This kinda sounds like an addiction. You can get seriously addicted to different internet activities... online games... this board...

Does that seem to fit? If so, the techniques are completely different for dealing with addictions. Basically, I think you must deal with the addiction before any of the MB techniques can work.

I'm sorry if you've already explored this in an earlier post.

jayne241,

No, I haven't explored this in my other posts. If it's an addiction, that really sucks.

I guess if I decide that's what it is, I have to tell him I think his game playing has gotten compulsive, why I think that way, and that I can't share it with him anymore. And perhaps also that it's up to him to find something else we can do together.

But if I'm wrong and I do those things, that totally messes up my Plan A. So how do I know for sure?

I don't know... please don't make any changes in your Plan A without carefully considering. I'm not saying it is an addiction; but it might be worth considering.

There's a set of questions to figure out if you're an alcoholic or an addict. I forget what they are, but I think one is, does your <drinking, etc> affect your personal relationships or your work. Does he miss work, or deadlines, or does it affect his health like by missing sleep? It's certainly affecting your relationship.

What made me think of addiction was the way you describe him being more concerned with advancing his character than with helping you in the game; but not just that. That *could* understandable, maybe like a golfer not really enjoying teaching a novice, and might prefer a round with people more on his level. But you also said that his friends online aren't really friends either; that he is just interested in advancing, even with the other players. To me that sounds like someone addicted to the game.

In this game are there "channels" where players can carry on convos w/ each other while playing? I've known people who started relationships on such games, even gotten married. You can have social interaction even while playing.

Again, please don't mess up your Plan A just because I mentioned addiction. Make sure that's the case before doing anything.

Okay, well I explained that I had some concerns about the game and what those concerns were. I said I was worried that his playing was starting to become compulsive, that I could be wrong but can't he see why this would look bad? And I kept everything to "I" statements, so we'll see how that goes.

Aside from an addiction, it could also be an escape. No disrespect to men, but I see time and time again that when men marry, they sometimes develop this 'what can I hold on to and what will my wife take away from me' attitude. And an 'oh great there she goes again telling me what I'm doing wrong jeez I wish she would just shut up' attitude. Know what I mean?

So it could be that he's doing it because while he's 'busy,' he doesn't have to interact with you on honey-dos and nagging and being told what he's doing wrong. Not that you are doing that, but that he may be perceiving marriage in general as such.

hi all,

I feel silly now. Turns out it wasn't that big a deal. He had hoped I'd be able to catch up to him by now in the game, but I'm just not as good. But the game has lots of games within the game, so we decided to do more of those and did so starting tonight. And he has been playing a lot more lately but only because his health hasn't been great (and it's something to do that doesn't take much effort) so we talked about his symptoms, and I urged him to go see his doctor again.

Good for you Aph.

Update - things are going pretty well, considering. My husband and I are in contact every day either talking or playing online, usually a little of both. After my complaint a while ago he's been really good at making sure when we're playing online that we do things we can do together.

It still seems so strange reading posts about BS's here wanting more information and getting lied to, etc. while my husband just doesn't want to know anything. Maybe someday that will change.

In the meantime, there are some things that have been bouncing around in my head so maybe I'll just tell you all. I can't really explain why or what purpose it would even serve to talk about it here or anywhere else, though. Maybe I just need to talk about it so it goes from being in my head to outside my head and I can forget about it for a while. But here's a bit of my history.

I think my views on marriage were pretty normal before meeting my first OM. When I found out he had cheated on his wife in the past I reacted like most normal people would - I was shocked, angry and asked why he didn't just divorce her if he was going to do that. His exact rationalizations don't matter now, the point is he's much better at making them than the average person. He was brilliant, and most people who knew him would agree he was an extremely intelligent, persuasive person. Not that I'm trying to shift the blame on him. Before marriage, I had cheated on, or traded for a new one, almost every boyfriend I ever had (but I thought marrying the right man was THE solution to that - that it would be easy to be faithful if he was "the one".)

We stayed in contact regularly, almost daily, for years even after he moved away. He not only knew about subsequent affairs of mine but liked to live vicariously through stories I'd tell him about my being with other men. And he'd give me tips on how not to get caught. I allowed him to have an enormous amount of influence to the point where I became just like him. I don't know how I could have done that. Now I'm really depressed, maybe I was better off not thinking about this stuff?

Actually, I think it's very insightful of you to examine this part of your past thoroughly, before you cast it aside for better choices. Good job!
Pep

Hey Miss a,

I agree with Pep.

Very insightful, and you were totally sucked into this.

Good that you see this.

Can you share with BH?

That you were sucked in and dumb for the moment?

Best wishes!

Love in Christ
Miss M

Aphaeresis - since you decided on another thread that your advice to the person seeking help was better than my advice simply because both she and I are "persons of faith," I assume you will not like my posting on your thread. As you know, I have stayed away from posting to you, but now Miss M's responsive post to you regarding this post of yours has prompted me to offer up a few comments for you to think about as you are thinking about these latest thoughts.

You see, the "difference" between you and me on this subject of infidelity in your life is NOT that I am a believer and that you are not, it is a question of WHAT Standards do you embrace for yourself and WHY do they "control" your behavior regardless of circumstances. It is a question of "authority."


Miss M posited that you were "sucked in and dumb for the moment" and, therefore by extension of logic, somehow not responsible for the choices you made. That's "blameshifting" again, the old "the devil made me do it" excuse for avoiding responsibility for your actions and avoiding the necessity of have to make REAL changes that you also CHOOSE to make, permanent changes based upon the Standards that you choose to "surrender you life to" regardless of what you might "want or feel."


Really? You think, or thought, that "marriage" only meant sex with ONE man, your husband, for the rest of your life?

Interesting if true, but you "changed your mind" didn't you? Not just once, not just one "mistake," but many times. The "standard" of a "pretty normal marriage" seems to have either not been there or your standard was that you can change the standards to be whatever you want whenever you want it.

Is that STILL the "standard" you are going to operate the rest the of your life on? If so, why? If not, why?

More importantly, why should your husband BELIEVE that you have changed permanently? Remember, YOU were shocked that he wasn't "so shocked." It doesn't sound as though he believes it today as much as he simply accepts that you will do whatever want to do and, therefore, doesn't want the "details" because he really doesn't care what you do....stay with him or leave him.

Additionally, it also says a lot about HIS "Standards" for marriage.

It would seem that a discussion about "gaming" is nice, but what the two of you really need to discuss are "Standards" and "Boundaries," what they are in general, with respect to marriage, what they are for each of you, and WHY they should be the "authority" in your lives that you surrender to even when you "don't feel like it."



Yep, he was much better than the "average Joe" at appealing to your pre-marriage mindset of using people for your own gratification, just as he had rationalized it. In short, he told you what you wanted to hear.



Got it. "Extremely intelligent, persuasive person(s)" EQUALS morally and ethically correct people.

"Extremely intelligent, persuasive person(s)" EQUALS "good people."

"Extremely intelligent, persuasive person(s)" who dream up tempting justifications for CHEATING and VIOLATING VOWS and PROMISES to one's SPOUSE EQUALS Doing unto others as you would have them do unto you.

Sex with anyone I want to have sex with = "good."
Sex ONLY with my SPOUSE = "bad."

Now, how many "brilliant" arguments (rationalizations and justifications) can a WAYWARD SPOUSE in a "Wayward Spouse" mindset, "DREAM UP" to make it sound as though "bad choices = good choices?"



Of course you are trying to "blameshift," and Miss M "bought into it" and tries to validate you as being "just sucked in" by some "silver tongued devil."

You CHOSE. Period. The choice, regardless of the temptation, is always the responsibility of the person MAKING the choice.

You choose to reject "religion." You choose to reject Christ. You choose not "accept" a "religious moral code" because (here comes the rationalization again) you reject any "higher authority" than yourself and your own wants and desires.

You established your moral choices on your premarital behavior. It was always what YOU wanted. All this particular "first" OM. So "brilliant," so not concerned about any "outside authority," so good at telling you what you want to hear to justify "doing anything you WANT to do." Let your emotions RULE you. Keep honesty and integrity out it. Let your hormone driven desires be both the reason and the excuse for separating "sex" from "fidelity to one man," after all, you are your own individual and not "created" for any purpose, you are evolved to be interested in "getting what you want no matter what anyone else thinks" in a "survival of the fittest" sort of way. IF you get what you want, it's "good" no matter what anyone else thinks.





Yep, another "person" just interested in what HE gets out it.
And you got a thrill out of describing it to him. "Symbiotic" relationship, or "Paracytic" relationship? What do you think?

"Birds of a feather?"

What sort of "bird" do you really want to be, Aph?





"I don't know how I could have done that."

Of course you do, Aph. You know EXACTLY how you not only "could" do that, but DID do that. You know WHY you did it, too.

This "self-examination stuff" does get depressing because no one "likes" to think that they are NOT "perfect." No one "likes" to think that there IS "some standard" out there by which they are "judged" by someone or something with the authority TO judge and to hold people accountable for their CHOICES.

THAT, Aph, is why (in religious terminology) the LAW was given to us. It was to CONVICT us, individually, that we are ARE sinners. But the "easy" way to avoid having to face that FACT is to simple deny that God exists. "No God, no authority" beyond what I want to do.

Standards and Boundaries and WHY they should be applicable to you AND to anyone else.

"NO Eve, you will NOT 'surely die'. You will become LIKE God, knowing Good and Evil." Such a "silver tongued devil." Such a "first OM."

And now I'll fade back out of your thread Aph.

My apology for the "intrusion" and not being as "silver tongued" as your first OM while married.

FH,

That's not why I didn't like your advice. Depending on which thread you're talking about I either didn't like your advice because 1- The person you were trying to advise did not share your faith and I was afraid you would chase her away from the boards with all your fanatical proselytizing or 2- You were giving that one guy, a betrayed husband, a 2 x4 when it was clear he was much too fragile for a 2 x4. He was asking for specific instructions and was only getting vague platitudes.

Second, your advice often deviates from Marriage Builders and amounts to "follow my religion or else." Well, FH, not everyone is going to follow your religion. That doesn't mean they can't learn MB principles. There is nothing about MB that is inconsistent with non-Christian religions or philosophies. If you want to talk about Christianity with other Christians, I have no problem with that. But I have a big problem with you chasing away non-Christians from MB because you can't stop trying to proselytize. You think it will gain you converts and maybe brownie points with God but all it will really do is drive people away from the boards who don't share your particular religious views. Maybe that's what you want, but I don't think it's what the Harleys intended for this board. And for the record, you won't convert or chase me away.

And yes, when I got married I had every intention of staying faithful for the rest of my life. That's what I meant when I said my views of marriage started out pretty normal - except that I thought it would be easier than it was.

And no, I'm not saying it was my first OM's fault. That is why I brought up my pre-marriage pattern - I recognize that the pattern was already there and so I can't blame my first OM for that.

As for standards and boundaries, yes I have discussed standards and boundaries with my husband. I recently accidentally ran into some guy I dated in college (before I met my husband), who also happens to be a friend of my sister which is why I ran into him. I emailed my husband and told him not because it was a big deal (I had only dated him briefly and hadn't seen him in 12 years) but because I wanted to be totally transparent. And I asked my husband if he was okay with what happened. He was okay with it, and launched into a big lecture about what he's NOT okay with. And I handled it just fine - he got no grief from me. And when my sister's friend was by to see her again, I told him that, too.

Thanks Pep and MissM,

Right now he's not interested in the how and why. He might not ever be, and that's his decision, I think.

However, I did get him to agree to read about emotional needs and pick his top 5. So we are getting around to discussing relationship stuff, just a little bit at a time here and there. That seems to be what he prefers.

Hi APH. . .


Yea, pattern, entrenched behavior, one of the more active weaknesses that drive affairs. Glad to see you reject that you were sucked in. Tons of women "Trade up" as they go through their dating years, or "just having fun" years as they choose to call it. The focus is on getting the best catch instead of the best relationship.

Remember these?

1. God and mom made him, you ain't gonna change him.
2. Let him fall in love with you, not what you pretend to be.
3. Don't make babies until you know it is gonna work and he will stick (and so will you).
4. If he doesn't have a sense of humor, forget it.
5. Two's company, three's a crowd. Relationships don't work in a crowd.

APH - you sure are passing out some good advice. All the above you know; I just wanted to say something to you on topic. Keep on keeping on. And all the best.

Larry

What would be "easier than it was, marriage or being faithful?

It is a true saying,‘Hell is paved with good intentions’.
[1736 Wesley Journal 10 July (1910) I. i. 246]




Aphaeresis, I have no intention of either. The first is not possible, only God can convert someone. The second is irrelevant. Stay or go, it's YOUR choice.

But it is interesting how you don't like someone to talk about faith and obedience to God, apparently trying to get them to leave the system to your Standards and Morals. A very interesting mindset any way you look at it.




You and I have differing opinions. So what? I (and as several other posting members also stated) am of the opinion that that guy needs to develop a "spine" in the worst way or he's NOT likely to have any chance at recovering his marriage. Or I guess he could just take your husband's approach of not caring and not wanting to know. Which is better? Who knows? Whatever works for you, I guess, but we already know that your "best intentions" are subject to change whenever you want them to. Standards, that don't vary with "circumstances," Aph, THAT's what I tried to discuss with you when you first arrived here under your former "handle" and that you fought against discussing.

What's to keep you from finding that the "future" is tougher than you thought it would be and reverting back to your former "way to handle the tough road?"

And, yes, that's an "MB nerf 2x4," but still a question you need to answer for yourself. WHY would you surrender your right to change you mind and do whatever you want to do in the future and WHAT standards that exist OUTSIDE of yourself, that are "authoritative" over you, will you adopt as YOUR standards "no matter what the future may hold?"




That's a good start. Are your standards and boundaries the same? But what about taking them beyond the "discussion" stage and into the "application" to your life stage? Knowledge, by itself, is powerless and ineffective if not applied. What's going to keep you, and keep your husband, from deciding in the future that adultery is okay, and "amend" your standards to allow for infidelity?




Tsk, tsk. To be perfectly honest and transparent with you, Aph, I don't give a hoot if you like or dislike any advice I offer to another member. I was speaking to them, not you. The advice was for them, not you. They can accept it or reject it as they see fit, just like you did. You want to play 'guardian watchdog' (I almost said 'guardian angel,' but then I remembered you don't believe in angels or any 'higher authority' than yourself) of the system? WHO appointed you?



Get a grip on your life before you try to advise others, Aph. That would be my advice TO you.


Aren't you happy you "picked a fight" again? Oh ya, I forgot, you DO like to play games.

Hi Aph,

When was the answer the last time you asked yourself if you still want to save your relationship with your husband?

If you answered “yes” then,

What are today’s reasons why you want to save your marriage?

If you answered “no” then,

Mr. G

FH,

Obviously you very much do care whether I like or dislike your advice, or you wouldn't have gone through all the trouble to hunt down one of my threads and post a complaint about me not liking your advice. If it doesn't matter to you, why bring it up? That's a rhetorical question, of course.

As to what standards I have outside myself, I already answered that question a long time ago. But because the answer wasn't "God" you wouldn't accept it. That's your problem, not mine.

Mr. Goodstuff,

Today's reasons would be, besides that I love him (which is necessary but not sufficient); we have a history together; we have a similar worldview; similar views on religion and politics (I know some people have religiously or politically mixed marriages and it works, but I don't think that would work for me); he still knows me better than anyone although obviously there's a lot I kept from him; at the risk of sounding vain, I honestly think he's happier as a married man and that he's happier when things are going well with us. That's why no affair I had was ever an exit affair - I couldn't have hurt him like that and I don't think I would have had any affair at all if I hadn't convinced myself that it wouldn't really hurt him if he didn't know.

Of course, the fact that we have kids and I don't want to break up the family or subject them to a divorce is also a reason. But that's more of a reason to avoid divorce, rather than working on having a real marriage. There is a distiction, I think.

Hi Larry,


Yup, although when you're young most of your catches are bad almost by definition and any relationship is doomed from the start.

Been thinking about the concept of extraordinary precautions lately, but I think I'll start a new thread for that. Just letting you know it'll be out there soon.