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_MAZ_ Offline OP
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I'm going to ask for some advice on an issue related to a thread I posted some time ago... The link is here:

Boundary Thread

I've been doing a lot better about my reactions to disagreements or conflicts. The issue I'm having now is my DH not wanting to discuss these things or listen to what I have to say about it.

Usually the issue is related to something he did or said that to me was rude, inappropriate, disrespectful, mean, etc.

My DH seems to have the type of personality subject to mood swings. Some days he is wonderful, thoughtful, considerate, etc. and then out of the blue, he can behave rudely and make snide, insulting comments (again of course, that's how I see them).

I'm getting better at rooting out which incidents are worth making a big deal over and which are not. For example, a couple of nights ago we were at our dd's soccer game and I was sitting with him on one side and another mom on the other. I was having a lot of fun talking to this mom and ooohing and ahhing over her new baby. My DH kept interrupting my conversation with her to tell me something. He would look at me and make comments as if he was irritated that I was not paying 100% attention to him. I tried to ask him about it but he would say "no, nothing's wrong" but in a tone of voice that clearly indicated annoyance. Normally, he is very outgoing himself and encourages me to have my own friends, so it is confusing.

The old me would have had to drag that one out and ask him why he behaved that way and couldn't he see that it was rude and that I was embarassed by it.

But I let it go.

The thing is about these types of things, once he is in that mood it is not a one time occurrence, he tends to be in a cycle for a while.

There were some other similar incidents since then, but minor, so I dismissed them. He has done the "wave off" and told me to take a pill a few times.

Last night another incident occurred. I was making lunches for the kids and him for today and he was watching me and following me around the kitchen making comments about things I should do etc...He has a tendency to oversee what I am doing and it frankly gets on my nerves. He will ask me why am I cooking something this way, why don't I do it that way, I should put this in there, etc.

I feel bossed around. So after a couple of comments in the kitchen I asked him if I could have some space. He was annoyed and said he can be anywhere he wants in the house *he* pays for.

Well now, I ain't feelin' so loving towards him. I wanted to explain how I was feeling...that I understood how he felt but that I just need a little space now and then, like he does when he goes into his office and doesn't want to be disturbed and that I was sorry I hurt his feelings, but he walks away. Refuses to listen or talk. More comments fly around this morning about it, how I won't let it go.

I think a lot...lot...lot of his behaviors relate to FOO issues. I could accept that, if he would just talk to me.

I just want to be able to talk to my husband! ARGH! Probably my biggest need.

This is where I start to get resentful about what I am doing, and have been doing to try to improve myself and the marriage, while he isn't interested in any of it. He has made numerous comments about how wonderful I am, how lucky he is, what a great wife I am compared to what he hears from his friends about their wives, etc. But when I have a need, desire or feeling that he doesn't like, he's emotionally unavailable.

The old me would be thinking to myself..."see this is why you should have never gotten married...he can't even listen to you, blah, blah, blah." But yet, I am proud of myself because I am not going there! People have issues, we can resolve them. I am committed for the long haul.

I don't like feeling this way though and it's upsetting because it's unnecessary. I think we could've solved it in a couple of minutes if he would've been open to talking and we could right now be enjoying each other's company again.

I don't know if there really is any advice to be given or if I just needed to vent!

Mazzy


Me, 43, 2 online EA's 2006
DH, 45, 2DDs, 16 & 9
Married 23 years.
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Hey, Mazzers...

What happened to listen and repeat?

I ask because what I see your DH doing isn't close to what you see him doing.

What if he was feeling rejected, cast aside, in the way at the ball game?

What if he was feeling exactly the same way in the kitchen?

Doesn't change a single action...changes your assumptions, though, doesn't it?

In the kitchen..."I hear you as criticizing me, telling me I'm doing stuff wrong, that I'm incapable. Is that your intent or are you feeling left out, not focused on?"

Easy to say after this question..."Okay, thank you for answering. Would you leave me alone in the kitchen for 15 minutes while my emotions settle down?"

If you BELIEVE in defining him as having mood swings (aren't all emotions signals, temporary?)...then you're going to experience him that way...whether it's true or not. You already know this.

And if you aren't mindreading and picking up on his BUILDING anger from rejection (fear)...then who's mood is really swinging?

Seems to me you both had your voices for awhile...and all that's changed, really, is that RH isn't a minute-by-minute practice...sounds more like "Didn't we fix this already" and why are we back to this...

And you're not alone...could just be my perception...my experience in my own marriage right now...you know I can be really off-base.

I just know that we can ask for honesty...and still have to let the response go...

We MUST speak honestly...'cuz that's in our code.

I-statements.

When we dismiss, we feel dismissed. When we let go of our own response...we feel let go...disconnected.

Checking ourselves to see if we're doing our part isn't bashing, bad guys or stupid. It's our responsibility. Saying "ouch" is, also. Outloud.

A recap and an update...a two-for-one. Thanks for being back here.

LA

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_MAZ_ Offline OP
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LA,

I missed you!

I do get what you are saying...I did ask a few times at the game and later that night and only got the "no, nothing's wrong" with the tone of voice.

It's hard to listen and repeat if the other person isn't saying anything or listening to you.

The issue about being in the kitchen, when he started kind of giving instructions and I asked for some space and he got huffy, I did try to talk about it. I asked what was wrong and he was upset. I tried two other times to ask about it but he wasn't answering or listening.

It absolutely did occur to me both times that he may have felt left out and/or wasn't his intention to come across the way he did. But all I can do is assume, which of course is a no no...since he won't talk about it. Another part of it is that I do get embarassed when he acts like that in front of other people. Okay, so "assuming" he did feel left out, does that make it okay to interrupt me ump-teen times and act annoyed while I'm talking to someone. Isn't it still rude?

And to tell me to "take a pill already." Really.

I don't necessarily feel that "didn't we fix this, why are we back to this" really. These are the kinds of communication glitches we've always had. I'm not upset, thinking shouldn't this be fixed...I accept that this stuff will happen but I just want to figure out how to handle it better.

It's not catastrophic, I'm not calling a lawyer or sleeping in another room.

I just kinda would like to find a way to get him to open up when there's an issue rather than closing down.

The whole thing about mood swings....I don't know how to address that, there are plenty of times he would say things like "I saw you talking to XYZ, seemed like you were having a good time, it's nice to talk to some other moms once in a while, huh?" I consider that side of him the "real him" and then when he acts like (a child, my assumption, I get that) I consider that a mood swing, because it's usually not an isolated incident but more of a cycle. He'll usually be on edge like that for a few days and then back to normal.

Is there a normal?

When this happens, it seems to me to come out of the blue, to be uncharacteristic of his typical behavior and sometimes I'm pretty shocked to hear him talk that way.

I have done the "ouch" thing too. I'm not really sure what that is supposed to accomplish...I still get the same response and nothing changes. Yes, I've stated my stuff, period. So what then?

I have this deep desire, to be heard, to have my feelings understood, not even agreed with, but acknowledged. Probably FOO stuff for me too.

When I feel like I'm being dismissed ("take a pill") it really punches me.

I know that it makes me feel insignificant, like I did in my house growing up. My feelings didn't matter. Feelings were a no-no, especially "uncomfortable" ones.

So now I'm wondering, am I making a big deal of nothing. Should I just be grateful for what I have. Then another side of me says don't make excuses...

Blah.





Me, 43, 2 online EA's 2006
DH, 45, 2DDs, 16 & 9
Married 23 years.
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My comments to you and your husband would be that no you are not making a big deal out of nothing. You are dealing with a problem in your marriage and you continue to repeat the same cycle. It is important to stop this destructive cycle. The key is for someone to stop the cycle so the destructive pattern stops and leads to a new way to solve the problem. I sense it is similar to a problem that my wife and I had and how we used to deal with the problem.

My bet is that if your husband felt safe or comfortable or cared for enough to talk that he would likely say that you either say or do things that hurt him. Some kind of love buster. He then continues the pattern with another love buster back to you. You then feel hurt. You also sense his hurt and ask him what is wrong because of the way he responded to you. Since he hurt you back he senses your defensiveness and hears your what is wrong question as a disguised attempt at showing care for his feelings. It is likely more a means of getting him to open up and get back at him. He then decides to not engage and you feel very uncared for.

One of you needs to stop the cycle when it occurs. Not ignore the problem but not continue the same cycle of Love Busters. Recognize when the Love Busters are occurring and start to eliminate them. Really understanding what we say or do and how we make the other person feel. Putting the defensiveness and attacking aside as it is always unproductive and replacing it open efforts to solve the problem with care and understanding of each persons point of view. It is the pattern that causes the problem. Change the pattern and you will be on your way to solving the problem. It is hard but also rewarding. It builds great intimacy.

Hopefully this is of some value to the both of you.


ME BH 40 - FWW 39

Sons - 9 and 7

DDAY - March 18,2006

Married 10 years

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_MAZ_ Offline OP
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Thank you TJD for your comments.

I know we are both very guilty of LB'ing, especially when we think we are in the "right."

I do admit to having a tendency to be defensive. It is really hard to alter that behavior. I also tend to defend the kids when he is scolding or disciplining them if I feel it is unfair or he doesn't have the whole story. Eeek, I know, I am trying to work on that.

I definitely would like to alter this pattern but am not quite sure how to do it. I thought I was handled it pretty well by asking what was wrong, and I was totally sincere. I have always been a sensitive person, both myself and to other people's feelings. He acknowledges this as something he loves about me. I am probably over-sensitive in ways and I've noticed that I do tend to soak up feelings of other people.

As an aside, I've read a book about this...The Highly Sensitive Person...and I found it to be a real eye opener. It kind of helped take the stigma or negative connotation off of being a "sensitive" person. One thing it mentioned was that sensitive people need some alone time to recharge. I've always been like this and a lot of times I would attribute it to not wanting to be with my DH, but I realized, it wouldn't have mattered who I was with, I just need some alone time to regroup. Doesn't mean I don't love my husband or don't want to be married.

I have told my DH that he is safe to share anything with me and when he does I always tell him how much it means to me and how much I appreciate it, but it is still hard for him. I don't know if I am inadvertently doing something or if it is just very hard for him, but he does not share easily.

I get frustrated because, again, I feel like if he just told me what was bothering him, I would've addressed it and there would've been no lingering problem.

For example, I asked again last night what was going on at the game. He told me that he thought I was ignoring his parents (they were there). That hadn't even occurred to me and if he had told me I would've made a point to strike up some conversation with them there (even though I disagree with that assessment, I would've made an effort for DH's sake). We have a lot of history (long story I won't go into) with his parents and they are not my most favorite people all the time. Even though he wants approval/respect from them, especially his dad, he doesn't really get it...but he is still very concerned with what they think and I respect him for that. I sometimes am jealous actually and wish he would care as much about how I think I'm being treated, but that is also another story.

I will say that I am proud of how my DH established boundaries with them when they moved here, as in, not walking into the house uninvited, and others.

So, if he hears my question as a disguised attempt to get back at him, how should I handle that? What can I do to make him feel safe to open up?


Me, 43, 2 online EA's 2006
DH, 45, 2DDs, 16 & 9
Married 23 years.
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 8,970
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What if asking "What's wrong?" is a lie, an LB?

When you feel, is it wrong?

The question itself has a built-in honest answer..."Nothing is wrong." We're answering the actual question. Check the question.

At the ballpark...saying, "I'm thinking you feel cut off from me right now" isn't asking "What's wrong"...it's you being honest with yourself and others...identifying what's within your "what's wrong" question...owning your perception, your intuition...sharing your thoughts with ownership.

Opens for dialogue...rather than says, "Look inside you and YOU find out what's wrong with you right now"...

I don't ask that question anymore...and yes, it still falls out of my mouth in stressful moments...and then I have to retract it quickly.

And I'm working on NOT answering that question when it's asked of me. "I don't understand the question."

Permissions..."You think something is wrong with me right now?" Not a great answer...still holds to listen and repeat...shares the half of the whole...doesn't take on the whole (I'm wrong, my facial expression is wrong, posture, whatever).

It's hard to listen and repeat when you have conditions for yourself when you permit yourself to NOT do it. If you're doing it to get a response, don't. If you're doing it because you hold yourself to owning your half, your goal is clarity in communication, and you are putting your commitment first before anything else...well, you know the answer.

You do it. Maz, you do difficult stuff every day...may no longer feel difficult because you consistently do it--you've retrained your brain. Listen and repeat is a tool...exercise it to build your brain muscle into a respectful habit. Eliminate those permissions to make it conditional...based on others' stuff, the result, their response or non-response.

Your H will speak...I know, that seems like a wild dream...he is able, may choose...to share his stuff or not. Your job is to be aware of how much you cut out because it's not what you expect to hear (what's wrong), want to hear, or the way you want to hear it. That remains a problem for me...I'm just passing on the possibility.

I'm thinking of the ballpark...after H interrupts, you say, "I'm having a blast right now...I love talking with <blank>, feeling you next to me, being here together." What would you expect to hear as a response (not from pattern, from your own desired response)?

In kitchen, "I hear what you're saying as giving me instructions on how you'd like me to do what I'm doing. Are you instructing me?"

Asking repeatedly doesn't show more care...does show more desire for control.

H will speak...repeat after me...you acknowledge you are perceiving his upset, are not assuming what he's feeling, and you trust he'll tell you when he's ready. Respect for his ability, his choices...soothes your own. Breaks the parental pattern of soothing each other, not ruffling each other...not being the cause, control and cure for one another.

Reinforces you are both capable, whole and present for one another...top priority.

Listen and repeats shares YOUR filter with him..."I hear you as huffy right now...which I see as attacking me, wanting to hurt me back for something." Calm sharing. It's great information to share...for you, him and your partnership.

After ballpark, did you share, "I react to what I see as your huffiness with embarrassment...my mind suddenly puts what other people might or might not be thinking ahead of what you are really communicating and feeling."

Your choice to assume kicks your marital butt...harms the partnership and lies to yourself. Hurts your own self...and when you justify it based on what your partner does or does not do...then you're living a justified life...one of those wayward components I strive to stay aware and away from.

What do you do when your children interrupt you umpteen times? Do you have progressive boundary enforcements? Would healthy partnering have those, as well? Bet you can tell I was a big interrupter...an unconscious one...because I hid what I was really asking behind something else...like trying to psychically get my DH to stop/start something without others catching on. Like asking "What's wrong" eh?

If you have consideration in your code...then progressive, predetermined boundary enforcements might have looked like this on H's first interruption. "Good to know your thoughts, H. It's hard for me to listen to you, though, when you interrupt."

Second one, "I hear you interrupting again. I would like to switch places with you to speak with <blank> more directly, is that okay?"

Not verbatim...as ideas...power...your power. "I know you know that I feel irritated when I'm interrupted."

"Does talking across you to someone feel rude to you?"

Maz, you have better verbal skills than I do...I believe you could word this much better to stay true to yourself.

Focus on you closing down and you opening up...that's in your control. He's able. His choice. Do you really believe you were communicating to the best of your ability in this instances? Do you believe without a doubt that what you said was clearly expressed, without assumption?

I totally get this is not catastrophic...is it cumulative? Are you getting from the big issues down the tiny events...the ones maybe you skirted before because of its size?

You seem so focused on getting the response you want, making your actions and words based on trying to not get a certain response...you're dwelling where you have no control, abandoning yourself and changing who you are to get him to not act or to act as you want him to be.

That's what I hear...you want to control his mood, words, feelings, response and beliefs...so you can feel safe, loved, respected and honored. Little stuff that affects each of those areas...not wiping out the whole love bank...steadily leaking with tiny gouges...and out of the blue is a phrase to highlight to you your own expectations...from your belief of how he regularly behaves...doesn't say what he really does or doesn't.

He may zing you more often...and you won't notice each one because of your stuff, not his actions. Your perception is valid...doesn't make it his pattern, his reality.

What if the ballpark and the kitchen was another signal to you, your deep desire to be heard...because you are not hearing your H. You're really not...and you're experiencing it as if you are...you are discounting his statements...hearing them as attacks, instruction, you doing it wrong...because you're asking him what's wrong with him? Like TJD said...part of the relationship pattern...which you broke for big stuff...now the little stuff, same patterns, more easily seen.

Progress...closer...deeper intimacy...getting there.

"When you say "take a pill" I feel punched in my gut. What phrase do I say to you that gives you that feeling?"

Might be, "What's wrong?"...stated from love, heard like "you're wrong"...a punch to the gut. Expects judgement and doing wrong...being wrong. Both of you reaching for the other to change the pain--comfort, soothe...at the same time feeling controlled, degraded, ignored, blamed.

Normal...not healthy. Get your focus off him...and onto your power, what you control...holding yourself to your code...then the "take a pill" can be heard as, "I wish I was better at this...I fear your anger, sadness, disappointment and pain. I feel punched in my gut when I hear you're feeling one of these...and I desperately wish there was a magic pill for us to take because I love you."

Not dismissing at all...communicating crudely...using short-cuts...like "what's wrong"...loving in short-hand has a lot of punches in it...because of assumptions...and we do it to ourselves.

Not making a big deal out of nothing...it's not all or nothing (that's your child, isn't it?)...it's something that is a valid concern...because it's yours...and you already nailed you're triggering to repeated stuff from childhood. Working it through with your partner...and it may not look like you're working it through with him...you are.

Together.

Half and half. Even when it doesn't feel like it. Remains so. You can't be more than half or less in your marriage.

You're not alone. I do this, also. I fall into focusing on DH, losing my center, into my old FOO patterns, too...over and over again...feels frustrating, irritating, hopeless and painful. Easy to see those as coming from DH, not in me, not my patterns, with my flavor of self-deception in it...helps me to relearn again, anew, what I already knew before...through practice.

I often learn how big my power is anew by how much I can hurt myself with justifications from assumptions which didn't own a thing...and see it as DH doing it, instead.

You matter, your feelings matter...and they come from you, for you, about you directly from your beliefs.

Maybe we use blame when we mean to use boundaries?

LA

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Originally Posted by _MAZ_
So, if he hears my question as a disguised attempt to get back at him, how should I handle that? What can I do to make him feel safe to open up?

MAZ,

That is a tough question. I don't have any answers. I do have some ideas that I can share as I relate it to my experience. You will have to sort through this for what makes sense for you.

I would say one thing that was important for my wife and I was that we were both very committed and willing to eliminate Love Busters. Now, it is one thing to say you are committed but another to have the true committment and willingness to not hurt the other.

That was our goal and that simple goal showed alot of care and understanding(on both our parts) that our patterns in life were HABITS. That in order to change our habits we needed to have the PATIENCE and UNDERSTANDING to take the time necessary to RECOGNIZE the patterns and to better understand WHY the patterns were occurring.

The best time to understand why the patterns are occurring is to better link cause and effect. What I mean is that if I touch a hot stove I get FEEDBACK relatively quickly that it is hot and I learn to not do it again. Feedback is one part, the other is time. The closer in TIME the feedback occurs to when the pattern occurs the more beneficial to both. If the feedback occurs a year from now it is not nearly as effective as feedback occurring tomorrow.

To get started, we each gave something to the other. My wife's complaint was that I withdraw. I can be great to be around and then something happens and I withdraw from her and then a day, 2, 3 days later I engage again. This withdrawal hurts her tremendously and is a pattern that she had become used to and expected. My complaint was that my wife said or did things that hurt me. I'd try to explain to her but she would become defensive and I would then withdraw as my strategy to get away from the pain.

I agreed to engage her and she agreed to not be defensive and to become aware that she was hurting me.

This like anything else took some practice and we continue to get better at this to this day.

As an example, my wife would say or do things to hurt me. I would withdraw. Our habits. She would in fact ask me the question what is wrong? I would tell her that she hurt me. She, being hurt by my withdrawal and being defensive would use the opportunity to let her frustrations out. Me being hurt by her couldn't understand how she could use be asking me to hear her when she is the one who asked me what is wrong. To me, over time, the question what is wrong was really about my wife's feelings and not mine. I would withdraw more.

Now, I had agreed to engage my wife and not withdraw. Since I was committed I tried my best to not withdraw. My first complaint was I can only deal with this so long. I can engage her and stay in the game a good amount of time knowing that these are habits but what if she keeps hurting me and I can't take it anymore. We came close a number of times, but, it one feels a real sense of care, effort, and openness from there partner when there partner recognizes that they are hurting you and then make efforts to not do it anymore. In the past what would have been defensiveness and justification now becomes understanding and effort to change.

At first the other caught us in LB's and would communicate them. It was hard not being defensive. It was hard communicating how the LB made us FEEL and not controlling what the other did to us(stop it, don't do it anymore, thats a LB). Over time we became amazed at how often we never provided feedback. We'd think it but not communicate it. So, things never got resolved. We never learned. That's why my wife would always be surprised when I withdrew. She never received any specific feedback other than me withdrawing. Once we provided feedback and we understood we had the opportunity to show care for the other.

MAZ, you state that both you and your H are guilty of Love Buster's. Eliminate them. I read some of your posts from your other threads. Fights, arguing, its no good and I think you feel that. You both should be committed to eliminating them. Your husband should have this same concern for you as well.

When you discussed the game with your husband he did communicate to you and shared with you his concerns and that it was important to him. He didn't give feedback right away but you did get it. Now, I hear one of two things regarding your comments. If I were your husband I would be concerned that you are discounting his concern as on one hand you state that it hadn't occurred to you but on the other you also state that you don't agree with that assessment. His assessment is correct for him based on the information he has. If you have additional information that could sway him you need to provide that feedback back to your husband. I'm sure he would take it into consideration and you would be likely be able to appreciate how he came to his conclusion if he in return shared more information with you.

In regards to the kids. It feels like you have different information than your husband has. My wife and I want to work together and raise the kids. When you defend the kids and if you do it in front of them you take away his power as a father. He may very well feel you are telling him that you are right and he is wrong. At the same time, if my wife has different information than I do I want that information from her so we can do a better job raising our kids. You are likely right, with the information you have. If he had the same information, was open to it, and you shared it and were working together instead of against each other it would not feel judgmental. You will also begin to resolve issues.

This is a very long post for me. I'm not sure if the ideas in it will help. I hope it helps in some small way.





ME BH 40 - FWW 39

Sons - 9 and 7

DDAY - March 18,2006

Married 10 years

Recovering
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 672
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_MAZ_ Offline OP
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It sounds like a lot of what you're doing is reconditioning, behavior modification. You have a made a lot of progress at relearning new habits and that is certainly something to be proud of.

I pretty much agree with everything you said. The main problem is that he is not on board with the MB system, is not interested in "getting with the program" so to speak. In my ideal world, he would read the books and discuss the concepts and tell me he cares about my feelings and let's come up with a plan...

Ok, then I wake up...LOL!

Seriously though, you are right, I did get feedback but it was in his timeframe and not mine. It is difficult because in my mind I am thinking, if you just tell me what's wrong at the time it happens, we could fix it and it be over with. I am trying to be more patient about that.

About arguing...that would be the biggest problem (in my opinion) that we have always had. That would be the single factor that leads me to disconnect and become dissatisfied with my marriage. There have been times in the past where some of the behavior he has displayed, I would characterize as outright verbal/emotional abuse (tearing up a purse or cancelling my cell) for example, but nothing like that has occurred in a long time. I like to think that we have that under control and that he recognizes that as wrong and is sorry for that behavior. I like to think so, he hasn't outright said it, but in some ways he alludes to it. I think I have enforced my boundaries on that type of behavior and it has made a difference. As for our typical arguing, we are certainly both at fault for our bad reactions. My DH however feels that there is not a problem and arguing is normal. We had very different FOO issues regarding this, his parents fought openly, loudly and often (using name calling, put downs and sarcasm, sometimes very nasty) while mine very rarely did, so we have quite different experiences on the matter.

There are a few things that I have learned though. I have accepted that arguing does not mean there is a lack of love, and disagreements are a normal part of a close relationship. My concern now is lowering the thermostat on them, so we can walk away from a disagreement still feeling loving towards each other. This is another thing I have learned from Cloud and Townsend. I want us to approach the "issue" as a team trying to solve a problem we both have instead of adversaries.

In your response to my comment that I didn't agree with DH's assessment that I was purposely ignoring his parents. I do not agree with that, however, I DO SEE how it would appear that way to him. I do validate his feelings on the matter and frankly whether I agree or not is irrelevant. I would've made an effort to engage with them, simply because I accept that it is very important to him. And for me, that is a big step I tell ya!

With regards to the kids, sometimes my information makes a difference sometimes not. There are lots of times where again, the situation could've been avoided if he would've asked me about something ahead of time. My desire would be that we talk with each other before disciplining. When we do that, we oftentimes come to an agreement. We do have very similar viewpoints regarding how we feel is the right way to raise children, etc. Usually an issue arises when he scolds them for doing or not doing something and then I start to "defend" by saying I told them to do something else and they didn't have time, etc. and he gets defensive about that, he may say something like, "why can't you just let me be a father?" and I understand where he's coming from. I'm not sure how to handle that though. My feeling now is that maybe I should let it go, but sometimes I feel like it isn't fair to the kids, they listened to me and got in trouble...not big trouble, but you get what I mean.

I appreciate your posts, short or long. Sharing your experience helps me and certainly anyone else who may happen upon this thread. You just never know how it might help someone.

Thanks!

Mazzy



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Maz, you're welcome to disagree, but from where I sit, your posts are full of DJs. Not that you're not entitled to DJ here if you feel like getting it off your chest, BUT...what good is it doing your marriage? Likely, nothing!

I think you said something about humility, and if I may, that is the key here. Sure, you want to win the fights; you want to prove that you know what you're talking about; you want your H to see your side. But sometimes you just have to go about these things differently. I didn't WANT to like my husband, to do nice things for him, to listen to him and understand him. BUT if you want a marriage you can live with...sometimes you have to bite the bullet and do the hard work only on YOUR side, to wait and see if it comes through on HIS side.

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I know we are both very guilty of LB'ing, especially when we think we are in the "right."

I do admit to having a tendency to be defensive. It is really hard to alter that behavior. I also tend to defend the kids when he is scolding or disciplining them if I feel it is unfair or he doesn't have the whole story. Eeek, I know, I am trying to work on that.

I definitely would like to alter this pattern but am not quite sure how to do it. I thought I was handled it pretty well by asking what was wrong, and I was totally sincere. I have always been a sensitive person, both myself and to other people's feelings. He acknowledges this as something he loves about me. I am probably over-sensitive in ways and I've noticed that I do tend to soak up feelings of other people.
Asking what was wrong is a big trigger, especially in the minds of men. I'd advise that you spend some reading time learning how men think. It's vastly different from how WE think. So you can keep trying to relate to him on your terms, or you can step back and figure out what HE is thinking, and approach him from that perspective. It might get you somewhere.

Disciplining the kids, telling him that he is doing it 'incorrectly' by defending the kids? What's up with that? Why is your definition of appropriate kid-raising right, and his is wrong?

Do you see how you're approaching your R as something that HE needs to fix? There is where the need for humility should come in, IMO. Not saying you're wrong, he's right. Just that if you were to rethink your relationship, you might find some opportunities for negotiation, rather than 'winning.' Where everyone wins.

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Originally Posted by _MAZ_
The main problem is that he is not on board with the MB system, is not interested in "getting with the program" so to speak. !

MAZ,

What is your husband on board with? Is he on board with having a great marriage?

Originally Posted by _MAZ_
Seriously though, you are right, I did get feedback but it was in his timeframe and not mine.

Feedback is critical. There should be consideration for BOTH of your feelings. Not a struggle between you and he but what is good for both.

Also, recognizing that we have habits is very big. He's acting via habits. Your acting via habits. These habits that are automatic in our day to day lives are not considerate of each others feelings. Developing new habits that considers each persons feelings is very important.

Originally Posted by _MAZ_
About arguing...that would be the biggest problem (in my opinion) that we have always had. That would be the single factor that leads me to disconnect and become dissatisfied with my marriage. There have been times in the past where some of the behavior he has displayed, I would characterize as outright verbal/emotional abuse (tearing up a purse or cancelling my cell) for example, but nothing like that has occurred in a long time. I like to think that we have that under control and that he recognizes that as wrong and is sorry for that behavior. I like to think so, he hasn't outright said it, but in some ways he alludes to it. I think I have enforced my boundaries on that type of behavior and it has made a difference. As for our typical arguing, we are certainly both at fault for our bad reactions. My DH however feels that there is not a problem and arguing is normal. We had very different FOO issues regarding this, his parents fought openly, loudly and often (using name calling, put downs and sarcasm, sometimes very nasty) while mine very rarely did, so we have quite different experiences on the matter.

You have communicated that this is a big problem. Sounds like you have made some progress as well. It sounds like, at least from your point of view, it is still a big problem even with the improvement. My experience is very similar to you here. It makes me withdraw as well.

The TAKER is in control. It becomes irrational and you get nowhere. So, why not stop and state I will not engage in this as it makes me miserable. When we have calmed down lets discuss again.

It very well may be ok for your husband, from his point of view. But, a good marriage needs to consider both. It also appears that your husband learned to use LB's well from his parents.

Is he on board to have a great marriage? What would HE say?

Originally Posted by _MAZ_
There are a few things that I have learned though. I have accepted that arguing does not mean there is a lack of love, and disagreements are a normal part of a close relationship. My concern now is lowering the thermostat on them, so we can walk away from a disagreement still feeling loving towards each other. This is another thing I have learned from Cloud and Townsend. I want us to approach the "issue" as a team trying to solve a problem we both have instead of adversaries.

I agree that we can disagree. However, I believe it can and should be done in a respectful, caring, loving way. Arguing makes me feel horrible. It is destructive and I want to eliminate it. For me, after having gone through the pain from my W's A, I did not want to deal with the arguing anymore. It took some time, but, when we agreed to eliminate LB's and she heard how I felt and vice versa we have made consistent progress.

Originally Posted by _MAZ_
With regards to the kids, sometimes my information makes a difference sometimes not. There are lots of times where again, the situation could've been avoided if he would've asked me about something ahead of time. My desire would be that we talk with each other before disciplining. When we do that, we oftentimes come to an agreement. We do have very similar viewpoints regarding how we feel is the right way to raise children, etc. Usually an issue arises when he scolds them for doing or not doing something and then I start to "defend" by saying I told them to do something else and they didn't have time, etc. and he gets defensive about that, he may say something like, "why can't you just let me be a father?" and I understand where he's coming from. I'm not sure how to handle that though. My feeling now is that maybe I should let it go, but sometimes I feel like it isn't fair to the kids, they listened to me and got in trouble...not big trouble, but you get what I mean.

You have very important information when it comes to dealing with the kids and it sounds like your husband generally agrees with that. When you state that the situation could have been avoided if he had come to you ahead of time is probably the best solution and the solution you should probably work towards if he is in agreement. But, not the only solution and it will be a process to change the habits to get to the best solution. If you can agree on the best solution and recognize the current habits and then communicate without LB'ing you will reach the best solution.

My wife and I both significantly discounted what the other would do for us. I would always tell me wife you don't realize how much I am willing to do for you and she would say the same to me. The limiting factor wasn't my intentions or her intentions or what we wanted out of a marriage. It was our LB'ing habits that started our patterns and brought out our TAKERS and it continued and reinforced the LB'ing habits.


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Originally Posted by catperson
Maz, you're welcome to disagree, but from where I sit, your posts are full of DJs. Not that you're not entitled to DJ here if you feel like getting it off your chest, BUT...what good is it doing your marriage? Likely, nothing!

Could you please point to where I am doing this. I freely admit that I am guilty of as much of our dysfunction as he is. I do see this forum as a place to express all of my thoughts and feelings...that does not mean that I think I those thoughts/feelings are right. Sometimes just saying it out loud (well, typing it) clarifies things for me.

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sometimes you have to bite the bullet and do the hard work only on YOUR side, to wait and see if it comes through on HIS side.

I am aware that I can only change me. That doesn't mean that sometimes I don't feel resentful of how much effort I put into our marriage vs. how much DH does, and I'm glad that I have a place to share that. I do still understand that the only thing I have control over is me.

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Asking what was wrong is a big trigger, especially in the minds of men. I'd advise that you spend some reading time learning how men think. It's vastly different from how WE think. So you can keep trying to relate to him on your terms, or you can step back and figure out what HE is thinking, and approach him from that perspective. It might get you somewhere.

I am aware of the differences in how we think. If I've read one book, I've read a hundred in the past 20+ years. I think that what you say is great but over simplifies my situation. It would probably require reading all of my threads or an extremely lengthy post here to get the full picture and I think I will spare everyone here from that!

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Disciplining the kids, telling him that he is doing it 'incorrectly' by defending the kids? What's up with that? Why is your definition of appropriate kid-raising right, and his is wrong?

Oh no, not at all. I think maybe there is a misunderstanding here. I do not tell him his way is wrong. Here is an example of what I was referring to:

DH: have you done your homework yet?
DD: no, haven't had a chance
DH: why isn't your homework done? it should be done by now, you need to get your act together and get your stuff done....etc.
DD: *says NOTHING*
MAZ: Dad, she had "such and such" after school today and we just got home so that's why she hasn't done it yet
DH: Can you let me talk to my daughter? Just let me be a father? Can I talk to her without you butting in?
MAZ: I was just explaining why...

It doesn't always go this way, sometimes DH will say "Oh, okay, I didn't know that, okay, get on it right away"...sometimes it's more extreme, sometimes less, but that's the basic jist of it.

Mr. Maz is a great dad! The girls are very lucky to have him.

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Do you see how you're approaching your R as something that HE needs to fix? There is where the need for humility should come in, IMO. Not saying you're wrong, he's right. Just that if you were to rethink your relationship, you might find some opportunities for negotiation, rather than 'winning.' Where everyone wins.

Catperson, I do wholeheartedly believe this...the issue at hand though is DH's unwillingness to negotiate.

BTW, I love your screenname! You have a fondness for felines? I love meows and purrs myself.

MAZ


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TJD,

DH would say he is on board with having a great marriage, but doing things like reading books, discussing issues are a no-go.

I definitely see how the habit thing plays into it. We were soooo young when we met, we didn't have a clue how to have a mature relationship. We fell into ways of acting and reacting that were downright dysfunctional and immature at times and after so many years of that, we didn't know any different. That is the cycle I want to break.

I have seen changes in the past 2 years. We have both changed, so I know it's possible to retrain ourselves. Yes, TJD, even with the improvement it is still a problem though.

DH obviously learned AO's etc. from his parents. He has awful memories of some events...yet he does or has done the same thing. I failed to learn any kind of communicating or relationship skills from my parents whatsoever. They were pretty much simply co-existing in the same house. So put my DH and I together and it's obviously a recipe for difficulty.

I do truly believe though that we can heal some of those things from our childhood through our relationship. I believe some things we have already healed.

I think your comments regarding the kids is pretty accurate. I also can relate to what you say about discounting. We have both been guilty of that as well....the Taker tends to want it all.

Thank you for your input, you have been a great help.

MAZ


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Originally Posted by LovingAnyway
At the ballpark...saying, "I'm thinking you feel cut off from me right now" isn't asking "What's wrong"...it's you being honest with yourself and others...identifying what's within your "what's wrong" question...owning your perception, your intuition...sharing your thoughts with ownership.

This is great, I think this is part of what catperson was trying to relay when she said that the "what's wrong" question is a trigger for me.

Ok, now I get it. It still needs to be "I feel..."

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It's hard to listen and repeat when you have conditions for yourself when you permit yourself to NOT do it. If you're doing it to get a response, don't. If you're doing it because you hold yourself to owning your half, your goal is clarity in communication, and you are putting your commitment first before anything else...well, you know the answer.

Yes I do. Guess I haven't "re-trained" enough there yet...

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Your H will speak...I know, that seems like a wild dream...he is able, may choose...to share his stuff or not. Your job is to be aware of how much you cut out because it's not what you expect to hear (what's wrong), want to hear, or the way you want to hear it. That remains a problem for me...I'm just passing on the possibility.

Certainly could be...thank you for mentioning that...I will be more alert to that.

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I'm thinking of the ballpark...after H interrupts, you say, "I'm having a blast right now...I love talking with <blank>, feeling you next to me, being here together." What would you expect to hear as a response (not from pattern, from your own desired response)?

Are you asking what I would like to hear in response to that? I'm not sure I'm getting your question.

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In kitchen, "I hear what you're saying as giving me instructions on how you'd like me to do what I'm doing. Are you instructing me?"

Asking repeatedly doesn't show more care...does show more desire for control.

I'm not sure this would be received well either, but are you saying this is the best way to share how I'm feeling at that point in time?

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H will speak...repeat after me...you acknowledge you are perceiving his upset, are not assuming what he's feeling, and you trust he'll tell you when he's ready. Respect for his ability, his choices...soothes your own.

Thank you, yes, I see that.

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Listen and repeats shares YOUR filter with him..."I hear you as huffy right now...which I see as attacking me, wanting to hurt me back for something." Calm sharing. It's great information to share...for you, him and your partnership.

Again, I still think that this may be met with some irritation but it's me sharing my stuff and it isn't conditional on what his response may or may not be. I get it.

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What do you do when your children interrupt you umpteen times? Do you have progressive boundary enforcements? Would healthy partnering have those, as well? Bet you can tell I was a big interrupter...an unconscious one...because I hid what I was really asking behind something else...like trying to psychically get my DH to stop/start something without others catching on. Like asking "What's wrong" eh?

You are so perceptive!!

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If you have consideration in your code...then progressive, predetermined boundary enforcements might have looked like this on H's first interruption...

I did say some things, don't remember exactly how I worded it...but of course, it didn't change his behavior because he was just feeling the way he was feeling and hadn't shared that. I couldn't know that. I wasn't talking across him, I was seated with the mom on one side and him on the other.

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Focus on you closing down and you opening up...that's in your control. He's able. His choice. Do you really believe you were communicating to the best of your ability in this instances? Do you believe without a doubt that what you said was clearly expressed, without assumption?

No obviously not. I did sincerely mean that I wanted to know what, if anything, was bothering him, but I wouldn't be surprised if, through his filter, he heard what's wrong, as "stop bothering me, you're annoying me...etc." I had no idea how loaded those words could be.

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I totally get this is not catastrophic...is it cumulative? Are you getting from the big issues down the tiny events...the ones maybe you skirted before because of its size?

Probably true, yes.

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That's what I hear...you want to control his mood, words, feelings, response and beliefs...so you can feel safe, loved, respected and honored. Little stuff that affects each of those areas...not wiping out the whole love bank...steadily leaking with tiny gouges...and out of the blue is a phrase to highlight to you your own expectations...from your belief of how he regularly behaves...doesn't say what he really does or doesn't.

In my mind, I don't feel like I want to control all of that, I want him to share. I'm not sure I get your last statement there...I'm missing it and I want to get it.

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He may zing you more often...and you won't notice each one because of your stuff, not his actions. Your perception is valid...doesn't make it his pattern, his reality.

So are you saying that I may perceive DH as having mood swings and he may not perceive that he has them? So where does factual information fit in? Does it make a difference?

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What if the ballpark and the kitchen was another signal to you, your deep desire to be heard...because you are not hearing your H. You're really not...and you're experiencing it as if you are...you are discounting his statements...hearing them as attacks, instruction, you doing it wrong...because you're asking him what's wrong with him? Like TJD said...part of the relationship pattern...which you broke for big stuff...now the little stuff, same patterns, more easily seen.

But how do you know this, how do you or I know that his statements weren't meant to be instructions or how I'm doing it wrong? I shouldn't assume they are, but by the same process, I shouldn't assume they are either...?

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"When you say "take a pill" I feel punched in my gut. What phrase do I say to you that gives you that feeling?"

This is great! I will try that.

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Normal...not healthy. Get your focus off him...and onto your power, what you control...holding yourself to your code...then the "take a pill" can be heard as, "I wish I was better at this...I fear your anger, sadness, disappointment and pain. I feel punched in my gut when I hear you're feeling one of these...and I desperately wish there was a magic pill for us to take because I love you."

But again, isn't that also an assumption? I just can't know where it's coming from if he doesn't tell me.

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You're not alone. I do this, also. I fall into focusing on DH, losing my center, into my old FOO patterns, too...over and over again...feels frustrating, irritating, hopeless and painful. Easy to see those as coming from DH, not in me, not my patterns, with my flavor of self-deception in it...helps me to relearn again, anew, what I already knew before...through practice.

Yes...I can see that...re-learn again and again, I am.

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I often learn how big my power is anew by how much I can hurt myself with justifications from assumptions which didn't own a thing...and see it as DH doing it, instead.

Ouch. okay. I see.

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Maybe we use blame when we mean to use boundaries?

Great question, great, great question.


Thanks again, LA


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LOL, I totally get your desire to vent. I think we should probably just tell everyone ahead of time 'this is just a vent post!' so they won't try to give us advice... wink

You asked what I thought was DJs so here are some things that caught my eye. I know that when I have said such things, that's what I was told - that I was DJing and not improving if I'm just going to make assumptions about him instead of looking at my own part. We may disagree on what's a DJ, I guess. I tend to think it's any time I'm imposing myself, my opinion, on what my H does.
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Usually the issue is related to something he did or said that to me was rude, inappropriate, disrespectful, mean, etc.

He would look at me and make comments as if he was irritated that I was not paying 100% attention to him. I tried to ask him about it but he would say "no, nothing's wrong" but in a tone of voice that clearly indicated annoyance.

he was watching me and following me around the kitchen making comments about things I should do etc...He has a tendency to oversee what I am doing and it frankly gets on my nerves.

More comments fly around this morning about it, how I won't let it go.

but he wasn't answering or listening.

and then when he acts like (a child, my assumption, I get that)

in my mind I am thinking, if you just tell me what's wrong at the time it happens, we could fix it and it be over with. I am trying to be more patient about that.
Not that there's anything wrong with you saying and feeling these things, it's just that, combined, it feels like your frustration is overpowering the steps you could be making or the inventiveness you could be bringing to your problems, which only makes your recovery take longer.

Anyway, back to unwillingness to negotiate...I usually notice that when one of a couple stops cooperating, it's because they feel unheard and put upon. Now, that may just be their assumption, but that really doesn't matter, because that assumption is what drives their behavior. So, basically, you have to decipher his 'assumption' about where he is in your marriage, and try to address that, and not the actions, which are just symptoms.

My H 'assumes' I want stuff from him just like his mother always wanted stuff from him, as he pretty much raised his siblings and took care of his mother - he was the go-to guy for everything. Because of that, when I ask him to do something, that old FOO irritation at being everyone's unappreciated workhorse kicks in and he digs his heels in. Now, I don't know the solution, short of just sitting my H down and talking to him about it, or maybe having a MC help us discuss it. But at least I can recognize why he's doing it, which keeps me from creating even more drama into our lives. I could just get mad at him all the time and throw a fit if he doesn't help me, but wouldn't it be smarter to understand where his reluctance to help is coming from?

If I had to give one piece of advice, I think that would be it - try to get inside his head and figure out how HE is seeing your marriage.

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Well Cat, I want to vent and I want advice.

Yeah, I want it all, lol!

I do agree that those comments appear to be DJ's. When I refer to things that are rude, disrespectful, in my mind, I am thinking of things that are things most average people I know would consider rude or disrespectful...society standards if you will. Sometimes, yes, I may be thinking about "my standards" which may be different. I do need to learn to stick with sharing my stuff, how I am feeling at that time, instead of labeling him.

I do agree Cat, that my frustration gets in the way of things sometimes for sure.

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Anyway, back to unwillingness to negotiate...I usually notice that when one of a couple stops cooperating, it's because they feel unheard and put upon. Now, that may just be their assumption, but that really doesn't matter, because that assumption is what drives their behavior. So, basically, you have to decipher his 'assumption' about where he is in your marriage, and try to address that, and not the actions, which are just symptoms.

I really like what you said here, especially the part I put in bold. That makes a lot of sense, and I see this in my own behavior at times as well. Do you think it would be worthwhile to consider what some of these "assumptions" are and then ask him if he is feeling this way, i.e., "I wonder if you sometimes think I won't really listen when you talk to me"?

Thank you for sharing the situation with your husband. I do think that just understanding some of the underlying issues/patterns that drive my DH's behavior, even if it doesn't change anything, at least right away, will help me to avoid feeling hurt when these things happen. A little understanding of where we are both coming from. Nothing wrong with that.

I want to know these things about him. The few rare instances that he has shared something like this made me feel very close to him. When he can open up to me and share something very personal and possibly painful, I see him as his own person with all his own stuff. Makes a world of difference even if his behavior hasn't changed one iota. To know and be known; my ultimate desire for my marriage.

I will take your advice and try to put myself in his place and see what happens.

Thanks Cat!

Mazzy




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I do think that just understanding some of the underlying issues/patterns that drive my DH's behavior, even if it doesn't change anything, at least right away, will help me to avoid feeling hurt when these things happen.
Absolutely! It's all about having or keeping compassion for your partner, no matter how little he may deserve it. Because if you lose that compassion, it sucks the life out of you, as well. I'm a good example of that. Seven months ago, I hated my husband. I came here, learned, and tried to find ways to cut him some slack. Removing my LBs, trying to meet his ENs, even though I felt he didn't deserve it, made me start liking him again. A little. But it's better than where I was.

Also, understanding what/how they're thinking gives you an edge. If you can do it, it lets you predict what he will do, keeps you from just reacting - allows you to pro-act - and do things smarter, instead of just bouncing off of each other miserably. Also helps with the compassion. I look at H and I can picture his mom harping at him, him feeling under duress, wondering why he never got to have a childhood, and then I see him sitting on our couch, and getting the same icky feeling all over again when I ask for something.

Now, we all know he should be willing to help me, that's what marriage is, but we also know people who don't come to places like MB just react, don't think things through. So we have to help them do things smarter.

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Do you think it would be worthwhile to consider what some of these "assumptions" are and then ask him if he is feeling this way, i.e., "I wonder if you sometimes think I won't really listen when you talk to me"?
I'd be really careful how I do this, though if you can figure out how to do it, it will benefit you both. He is likely extremely defensive of anything you say these days, so bringing up something like this will be extremely suspicious. If I were to do that, I'd couch it in something innocuous. Like, "I was thinking today about your mom. I remember you said she did XYZ. And I got to thinking how hard that must have been for you. (put in the compassion and love and concern you have for him) Did you ever feel like ABC when that happened?"

If he then opens up a little (we all love being asked personal questions, we all love to feel like someone else is really interested in us), keep the conversation going. Let him talk about himself. It will drop in a lot of love points in his bucket, that you're interested in his life. Then use your judgment on whether he's open to talking more. If not, drop it for now. Start adding some more conversations like that, in the next few weeks; add in stuff about your own life; basically, just get talking again. When you feel he's not being so defensive, you could bring it up again.


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