And I would like to make it clear, to stress – I am rather happy now. I have moved beyond my paltry ENs.

I see a much bigger picture.

With prayers,

Well I'm glad you wrapped up your little stink bomb with such a nicey nice signoff aphelion.

Who ever told you it was your job to save your wife? Something you can't do BTW?

Who ever told you it was righteous witholding from her the consequences of her decisions and actions? Heck - if she faced THAT she might even be in a place where God could actually deal with her and her salvation would be assured.

Who ever said anything about sacrificing the children for the fathers ego?

Goodness me.

Do you think Aphelion what you are modelling will be a good thing for your children to follow? Do you think they don't know, can't sense that their parents marriage is a sham? You think it's godly sucking it up in a loveless marriage?

I sure wouldn't cut and run on my children for any reason but if my wife won't be a wife and she has committed adultery then God gives me the permission to end my marriage and that would be for the best for all parties concerned.

It ocurrs to me I am more sorry for you than I am for fww, bk.

I will pray for you.

70 times 7.

I'm glad you know better than God.

Just a friendly reminder to keep this thread respectful. The Harleys thank you.

BigK, I'm surprised that you would consider me unrespectable considering you know my story so very well.

But in truth, your opinion of me is none of my business.

Its ME I see in the mirror and I'm pretty proud of me.

i think it depends on the situation.

there were multiple affairs in my marriage.

my ex slept on the couch for the last 2 years of it.

he took the kids around his affair partners telling them they were just friends.

so....

no way was i making any more sacrifices. i was NOT going to allow my children to think the way we lived was normal and ok. that daddy's sleep on the couch and have lots of female friends. that families don't do things together. that parents don't show each other affection. that daddy's leave the house as soon as mommy comes home and don't get back until 2am or later.

no way was i going to let my daughter think it was ok to be treated that way by a man. and no way was i going to let my son think it was ok to act like that.

no way.

i was done sacrificing and living off of scraps.
oh, i can look in the mirror and say i did all i could because i did. i didn't throw him out after the first infidelity. but i did after about the tenth.

so, i think it is really situational.

mlhb

This thread has catalysed deep thought in me as I mowed the garden

My life and happiness are far LESS than the sum of its ingredients.

Squid:

loves me and shows me so in many ways
Shows me affection( high EN)
Shows me admiration ( high EN)
invests acts of service in me
is completely transparent without complaint ( personal boundary)
has quit refereeing and in fact has effectively quit the sport that I loathe so much ( personal boundary AND a wish)
is a diligent mom and wife practically ( EN of FC and DS)
has remained in total NC for 3 years
has expressed regret for her A and apologised
helps me run my MB ministry from our church.

That is more than I could have dreamed on D-day.

So why am I so unhappy in my M ?

It could be that I am just one of those who can't get over it regardless of what she does. As I said to myrev a while back, all the above feels like turd polish most times.

I should be really happy, but I am sad and getting sadder despite the clear investment of Squid.

need to think more. Good thread though, despite some shouting.

Aph,
I have extreme feelings of sorrow for you after reading your posts. I am shocked that someone could reach such a place where they think so little of their own happiness. YOu are coming across as a martyr.
Honestly, if anyone in my real life expressed the views that you did, I would strongly recommend intense counseling...I would suggest the same for you in hopes that you can learn to be happy and a model for your children.
I wish you nothing but the best, but I am afraid that with the views you bring to the table, you are destined to live a miserable life.
Sad, so very sad.

MEDC

Bob,
I was aliitle taken aback after reading theis post. I thought things were so much better for you at this point in recovery.

It would seem that Squid has done all the right things to R your M, yet you seem to backsliding in a true R.

I believe we all have to come to grips with the fact that something horrendouus has happened in our M. Something we certainly could never have planned on, nor expected. If we believed that to be true, we would have slid out the side door of our wedding ceremony before we exchanged vows.

It's a grieving proces, Bob, and each of us has own timeline that will be dictated by us. It irks me to no end when I read folks saying, basically, that you'll be OK in two years .

I have always been a staunch believer, that each of us has their own timeline and it could be anywherre from two years to twenty years. JMHO

You're not done yet Bob, and although sad at the moment, you will press on and continue to be the man God want's you to be. I'm quite sure of it.

Settle down a bit Bob, you've lost no respect in my eyes, for whatever that's worth. You've actually gained more respect for remaining faithful and consistant in God's eye.

All Blessings,
Jerry

i agree with what BK screamed regarding not remaining in a loveless marriage. It was my boundary that is ending my marriage. My WH didn't cheat again, but he gave me nothing, no shows of love, and so it was time to end it. I am NO martyr, have no plans on being a martyr and do not believe I have any power to save anybody's soul.

As to the topic of the thread. SF would trigger me everytime, but I pushed the thoughts out of my head. As someone else said, as a woman, I can still keep 'going' after the thoughts come and go. My trigger was when WH would start to really get into it, and begin showing his enjoyment; it just reminded me EACH time, the that him getting his jollies with OW was more important than ANYTHING at the time. I questioned if he even noticed if it was ME that was there. eeewwwwwww. Then he stopped having sex with me alltogether, which was ever so reassuring. Yuck.

I'm glad he's not sleeping on my couch anymore. This last year was horrible, and I would NEVER wish that on anybody but WH (sorry, a little angry these days--working on it.)

BP,

Before I answer this, understand that I have found value in many things you've posted (I still reflect frequently on your description of "turd polish"), but we just don't see this issue from the same perspective probably because I have been divorced with children before and have first hand experience on how something GREAT can come from such a terrible situation.

It is my EXPERIENCE that children learn from us (even subtle things) much more than we realize. My 1st wife and I were completely incompatible and should have never married, but nevertheless made those foolish choices in our youth. We seperated while she was pregnant with my son, and the divorce was final shortly after he was born, and he lived with his mother through his middle school years, with me being the "every other weekend Dad", as they lived 100 miles away.

We had an older daughter also, but I had the opportunity to bond with her early on prior to the seperation, so we had a foundation to build our relationship. However, my son and I never "lived" full time under the same roof until he was 13 years old. His mother was not unlike many of the tragic stories we see here, with a revolving door of men and at least 2 bankruptcies, with the further instability that brought. He had few close friends, was never allowed to participate in extraciricular activities, and was socially immature . He could have easily "fallen through the cracks".

However, at 13 he called one day and asked to come live with me. After the details were worked out with his mother, and he had moved in, I asked "WHY?" he had chosen to come live with me, because I didn't "think" he was as close to me as his sister. His answer, in a nutshell, was that he was tired of the turmoil and liked how we (I was now married to FogFree) lived our lives. It seems he was tired of his Mom's "men", having to lie for her to bill collectors that would call, etc. He had two very distinct lifestyle examples, and he was drawn to our lifestyle.

Let me digress a little ... in my profession, it has been my experience that when two people with different morals marry, nearly always the one with the weaker morals and ethics will drag the other down to their level, rather than the other way around. This was a major reason for our divorce, as I had too much pride and/or self-respect to live the life I could see for us in the future.

Fast Forward 10 years and he has graduated from a fine college with honors, has a super job as a software engineer, and at 23 is closing on the purchase of his 1st home on May 9th. He is happy ... he and I have the best father/son relationship that I know of ... and quite frankly, we are likely each others best friends (We even look and sound amazingly alike ... and more importantly, he is NOTHING like his mother). I am proud to call him my son, and I think the feeling is mutual.

Had I stayed with his mother, I'm sure neither of us would have been as well adjusted as we are today, nor as successful, nor as happy. I had to seperate myself from the situation to preserve myself and my self-respect ... the rest followed naturally.

So to answer your question ... NO, I don't "respect" fathers who claim to "stay because of their children". I RESPECT fathers who remain true to themselves and their values, and lead a good productive life and are there for their children, even if from afar.

You simply can't be true to yourself if you are willing to compromise yourself by remaining in an unhappy and unfulfilling situation ... and BELIEVE ME, your children are paying attention and learning from your example. I want my children to learn how to be happy and have respect for themselves, not how to endure an unhappy situation.

Myrev, your words resonate with me. I learned some bad lessons from a father that decided to stay with a cheat and emotionally abusive woman..for the kids sake. I wish he hadn't. By not leaving and protecting his children from his wife, my mother, my dad taught me (and my brothers) some lessons that needed to be "unlearned" later in life.
There is nothing I would have wanted more than to see my dad happy. That would have taught me the most valuable lesson. He realized this later on in life and it resulted in huge regrets.

I think the most important job of any parent is to protect and serve as a great role model for their children. Staying with an abuser or a repeat cheater teaches your children that abuse should be tolerated. IMHO, that is doing the children a huge disservice.


Wonderfully stated.

This is a very complex issue with subjective, individual dynamics, IMO, so it is hard to assert a general principle about whether we stay or not. Much of it depends on our individual personalities and what we can or can't endure.

I do not believe it is "abandonment" to leave a marriage after infidelity. On the other hand, I do agree that the best interest of the children has to be part of the consideration. To do otherwise, would be criminal.

I come from parents who never considered our best interest because they believed they were entitled to seek their own happiness...........at any cost. That is gross dereliction of duty, IMO. They were under the illusion that children can only be "happy" if they are happy. I didn't give a DAMN if my parents were "happy." It never once crossed my mind. I only cared if *I* was happy. My happiness came from my SECURITY, something that was destroyed in my parents pursuit of "happiness."

So, I do think that children have to be considered. And it is for that reason that I believe sometimes divorce is the best answer for all. In marriages where there is longterm abuse, the mental health of the BS can be jeopardized. Resentment cannot be overcome. It is not in the best interest of anyone - especially children - for a BS to jeopardize her/his mental health.

A parent who jeopardizes his mental health is not helping his children, but endangering the ONLY security in the children's lives. He won't be too great of a parent if he is in the nuthouse because he wouldn't protect himself from abuse or stayed in a situation that kept him in a perpetual state of resentment.

He is also teaching his children to grow up to be little abusers or to be abused. Children NEED to see parents HANDLE life's problems in a coherent, justifiable, SANE manner. There is no virtue in sitting around like a lump taking abuse. That is teaching children to be helpless; doormat training.

I would also emphasize that we all different personalities and as such, have different tolerance levels. That needs to be respected. For example, there is no way in he11 I would ever be able to execute a Plan A. I fully recognize my limitations. Others have the ability to do so, I don't. I don't have a Plan A personality. Nor would I ever be able to withstand serial cheating. I most certainly don't look down on those who DO; I just know and understand my own limitations. We are all different and it is important to recognize that.

MEDC, I totally agree.

You made some very good points, Mel. I totally agree that different personalities come into play. It's up to each individual (with God's help) to decide what they will and will not be willing to live with. I do not disrespect others who have different boundaries than me; we are all wired so differently.
There is no cookie cutter solution that fits every situation.

Also, I believe it's true that in some situations, it's best for the children when the parents stay together even in less than a stellar marriage; in other cases, things have become so poisonous, the children are better served by the parents being apart.

Me giving my marriage all I had WAS me considering my son, and I am very glad that I did try. I, too, was not a very good Plan A candidate; I did what I could, but had my limits. I was more of a Plan recovery candidate, but still came up against a brick wall. I had to call it quits before my resentment began to take over AGAIN. It's just not healthy for ME.


ewwwwwwy. I suppose I do have too much pride,'cause I just couldn"t go on. I was doing harm to myself

BTW, to the OP, just want to say

I can sense you are in a much better place mentally. Yes, you are still angry, but it's not that scary homicidal anger you (understandably) had before. I've just noticed lately that you are showing humor and introspection and other signs of healing, and I'm happy for you. I really think your marriage has a good chance to survive and even flourish; I doubted that for quite a while. You have endured a lot and I am praying that together you and your wife can heal.

I guess we are all products of our experiences, including our upbringing.

If I had a failed marriage in my past as some posters here do, perhaps I'd be less invested in my current imperfect one too ?

My life is good, my marriage is okay. My kids do very well indeed. despite the assumptions by some posters here, my kids do not see me "sucking it up". They see the truth - a man saddened by life's experiences but accepting of them.

My divorcing Squid wouldn't change the fundamental reason I am still so hurt in any case.

I do not see anything noble about a father abandoning a potentially saveable marriage with kids because his masculine pride was offended by his cuckolding. I guess again my lack of experience there informs my view.

You did good, BobPure; you are one of the true success stories here.