, and so you spiral. Your choice in acting from your honesty, asking for what you want and letting the consequences go is really important. You weren't meant to live in the dark and rail against it. You are light. Understand you are.

LA

Yikes! Is it safe for us to come out of hiding from behind the sofa? Cover me LA!! LOL ... just kidding

Sorry, I deal w/ stress by making jokes. Dino, I wish we could be there for you in real time so we could help you not get so wound up rather than seeing you totally wound up and hoping to say something to help you unwind later. Oh well. C'est la vie, eh?

I think LA covered all the main things in her post so I just want to add that I am not disappointed in you at all. I don't expect you to be perfect and never slide back into old habits. When you do, it is not a sign that you haven't made any progress, just a sign that you are human. Trust me, I think anyone who has been married can relate to your vent and has at one time or another felt like their spouse was the most evil being on earth with no other purpose than to kick you when you're down. It's just your anger talking. You are more than your anger and it will pass.

It's going to be OK. Whatever happens, you will find a way to cross the bridge safely. Just keep your head on straight so you can see where you're going

All my very best hopes and wishes,
SnuggleFresh

Why does she do that? This morning she hugs me before I leave and says "whats wrong? Why do you look so down and tired? Are you ok?"

Hmmmmm, my marriage sucks, my wife doesn't love me, I'm 4 months from being separated from my children. What could possibly be wrong? What on god's green earth could possibly be making me upset, why am I not smiling and planting flowers? Why in the F#&^% am I not skipping through the tulips?!!!

Stupid, stupid, stupid. I need to get my [censored] together. I may have overestimated my resolve, overestimated my strength. I'm not feeling too strong right now. I'd just as soon be done with it. I think we're both just waiting for the other to make the move to end it, neither of us strong enough to do it, but too weak to do anything about it. I ended my last marriage (highschool thing, 18 yrs old, stupid) so at least I know I can do it. I might as well be the one this time too. Then she can have the satisfaction of saying she didn't end it. In the end, it really doesn't matter anyway, just a crying shame that it went to waste.

Who am I kidding, I'm not going to do [censored].

Easy there Mr. Crabby! You KNOW you have a habit of negative thinking that is not good for you and right now you are letting your habit get waaaaaaay out of hand. For goodness sakes, put the brakes on!!!

Get rational ... you're a man, I know you guys like to think this is your forte First of all, you haven't even found out where you're going to get assigned next right? Isn't that coming up next week? So you could very well be working yourself up into a frenzy only to find out that you are going somewhere your kids would love to go. Even if it isn't AZ, you don't know what your kids are going to pick. They might rather live with you if it comes down to that.

Second of all you do not know that your wife doesn't love you. Your wife doesn't even know, so how can you? You are just being negative and presuming that she is ultimately going to decide that she doesn't love you which is silly because that just guarantees you're going to act in ways that push her towards thinking maybe that's what she feels. What you do NOW will influence the ultimate outcome. It's like turning in homework ... you're grade isn't a done deal... you can make it go up or down.

I know you're not feeling strong, but keep going Dino. Hang in there. Don't quit. Quitting is the weak thing to do. It's the easy way out. Not doing "poop" takes guts.

Take it easy on yourself today, k?

You actually made me giggle on that one. Mr Crabby? ha ha!

I get so frustrated. I know we're not anywhere different than we were 3 days ago when everything was going just fine. I hate those dang relationship talks, they just get me down. She's so negative about everything, everything is bad with her, we didn't do this, we didn't do that, we're not going to fix it, I can't see how it'll work, I can't get over this or that or whatever. It's draining. She gets me so mixed up.

Today we had to go to a meeting that helps for our move planning, something we have to go to. She sends me an email in the AM and it ends with "love, Jen", hardly ever does that. Then after the meeting we had lunch and after we walked out, she went to her car but gave me a peck on the lips, first time in months, WTF? I just don't get it. I'm not complaining but it is what it is, right?

And yes Snuggle, you're right again, I don't have any idea where I'm going yet. Won't know for sure until August 15th, my options come out tomorrow at which time I submit my preferences. The assignments will come out while we're in Hawaii. I'm a bit of a pessimist as you can tell, I prepare for the worst and I'm usually right. Maybe for the first time in my Air Force career I'll actually go somewhere I want to go. Prepare for the worst and you don't get disappointed, that's my motto. And you may be right, the kids might decide thay want to go where I'm going, that would be a blessing. Snuggle, i'm so depressed right now but I've been in this spot before, it goes away.

And I may rant and rave on here but I don't do that at home or in front of her, what a wimp right? Boy, I got no sleep last night either, sleep aids did nada.

Thanks for the lift Snuggle, i sure needed it. i knew this wasn't going to be easy and it isn't. I do miss her though, I miss her so much. She's in there somewhere, I hope things don't get out of hand, I'll do my part to keep everything sane. I feel this terrible ache in my heart, shouldn't it have eased a little in 7 months?

Maybe a good workout tonight and early bed will help some. I'll need to get my homework done early though.

Be good!

LA, Snuggle, I've been wondering if, since things aren't working this way, but she still seems to have some sort of affection for him still, whether Dino should stop walking on eggshells and just start being honest with her. What do you think?

It just seems like sometimes people don't get forced to look at themselves in the mirror, so they continue their destructive ways, kwim? I know I'm basing this off my own situation, where my H doesn't even know I'm unhappy, or doesn't WANT to know, and I say nothing, so he gets to continue doing all the things that make me miserable.

I know it's different in that MrsDino may not want to stay with Dino but my H does, but isn't it the same thing? She talks as if she doesn't understand what this is doing to him, he says nothing to try to keep her happy and keep her from running away from him, so in the end, she gets what she wants. And Dino suffers.

I think if they weren't in their living situation, they would have gone to Plan B by now.

So what do you think of him telling her the truth from now on? Making her aware of how miserable he is. I say this, because I really REALLY get the feeling that, since he's not overtly hurting all the time, she has told herself it's ok if she leaves him, because, after all, he's doing fine!

Cat, I agree...

In my last post to you, Dino, I mentioned Plan FU...only I think you can do this daily without LBs or cursing in it, as implied, rather than one big blow up.

"I miss my wife terribly. I hurt right now." would have been the answer to her question...as you soaked in her affection (not rebuffed it).

Whether it would a one-time Come-To-Jesus session or daily O&H statements, Cat, I think you're getting what I'm getting...that she's not getting this. All through Dino's filter, though, so we really don't know.

Snuggle, your way of dealing with stress through humor is terrific. And honest. And I got nothing to cover you with...except to charge out from behind the sofa with ya.

LA

Hey cat

I know this was directed at LA and Snuggle but I thought I'd chime in. you know cat, I think about that al the time. I hate pretending to be happy happy joy joy all the time and I don't. But there are alot of times I put on the smile when I don't feel it. She does know how bad this whole thing is making me feel, she tells me she does anyway but says she can do nothing for me, doesn't feel it. To tell you the truth, I guess I do walk on eggshells around her. I really don't know. I believe this to be true also. It's exactly why I didn't deal with my actions back when I screwed up, I was like a kid who got away with stealing. If there are no consequences, why should I take responsibility. I think about the same for her. I want her to feel the heat but at the same time, how do I do that but show her support and let her know that she can be forgiven and that she can forgive herself. Of course she paid a very hefty price for her actions, much more than I did. She lost her career, lost her chance at her ulitmate goal of making the highest rank and now has her awesome career tainted by the worst of mistakes. That is one of the biggest things she struggles with. She saved me from soemthing that she ended up paying the ultimate price for. Ironic like nothing you could have imagined, but I don't feel sorry for her. To tell you the truth, I'm glad she got caught and I'm glad she got punished, because I'm too friggen soft to do it myself. She had me as an example and she still screwed up, she deserves everything she got, I hope her boyfriend gets put through the ringer, I hope he does some jail time, I feel for his family, not an ounce for him. If I had known for sure that it was him that I confronted in Italy, I would've beat him until he was close to dead, i truly believe that. He is the worst of cowards, I'd gut him myself if DNA didn't exist, you can't get around that stuff anymore. I'd make him look into my kids eyes before I cut him though. She tells me that she is dealing with a whole host of emotions like guilt and anger. If I add to that then I'm cutting my own throat. Thats where some of this MB stuff is so confusing. It all makes sense, but only you can tailor it to fit your sitch. None of it works on someone who is not committed, almost like a marathon Plan A. I'm still trying to get her to want to stay married, much less do anything other than that. She on the verge of going, so any negative push I give hurts me and our kids too. Of course this isn't all my responsibility, she has to bear some too, but right now she's not here to fight for us, so I have to. Another accurate statement, at least it's my opinion. She would've moved out to an apartment, we may be at a better place if she had done that, who knows, it's all speculation. I just know that it's alot harder to do here. LA was right also though, had either of us really wanted to go, we could've done something, we would've found a way. Another MB perplexer. I thought if I looked and felt and acted like I was happy and good to go, she would come running back. I get compliments from her all the time, "your body is getting better everyday, you are so sexy, women all want you, you can get anyone you want" but nothing from her. I think cat is right by saying that she feels better about what she did because it looks like I'm doing just fine. Don't get me wrong cat, i'm not all that good at hiding my feelings. She says she hears me crying all the time and says it doesn't help her deal with things so again I'm a source of pain. I'm still not convinced she is going to leave me, not yet anyway. She's got the perfect out right now. All she has to do is make it until Nov and her and the kids get to go to arizona with no pressure from me. I know it's better for the kids to be back home with family. I would never be selfish enough to move the kids with me for only a year only to retire and move to arizona myself. That would be stupid on my part to move them both in the last 2 years in highschool, especially moving my daughter in the middle of her senior year! No matter how you look at it, I'd be the a$$. I even admit if I did that, it would be strictly for spite and not for the good of the kids. She knows this, so she just needs to last until we leave. Then she can get her time alone, without me, still have the kids and not feel pressure from me anymore, for awhile at least. Who knows, it may work out for our better marriage, I don't believe it but I'm open for anything. Look how much good our last separation did.

Bottom line, she says she just doesn't feel like loving me the way a wife should, just doesn't feel it and doesn't see that it will ever come back. Wishes that things were different but they aren't and she doesn't want to, or isn't willing to do what CAN be done to renew or regain those feelings. Just doesn't want to. There are no external forces working on her, no OM to sway her thinking, no fantasy she's chasing. Just doesn't want to be my WIFE anymore, or doesn't feel the feelings she should to remain my wife. These are all her words, not mine. Everytime I hear them, I ask her why she's still here and I get the same answer. "I can't go anywhere right now. Wait till we get to the states. I have all this stuff I'm dealing with Dino, why are you pressuring me to make a choice, I'm not in a healthy state right now, if I had to choose, i would leave you AT THIS MOMENT. That's her thing, "at this moment", that what she keeps saying to me. "i don't think it would be smart for me to make a rash decision while I'm in this state of mind. I need to peal back some layers, find out what I really want, who I am. I've lost myself. Maybe after some time, i'll get the desire back to work on us". That's what I hear from every talk we have, verbatum. I heard it in March, I'm hearing it in July. Here's the next step, "maybe after we go to hawaii, and we get some time to clear our heads and focus on family instead of whats here" or then it's, "I have to get out of England before I can be healthy at all, this place reminds me too much of all the bad stuff that has happened". Or "if the kids and I go to arizona, the time we have apart will do us good, maybe we'll be able to miss each other and start something good". I already miss her, I don't need friggen time apart, I need my dang wife back. Whoa, slipped a little there.

just some thoughts, it was supposed to be a quick one, sorry...

LA

I don't want to seem to dumb but I'm not sure what plan FU is? Is it what I think it is? The FU?

And you're right about one thing, she is not getting this, at all.

As for affection, I try to do that without giving her the GAG reflex. She says she doesn't want me touching her, it makes her uncomfortable. How do like that for your soul, my touching my wife makes her uncomfortable. But she was plenty comfortable being "touched" by scumbag.

I do understand that i may be skewing all of this to my viewpoint but I am trying my honest best to paint everything in an objective light. It would do me no good to get advice based on false data from you guys. I respect you all more than that. I'm a desperate man, my feelings can't be hurt anymore.

And LA, I haven't forgotten your long post, I'll be working on that one.

thanks again for all your support

This reminds me of the book The Dance of Anger. In it, you learn to pull away from your 'helpful' habits, your Giving, so that the other person can learn to hold up their side of the bargain. However, when you do that, that person might go into 'take back!' mode, where they get uncomfortable and try to guilt you or coerce you into supporting them again. In your case, it would be her telling you you're making her uncomfortable by being unhappy.

The book says the solution for that is to say, as you're explaining why you're pulling away (in your case, why you're finally being honest), you reassure her that you love her, and that you are doing this change specifically BECAUSE you love her. That you're not abandoning her or doing it out of spite, etc. Doing that, saying that extra point, shows her that no matter what is happening, no matter if you're suddenly seeming mean, you're doing what you think is best for your relationship BECAUSE of your love. That way they don't freak out and start trying to figure out ulterior motives, maybe even become reassured.

The reason for the Plan B is to preserve what feelings you have left for her, as you watch her not return those feelings. It's possible that if you stay with her that long with nothing in return, you may start hating her for it, or at least losing your love for her. So Plan B is to separate you from the pain; it's for you, not her.

Of course, that is her guilt trying to make you feel better; if YOU feel better, she's not such a bad person for what she's done to you.

Dino,


Do you repeat back what she's saying with reality?

"I hear you saying you are choosing to not love me as your husband, to act from your love, so you will have loving feelings for me. I agree with you. Because you are choosing this, you won't ever feel in love with me again. I know that feelings follow our actions."

Not combative...and not backing away, either. Humans do and don't do...BOTH are choices.

"When you say you wish things could be different, are you saying you wish you were in love with the father of your children again? And I'm hearing you know how to do this, to fulfill your own wish, and you're choosing not to, is that correct?"

She says that OM is not an external influence? Is she saying she has gone NC for life with him, put him out of her thoughts completely? I didn't get that from your other post, where she put her concern for his consequences greater than her concern for yours.


Don't ask "why" questions, 'k? Don't set yourself up for more pain. Listen and repeat affirms reality, which are her chosen actions/words...not her stuff. Your choice to repeat why questions is like beating someone...you don't like their answer and you ask again...like handing her a baseball bat and saying "Hit me." Drop the bat.

"I know you can move out and live with friends, rent a room, go to a hostel. I know you are not choosing to do so right now. I know you can deal with your stuff and you are choosing to do alone, without me, your partner. I hear what you're saying, that you feeling pressured by me, feel anger and shame, guilt and confusion, requiring you to really work on you; and I believe what I hear you saying at this moment is what you said exactly to me four months ago. I don't believe you. You made a rash decision to have an affair, so I understand your fear of making another rash decision. Four months is not rash, IMO. I know you are competent and capable. I know you're choosing to not do what it takes so that no matter what happens to our marriage you can say fully you tried everything."


"I understand losing who you are in an affair. Took a lot of lies to myself, justifications, resentment and entitlement to do what I did to our marriage. I know the formula. I know you know it, also. I had to make myself believe you wouldn't mind it, you wouldn't be devastated, and somehow, you deserved it for what you weren't doing to meet my ENs. Lots of lies involved. I had to choose our marriage afterwards, change my ways, and know it was a choice I made by myself, about me, not you. Only way for me to stop punishing, blaming, resenting you, which is what blocked up reality for me, stopped my loving feelings, my desire to be married to you. I know you know this; you're living it right now. I miss my real wife very much."

How honest you get...how you repeat back her stuff as hers is crucial to where you are right now. Each time you don't and you take in, you add to your own betrayal. That's you doing it, Dino. I can't tell you any other way.

When she writes, "Love, WW" then speak...say, "Ouch." That declaration is what you really hope for...not for her to feel love...for her to own her choice to love you as her husband and then act from it, anyway. Instead of backwards living from her feelings and non-feelings.

So many times I had to look DH in the eye and say "I love you" when I wasn't feeling loving...when I was feeling resentful and angry...my declaration of my choice...and then I do feel the loving feelings as a result...reminding myself to live forward.

I'm not saying this for your WW...I'm saying this for you, Dino. Maybe what I'm really asking as you repeat all of her words...tell us your words. One why question and then your internal responses...we see it. You want badly to act out your stuff...a signal you're not stating it.

It's not acting happy happy, joy, joy; it's acting respectful, very present, aware--all acts of commitment. It's stating, not demonstrating.

"When you say maybe after Hawaii you'll choose to either work on our marriage or leave it, based on how you might or might not feel then, I hear you saying you're okay with physically, mentally and emotionally torturing me with your rejection of me and our marriage."

"My intent is to bring you reality as you say you are confused right now. My goal is clarity, as well. I'm not blind to your acts of cruelty, deceit, discounting and rejection. Nor am I blind to your choice to be here with us, your family, choosing to be present in our marriage. I believe you are afraid, even as I am, of all the damage you have caused and have no control over the consequences of it. I know. I remember for myself. I'm not writing you a blank check of forgiveness. I'm offering to work on our marriage for two years, together, and then decide. I want a shot at having what we haven't experienced in years; a thriving partnership, with respect for what we can change in ourselves and acceptance we cannot change each other."

You don't add to her guilt, her anger, her stuff...she feels what she feels. Validate she feels, acknowledge it. It's hers. She feels guilt for not living up to the expectations of others (the military, her family); and shame for not living up to her own expectations. Lots of anger, as you well know, for self-inflicted wounds. She's got a lot, over five years worth in my reckoning. You reflecting the truth of her choices isn't going to push/pull/turn her. It's you bringing reality, so you can stand in it, too, and feel the relief.

You know, I do understand the fear of recommitment since you've been sharing, that I didn't before. I was asking my DH to act vulnerable to me, share his stuff with the person he had to make into his enemy a short time before. I was used as his justification to do what he did, including tearing down himself. That's like a mortal enemy, isn't it? And then, to "work on the marriage" this is the person I gotta share with, be radically honest to, spend a lot of time with? Whoa. That does sound kinda crazy, doesn't it?

Yet we do it, anyway. We do so because our best thinking/reasoning got us in this mess, this pit of pain. Why not rely on objective minds to get us out of it, until we can get clear and think clearly?

Isn't that the reversal of believing your feelings guide you to what you really want? Isn't that how we break the backward cycle of not basing our own choices on possible response? We hold to our code and act, anyway. All of it is practice.

I hear you saying she is unwilling to practice...what did she say when you asked for her to do communication exercises with you each week? How about those 15 hours of UA? Your plan remains...your goal is yours...when we don't make ourselves take the steps, we fail our plan...our plan doesn't fail us.

LA