Yes you are right, Plan D is the real last resort.

I'm sorry he told you to "just be happy." That doesn't work when you are really depressed, and non-depressed folks just don't get it. There are steps you can take to improve your outlook, and I see you doing those things.

I'm sorry he's continuing to DJ. How do you remove yourself from those? Are you able to insulate yourself and say they aren't about you, they are about him? How about asking yourself if they are true; if they aren't true, then say the opposite to yourself; if they are true, admit it but say you can change these things about yourself and you are.

Would it help if you posted some recent examples of the DJs?

Jayne, I hear you, I do after the fact sort them out into

not true and
true and I can change them

but I am still angry because again, I failed to protect myself and again, there is a withdrawal that goes with that. There are a lot of pain points or sore spots for H, but I have been O&H for long enough that I believe that he is choosing to continue to respond in ways that cause me pain. I am not saying that to DJ, he says, "Nina, you have to understand that that pushes my buttons." Yes, I do, but I know that he chooses his response just as much as I do.

Here are some examples. Reading them back, I can see how this is coming from his pain. But this is why I think we need counseling, so we can communicate in ways that don't make withdrawals. A lot lately is focused on my weight, DD12's weight, and my FOO. I share with him my weight loss successes and my plan, but it still gives him a lot of anxiety.

"You can't eat that and think that you're going to lose weight." - Not true, I have spoken to my nutritionist about this. I have a meal plan, but can substitute as long as the total daily calories minus exercise stays within the limits

"Eating so late is how you got so fat." - Not true, again, we are going by total calories

"You're trying to make DD12 heavy like you." - Not true, I am supporting her in her plan she's working from her nutritionist. Before that, I was supporting her in exercise and healthy eating, with occasional treats.

"You're ridiculous to think that your mom is going to make plans with you." Not true, I accept that my mom make make plans and cancel later. I am willing to accept the consequences and not make plans with her at the times we already have family time scheduled.

"Why don't you be a real parent and help your daughter study?" Not true, I am a real parent. The true part, that DD12 needs more support in her studies, I am working on.


So what can I do to protect myself further, before it starts? I do try to think ahead of time and anticipate these things, but I don't always. I can go in a room and H is okay, and then it goes wrong anyhow. I am doing what I can to respond better and get out of the room once it starts. To be honest, I don't always respond with integrity. Sometimes, even when I say the right things, I don't always have the right tone.

I guess maybe I need to go back to that modified 180 and stay there while I work this out. I resist it because then I lose some of the good stuff that makes me happy when he gets home along with it, like asking for affection when I'd liek some.

Thanks for those examples. It's good the way you are saying what isn't true about them, and what you are doing to make things better.

How to protect yourself before it starts? That one's difficult. I don't know. It's not easy or fun living with your guard always up.


Pushing his buttons, is that referring to the listen-and-repeat technique? I remember you said that annoyed him before. I know it's a healthy communication tool, but if it's an AH for your H... then can you change the phrases you use? Or maybe if you could practice the active listening part making sure you really are listening by rephrasing it just inside your head, and verbally you could just ask questions for clarity or to continue the conversation?

If it's an AH then something needs to change, right? (I'm open to being wrong. Of course there are correct things that need to be done whether or not someone else considers them annoying.)

The situation seems to be improving, in that the DJs and AHs are better than AOs that have gone on in the past. And if you are stating boundaries and he's respecting them enough that you don't have to leave as often, that's good too.

I'm still working on the AH part of the listen and repeat. When I said, "I hear you saying..." He heard, "your perspective is wrong, you're the problem." Even when that was not my intent. I still listen and repeat, and it's still a sticking point, but I'm not going to go back to silencing myself. I am working to prevalidate, that is, emphasize that I know that there is nothing wrong with his ideas. And then to validate, that I get it how hard it is to watch someone struggle with a weight issue and not follow ideas that you think would help. And then my O&H, that this is something that I've worked out to be okay for me.

I think the AH part to him is when I'm not enthusiastic and do the things that he requests. From here I wonder if there is still too much payoff to him in the Change-back behavior. I am in over my head with this, that's why I think MC may help. We did not address this when we were in MC before, about the DJs, and I need a place where I can address it and be heard with him. Where we can make a plan and be consistent with it and excavate this from our marriage.



You're right, there is a lot to feel good about. It encourages me that we have a lot of momentum to build on, a lot of success along with the challenges. Opportunities Thanks for that, jayne

(((jayne)))

Sorry I haven't been around, I've been really busy. Just wanted to say that I think it will be a good move to keep on the idea of MC, even though he said it's torture. It's a good place to validate how very important it is to you, that you are willing to go up against his displeasure AND risk making him uncomfortable, so that there can be two people in the marriage getting what they want. Of course, you could always say "if you stop drinking today, I don't think I'll have a need for MC, but as long as you are, we need to keep going" and see what he says.

But the manipulation is very real - if you make me do this, you don't really love me, so you're a bad person - if you make me go to MC.

Other thought. I kind of cringe with the 'when you...I feel' talk myself, so I can see how that would be a trigger for him. Not that there's anything wrong with it, just that it probably instantly signals 'we're going to talk about feelings' to him. Is there any other way you can say those things? Put it in another context? Something that works for just the two of you?

Cat, thanks for popping in today, I know you've been super busy. To be honest, if he stopped drinking today, like he for the week before his surgery a while back, we STILL had issues. Of course, I'd be thrilled if he decided he was done drinking, and that change over time might well make the other issues far easier to resolve. But other folks in Alanon have a term "dry drunk" that has the same issues the person had before with the only exception being the drinking.

Because the "when you ... I feel ..." makes H cringe, too, I try to be aware of that when I speak to him. I aim to be consistent thinking that way in my own head, because it really helps me get insight in separating what is "me" from what is "not me". And what is fact from what is opinion. And like jayne said, separating what is not true from what is true. And if it is true to practice viewing that as an opportunity.

Okay, so once i thought all that through, then I approach H. Like you said, I know that language makes him cringe, so I tell him what I found, without the pattern.

The same way, with the listen and repeat, if I say, "I think you're saying/feeling/see it as" instead of "I hear you saying" somehow that doesn't agitate him.

lol, I can relate! I don't know why, but hearing 'I hear you...' just is really absurdist to me. I guess because it is so NOT how we normally talk. Sounds like you're doing all the right things.

Remind me, do you have any outside interests going on? I always find that when I have something else to dive into, I spend less time dwelling on my own stuff, and it fortifies me.

Cat, I meant to ask you, why do those words make you cringe? I ask H, and he says it's because he thinks it shows I'm letting someone else tell me what to think. I tried to explain that I try things, and then see if they are honest for me or not, and to me, that does feel honest and clear. But he still says I'm brainwashed.

I do have some outside interests. I'm a group person, so group activities like Curves, Bible study, and Alanon are a good fit for me. I also have some solitary activities, walking on the treadmill and reading. I also spend time with family and friends.

It isn't my intent to dwell on the bad stuff, not at all. I identify it because it gives me a pit in my stomach that makes me feel bad every time it happens. I want to resolve these things so they don't keep making withdrawals, so that we can move forward doing things we like instead.

Yeah, I can see how hearing "I hear you say..." could sound like, "Well, what I hear is that you're saying this thing, but it's actually this other thing."

I'm trying to think of an example that might illustrate how it could come off negatively:

"I *hear* you say you'll mow the lawn, but you and I both know that you're gonna put it off again."

"I *hear* you say you're gonna stop spending so much money, but you and I both know that'll never happen."

I know that isn't how you mean it. But for some reason, to me the words "I hear you saying..." sounds a lot more like that than "I think you're saying..."

Maybe it's because "hearing" could be thought of as just the sound hitting your eardrums...? "I hear the sounds you're making, but I know it isn't what you're really intending." So it could be acknowledging the sounds while DJing the intent. Not that that's what you mean, but I could see it seeming like that.

Could you come up with a variety of alternative phrases, so it doesn't seem contrived to H? Let's see... Like MC told us to make sure we were on the same page when we agreed to something. For example we'd agree to take the kids swimming but we each had different definitions of what that meant.

So, something that fits more easily into my conversation style is: (Say, right after we agree to take the kids swimming) "Wait, hold on, when you say "swimming" do you mean wearing swim trunks and taking off your shirt and taking the kids in over their heads, or do you mean wading in the part that isn't over their heads?"

So it's verifying the meaning without "that yucky emotional mumbo jumbo" (not my judgment but maybe what H is thinking). It prolly comes off slightly as a DJ (it's hard to keep out of my voice the fact that I disapprove of not actually going into the water with the kids, but I try) but in this case I think that's better if the other way is an AH. Maybe.

They make me cringe because they don't sound real. No one talks like that in real life unless they're getting ready to 'get serious.' They remind me of my H saying "Let me ask you something..." - I know that that is how he prefaces a DJ. I'm not saying you do that, just that that might be the feeling he's getting. Like "uh oh, here it comes."

Oh my goodness, jayne, I see how that statement would make someone cringe if it's always followed by a DJ! Around here, "I hear ya!" is a common saying.

I get how if "I hear you saying" is always followed by this new pattern, why there would be resistance and change-back behavior around that. Because before, I used to get defensive or mad instead of planning to resolve it. Then, our focus switched to my inapporpriate yelling or upset, and we lost the original issue at hand. I felt so stuck. So this, where I believe that we can resolve these issues, can prompt some change-back response.

I'm really looking forward to this weekend. There are a lot of things going on, probably faster than I can process them, but they're all things that I've already been processing before, and today I'm feeling patience with the process.

We have some good RC and family time planned this weekend, going to a local outdoor festival. Usually, this opportunity has a dark cloud for me because H is accustomed to spending the day drinking. When he does, I distance myself. A quiet, friendly distance, not an angry condemning one. Nowadays often he doesn't drink, or doesn't drink much, and we have a good time together all of us. But this time, H is on antibiotics, so I know ahead of time he won't be drinking, and it feels very freeing to me, like a weight off of me. It shows me how much I'm still letting his choices, and my choice to hang around even when I'm not comfortable with his choices, steal my joy, and I'm trying to think through whether that is healthy or not. I'm thinking maybe it would be more honest to just not participate at those times.

Also, I'm not sure why I get a pit in my stomach and have to struggle to get to the friendly silence. I know that it's not necessary to know the "why" in order to pick more honest behavior, but I still would like to understand it. Wow, I'm spend a lot of focus processing things that are NOT happening But just talikg this out helps me get back to today. I believe the answers will become clear when I'm ready for them. And I am really excited about this weekend.

That sounds great. Hope you have a lot of fun. I so understand about the tension.

As for not drinking as much, do you think it's a result of your continued effort to both improve yourself and improve your relationship with him? I mean in terms of trying to push for healthy interactions? It's possible that he really doesn't want to drink so much, and if you could show him a way out of that, he would grab your hand and climb out. It kind of sounds like that.

Cat, i do like to think that H drinks less because we are having more fun now doing things that we all enjoy that he wouldn't want to drink himself into a long nap or going to bed early so often. When he drinks now, it is so much less than when I first got here. Like he'll have just a couple and go to bed at regular time instead of going to bed early on a date night.

I've got to admit that I can so relate to just wanting to sleep when I was depressed. Every now and then I would take a few benadryl to make me sleepy because I wasn't tired but just wanted to go to bed. Especially "at that time of the month." So maybe I'm just projecting and it was something else altogether. But I like thinking that we're making a life that we really enjoy.

Both of us really do make an effort to stay aware and keep our interactions pleasant. We both have times that we slip, but we both usually apologize and identify what happened so we can do better. Thanks, cat, for reminding me of that. I can get so lost in frustration sometimes that I forget how far we've come together already.

Also, H is okay with me finding an MC now. I'm going to ask my IC for a recommendation Monday. H knows that I am looking for someone who will use a proven plan with us, MB or Imago, which I think has the same focus, to build compatibility with POJA and reigniting the love by meeting each other's top ENs.

I forget that sometimes my H says no to something as an initial rection, not that he's really against it. I'm going to make sure that we make this something that we can both be enthusiastic about.

A little update. I found an Imago therapist in my area who takes our insurance, and H is on board with going to see her. I'm really excited.

Just not sure how much progress we're going to get done, because the plan for today (just for today, right ;)) is for H and DD12 to go out to SoCal mid-June to late July so H can see if he can find work out there. I feel a lot less stressed out about it this year than I did last year, because even though we had a huge drop in standard of living, it was okay; we could still get a decent education for the kids there. H is very lucky that I'm not a big FS person, because a lot of people wouldn't be reluctant to go from a big house on a lake to a two bedroom apartment in a run-down neighborhood.Including the kids LOL. But they had fun there. I have no idea why it's so crowded there; I guess a lot of people feel the way my H does, too.

For the time being, I have a week of vacation so I can meet up with them this summer, but I'll be here working for the most part.

Are you enthusiastic about H and DD going out there this summer?

I ask, because I just had a nudge.

See, I saw your thread on the forum list, and for some unknown reason, I clicked on the title instead of your last post.

I usually click on the last post, of course, and in that mindset, I began reading your first post to this thread.

Wow. I almost clicked the reply button and said, "What's all this SoCal stuff again! You've been there, done that!" I was so confused. Now it's two years later...weird for me, until I saw a post further down on the thread that I made...and read "5/20/06" as right now...and I knew I hadn't posted to you recently!

What an experience...would you do it, too? Read the first page of your thread...

Do it for me. So I don't feel alone in my blunder, 'k?

LA

LA, I'm so glad that you're here. I went from feeling content to feeling flustered in a few hours. Oh, man, as if I hit smack into the "SoCal" post on the spiral staircase. We aren't cause control, or cure, but the pattern when H travelled before was that he drank a lot more when he's away, and I'm sending our daughter with him? I called my sponsor, and I could tell she was struggling not to give advice. She asked me to consider whether Adult Children are less protective of their kids. That listen and repeat, she was hearing the fear in my voice. I've sent DD12 away with H before, too.

oh, man, and I'm swirling again. It felt SO good to hear H really happy today. Then he got home, and after dinner we went fo a walk with the kids. I said something like, remember, we haven't decided yet, i still have some concerns I want to discuss with you at another time. And he said, he already told his company he was going to start working remotely from SoCal mid-June, that it's too late. I listened and repeated that I understand that he already told them that, but they would understand if he decided to keep working from here instead. Then I saw the control, the subtle pressure, coming out.

I got overwhelmed, and went in my room to get out my Step 4 inventory book, thinking some introspection may help since the walk hadn't. The topics were Justification and after that Control. DD7 came up, and I got her ready for bed, and then realized that for the first time I missed my IC appointment! I called him and asked if I could reschedule, but he's booked this week.

Then, like you suggested, I went and smacked right into that staircase post again. I saw where I wasn't owning my choices, not taking the responsibility I need to of the kids. I can do this.

Enthusiastic? Not yet. I'll get back in the game and see if we can get there.

Thanks, LA, for your presence!

And the IC doesn't think it's a good idea for me and the kids to move. Our marriage has been more stable the time I've been there since last year, but he's known me and my FOO for years, and knows of several times that H has said he's leaving.

EO,

I'm always reading...so I'm here...and very, very sneaky.



Okay...you went from feeling content (what belief(s) was that contentment coming from? To flustered...trace that feeling, too.

Still sounds to me like you fear sharing with your H when you feel fearful, aren't enthusiastic...had an idea...do you share often when you aren't feeling fearful? When you are feeling connected, relaxed, safe?

Hmmm.

Like alcohol, your H's desire for SoCal is his...and you know it isn't about you. You don't make him drink, don't deprive him of living in SoCal (you guys did that and couldn't make it financially)--his choices are his own.

I think you fear him using your thoughts/beliefs/choices as justifications for his own. Could you fear that the most? I'm wondering...could just be my own fear, ya know.



What about a refresher for us on his stuff...about why he still dreams of SoCal...in details. Maybe there is a perpetual symbolism...or just not being where he is...that's at work. Knowing wont' change it...only understand it.

Wanted to throw in about not asking for a hug so you don't get rejected...walking in DJs there, toots. I know you know.

Affection is a top EN? Then be affectionate yourself with acute awareness...hear affection in your voice, watch it in your hands, write it down in notes, feel it acts of service and textures...be aware of all the ways you are receiving and giving affection...do not focus on the one area you aren't getting it.

Then stand in reality...because you are getting it in some ways and not others...get the whole of it. Find out where you aren't giving it, too. Balance...not perfection, 'k?

Sometimes we gotta drench ourselves in what is...to re-center ourselves. And no, I don't do this consistently or well myself. Usually only notice I've off-center, focused on lack again, when I begin to feel resentful, entitled, justified...those old friends rise up again in me, my villagers, for a cup of tea...and stay for a long afternoon.



I believe I would long for Colorado in the same way your H yearns for SoCal, if I didn't live here. We lived away for 12 years...and I told myself all the reasons it was okay...and we did live...raised our children...and my H would long for Colorado aloud...and I would soothe with why it was okay not to be there...to change his stuff. Ack. Parts of our family were in Colorado...none where we lived when away. That matters, I think. So I don't know about your H...I just know that his yearnings are his, coming from him, his beliefs...and it's only up to you to know as much as he knows of his stuff...not soothe, change or fix.

And you already know that, too. Knowing your own stuff is a full-time job.



LA

LA, about the soothing your H into staying away from Colorado, that's his choice to own. Get that off of your shoulders

I felt okay, because I don't think it is meant to work out for him out there anyhow, and then maybe he'd stop going on about that. And then it wouldn't be resentment against me.

Then I felt flustered, because I've got a responsibility to my kids. Until my sponsor questioned me, it didn't occur to me that I was putting DD12 into a potentially bad situation. I shocked myself with that denial.

So I went from standing up for my marriage to hiding in denial. I believe my payoff is to avoid the pain of his disappointment in me. But that's not anything I can control.

He's not enthusiastic about the counseling. We met at lunch, and in a deja vu, he told me how he's had enough of me not being happy. I had thought out ahead of time what I would say, and I said that I am happy, but that the way that we have been willing to gain at the other's expense is not what I want for our marriage. I kept it neutral and didn't bring in examples, because I wanted to keep focused on the positive, what I believe we can create. I shared my hope about creating a marriage where we do things that make us both happy.

Thanks for the reminder that his desire to leave town isn't about getting away from me. I've been reminding myself of that, too. What I fear is revenge behavior if I'm not supportive of this.

About the affection, yes, there is affection in my life, in our marriage. He's been more affactionate lately, and I appreciate that. I know that it's a gift.

Thanks for being here, LA.

A refresher on why he wants to move out there. "I don't know why, I just do. People are so nasty here, and we've got to get away from your family. And DD12 and DD7 got signed with top agencies out there, which most kids don't get."