No. Because he sees her every day. That is a true fact.


That is not true. He sees her at work every day, THAT IS CONTACT. Secondly, you only have the word of a liar about the EXTENT of contact. All waywards are liars, it is a classic trait.


You ARE letting the pitfalls run your life right now. Your marriage and mental health are not safe. You are placing yourself and your marriage in grave danger by agreeing to this set up. You are playing Russian Roulette with your marriage.

I liked dat part, too!

Mel,
It's funny...H just called after his morning meetings. He's trying to get out early and come home...
Anyway, without me bringing it up he says to me..."you know, I'm feeling much better lately. Without the interaction with OW I feel so much happier and am able to really enjoy our time much more. It's amazing how different it feels' So, I took it upon myself to bring up your bar analogy and I told him "you know, that's all well and good, but you're still an alcoholic tending bar. You cannot expect me to think it's ok that just because you say everything is fine, it is. Everything is not fine and you cannot continue to go to the bar every day and have a drink dangled in front of your face'. He said...I know, I agree with what you're saying. I did not initially agree because I thought that was stupid, but I do agree now. We will get through this and I will do what has to be done".

So, good right? I know, I won't hang my hat on it, but it's a beginning. I have made it crystal clear that I will NOT tolerate his being there with her in the vicinity. What happens if he gets another job in the city and she's still working in the city? Do I have to clear him out of the zip code? ITs' a big city, but is it big enough?

fiori, if you go read some of lifechoice's posts, she will tell you that she did not really come out of the fog until she stopped working with the OM.

So, even if he doesn't still interact with the OW TODAY, just being in her vicinity in the same building keeps him from withdrawing and keeps him in a state of fog. That is the BEST CASE SCENARIO. More often than not, the affair resumes because the affairees are TRIGGERED EVER DAY and they eventually give into it.

I have been here for 7 years and this is one corner I would NEVER EVER cut. Doing so consistently leads to disaster.

Print this out and hand it to him:

Dr. Harley in Coping with Infidelity: Part 2
How Should Affairs End?


Never see or communicate with a former lover

Once an affair is first revealed, whether it's discovered or admitted, the victimized spouse is usually in a state of shock. The first reaction is usually panic, but it's quickly followed by anger. Divorce and sometimes even murder are contemplated. But after some time passes (usually about three weeks), most couples decide that they will try to pull together and save their marriage.

The one having an affair is in no position to bargain, but he or she usually tries anyway. The bargaining effort usually boils down to somehow keeping the lover in the loop. You'd think that the unfaithful spouse would be so aware of his or her weaknesses, and so aware of the pain inflicted, that every effort would be made to avoid further contact with the lover as an act of thoughtfulness to the stunned spouse. But instead, the unfaithful spouse argues that the relationship was "only sexual" or was "emotional but not sexual" or some other peculiar description to prove that continued contact with the lover would be okay.

Most victimized spouses intuitively understand that all contact with a lover must end for life. Permanent separation not only helps prevent a renewal of the affair, but it is also a crucial gesture of consideration to someone who has been through he11. What victimized spouse would ever want to know that his or her spouse is seeing or communicating with a former lover at work or in some other activity?

In spite of career sacrifices, friendships, and issues relating to children's schooling, I am adamant in recommending that there be no contact with a former lover for life. For many, that means a move to another state. But to do otherwise fails to recognize the nature of addiction and its cure.

<snip>

We don't know if R.J. still sees his lover, but he says he has broken off all contact. In many cases where a person is still in town, that's hard to prove. But one thing's for sure, if he ever does see his lover, it will put him in a state of perpetual withdrawal from his addiction, and make the resolution of his marriage essentially impossible. In fact, one of the reasons he is not recovering after three months of separation may be that he is not being truthful about the separation.

Entire article at: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5060_qa.html

How to Survive an Affair chapter in HIS NEEDS, HER NEEDS
p. 177

...I have seen husbands build new and wonderful relationships with their wives but then go back to their lovers after five or six years of what appeared to be marital bliss. When I ask them why, they inevitably tell me they miss the woman terribly and still love her. At the same time they stoutly affirm they love their wives dearly and would not think of leaving them.

I believe a man like this has told the truth. He is hopelessly entangled and needs all the help possible to be kept away from his lover and stay faithful to his wife. I often recommend that a man once involved in an affair come in to see me every three to six months on an indefinite basis, just to talk about how things are going and to let me know how successfully he has stayed away from his lover. He must resign himself to a lifetime without her. HE MUST CERTAINLY NOT WORK WITH HIS FORMER LOVER AND SHOULD PROBABLY LIVE IN SOME OTHER CITY OR STATE. Even with those restrictions the desire for her company persists...

The only other thing I would add...

Have you and your H watched the Infidelity Video by Dr. Harley found on the home page here? It is pretty powerful. I think it was the equivalent of a smack in the face for my H and he actually cried while watching it.

It really illustrates 1) how painful the A is to the BS and 2) the importance of NC...and more. I think it would be helpful for your H to see...not to mention it's straight from Dr. Harley's mouth.

Mel & tbp,
Well, last night H and I had a long chat regarding the revelations here. He says that he understands completely about having to be out of the company where she still works. I do fear, however, that she will follow him elsewhere and I cannot do anything to stop her. A bit desperate, she is.
But, I printed out the 'transcripts' of our entire exchange and gave it to him to read. This was very good reading for him...I appreciate your blunt kindness. We're chugging along!!!

Melody,
I'm still curious as to why you think my line at the bottom is incorrect.

Then he would have to move again, i fear. And perhaps eventually get a restraining order. But it is essential if you ever want to recover your marriage. Remember, recovery cannot begin until contact ENDS and that has not happened yet.


hopefully, that will help you make a decision to chug *FORWARD* into recovery. And that can happen once he ends contact. Recovery starts when contact ENDS.


Because contact HAS NOT ENDED. Your tag line says "NC 3/08 Finally!" but that is not accurate. They work together.

Fiori,
Told you I'd get here eventually. My story really is much closer to yours than I imagined. I have a little different perspective on NC. Ideally, we could insulate our H's to where OW would never find them. Reality is OW can if she wants to no matter where H is. How much did we find about OWs with just a few minutes at the computer? My H does not work in the same building as OW, but she is a work contact. We have 4 kids, a new house and I homeschool, so he can not easily pick up and find a new job. Also, he would have to leave his entire field because the company she works for is a supplier for that industry. He has taken steps to insure no contact. I did not inform OWH of the affair. I understand why this is reccomended and I do waver on what I should have done, but I could not be the one to inflict the kind of pain I feel on another person. So one layer of protection is that she knows in no uncertain terms that if she so much as dials my H's number by accident, her H will know about the A. As well as info she shared with my H during that time that her H doesn't know. Even though it wasn't presented in a positive light when H initiated NC my H made it clear that I'm rather strong willed and determined(I believed he used a less flattering term) and I will not stop short of destroying her miserable little life. H has also insured that any contact with anyone at her workplace is handled by a third party. As far as triggers I believe H when he tells me the only emotions triggered are regret, sorrow, and disgust at himself for what he's done. If these emotions were lacking, I would not believe his sincerity. Why should I? I know he's capable of lying. Very convincingly. I also see that he's different in the way he carries himself, his walk with God, the way he handles our marriage, his interactions with other people. He has very well defined boundaries now. He can't slide down the slope if he doesn't go near the hilltop. I still worry. I still doubt, but I think my reactions are based more on fear than reality. I do absolutely check up on him and he is held accountable. I don't blindly trust as I used to. I don't say my H would never do that. As long as we keep the MB principles working in our M. Along with lots of hard work. I do not believe it will happen again. If OW would fall off the planet, it would be helpful. I also fear job change at dday and now. H has given no current reason for me to have this fear. But it's a whole new pool of potential OWs. In my head I understand the dynamics and that she isn't better, but I still face the fear that he'll meet someone who is. Not because he feels that way, but because I haven't come to grips with the idea that he could throw away his family (and me) for something so absolutely worthless.
If you read the last post on my thread, it looks like H may have to change jobs, so I'll have to get over that. H's BF is working on creating a position for him. Different, but related field that does not use OWs company. That would be ideal as BF says he would never hire H if he thought he'd have another A and if it happened while working for BF, friend or not, he's out the door. Keep your fingers crossed.
Trust yourself on this one. You're eyes are open. Don't let fear of what may happen overshadow happiness in your M.
Be Jell-o!-Turk

Mel,
I see your point...just not totally. I suppose I judge the NC on how things used to be and how they are in reality now. Do I trust H 100%? NO, I do not. But, I live with a man who treated me completely differently when this OW had daily influence. Now, I feel it's different. I know what you mean by NC, and this is much preferred by me...I will change the tag line...but keep checking on me in the future...it will come back!
I believe this constitutes NC, but I understand your point. I torn about this one because I know H. I'll give this some thought today.

Turk,
Thanks for helping me sort out some stuff. I do agree with Mel and Bitter for the most part, but I also have to put SOME faith in H. I feel the vets getting ready to slam me now for not having my eyes wide open. Really, they are. He's just different now and he speaks of the difference to me. I don't know why or how our relationship deteriorated to this point, but it did and now I have to make the new second half of my marriage work better than before. I love this man and he hurt me. I may never recover from this totally and it may live on a shelf somewhere in my brain forever. But, I have to put a little faith in him about moving forward. OW does still work in the same building. But, not same dept. and there is no connection between the two. He knows where I stand on this and he knows it's imperative he find new employment. I wish it was that easy, though. He's VP level and this position with what he does is not easy to just slip into easily. Plus, we have two kids in private school and a mortgage...you know, the basic family stuff. We're trying, really we are. I just take it one day at a time. He knows I believe that every day when he goes to work I feel like he's putting another weight on my shoulder that I have to hold by myself. Our MC (who is pro-marriage), believes in NC but told H that until he found new employment it was his responsibility to come home every day and give me an accounting as to how his day was. Did he see her in the elevator? Did he see her in the hallway? Did she walk by his area of the building? Did she try to make any type of contact? He does this mostly on his own, but usually I ask prior to him getting it out.
I don't know...this is all so confusing. Sometimes I feel hopeful and then I come here and feel down again. Hmmmmm....
New day...new ideas! Good luck with new employment for H. I hope it all works out.

While you and your husband choose to keep him at the same place of employment as the OW, insecurities will be inevitable on your part. How you deal with them is up to you. As long as he is fully open with everything, I see no problem if you are OK with him staying there

Myself, I would not accept anything but NC. My wife rejected leaving her place of employment. Subsequently, I divorced her. My feeling was if she did not value or relationship enough to find alterior work, then I did not care enough to stay after the affair.

In the end, everyone is different. Every situation is different and needs are different. As long as it works for you, roll with it.

BTW, you should not feel down by coming in here. It's all different advice. Take what you like and leave the rest. At the end of the day, we are all beggars in this world trying to do the right thing. Follow the Word, your heart, and love with reckless abandon. Everthing else will fall into place.

fiori, no contact means they are not in contact, but since they work together, they are still in contact.


I would not live like this, wondering if my H saw his OW every day. That is to die a death of a thousand cuts, fiori. How can you even imagine you could recover living like this? Every day, you have to HOPE that he does not have a weak moment. You only have the word of a liar about contact, fiori.

How about this, Fiori?

My H and I are moving away in order to not even be in the SAME CITY..

He's NEVER worked with HER...

And I'm 99.9% sure there has been NO CONTACT for 4 years...

but I'm also sure, as Dr. Harley states, that my H will be ADDICTED to HER for the rest of his life...

The ADDICTION is not to HER per se but to the FEELINGS or WHATEVER that the AFFAIR created..

fiori, of course the decision is up to you and your H to continue in this situation. But what you cannot have with this set up is RECOVERY. If your goal is RECOVERY, you won't find it as long as they work together. What you will find is an on-off again affair for years. We have many ppl over the years who have learned this lesson the hard way. The surest way to set yourself up for a resumption is to have your H triggered every day when he goes to work, in a state of perpetual withdrawal.

He is going into the bar every day and staring at the BEER on the counter. He thinks about that beer all the time; it remains top of mind. Instead of focusing on recovery, that beer is always on his mind because he is TRIGGERED EVERY DAY. Eventually, a weak moment [and it will come!] will collide with opportunity and he will drink the beer.

Who will be there to stop him? NO ONE. The game you are playing is the EXACT equivalent of a chronic alcoholic going into the bar every day and "testing" his sobriety. In AA, we call that an "exercise in stupidity" because it proves how stupid we are to be playing such games with our sobriety. This is exactly how relapses happen.

Being triggered every day like this - both of you - makes recovery impossible.

So, as long as you are ok with an on-again, off-again affair and the daily fear of him going to work his lover, then you will be ok. For most people, that would not be a life they would choose.

Dr. Harley, a clinical psychologist, who has been doing this for 35 years, says this about continued contact with an affair partner:

entire article here

entire article here

Kind of OT from Fiori specifically:

Mel:

It seems hard for folks to buy the HIGHLY ADDICTIVE NATURE of the AFFAIR.

Bringing this out on a separate thread might be HELPFUL.

I've been trying to HAMMER AWAY at this a lot lately.

Agree, Mimi. One of the reasons that Dr Harley is so successful over other programs is that his background with alcoholics has trained him to understand and detect addictions. Most do not get that.

Turksmom, I shuddered when I read your words, because I have heard them so many times over the years in AA meetings. From people who had or were heading towards a relapse. It is a classic sign of someone who does not comprehend the power of his addiction.

They are the dangerous words of a WS who does not understand the power of his addiction and because of that, does not take precautions and remains vulnerable to a repeat.

This is why successfully recovered alcoholics do not hang out in bars. This is why you won't see recovered waywards here still in contact with their lovers. They ACCEPT they have no power over their addiction, and therefore, do not place themselves AT ITS MERCY. We SURRENDER by admitting the addiction is more powerful than us and removing ourselves. We set proper boundaries so that we are not unnecessarily faced with temptation. We don't tempt fate.

An addict that stays in proximity to his drug of choice has not surrendered. He is still under the illusion that he has POWER and continues to fight a battle he has already LOST. The only answer is to surrender by leaving the field of battle. An addict will ALWAYS LOSE so his choices are: surrender and leave with your life or continue to fight and LOSE your life.

I have been sober for 23 years TODAY. [LD: 4-27-85] I feel nothing but disgust and shame and horror about my drinking. But you know what? I know that if I hung out in bars and stared at a beer every day, those feelings of LONGING and ADDICTION can come right back and OVERWHELM my feelings of DISGUST and remorse. IN A HEARTBEAT. And I am TOO SCARED of a relapse to find out if that is true or not. I have seen other ppl play that game and I am not willing to take that chance. I am not willing to EVER take that risk. I have TOO MUCH TO LOSE.

If your H does not recognize this, he is VULNERABLE to a resumption.

All recovering alcoholics feel "regret, sorrow and disgust" about their drinking. But those feelings PALE in the face of the strong attraction we felt for alcohol. If we did not have those strong feelings, we would not have been alcoholics in the first place. If your H did not have those strong feelings, he would not have had an affair in the first place. THOSE FEELINGS CAN COME RIGHT BACK.

If we do not recognize this true fact and take necessary precautions, we will always be vulnerable to a repeat. The people who have relapses are the ones who foolishly believe they have power over their addiction and put themselves in precarious situations.

Please don't yell at me..(joking)
But, does all of this apply as hard core if it was an EA and not PA? Just a question, not an excuse.

And, fyi...I do not condone his working there and he is ok with finding a new job. I just wish it was as easy as it sounds. His level of employment is hard and at his age (42) there are many younger fish who are willing to work for less $$.

An affair is "hard core" whether it is physical or not. More often than not, the attraction has nothing to do with sex in the first place.


Understand. We know it is not easy. But neither is divorce. Neither is adultery. And just know that if your marriage does not recover, that is what you are facing. Recovery is impossible if there is still contact.

Adultery is as traumatic as the death of a child or a rape. Divorce is devastating to all concerned, and that is why unneccessary risks should not be taken here.