Try to stay strong my friend. My WW isn't even talking like we have a future. Keep your eye on the fact that yours is talking positive about it. Whats left of us in the end who knows. I wonder that myself if I'll resemble anything of what I use to (positive things that is) and what I'll be like. Just have to be your (good)self. If we don't end up lasting then does that tell us something? We're both starved for the touch. It hurts bad but it's a frame of mind thing and hard to get to that frame where you don't crave. I'm starting to get there though and I have no idea whether it will hurt or help.

You know, I guess that is the common theme in everything here. Trying to come to grips with all the things we took for granted in our previous years with the person we claim to love. I, for one, can say with a clean soul that I love my wife with every fiber of my being. I was one who selfishly created a world in which my "taker" had wrought destruction on everything that was once wholesome and pure. There was the weaker "giver" inside me witnessing the fall of our once cherished love and standing there doing nothing to stop it. I saw the pain in her eyes for awhile, then she built her wall.

Pride, the deadliest of sins, was my personal favorite. Nothing would be allowed that affected my pride, nothing. Not her feelings, not our friendship, not our love. Pride has brought down nations, countries, civilizations. It also brought down my marriage. If I had to blame our situation on anything it would be my foolish pride (wasn't that in a song?). Don't get me wrong, pride can be good, I teach it to my kids everyday. As with all things, it must be taken in moderation. I was sick with it. To question my manhood was to ask for a death sentence.

I loved her, as much then as I do now, I assumed that she could weather my horrible storm. That after all my thunder and lightning, the clouds would clear and she'd be standing there waiting for me as she always did. This time all I saw was the barren ruins of a once plush landscape. Rubble and remnants of a relationship torn from it's foundation. Torn from the healthy soil that it once grew green and beautiful from. I can still see what I think is a foundation, can she still see it? I can only hope.

I stood there, unbelieving, seeing with a clarity I once thought impossible. Seeing the person I cared for, as a stranger I had made in the image of my love. I thought I knew her but I knew her as she was, not as who I had turned her into. Yes I said it, what I turned her into. She was/is beautiful. She stuns me with her beauty to this day. A beauty that mesmerized me then, mesmerizes me today. I am longer no priveledged to witness such beauty from close up, I can only admire from a distance. I can see it from where I am with such vivid detail, details that escaped me in the past. Details that I long to touch, to feel once more. I want to feel the cool tenderness of her touch once again. Can she see the foundation still?

I am not a spiritual person. But I beg for help from a higher being. Not to do my work for me, but to allow me the chance to work for myself. For another chance to do work, worthy of my love's admiration. Worthy of the chance to once again be brought into her warm and tender embrace. To show her what a fool I was to neglect our wonderful garden. I've always had the tools to cultivate our relationship, they sat, unused for so long. They feel cumbersome and unfamiliar in my hands now, but at the same time, they feel so good. They fit me, as if they were made just for me, for us, and our garden.

For now I will work, and build, and sweat. I'll work enough for two. I'll make up for the lost time, time of selfish endulgence. Without the knowledge of what will come, but with the hope of what can be, what once was. Not to recreate, but to reinvigorate. To start a fresh new life, with new hopes and new dreams. A new life with my love.

Can we get there with all of our broken and damaged souls? I don't know. But we have been stripped, to the core. There is nothing left to hide behind, nothing to tear down. We are naked once again, bare to each other. I could hide behind the flimsy excuses of past failure but why? Why would she? Can she still see me from where she is? Can she see the naked me? The me asking for forgiveness of sins unforgivable. I can only hope.

Wow my friend, if I could of thought of those words I could have wrote them also.

I see your sting is as deep as mine if not deeper. I'm much weaker right now though.

Stay strong my friend, keep your eye on the goal. Mine might be lost forever now.

Snuggle where are you? I need a shoulder bad! Had somewhat of a blowout tonight, nothing awful bad though, I didn't LB terribly. I'm actually kind of proud of myself. I still feel like s*%t but better than I would've felt before finding MB. WW is still in some thick fog, I was hoping not, but wow, she is in there deep. I wrote her another letter as I usually do. Since I've been having some notions, I mentioned about the NC with OM and how I felt about it.

When I came to bed, she said she had read my note, I asked her about contact. She was honest and told me about it, she even told me she says "I love you" sometimes still ( I asked, what a dummy). WTF? Of course the river began to flow about how all the text book things in our marriage were wrong, do I need to recount the list? I'm not being condescending because of alot of it is true, I wasn't as good as I should've been. But not near as bad as she makes it out to be. She just can't let go of the past, not right now, maybe never but that remains to be seen.

I finally stood up strong. Will it make a difference? Who knows? I finally told her flat out no contact, she couldn't answer me. I asked her point blank, is her supposed concern for his welfare and his friendship worth more than whatever chance we had at our marriage? She couldn't answer me. Jeez, she could get in alot of trouble, more than she already has! I don't even know if I got through to her. She says she knows she's doing wrong, says she struggles with it everyday. Says she knows she could get in trouble, says she knows it's disrespectful to me, says I just don't understand that she can't change her feelings over night. She says she just can't find the right path yet, I told her to just stop, she went off on me about how can I be so righteous now. I was good, I was pretty calm, no DJs and kept reminding her of that. She just can't let go, she's still angry about her situation. We're at square one again.

She finally said she wouldn't talk to him anymore, I don't believe, but she said it wasn't because of our marriage, she said she'd quit talking to him because it's the "right" thing to do. Said she'd stop so that they don't get into trouble. I don't know what to do Snug. I'm lost again. I thought I was onto something but I'm still out there. Actually, I do think I'm in the right vicinity hopefully.

I told her if she thought it was more important for her to continue contact with him than to respect me and whatever small chance we had, she should just go with a divorce. She couldn't say anything. I asked her Snuggle, "is contacting him more important than our having a chance at saving this marriage?" she couldn't answer me Snuggle, in a way I think it's a good thing but then again, is it just the fog? Why is it so hard for them to see? Will she ever see?

At the end of each outburst, she just kept saying "I can't change overnight", I've never been harsh enough to suggest that. The only concrete thing I've ever asked from her is that she stop contacting him. I even told her not to do it for me, do it because she could get into alot of trouble. I asked her to be honest with herself, why take the chance? What can she possibly be getting from it? She says she's concerned about him possibly going to jail! I asked her again, point blank, what's more important, the possibility of him going to jail or the chance of saving our marriage, she says sarcastically "of course our marriage is more important". How am I supposed to take that? Don't get me wrong, I understand where it comes from. She's still in serious withdrawal and she even says she can't shake those feelings overnight, I told her I understood. I asked her what he was giving her from across a continent that would justify jeopardizing an already tenuous career? She couldn't tell me! I hope for her sake, she stops, just for her own personal safety. What is she supposed to tell the kids if she ends up in jail for cripes sake? I honestly don't want her to have to go through anymore pain on the legal aspect of this whole rotten thing. I told her that. She just doesn't see me as me, I'm the monster that ruined everything. I wish you could hear her, everything is from then, instead of "what now?".

In some sick way I see this as progress. Progress I thought we had been making was all a sham really. She never really moved anywhere. She says her feelings toward the marriage and me have no relationship with what she has with the OM, says she'd be the same way if that hadn't happened. I said "really, he had nothing to do with how you all the sudden had this epiphany about our terrible marriage?" even had a small giggle about it. I asked her if she really thought we had more bad times than good, she says "I can only think of recent bad things" I asked again "do you really feel that there is more bad than good in our marriage?" she said no.

One last thing, everytime we get onto the divorce subject, she gets all defensive about what we're supposed to tell everyone. She swears that the "monster" (me), will tell everyone in the family that she screwed around and that she doesn't love me anymore and that everything is her fault. Says "go ahead, tell everyone that, I'll take the blame for all these years I kept this family together. You screwed up first and I saved us, now I'm going to pay the price for everything you did to us because of my one mistake!" Oh, and another favorite of hers, "The only reason you haven't killed me or left is because you know that you screwed up first and now you feel like taking me back is repaying your sins!" I have to be honest, it does make it easier to stomach, but it doesn't change my outlook on anything. I could've hit the ground runnin' and get the heck out of here and been perfectly justified. She knows it, I've told her that. I don't feel any different about what I want us to do for our future. I stressed it to her again, if this marraige is over it'll be because she walked, on her own.

She says she doesn't think she'll be able to let go of what I did in the past. Says she proved it tonight by bringing it up over and over again. I don't know what to think. I still I'm in a good plan A. I think. Last thing she said was "ok, I'll do the divorce because you told me to, you made the decision for me" of course she said this because I told her if she couldn't break contact, she should just divorce, if that thing she "thinks" she has is that important to her. I told her two things before I walked out. Since she was laying in bed, I crawled up to her, her eyes were closed. I told her again "you know what I want for our marriage, I love you and I'll never walk away from you" and "if you think our marriage is over, you will be the one to make that decision".

Long night tonight, not much sleep last night, not getting much tonight either. Plus I'm still jet-lagged from being in the states. Sorry for the novel, had a lot to talk about.

Dino,

It's a sad thing when you start to realize that if they really want to walk then we should just let them go. After reading everything you've wrote I truely think your doing the best you can and taking your stand on NC is the best thing you can do for your marriage, you and her.

I'm starting to take a different approach in mine also much like yours. You have to take that stand my friend at some point. It's her choice what she wants to do but realize you are doing the best for your marriage and to work on things and hold your head up. You can't worry about whether she realizes action is needed once and for all. If she doesn't realize that then it is her loss not yours. Your much like me in wanting to give all you can now and that has been and is the right thing to do but if it's not being accepted then at some point it only hurts us more and it only hurts the future of the marriage more if there is any future. At some point there has to be given something back other then crumbs just to keep us alive.

I believe your doing the right thing and I believe I will be also.

You have to emphasize NC, because you will never have your marriage back without it. Don't say divorce any more because they can't think rationally. That's like telling a heroin addict they have to lose their house if they want to keep getting the heroin - they'll take the heroin!

Keep taking the high road; if you feel like going off on her, just close your mouth and don't say anything. Let her. Don't try to rationalize anything except NC at this point; it's pointless.

You may want to print out some of the material that talks about the fog, about rewriting the past to seem so bad, all the stuff waywards do. Highlight those parts and hand it to her. Tell her that you know what she's doing, and you know it's not really her, she's under a spell right now, and you're going to wait until she comes out of it. May not work miracles, but it can't hurt.

I think this would help me also. Where do I find the fog material?

cat

where do I find all the stuff about "fog"? I can't seem to find it anywhere, I'm desperate now. It's like dday all over again. I'm trying to get my head settled down again, plus my session with the doc today didn't do much for me. I can feel the fear creeping in, what is happening?

I think finality can cause you to suddenly realize hard decisions are coming...leading to panic. I'm in the same boat, but about money. I try to make myself step back and see the bigger picture - no one is sick, no one is dead, we have a roof over our heads, that kind of thing. Try to find the positives. Such as even if you divorce, there's no law saying you can't remarry; many people do. In other words, the only true finality is death.

Honestly, I have no idea where to find the fog stuff. If you go over to Infidelity and start a thread there, they'll be able to send you right to it.

I found it, thanks.


And thanks for the support, I'll chalk this up to one of those "steps backward"

Every step backward is a learning experience.

That is the truth. I came home and she was kind of pissy. Says I stress her out, don't give her a chance to "heal". Last night was the first time in 4 weeks a brought up anything to do with out marriage, and just wanted to know about the NC! She likes turns any attempt to talk into a history lesson on our marriage. I should've recognized fog. I asked her about the healing, she says I don't give her a chance to get over anything? What does she need to get over? She had the A! I had mine 5 years ago and I think she's still not forgiven me. Granted, we didn't handle it well back then but I have made many attempts to reconcile it over the last five yrs. She always tells me she's over it, "I don't care about that anymore". At least that what she said post A and pre-dday. Yesterday she finally came clean and said she hasn't forgiven or gotten over anything I've done over the years. WOW, i didn't know what to say. She's still in the fog, i wish I could help her. Cat, I've really been doing a good job with my plan A, I haven't LB'd since starting this 2 months ago. Not long, I know, but I haven't made anything uncomfortable here. Actually, I have made her uncomfortable. She says that my little notes and letters I leave her once in awhile get her stressed out. She says it makes her feel even worse to hear how much I love her and care for her. Makes her feel bad about what she did, she should feel bad, but that's not my intention. I aim to make her feel safe here, let her know that with all thats happened, I'm still here for her and dedicated to our marriage. How does that translate to me stressing her out. She says she doesn't want me to leave them anymore. She says to talk to her if I want to say something. I told her the notes were a way for me to express my feelings without the pressure to respond. She's not taking it like that. Basically, she wants me to leave her alone. But she also wants me to be cheery and alive around the house. I'm not that bad, I have my moments but I'm not moping anymore. I guess I'll start from scratch again. What was the saying? Dumb=doing something that doesn't work, then doing it again to see if it works! Something like that. Anyway, I'll give you updates when they occur.

thanks again cat

Her 'real' self is inside her locked away, sending out little slivers of guilt, while the fog self is controlling her body and mouth. Just patronize her and keep doing what you're doing. Remind me, did you expose the affair?

ya cat

OMW blew the whole thing out in the open. Both are military and got into huge trouble. OM is still pending punishment. WW is "worried" about his well being. Our kids (14/16) know things are amiss but not aware of A.

It's a weird feeling I have, like all the positive stuff I thought I did for myself just disappeared. I need to refocus. Things are no different than yesterday or the day before. All this "worry" is in my head.

Step back and focus on what you DO have in life. You have your health, you have great kids, you have a career, a home, family, live in America (?), no one is dead. Death is the only finality. Anything else can be arranged. Even if you were to split up, even that's not permanent, and could change back once she sees what she lost. Or there could be someone even greater out there waiting for you. Not telling you to dump her, just to realize that this isn't the end of the world. Only death is.

Dino, welcome home! I'm sorry I haven't been around. Long story that has nothing to do with marriage or MB so I won't waste much space posting here -- just am having a major drama at work which I think I have finally figured out is due to the person at the center of said drama having borderline personality disorder. I hope you never meet someone w/ this because I seriously thought I was going insane for awhile as I couldn't figure out why this person was so angry at me and why I seemed to screw everything up in his eyes. But I'm over it. He can bite me. Well ok, maybe I'm still a little pissed ... LOL!

I'm so sorry this has been such a rough week for you too. It sounds like you are handling it pretty well ... not letting her knock you off your Plan A. It's going to take time for her to get her head back on straight. I do understand her when she says she can't change overnight. Her feelings for the OM can't just be turned off. The A started because he met needs for her that you hadn't been, maybe for years. I know you know this and I hope you know too that there's no point in beating yourself up about it. It is what it is. So when she's saying stuff that isn't what you want to hear, isn't encouraging, just remember that it is still a pretty fresh wound, it's going to take time for her to heal. If she was over it now, only a couple months later, I'd actually be a little worried that she might be some kind of sociopath ... I bet a big part of why you love her is that she is a caring person. Overall that is a big plus, but that's also why she's not going to be over it just like that.

I can't remember, did you get the Surviving an Affair book? I haven't read all the infidelity stuff on here, but here is something from Dr. Harley that seems pretty relevant:

"Over time, their resentment will fade, and a passionate desire to make love to their husbands will grow. Both husbands should be patient, and give their wives a chance to overcome the worst of their resentment, before expecting much from them sexually. But a woman in love is usually a great sex partner, and I doubt that either husband will be disappointed if they do their part in meeting their wives emotional needs. I predict that within a year from now, both of these wives will have almost completely recovered from their feelings of resentment." [From Coping With Infidelity: Resentment]

Keep the dialog going ... if she says talk to her, then talk to her! Maybe she wants to be able to respond. Intimacy happens when you share with each other ... 2 way communication.

Anyway, hope you are able to get a better night's sleep tonight. Take good care Dino!

How are things Dino?

Snuggle, so good to hear from you

Things are what they are. I'm doing my best to be patient, deal with the hurt still, support her, take care of the kids, cope with work.

I try to have dialog with her, she's still not ready. If I start any relationship talk it's like pushing the play button on an oral history of all the bad things I've done in our marriage. She keeps saying that she doesn't mean to throw these things in my face everytime but does it everytime. She hasn't progressed any I don't think. She's finally been able to say that she's never gotten over the things I've done in the past. I actually believe she's dredged it all up to justify her actions and feelings today. I'm still doing my plan. Still having a rough time keeping expectations out of my head. Still having a hard time dealing with the indifference she has towards me. Nothing much else to say about that

"husbands should be patient, and give their wives a chance to overcome the worst of their resentment, before expecting much from them sexually. But a woman in love is usually a great sex partner, and I doubt that either husband will be disappointed if they do their part in meeting their wives emotional needs"

I appreciate you sending me these words of encouragement but I'm not even close to thinking about sexual expectations. Snug, I'd be happy if she could give me a genuine hug. I'd be happy if she actually initiated a peck on the lips or looked me in the eyes and said that she loved me. I'd be happy if she called me during the day to say hi or ask how I was doing. She calls once in awhile but it's usually to vent about something with work. I'd be happy if she sounded happy when I called her. I'd be happy if she asked me to come to bed with her. I'd be happy if she held my hand when we walked or even tried to walk next to me. I'd be happy if she didn't do anything but tell me she wanted our marriage to work and that she was trying to make that happen. I'd be happy if she sat next to me watching TV and leaned on my shoulder. I'd be happy if she didn't close the door so I couldn't see her changing.

I'm a stranger in my own house Snuggle. Like a guy she allows to stay with her as a roommate. I'm someone she "puts up with" for now. I may very well be exaggerating but it's sure what I feel like.

I asked her about the night before I left for the states. I asked why she cried on me, why she said she missed me, why she said all those things. She said that was how she felt at the moment. She said she was scared of having to face her legal punishment without me there (her punishment wasn't near as severe as it could've been so we're happy about that). She had said that maybe once she wasn't worried about her punishment she could maybe move ahead and begin to heal some things. I foolishly put some hope into that and have been disappointed once again. Another foolish expectation. If anything, it seems that a burden has been lifted from her and now she can continue to treat me badly since she doesn't need me to lean on anymore. She also told me that while I was gone, she felt no stress, that she was under no pressure. She said that I stressing her out just being home. I do nothing, I say nothing, how do I cause stress? Can the mere sight of me cause so much trouble? How does someone who loved you a year ago now look at you with so much disdain?

She talks about things in the future as if we'll be together. Can a person really plan to be with someone but have no feelings for them? Is she just placating me? She said she made the mistake of staying with me these last few years for the childrens sake, for the family. She says she doesn't want to do that anymore, but why does she continue to talk as if we'll be together but at the same time show no interest in making things any better? I'm so confused.

Things are just things, nothing, no where, no change. I'm hanging in there, trying to put on the smiley face. My kids are doing ok, I talked to them about hearing us talk loudly. Told them their not part of our arguing, told them mom and I have troubles and were working on them. I like to set milestones, maybe not a healthy practice but it's a way of breaking down the time into manageable segments. We're going to Germany for my daughters softball tournament next weekend, hoping that some family time will make an impression, trying not to expect but it's hard. We going to Hawaii in August for her brothers wedding, both sides of the family wil be there, I'm hoping that will have some effect. We leave here in November and that's another milestone I'm looking forward to. She always tells me things like "maybe I'll be better after this, maybe I'll be better after that" She says that finally retiring and gettin away from her job will help, getting out of England may help. But why doesn't she do things to try to make things better instead of waiting around for "something" to make it better? I really think that's part of our reason for getting tho this point!

Anyway, sorry for the novel. Thanks again for not forgetting about me. I'm hanging in there. Not much else for me to do.

take care

LOL, of course she says that; you are the one person to whom she feels guilty. Don't let her lay that on you; that's HER problem.

Does her family know about the A? If not, are you going to tell them?

What have you done to follow Plan A? What have you changed on your end? For you?

cat, what I love about you is your brutal honesty and I wouldn't ask for anything else.

I do understand why she says the things she says. I truly believe she's still in withdrawal, she's even told me that she can't turn off those feelings overnight. But when she says them, they sting is no less.

As far as family goes, none of our family knows anything about my or her A. Actually, she did tell me that she told both our sisters about mine years ago but I don't think she's told anyone about hers. We said that we'd keep it to ourselves for now. If I thought that she was still in the A I would definitely expose but right now it's just us. The OM is in another time zone and we're getting ready to moveback to the states. Other than causing more grief, I just can't see the benefit of exposing to her family, or mine for that matter.

As for plan A, I've changed my total outlook on our life in general. After finding MB, I learned about my LBing ways and how my taker had ruled my part of the marriage. I've learned that the ways I thought I was "manipulating" her into my way of thinking were actually driving her further and further away. I canhonectly say cat, that I haven't dealt out a LB or DJ in the last 4 months. I have kept a cool head through all of this and have made great strides in her seeing that I refuse to resort to yelling at or disrespecting her in any way. I've come to realize that none of those things will ever get us anywhere. I've done my best to show her that I love her unconditionally even through this A. I believe that part of my willingness to accept the A as history is because of my past sin but it isn't easy either way. I have decided in myself that she is more important and that pedestal I had her on was much too high. She is human afterall, she can make mistakes as I know too well. Cat, the only demand I ever placed on her is the NC thing. I think we have that behind us but again, I can only have faith in her, i can only hope that she wouldn't risk an even greater punishment from the military and the possibility that our kids would find out because of it. I don't know, i can only hope. I've been here for her through the punishment without fail, i wrote character letters for her to the judge and stood by her and talked to her boss a professed my unwaivering support. I've taken up all the slack in the house due to her stress and workload (she works up to 16 hours a day and weekends most times) I bring food to her at work, I take care of most of the house work and still manage my college work and workout when I can. She tells me thank you all the time but thats about as far as she goes. She even tells me that I'm wonderful and that people would think she was crazy but she says she just can't get past things right now. I haven't changed because I'm trying to get her back, I've been doing most of it anyway since she was gone for 8 months. I have changed my outlook on the marriage though. I realize how terrible I really was about treating her and not coming close to fulfilling her ENs. I know that it's not fog talking when it come to that. That is something I have to forgive myself for. I don't pretend that her A is my fault, i do blame her for not stressing the importance of things, for not handling things a different way, but it's all past now. I want to start again, i believe she wants to but can't for some reason. I don't fear continuatino of the A, it's logistically impossible. Could they be in contact somehow? maybe,at great risk to them and our families. Time will heal us both but I want to keep the opportunity for us to remain intact. I don't want to do anything rash that would jeopardize that. Will there come a time that extreme measures need to be taken? Could be, but I think I'll recognize that time.

And as for me, I have some work to do on myself. I feel depressed alot. I've been seeing a doctor about it but haven't been prescribed medicine, she's says I'm dealing pretty well. I've been going to IC on my own. I've been doing better to keep a positive demeanor at home but am not always successful, she let's me know that. I realize that the hurt is on both sides. She deals with her pain alot better than I do. I could never handle the pressures she's under right now. I've asked her to talk to anyone but she refuses, even for health reasons. She is losing weight and is having nerve problems. I have been doing alot better though. I work out and have my school work. I think I've been showing her my best, i just think she's afraid. Afraid that things won't change, afraid that if she gives me another chance, I'll go back to my old ways and she'll get hurt again.

How can I get her to see me? How does someone open up again? I have so much to make up for cat, i want to start now!