Hi, ss -

Thanks for getting back to me. Big stuff happening at home with my sister this last week - major family melt-down, but first I'll reply as best I can to you...

I sometimes wonder how you are, but I still say that you need to do what is best for LIR. If rest if what you need most, then you ought to try to get it. I do know you care. Actually, this is one of the big things I wonder about. I mean, it's easy to see you care, and that you have tried. I don't understand why your H is not grateful, and humble, and willing to thank you for that by trying himself.

I have been feeling really tired, sometimes light-headed - my blood test came back showing that I have small red blood cells - why this should be they haven't said, but I've just had an iron screen done and will get the tests back next week. They tested my thyroid levels and said they were "normal" - I'm not sure I believe that because a lot of what I've read says that you can have low thyroid levels for years without it showing up on the standard blood test. My mom had low thyroid and it has been suggested to my niece that she get her thyroid checked. I have a lot of the symptoms of low thyroid and have had for years, but have had it checked 2-3 times and they always say its normal. So anyway....maybe that will be the answer...fingers crossed....

As to H, I don't know why he doesn't respond either....like I keep saying, he is on his own planet....or....he is still in contact with OW. Most probably both. On Ash Wednesday, he left his wallet in one of the cars. I had the only key so he called me at work, frustrated, and asked if I could rescue it. Then he changed his mind. I worked it out so I could leave work, go home and rescue it, because I didn't want our car to be broken into. I went home, got it, found it had £200 in it, and (yes, I went through his wallet) also a Xmas gift card from the same OW (the one in Germany) - saying "Darling, I would love to serve you some sweets - and hope you enjoy them..." B. (I still don't know who this woman is). I think this sweet thing is her invitation to sex - as she said something similar in the other note, and I found a small bag of German chocolates tied with a red ribbon in his dresser once when he came back from Germany in 2006. The truth is, H lives here in our home, sleeps in his own room, has dinner with us every night, but I know nothing about "the rest of his life" - he could easily be having affairs with anyone really and I wouldn't know - because he is like that - what I have realized is that ANY spouse could do this - you could sleep in the same bed with a man for years and he could be having a long-term affair and you wouldn't know it, other than your spouse seemed a little irritable and distant sometimes, which you put down to tiredness. Some people are capable of great feats of deception. Well, anyway, I took the card out of his wallet and kept it. I haven't told him. He hasn't asked me about it. Two days later, though, we caught YS lying to us about small things while he was getting ready for school. After he went to school, I turned to H and said "I know this might sound harsh, but how can you expect YS not to lie when he sees you lying?" H got mad and said he didn't lie. I said that he often refused to tell me where he was going when I asked him - I told him that when he went out the door, the boys just rolled their eyes. I said didn't he think they could have figured out what was happening between us by now, because they had....he said it wasn't his fault our marriage had broken down. I said cheating was a good reason for a marriage to break down, so yes, he did have to take the blame for that. He shouted "and what about your explosions?!" and walked out, slamming the door. I let it go, but I wrote him a letter which I gave to him later that day. I think it was a good letter. He hasn't responded to it at all. He is just the same as he always is and its as if none of that ever happened. That's the way H is.

In my letter, I basically said that I understood that he felt angry that I had accused him of being at fault for the breakdown of our marriage. But, I said, he obviously felt that the way I had expressed my anger in the past justified him having affairs. I said that I do not have an "anger problem" - I said that in the past I had been upset and reacting to his behaviour, which I found bewildering and frightening. I said that although I had expressed my anger negatively in the past, I had done a lot of work in the past six years to deal with my own problems, that I had sought help for us both many times and had always held out my hand to him, and still did. I said his response had always been to refuse the hand offered to him and choose to continue his secret relationships with other women, using my anger as justification. For this reason, he was responsible for not choosing to work on healing our marriage. I told him I was appealing him to be honest, to be open and to tell the truth.

Well, no response so far. But events at home have eclipsed this at the moment.

On Monday, my sister decided to try to talk to my Dad about the issue she needs to confront him about. Now, we are never able to talk to my Dad without his wife present - remember, she is the OW who put us all through ****** as kids - so....she was there in the background....my sister got only so far into the conversation when my SM started screaming, grabbed the phone and started screaming abuse down the phone at my sister. My Dad managed to get the phone back, stayed calm and said to my sister to put the phone down - he would talk to her later. I talked to my sister about 2 hours after this - she was a little upset, but not surprised that happened (my SM is nuts). I said I would call my Dad and see where I could get with him. When my Dad answered, he sounded calm and pleasant - he sounded like he really wanted to talk and get this cleared up - I also only got so far in the conversation when suddenly my SM started screaming abuse, grabbed the phone and then, honestly, no kidding, ROARED uncontrollable personal abuse at me for a full 20 minutes. At one point, my dad managed to get the phone back and said to me "Just hang up"....but I didn't, I let her go on and on.....at one point, I took the phone downstairs, tapped my H on the shoulder where he was sitting watching TV with the boys and pulled him into the other room to listen.....even he was shocked.....finally I took it back upstairs, tried to tell my dad I loved him, but...it was like someone pouring hot, scalding vomit through the phone - she abused every person in our extended family - said that everyone in the family had abused her, my "ugly sister", my brother, my mother, my aunts and uncles - she said she never wanted to hear my ugly voice again, never wanted to hear my ugly voice on her answer machine again, that I would never see my father again, never see his home again, that she would kill us all if we dared to set foot on her land, that she was going to take him away from all of us, she called on God for retribution for the terrible suffering she had had all of her life at our hands, she abused my sister's children, said we were all insane, said that everyone in our family was crazy (all of her brothers and sisters are crazy), said we were stupid to have children that she had aborted all her children because she didn't want to have all of our insane genes, but we were insane enough to have them....I'm ashamed to say that when she started in on my children, I just said "(SM) F*** you." and hung up. Haven't heard from my Dad.

My sister and I are sticking together. Both of us feel the same. Relieved and liberated. I finally feel a sense of freedom. All of my life, I have been pressured into having a relationship with this woman, with my Dad telling me how much she really cares about me, and yes, she is a little nuts, but asking us to be "understanding". I feel like all of my life, I have been walking a tightrope, trying to avoid this event, but it has finally happened. And it is a blessing. She finally showed what she was made of to him. My sister and I always figured that if my Dad got ill, we would not be called to his bedside, and that as soon as he was dead, that would be it. She would reveal herself. But thankfully, she has now done it in front of him. She showed her real self, and her real feelings of hatred for us, the hatred she has always had for us, which we have always sensed, but which he would not admit.

The thing is, I'm not really mad at her. I'm amazed that someone can hate so much. Listening to her was like listening to a Hitler rant. I let her go on because I was amazed at what she was saying - amazed that she could be so personally abusive to someone she has professed to love so much - it was only when she started abusing me for having children and abusing my children that I felt angry. Otherwise, I just felt....amazed. I am sad for my Dad, but my sister and I still need to talk to him to sort this thing out, which basically has to do with his drinking, and the kinds of things he does when he drinks. Clearly my SM is sick - not just angry and co-dependent, but crazy sick, and dangerous sick - and she always has been. She is incredibly manipulative. I can now understand that my Mom was genuinely afraid of her - after all, this is the woman who took me into the shower with her when I was 9 and told me she'd had a dream the night before about my mother chasing her around the kitchen with a huge knife. (My dad had taken us to a beach party with his friends and we had come back to change out of our swimsuits and wash the sand off - my SM knew I would go home and tell my mother this...that's how my mom found out about my dad's affair). So deep down, I have been afraid of this woman all my life. I am sorry for my Dad, but.....I feel released from the burden of ever having to have anything to do with this woman for the rest of my life.

My sister and I have been praying for the best possible outcome for everyone involved - if this happened, I don't think it was a mistake. It may take my Dad a while to call, I might call him, I might write to his neighbor and ask his neighbor to hand-deliver a letter. I'm not sure yet. But I don't think this is the end of my relationship with my Dad. If it is, I will be sad, but I am not sorry that my SM showed her true colours at last.




I have known very few people who can identify what is going on as well as you can, and follow through with a solution. You are a good example to the rest of us. I think all I did was encourage you to verbalize what was already in your mind. You did the heavy work. Your comments are very kind though, and thank you.

I think you have helped me a great deal, ss. I have a tendency to analyze things too much - partly it is my way of coping, and partly, I guess I do have some instinct into how people work - the thing which has happened with my SM is a good thing because it brings out into the open the truth about a situation I have had to deal with all my life - trying to deal with someone in your life who really wishes you ill, but who hides it very successfully. I have been up against that all my life. I think my SM really does hate me, not just me, she hated all of us, my father's children, just BECAUSE of who we were - she hated us because we stood between her and him, because we got in her way, because we tied him to our mother, because we took money away from her, but mostly because he loved us...she hated us because he loved us, and because we were there first. I have had to deal with that all my life and it has given me a sixth sense about people and their hidden emotions. But because I have had to submit to having a relationship with her in order to have a relationship with my father, I have been very vulnerable to abuse. I will tolerate almost anything when I really shouldn't. She is the reason why I am vulnerable to abuse. So I am GLAD she finally openly abused me in front of him. It brought it out into the open and showed him her hatred. And I can finally say no to it because it has been shown to be what it really is instead of masquerading as love. I feel at peace with it all now. I don't have any desire to retaliate at all. I am even praying for her deliverance from evil. You have been a good guide through a very difficult time in my life, helping me to follow what the signposts of what is good, and trusting that awareness in myself. For that, I am very grateful.


My W and I continue to pray for you.
Does walking help, or make it worse?
What is most comfortable, sitting, standing, lying down, or walking? Or, does it change?

Thank you and your wife for your prayers. Very much. Walking actually seems to help. Sitting is worst, lying down not much better, standing can also be bad. It does change - it is sometimes worse than others. My uncle, who was an anaesthetist, thinks the pain clinic may be able to help - he said it sounds like it could be "neurological" - I wonder what that means....

One of the reasons I asked about the letter (the one FIL suggested) is that I see over and over on Mb......... folks who say "I made it VERY CLEAR to them ........" and then when we hear the other side, we hear "I had no idea they really felt that way, I thought......."

I have spent time counseling people in their marriages, and over, and over, I see people who are not on the same page. One wishes they could repair the marriage, and the other believes that their spouse wants out, and has already made a decision. Of course, being in front of me makes a difference too, but I wonder what your H thinks.

Again, I am not trying to tell you anything really, but wondering in print, as I often do.

I was intrigued by this, and I'm taking it on board. I wrote stuff in that letter I mentioned earlier about his feelings....it was basically a "John Gray" love letter, but I tried to write things that showed I was willing to understand things from his point of view, hoping he would come forward with something...but....nothing.....however, I am filing this in my own "brain file" - this is the kind of thing you are really helpful to me with - the stuff I don't pick up on myself because I haven't looked at it that way, or am too stressed to remember....I think I have also reached the point where I feel I can accept that if he sees things from his POV and he feels he can't go any further with me, I can accept that and go on with my life. Of course, I might feel he is wrong, but I don't feel I have to convince him that I am the one who is right. -)

(what goes through my head over and over is "why doesn't He come to her, and ask her for another chance?")
Probably because he is still having an affair. Or a different one.

I would just like to say - I do realize that this is a marriage-building forum and I came here in the hopes of rebuilding my marriage when I found out my H was having EAs and now he has had a PA. I am also a child of divorce and have had to deal with my father's OW all my life. I know that most people would choose not to handle my situation the way that I have. Most people would be divorced by now and they would feel it was better for the children to be divorced. I am not convinced of that yet. And the reason for that is because of what I just talked about above - my father's OW. I could get divorced, and then my H would be free to have his other relationship(s) openly, and there would be no way to avoid my children coming into contact with them. I feel a very strong determination not to let my children suffer what I went through, and not to have to go through what I went through. If I were to divorce him, my H's OW (whoever she might be) would have a free rein to play with my children's minds however she wanted. You do not know how that can play out. People live in a fantasy world when they think divorce is going to be the answer to their problems. My H and I suffer in our R with each other, but I do know that my H loves his children, and he trusts them with me, so it is better for them to be safe with us, as best as we can make it. It is a choice of the lesser of two evils at the moment. My H is a wayward spouse - he's not honest. But any woman who would suck my H into a R with her is not safe to be around my kids. That's why I stay married - to try to keep them safe with me. If we divorce, they could go to him, or end up spending time with him and his OW, which could be a worse thing for them than what we have now.

Well, I have to go now.....thank you again for your kindness and support. I see my counselor in a couple of days, so don't worry about me.....

Will be in touch soon.

God bless,
LIR

I brought up this page, intending to do a longer post..... but I was reminded of a deadline, and I need to go.

Not sure if I'll get back today.

- SS

From your post of Feb 5th - I never did finish commenting.

Our priest last week said something along the lines that the victory over sin is not something that is fought and won once and for all, the victory is in the everyday battle which lasts a lifetime, the victory is in fighting that battle over the course of your whole life to the very end. It's not the victory which is the thing, it is fighting the battle which IS the victory, in the end.

So true -
I found a poem you may enjoy. Not exactly the same thing, but along those lines.

Gethsemane
In golden youth when seems the earth
A Summer-land of singing mirth,
When souls are glad and hearts are light,
And not a shadow lurks in sight,

We do not know it, but there lies
Somewhere veiled under evening skies
A garden which we all must see—
The garden of Gethsemane.

With joyous steps we go our ways,
Love lends a halo to our days;
Light sorrows sail like clouds afar,
We laugh, and say how strong we are.

We hurry on; and hurrying, go
Close to the border-land of woe,
That waits for you, and waits for me—
Forever waits Gethsemane.

Down shadowy lanes, across strange streams,
Bridged over by our broken dreams;
Behind the misty caps of years,
Beyond the great salt fount of tears,

The garden lies. Strive as you may,
You cannot miss it in your way.
All paths that have been, or shall be,
Pass somewhere through Gethsemane.

All those who journey, soon or late,
Must pass within the garden’s gate;
Must kneel alone in darkness there,
And battle with some fierce despair.

God pity those who can not say,
“Not mine but thine,” who only pray,
“Let this cup pass,” and cannot see
The purpose in Gethsemane.

[Maurine and Other Poems (Chicago: W. B. Conkey, 1888), p. 135]

There is a purpose in these things that happen to us. We do not labor in vain.

I have been feeling really tired, sometimes light-headed - my blood test came back showing that I have small red blood cells - why this should be they haven't said, but I've just had an iron screen done and will get the tests back next week. They tested my thyroid levels and said they were "normal" - I'm not sure I believe that because a lot of what I've read says that you can have low thyroid levels for years without it showing up on the standard blood test. My mom had low thyroid and it has been suggested to my niece that she get her thyroid checked. I have a lot of the symptoms of low thyroid and have had for years, but have had it checked 2-3 times and they always say its normal. So anyway....maybe that will be the answer...fingers crossed....

Would like to know if you have learned anything else about your health.

I read with interest the comments you made about your H, and what you have discovered. You leave out what your feelings were....... I have thought about that. Realize that we catch glimpses, and we feel (at least in part) the pain you must have had over the years. I don't know if his actions have so seared your feelings that it doesn't affect you as much now, but I would guess it still hurts. I can't express in words the sorrow I feel. For you, that you have to live with this, and for him, that he will loose so much if he does not change.

In my letter, I basically said that I understood that he felt angry that I had accused him of being at fault for the breakdown of our marriage. But, I said, he obviously felt that the way I had expressed my anger in the past justified him having affairs. I said that I do not have an "anger problem" - I said that in the past I had been upset and reacting to his behaviour, which I found bewildering and frightening.

I have been thinking about anger for more than a few years now. I notice that Jesus was not angry for himself, only for others.
For his fathers house, when he drove the money changers out. For innocent people who were harmed by those who knew better.

I can't think of when he was ever angry over what was done to him personally.

I'm just sharing my thoughts, and I am still thinking about this one. I know you have been working on your reactions, and I believe you have come a long way with this, but I am not there when you two converse <SS smiles>

When I say I am still thinking about it.......... I have had an anger problem, and it was one of the reasons my W was having a hard time loving me. I am thinking, and learning, and hopefully improving, and I notice she is happy to see me when I get home from work now days.

Your H is not responding, but it appears to be in him, not you. It is difficult to think suggestions these days. I so wish your marriage (and your hearts) could be healed.

I see I must go....... but I'll be back when I can.

May you be able to find joy in the journey. I wish I had time to encourage you more........ after all the things that have happened.

Remember that people pray for you.

SS

Hello ss -

Thank you for the poem. Yes, it's a good one - says it all so well.

You asked about my health. Just in the last few days, I finally have some improvement! I went to the doctor again this week. This time I went to a GP in our practice who my friend told me is an anaesthetist - I figured he would have a better understanding of nerves. He was really good - he said that he thought from what I was describing, that the pain I am feeling is "neuropathic" and is caused by damaged nerves (probably damaged in childbirth, but only now showing up - actually it did hurt like this after the birth of YS2). He said the Pain Clinic to which I have been referred, and which I will have my first appt in March, will probably be able to help me. But he said there were other things they could try before then, and he put me on a very low dose of a medication called Amitryptiline. This is tricyclic anti-depressant, but in the very low dose he is giving me, it doesn't have that effect. It works!! I am so happy. For the last few days, my pain has been gone. Actually I can still feel sensations there, like there is something amiss, but it's like someone has injected a massive anaesthetic there so I don't feel the pain anymore. I take it at night because it makes me sleepy, so I have now had a few nights of really good sleep, which is starting to make a difference. People say I am looking better. The doctor said the light-headedness I was feeling was sheer exhaustion, from 18 months of being in pain and not sleeping well. Like it says in the Bible "keep knocking" until you get what you are asking for, in this case, for me, an accurate diagnosis and treatment. I feel better.-) Big load off my mind. Thank you for praying for me all this time.

On the home front with Dad - my Dad finally called me two days ago and I was able to have a good talk with him, explain the situation and move forward with reconciliation (with him). He has not been able to call me until then because of my SM, who does not leave him alone for one minute, so that he can't call us. I know people will say, what's wrong with him that he lets her have that power over him, that he can always use that as an excuse. Well, my Dad lives in the woods in a 3 room wooden cabin with no indoor toilet facilities, an outside bathtub, and only enough electricity to run one lightbulb and the phone line. It's not possible for him to have a private phone conversation in these Ma and Pa Kettle conditions with a raging madwoman in the next room who barges in and grabs the phone away from him. He would have to physically assault her in order to regain control, and that he won't do. He has had to wait for the moment when she leaves him alone, which would also coincide with our differing time zones, in order to call me. What's happened here is that my SM has been "outed" in her hidden antipathy and jealousy for us, his children. Although I realize this makes life difficult for him, for us it is a blessing - the truth always seems easier to cope with. My counselor said she has thought about this a lot and says that 41 years (the length of time my SM has been in my life) is a long time to have to deal with someone like this. Obviously it would have an effect. It is probably why I am so analytical - my brain tries desperately to figure out what other people's real motives are, trying to evaluate their behaviour. As a child, my feelings were, to some degree, invalidated - I was not allowed to say I didn't want to see her or have a relationship with her. Oh, it's a long story....it would make a good novel, if only I had the time, courage and talent to write it. I sometimes think that would be the most healthy way to deal with myself - to fictionalize things and produce some kind of "work of art" - that would get it out of my system in a good way, not in a bad way.

Anyhoo, I am at least glad to be in communication with my Dad again. My sister wants reconciliation, too, so I think things look hopeful on this. As to my SM, I'm not concerned about her - I'm not worrying about her feelings or what will become of her. I am just praying for her. I don't want to be sucked into a relationship with her, though.

My H - well. Yes, you are right. It still hurts. I can't forget the hopes and dreams I had and the commitment I gave to marriage. My children are a flesh and blood reminder of the love I felt for my H - I would not have had them if I had not loved him enough to accept the commitment of marriage and all that went with it, which is what my H asked of me. I can't understand why my H has abandoned me. It's like the man I thought I was marrying does not really exist. I really don't know. I try to get along with him on a day to day level, but even that is hard sometimes - like yesterday, he seemed to have got up on the wrong side of the bed - everyone noticed it. Today he is better. When these things happen, I sometimes wonder if it is because something is going wrong with the OW - he is angry about something to do with his affair-relationship. Or he is frustrated because he is not getting any sex. This is when I start to question whether or not I am doing the right thing by staying. Because it can't be right that we, his family, should feel the effects of his frustration with an affair-relationship. The only way I have of not accepting his affair is to not sleep with him. Or I could file for a legal separation and force him out of the house, which would spark a legal confrontation between us which would be very costly and be horribly painful for our children. I have suggested to my H that he move and he refuses - says he can't afford it - (I know he can't). I don't think anyone's best interests would be served by making my H homeless. I am watching as one of my son's school friends' situation deteriorates - the wife D her H because of domestic abuse, H remarried in 6 months, their 2 boys have really struggled, with one getting into drugs and being kicked out of school - now living with grandparents - the younger boy has now turned on his mother and has decided to go live with his father, where he thinks everything will be hunkydory. I see this all the time - parents split up, and boys in particular are torn between father and mother. No matter how "bad" ad dad is, boys still a lot of times need to be with their father. I just don't think it would be all OK if we split up. This is a slow process for me and I'm working through it with my counselor. She doesn't advise me to do anything different right now. All I can say is that I once told my H that when the Devil goes after you, he throws something in your way that you think is what you really need to make you happy, the only trouble being that you will have to hurt everyone you really love and betray everything you ever said you believed in, in order to have it. My H has done that - gone for what he thought he really needed to be happy - affairs. To me, he is a changed man. I don't know how to help him come back. I don't really know what drives him or who he is anymore. All I can do is pray for him, which I continue to do.

I have to go now, but thanks for your prayers and thoughts. The anger problem thing is something we could talk about later, maybe....

All the best,
LIR

I feel sorry and sad for you with your situation with your WH. I wish you could really talk to him or somehow get through his fog. I can't help but think he'll have some deep regrets someday for the years he's wasted on OW...and the pain he's put you through.

It's good that your Dad called you and you were able to work things out with your relationship with him.

Thank you for your kind thoughts, Trix.

I don't know about my H. Maybe he was always like this - narcissistic, and I just didn't see it. My sister says she thinks he has always been like this, and the truth is all my family told me not to marry him. It's really hard to say. I've read a lot about Narcissistic Personality Disorder and it's possible he's that type - he is certainly very self-centered in a strange kind of way - I always put it down to his "creative" personality. But it could also be that I have retreated from him so far, because I have been so hurt, that I just don't relate to him anymore. I was a very loyal wife. I have supported him through a number of serious conflicts he has had with other people. That's one of the reasons I feel so betrayed. I still have not had an affair of my own (not that I think I am entitled to one - in fact, I think MB has probably helped me to see that I am NOT entitled to one, no matter how alone I feel - having an affair of my own would just make things so much worse and give him all the ammunition he would need to kick ME out, keep the house and keep the boys - so I'm not about to risk that.) I think I am just trying to wait until the boys are older to see how things turn out. I don't intend to leave this marriage with nothing.

I read a terrible article a few weeks ago in the Daily Mail (UK) about a woman who discovered that her H (who was an RE teacher - Religious Education - at a secondary school) was having an EA with one of his 16 yr old pupils. Her story reads like one of the threads from MB, but she didn't have the advice to help her keep her cool. After months of him hiding the affair and her trying first to protect him, then to expose him (the school let him go but took no action against him, which I cannot understand, as he can be prosecuted under the law), she finally lost it and left the family home. She took her 8-yr old son with her, but her 14-yr old son was torn and decided to stay with his Dad. Within 2 weeks, the 16-yr old pupil (who had now left school) moved in to her home and is having sex with her H, while her son is in the next room - her son is a pupil at the same school. He is freaked out by it but won't come live with his mom because he doesn't want to leave the only home he has ever known. The girl's parents are frantic, but apparently no-one in authority is willing to do anything about it. They can't prove it started before she was 16, and he was not a teacher at the school when their affair turned physical. So she is technically "of age", and there is nothing anyone can do about it. I think the guy is a child molester and there must be some way to prosecute him. But it just shows you the damage that can be done if you lose it and leave the marital home when your H is having an affair. This woman is now homeless (living with her parents) and is racking up huge lawyers fees trying to claim what is rightfully hers, while her son is suffering untold psychological damage by living in the same house with his monster father.

Well - my H isn't after some 16 year old - I've seen the OW picture and she is definitely NOT 16 - more like 40 - I don't know what he sees in her - her nose is even bigger than mine!LOL I think it's just that she hardly knows him and so she thinks he's God in a suit living with some hag of a wife...and so she pushes all the right buttons for him....

I did write my H a letter after I found the card from her in his wallet on 12 Feb. I've been thinking of posting it here because I've been thinking about continuing to write him - at least then I would say what I wanted to say to him, even if he never replied.

I haven't heard any more from my Dad. I feel sad for him, but I know that he will call when he can. My Dad is a great example for WS everywhere - I can't think of any worse punishment than what he has received, which is to spend the rest of his life with the OW. I have to say that catperson's SM sounds worse, though - I've been reading Pablo58's thread and trying to help him where I think I can.

How are you? I hope you are well these days. Thank you for coming in to say hi. I'm grateful for all comments and it's good to hear from you.

Take care,
LIR

Hi Trix !! Hope you are well, and happy.

Hi LIR !!
I wish the same for you - sooner, not later.

So often I wish I had more time to comment. It is difficult to believe the things your SM will do. I know about people like this in theory, but it is always a shock to actually meet one face to face.
I was tempted to say that "I don't know how you do it." But, really, I do. You are a daughter of God who is trying to do what is right. Help, and strength will continue to come to you when you need it.

Keep trying, and never give up.

I will be out of town for at least a day, with no net access. Sorry I didn't say more.

SS

This is my first totally free evening for quite some time. The twins are next door at their best friends home, and W has been ill today, and is sleeping. Maybe I can finally catch up a little bit.

You wouldn't believe how many times I read your post, and a reply starts to come to me, and I have to go do something else. (Or maybe you would, since you live real life too.)

I am going back a few posts -


I would just like to say - I do realize that this is a marriage-building forum and I came here in the hopes of rebuilding my marriage when I found out my H was having EAs and now he has had a PA. I am also a child of divorce and have had to deal with my father's OW all my life. I know that most people would choose not to handle my situation the way that I have. Most people would be divorced by now and they would feel it was better for the children to be divorced. I am not convinced of that yet. And the reason for that is because of what I just talked about above - my father's OW. I could get divorced, and then my H would be free to have his other relationship(s) openly, and there would be no way to avoid my children coming into contact with them. I feel a very strong determination not to let my children suffer what I went through, and not to have to go through what I went through.

I have learned that God does guide us if our hearts are turned to him. There are many voices on MB these days............ and if you were getting lots of posts, you might hear people saying things like "kick him to the curb." I tend to think your heart IS turned to God, and that you are being helped. I admit I still worry though.......... maybe not as much as before, but I still worry .


My H is a wayward spouse - he's not honest. But any woman who would suck my H into a R with her is not safe to be around my kids. That's why I stay married - to try to keep them safe with me. If we divorce, they could go to him, or end up spending time with him and his OW, which could be a worse thing for them than what we have now.

My W's parents were divorced when she was about 16. She seems the best adjusted of all her brothers and sisters, but most of them still have problems that can be traced back to the D. (about 34 years ago.) God is the only one who knows what is best .......... I hope you continue to ask him for guidance.


You asked about my health. Just in the last few days, I finally have some improvement! I went to the doctor again this week............... he said there were other things they could try before then, and he put me on a very low dose of a medication called Amitryptiline..........It works!!

That is very, very good news. Thank you for reporting it. Your health is so important....... especially when so much depends upon you.



I am so happy. For the last few days, my pain has been gone. Actually I can still feel sensations there, like there is something amiss, but it's like someone has injected a massive anaesthetic there so I don't feel the pain anymore. I take it at night because it makes me sleepy, so I have now had a few nights of really good sleep, which is starting to make a difference.

I hope you continue to get a good nights sleep most nights. It helps SO MUCH. I was afraid it would continue to get worse, and weaken your immune system. It is amazing how getting enough restful sleep can help our attitude, and our ability to cope with daily problems.



On the home front with Dad - my Dad finally called me two days ago and I was able to have a good talk with him, explain the situation and move forward with reconciliation (with him). He has not been able to call me until then because of my SM, who does not leave him alone for one minute, so that he can't call us.

By now he knows he made a big mistake so long ago, but of course, it's too late to change it. Why do people continue to give up heaven for the thrills of this world? Especially such counterfeit ones? I feel sorry for him.

I know people will say, what's wrong with him that he lets her have that power over him, that he can always use that as an excuse. Well, my Dad lives in the woods in a 3 room wooden cabin with no indoor toilet facilities, an outside bathtub, and only enough electricity to run one lightbulb and the phone line. It's not possible for him to have a private phone conversation in these Ma and Pa Kettle conditions with a raging madwoman in the next room who barges in and grabs the phone away from him. He would have to physically assault her in order to regain control, and that he won't do. He has had to wait for the moment when she leaves him alone, which would also coincide with our differing time zones, in order to call me.

Sometimes I wonder why he doesn't run. That would be another way to regain control. Ditch her, get a lawyer, and sever all ties. Let the lawyer be a go between. Perhaps the devil we know is better than the devil we don't know. I would guess at this point he will live out his life with her.
Sad.



What's happened here is that my SM has been "outed" in her hidden antipathy and jealousy for us, his children. Although I realize this makes life difficult for him, for us it is a blessing - the truth always seems easier to cope with. My counselor said she has thought about this a lot and says that 41 years (the length of time my SM has been in my life) is a long time to have to deal with someone like this.

I wonder what I would have done........ but I have no idea. 41 years is a long time, especially when it starts when you are so young when it began. My mother and father are still together. Our family ties are strong. I wonder if this is something that you sometimes wish for. I hope I don't stir up things better left alone.


Obviously it would have an effect. It is probably why I am so analytical - my brain tries desperately to figure out what other people's real motives are, trying to evaluate their behaviour. As a child, my feelings were, to some degree, invalidated - I was not allowed to say I didn't want to see her or have a relationship with her. Oh, it's a long story....it would make a good novel, if only I had the time, courage and talent to write it. I sometimes think that would be the most healthy way to deal with myself - to fictionalize things and produce some kind of "work of art" - that would get it out of my system in a good way, not in a bad way.

This was difficult to write about?
I am having a hard time knowing what to say about this part. I know God can heal us, and make things right, but I don't understand it completely. May it be sooner than later for you. I am constantly amazed by how much you see, and understand. I know it doesn't make the emotional part any easier though.

Anyhoo, I am at least glad to be in communication with my Dad again. My sister wants reconciliation, too, so I think things look hopeful on this. As to my SM, I'm not concerned about her - I'm not worrying about her feelings or what will become of her. I am just praying for her. I don't want to be sucked into a relationship with her, though.

I think you are going about this the right way, with the right attitude.
Do you have a date for your next visit back home? Sometimes I wish you lived closer to your sister.

I hope she and her H are doing well these days.


My H - well. Yes, you are right. It still hurts. I can't forget the hopes and dreams I had and the commitment I gave to marriage. My children are a flesh and blood reminder of the love I felt for my H - I would not have had them if I had not loved him enough to accept the commitment of marriage and all that went with it, which is what my H asked of me.

I know that words.......... can not express the depth of feelings associated with the comments you are making here........... nor our desire that things were otherwise. Please forgive me, but I can't find the right words.
"Sorry" is such an understatement.

Still.............. I trust you to God, knowing he doesn't need words to make it right, and knowing that he has the ability to do it too.

I can't understand why my H has abandoned me.

I continue to look at all the things that have happened, and that continue to happen. IN the early years, I would offer suggestions, and things you could try, but what he is doing goes way beyond anything in my own experience. I feel more sorry for him than I do for you. We cannot get mortal things by Celestial customs.......... that applies to relationships that are not Godly, as well as "things." He probably has less than 50 years left of this life, and then he will meet his maker. It hurts me to think of the results of that meeting if he doesn't accept God into his life. Why would he throw his life away for a few trinkets....... so to speak?

I don't know how to help him come back. I don't really know what drives him or who he is anymore. All I can do is pray for him, which I continue to do.

As do I, for all of you.



I have to go now, but thanks for your prayers and thoughts. The anger problem thing is something we could talk about later, maybe....

I often wonder when I go back and read my comments if I worded things the right way. What I said about anger was not a reflection on you at all. I was thinking about me, and my past because of what you wrote. I find that reading the bible is not quit enough, but I need to spend time thinking about what I read, and meditating on what the scripture says. I was doing that as I was typing, and not thinking so much about the way I was putting the words together.

I know you have said that in the early years you would get angry with him, and sometimes react in ways you regretted. It looks like you are doing much better now. I am not sure if I do as well as you do.

I find I still get angry sometimes, but I am able to control it (most of the time) deal with it, and not hurt my W or children as I once did. I hope in time that even the internal anger will go away. One of the ways I deal with it, is by going over the apparent cause of my feelings (in my own mind.) When I take the time to think about things, I usually realize that the anger is a selfish reaction to whatever the problem is. Usually I get angry when I am inconvienced. When I think about how to best solve whatever the problem is, I feel empathy for others, and want to help them, and the anger just kind of goes away.. It has been interesting for me to learn more about myself, and how my mind works.

I am far from perfect, but improving.


I did write my H a letter after I found the card from her in his wallet on 12 Feb. I've been thinking of posting it here because I've been thinking about continuing to write him - at least then I would say what I wanted to say to him, even if he never replied.

What direction would you be taking with this?
I would love to know what you have in mind.


To change the subject.......

The garden is coming up - at lest the things that can survive a light frost. I can see small green shoots from all of these.
Leeks
Onions
Edible pod peas
Carrots
Cabbage
Beets
The peach tree has buds on it today. I hope it doesn't freeze very hard now.

We pulled up the last of turnips this week. Now that it's getting warm, they would go to seed if we left them in the ground. I will save one or two for seed, but the rest are gone.

We did our annual camping trip to the desert last week. It was cool the first two days, but the last day was perfect. I should probably post a few photos. I doubt if you see much desert close to where you live now. (grin)

SS

I would love to reply to you, but I am going away for 10 days and it is already 12:30 AM - I have been checking for days, but the board has been down, so I couldn't post. I am going to stay with my FIL for 10 days - he is 90 and still lives alone, so I am going to look after him while my BIL is away on holiday. I'm looking forward to it, and so is he - he likes me. My H will have to cope with taking care of the family while I am away - as YS is still in school...Easter was so early this year....

I just wanted to say I read your last post and I'm grateful for your prayers. I hope your wife feels better now. My counselling is going well...I think I am in good hands. I am feeling better - I've been to the Pain Clinic and the doctor there put me on an additional medication - it's all working, so it's good to know they have diagnosed the problem - that helps me stop worrying about it.....rest is important, though, so I've got to get to bed. I continue to pray, and sometimes things come to me.....I ask God to forgive me for judging others....

I'll come back on when I come back after 3 April. Good luck with your garden!

LIR

I'll be posting more about anger....... sometime this week.

Have a good, safe trip. God be with you.

SS

More thoughts about anger...
I'm going to talk about how I try to deal with it, and give you some thoughts. I hope you will add to it, and perhaps help me with a discussion. However, please don't spend time you don't have. I realize as I write this that you are not home yet, and when you do get home there will be things to do.

I still have a temper. Most people don't now it, but I do. Some people say that anger is good, in that it prompts us to act. For instance, if my W does something that I don't like, and I bite my tongue, there usually comes a day when it all comes out. IN the past, it was ugly when that happened. Dr Harley says we ought to have radical honesty. That is, we need to share the things that bother us, and even more important, the things that delight us. Failure to discuss and process things often does lead to angry discussions.

The problem I had in the past is that to "keep the peace" I would try to keep things to myself. I could do it for a long time, but something would trigger me, and I would unload on my W. She would cry, or get angry back, and we would feel worse, not better.

I am trying to learn to bring things up as I go along now, and not save them or try to hide them.

There are two sides to this though. I already know it's best not to talk within minutes of some kind of trigger event. I know the chance of my saying something mean goes way down if I wait a day, so I usually wait. The danger is that I will wait too long, and let it pass until the NEXT trigger event. Jesus knew how to act when something happened. He never lost control, and always talked when he needed to talk, or stronger if more was called for. I am not that good, and I have a difficult time knowing what to say, and when to say it.

See, some things really should be left alone. There is the scripture about cleaning our my own eye before worrying about someone else's eye. However, sometimes it is necessary and right to talk about a problem, and come to a solution. Anger can be the prompt to these conversations, but should not set the tone for them. I am still working on that.

What I have learned -

Don't talk when I am really bent out of shape.
Don't let it go if It is important - it will come back later to haunt me.
Go to God with my thoughts, and ask him to guide me. This helps me to know when to act, and when to let things go. Or in other words, to know what is important, and what may only be a problem in my own mind.

I think this is part of what we come to this life to learn. I still have trouble on both ends. Sometimes I will take a walk to quiet down. I wish I didn't have to, but it's better than speaking in anger. Sometimes I let things go that I should deal with. Almost always they return in force.

The trick is finding the right balance. I am still working on that.

I have thought about this in connection with your situation. You have to make choices as to how to react to things your H does. You have made those choices, and are making them. We pray for you often, and hope you find balance too.

SS

Dear still seeking -

I am back from my trip and feel...better somehow, for the break....I had a good time with my FIL and feel somehow more at peace with everything. I will go into that later....

I just have a few minutes, when everyone else is busy, so I wanted to say hi and thank you for your post. I have some thoughts on the things you said, which I will go into more depth with later....I also can struggle with anger, and I know that anger is probably one of my H's major problems.

When I was away, I used the time to get back to studying, and it's odd, but all the stuff in this Management course (sheesh I just tried to do the roll eyes icon and it's going to look like I'm upset when I'm not - don't panic, don't panic!)...anyway...Management (rolls eyes), as Management was something I just never thought I would be interested in....and, the truth is, that I never thought I would be good at it, so I didn't dare open a book on the subject....me? Manager? Never....well....for some odd reason, I guess at age 50, without realizing it, I have done a lot of "management" by now, and I'm realizing some of what I have done has been "good", and some management of my life has been "not so good".....but...(I'm getting there....grins)....a lot of it is making a lot of common sense to me....and there is a lot of stuff in here that I keep thinking..."if only I had been taught that when I was 25!"...of course, at 25, I would probably have been incapable of following any of the guidance being taught here - why? Because I acted entirely on my emotions, whatever they were....

In my reading, at the moment (I've covered all kinds of interesting (NOT) stuff like budgets, strategic planning, costing, working with people, power, influence, authority, etc...)...and at the moment, I'm on "Problem solving and decision making". Decision making is really grabbing my attention (I have a few problems to solve and a few decisions that could be made....grins again). It's great because I am reading about all the techniques there are to approach problem-solving and decision-making.....great stuff....then they ask "How do you approach solving problems and making decisions in your personal life?" and the answer is - LOL! Really! I realize (a little late in the game, I admit) that all the most important decisions in my life have probably been made with very little rational thought and mostly purely on emotion. Business decisions, management decisions have to be made on a rational basis....but we grant ourselves license to act purely on our emotions in our personal lives.

I also pray and meditate a lot on the anger issue. I have been on the receiving end of a lot of serious anger in my life, and have also expressed myself very angrily at times. How can we deal with these feelings in a way that doesn't hurt others, and yet still get some feeling of satisfaction, in other words, we are angry for a reason...something upsets us about the way someone else has behaved, usually - they have done something we don't like, or created a problem that we feel we have to solve...sometimes we feel it is not fair that we have to solve a problem created by someone else, so we seethe with resentment, which festers.

(I'm just going with my flow right now...I hope you know that what I am saying I am applying to myself, too, so I hope you don't feel I am "preaching" at you....) - well, as I have been looking carefully at these different methods for problem-solving, and decison-making, it strikes me that when we are angry, it is because we perceive that there is a problem....and we can't feel relaxed until the issue is resolved in a way that is satisfactory to us.

I think that is why we fester, and it all comes spilling out when our resentment is triggered...because we still have not resolved the issue which is bothering us.

It is necessary to take the time to calm down - anger is the most powerful emotion there is, besides love....anger is so powerful, it can kill...so it is useless trying to resolve an issue when we are in the grip of anger. Any solution we might try to thrash through will be clouded by very powerful emotions.

I think its possible to take that time, the time when we usually fester with unresolved anger, and, once we have got a little breathing space, put some safe distance between ourselves and what has sparked our temper.....to put these problems solving techniques to work....once our rational mind is able to operate again....the first step is to articulate exactly what the problem is....you cannot arrive at a solution without articulating the problem....then you look at your desirable outcome....try to articulate your objective.....usually we have our heart set on only one path to this desired objective....and this is the important bit.....you need to take this breathing space time to think up alternatives....just as if you were trying to find a solution to a space problem in your shop....try to think of alternative solutions to your problem....list them, then try to evaluate them....once you set your rational mind this problem to solve and give it a structure that it can use to develop some creative thinking around, you may surprise yourself with the solutions you can think up....after you have taken the time to evaluate all the alternatives, you may find that you can approach the problem differently...because your goal is to find the BEST solution to your problem.....

You strike me as being a rational person, ss, and I am sure that you probably use these kinds of techniques when you are facing decisions you have to make about your business.....that's not to say that I think you should be cold-hearted about the issues you want to resolve with your family or your wife....it has just struck me that in that space when you withdraw to try to control your anger, that if you take the time to go through this process, you will end up finding a way towards a solution to the issue in question, and you may be able to go back and approach the issue with your loved one in a different frame of mind.

I have also been struck by the continual advice to consult your employees - to gather their input.....that employees are a lot happier when they feel that they are being listened to, and are able to contribute (I know my job is vastly improved by my boss having this approach with me, in stark contrast to my previous boss). It strikes me that I could do better at "consulting" with my boys - of course, I AM the boss - but I think I could be better about "gathering information" i.e. allowing them to participate more, and to voice their feelings about certain things.

To go back to the decision-making process....once you feel you have some mastery over the process - time out, take a deep breath, calm down - then start processing the problem - state the problem to yourself, state your ideal objective, brainstorm solutions, brainstorm ALTERNATIVES, then evaluate the alternatives, try to decide on which is the BEST solution - OK, I can see you being good at this, ss -

Then, perhaps on issues that are not likely to suddenly require the use of a fire extinguisher, try to practice this whole process with her, and the rest of the family - (apparently, group decision making is called "brainstorming") - I bet you already do this!-) For the times when you feel you are going to explode, you will probably always need to get breathing space between yourself and the trigger to your anger, but perhaps it will get easier as time goes on, to find a solution to what is triggering the rage....

See, it's all new to me - I get excited about new stuff - I want to share.-)

I am just going to throw this out there....it might give you some creative ideas you can use....

I've got to go....family needs my attention now, but all the best and I will post sometime soon....I can't get the search function to work on this new forum....still finding my way around....

Good luck with your garden!

LIR

Hello...

I hope you don't think I was being patronizing....you probably know all about that stuff already......

Oops....OS needs the Mom taxi service ASAP.

Hope you are well.

LIR

As far as being patronizing -
I had to read it three times before I could understand what you meant by that. (SS smiles)

No, I didn't think that. It never crossed my mind. I'm just being my (often) slow self. Working on a post in word processor, will post it when finished. Sometimes I have it open two or three days before I finish......... sorry it takes me so long.

I hope the taxi driver got a tip.

Very glad you got a break for a while. It sounds like you had some time to think. I hope you had some time to sleep too.

Things are OK on this end. Problems every week, but by the grace of God we get through them just fine. (another smile)

Garden is doing well - hope yours is also. And......... I hope the boys are well.

SS

Hello LIR !!
It's always nice to hear from you.

I am back from my trip and feel...better somehow, for the break....I had a good time with my FIL and feel somehow more at peace with everything. I will go into that later....

I thought it would be good for you. No real reason, except that you were probably more at ease that you can be with H around. Will wait to hear what you have to say. It is always interesting to have your insights and thoughts.

I just have a few minutes, when everyone else is busy, so I wanted to say hi and thank you for your post. I have some thoughts on the things you said, which I will go into more depth with later....I also can struggle with anger, and I know that anger is probably one of my H's major problems.

I was mostly talking about my own struggles, but I know you have spoken about it over the years. It would be almost unbelievable to go through the problems you have been through and not have to deal with anger. I hope you will comment and give some insight.


When I was away, I used the time to get back to studying, and it's odd, but all the stuff in this Management course (sheesh I just tried to do the roll eyes icon and it's going to look like I'm upset when I'm not - don't panic, don't panic!)...anyway...Management (rolls eyes), as Management was something I just never thought I would be interested in....and, the truth is, that I never thought I would be good at it, so I didn't dare open a book on the subject....me? Manager?

Often......... people who have good job skills are promoted to be managers. Sometimes they are able to learn to manage swell, and teach others their skills, and sometimes not. I have always looked at management as the art of getting many to do what needs to be done, instead of trying to do it all yourself. . It was good for me to read this, because I don't often bring this into my mind to mull over. I am just so/so at management, probably much better in the job skill area. I have a hard time getting my employees to do things as well as I like to have them done. I would think you would be good at it. Most good mothers are good managers. At least, in my experience.

Never....well....for some odd reason, I guess at age 50, without realizing it, I have done a lot of "management" by now, and I'm realizing some of what I have done has been "good", and some management of my life has been "not so good".....but...(I'm getting there....grins)....a lot of it is making a lot of common sense to me....and there is a lot of stuff in here that I keep thinking..."if only I had been taught that when I was 25!"...of course, at 25, I would probably have been incapable of following any of the guidance being taught here - why? Because I acted entirely on my emotions, whatever they were....

I can identify with your comment about learning at 25. That made me laugh. I have said more than once that you are good at examining what is happening, and figuring out what to do about it. I think you would be a good manager. You also have experience with patience. Patience is necessary in a good manager. My brother managed a business for an absentee owner. Sometimes the owner would come on site, and fire an employee who was in the middle of the three month training. (for some small error.) My brother finally quit over it. He said the owner wasn't there from day to day, and had no idea if the person was doing well or not, but he had no patience for small mistakes. That's why I say that good mothers often are good managers. You have to learn patience to be a good parent.

In my reading, at the moment (I've covered all kinds of interesting (NOT) stuff like budgets, strategic planning, costing, working with people, power, influence, authority, etc...)

Much of it is boring. I can do a budget, and you have to know how, but ours is much the same from year to year now, and I don't do it unless I have projected some big change. Some of the other things become second nature, and you don't think about them much after you learn how. You DO need to learn how though.

...and at the moment, I'm on "Problem solving and decision making". Decision making is really grabbing my attention (I have a few problems to solve and a few decisions that could be made....grins again). It's great because I am reading about all the techniques there are to approach problem-solving and decision-making.....great stuff....then they ask "How do you approach solving problems and making decisions in your personal life?" and the answer is - LOL! Really! I realize (a little late in the game, I admit) that all the most important decisions in my life have probably been made with very little rational thought and mostly purely on emotion. Business decisions, management decisions have to be made on a rational basis....but we grant ourselves license to act purely on our emotions in our personal lives.

I have learned to gather the information, do best case and worst case scenarios, and if the worst case won't put me out of business, and the middle of the road will help, I make a decision, and take it to God for confirmation. Sometimes he tells me NO. Sometimes I decide the worst case is too dangerous, and he tells me yes anyway, but usually he agrees with me. I realize I can make listen mistakes, but I think it works well.

I also pray and meditate a lot on the anger issue. I have been on the receiving end of a lot of serious anger in my life, and have also expressed myself very angrily at times. How can we deal with these feelings in a way that doesn't hurt others, and yet still get some feeling of satisfaction, in other words, we are angry for a reason...something upsets us about the way someone else has behaved, usually - they have done something we don't like, or created a problem that we feel we have to solve...sometimes we feel it is not fair that we have to solve a problem created by someone else, so we seethe with resentment, which festers.

I see you pray and meditate too. I think it really helps. Both for decisions, and anger problems. You are right, we ARE angry for a reason, and unless we deal with the root cause, the problems comes back over and over again. I am getting better about solving problems created by others, unless they do the same thing over and over. In that case, I often turn it back to them and let they figure it out. (Or attempt to.)

(I'm just going with my flow right now...I hope you know that what I am saying I am applying to myself, too, so I hope you don't feel I am "preaching" at you....) - well, as I have been looking carefully at these different methods for problem-solving, and decison-making, it strikes me that when we are angry, it is because we perceive that there is a problem....and we can't feel relaxed until the issue is resolved in a way that is satisfactory to us.

This was very enjoyable for me to read. Didn't notice any preaching at all. If you have time tonight, come by after the dishes are done, and W and I will sit on the swing out front, and talk with you about this. It's a good topic for evening conversation on the front porch.

I think that is why we fester, and it all comes spilling out when our resentment is triggered...because we still have not resolved the issue which is bothering us.

Agreed. Especially the huge issues you have been facing the last 4 or 5 years. Of course, with SM, you have faced it since you were small. It is worse when you can't see a solution.

It is necessary to take the time to calm down - anger is the most powerful emotion there is, besides love....anger is so powerful, it can kill...so it is useless trying to resolve an issue when we are in the grip of anger. Any solution we might try to thrash through will be clouded by very powerful emotions.

Agree to this also. As I said, I have learned to wait. The need to resolve the problem, and the knowledge that I am too angry to talk rationally.......... often drives me nuts. Oh well....... LOL.


You strike me as being a rational person, ss, and I am sure that you probably use these kinds of techniques when you are facing decisions you have to make about your business.....that's not to say that I think you should be cold-hearted about the issues you want to resolve with your family or your wife....it has just struck me that in that space when you withdraw to try to control your anger, that if you take the time to go through this process, you will end up finding a way towards a solution to the issue in question, and you may be able to go back and approach the issue with your loved one in a different frame of mind.

When I take the time, things nearly always work themselves out for the better. Rational thought does wonders for a dispute. Often we wonder why it upset us in the first place. Proof to some that there really is a devil.

I have also been struck by the continual advice to consult your employees - to gather their input.....that employees are a lot happier when they feel that they are being listened to, and are able to contribute (I know my job is vastly improved by my boss having this approach with me, in stark contrast to my previous boss). It strikes me that I could do better at "consulting" with my boys - of course, I AM the boss - but I think I could be better about "gathering information" i.e. allowing them to participate more, and to voice their feelings about certain things.

This is true - employees do better when they know their input is valuable. Of course, they can do great damage if they make a wrong choice too. It's hard to balance the two........ safety, and input from those who lack experience. You are correct to compare it to a family. There are some decisions that are mostly safe - what color of shirt do you want to wear? And others that may not be so safe - "Dad, can I use the chain saw to help cut down that tree?"


To go back to the decision-making process....once you feel you have some mastery over the process - time out, take a deep breath, calm down - then start processing the problem - state the problem to yourself, state your ideal objective, brainstorm solutions, brainstorm ALTERNATIVES, then evaluate the alternatives, try to decide on which is the BEST solution - OK, I can see you being good at this, ss -

My problem (often) is getting others to buy in to the process. Both my families, and my employees. Sometimes a person wants what they want, and they won't listen to another point of view. Kind of like a person in the middle of an A.

Then, perhaps on issues that are not likely to suddenly require the use of a fire extinguisher, try to practice this whole process with her, and the rest of the family - (apparently, group decision making is called "brainstorming") - I bet you already do this!-) For the times when you feel you are going to explode, you will probably always need to get breathing space between yourself and the trigger to your anger, but perhaps it will get easier as time goes on, to find a solution to what is triggering the rage....

We use brainstorming all the time. I so enjoy the way you word your comments. It's easy to understand what you mean, and it's so helpful to read when thinking about how to solve problems. We brainstorm family vacations, what to have for dinner on special occasions, and all kinds of things. You have to have guidelines (no, I am afraid we can't list "murder her in her sleep" as a way to stop your sister from bothering you. Do you have any other ideas?" )


See, it's all new to me - I get excited about new stuff - I want to share.-)

It sounds like you already know most of this stuff. I think I am seeing someone excited because she has already been using the theory, and didn't realize it.

I am just going to throw this out there....it might give you some creative ideas you can use....

It always helps to review. Thanks. !!

I'll wait for comments on your days away, and the conclusions you came to while you were gone.

SS

HI LIR !!!

I see I made a lot of typos in that last post, but I am not able to edit them now. ( I think we only get three days)
Oh well.

I am sure if I ask in a nice way, you will forgive me.
Please?

I was thinking about this thread last weekend as we were driving, and I had another good idea about anger to pass along, but I can't remember it now. If it comes back to me, I'll post it.

We drove 375 miles home on Saturday, and by the time I got home, It had slipped my mind. One of the twins is quite an artist, and she submitted a painting to the state duck stamp contest. The winners from each state send their painting to a national contest, and the winner over all has their painting used on a postage stamp. Anyway, our D took third place in her age group, and we took her to the award ceremony (and luncheon.) She had a good time, and the rest of us did also.

Anger can be useful as a catalyst for change. Sometimes we are stuck, and we avoid making decisions (which is a decision also, but that's another discussion) Anger can help set us in motion sometimes when nothing else will. Sometimes it helps people do what they should have done all along, but often it sets them to doing things they ought not to do.

Logic is a big help - and you did a good job of talking about how it comes into play - or should come into play. We do well to know our selves, and how we react to things. That can help us know if we ought to go ahead and act, or wait. I tend to wait too long when I am not angry, and act too soon when I am. Thinking about how I do things helps me to moderate my action. I can learn to act even when I am not angry, and I can learn to wait, and think when I am. Asking for God's help makes a huge difference for me. He can put it into my heart to know what course to take, and he also helps me follow through.

I still have a long way to go though........ but am working on it.

SS

So sorry it has been so long!

I am OK, and I think your point about anger as a catalyst is a good one....anger can really motivate us to change things we need to change, and anger brings a lot of energy into play....channelling that and remaining respectful to others is the challenge....

Things have been kind of hotting up at home between my sister and my Dad....so I have found myself as a kind of go-between....my Dad calls me and asks me how my sister is doing....I try to relay what's going on with my sister....she's under a lot of stress and experiencing health problems now....and I try to relay to her how I think he is doing, and what he says....it isn't a bad thing for me to be this kind of cushion....I am aware that I have to be scrupulously accurate about what I say to each of them so that I don't end up relaying false impressions....my sister and I would both like to be able to ring him directly, but we can't because of my SM....when I talk to my Dad (it's only been about 5-6 times), he only is able to talk briefly, then he says he has to go, and I can tell it's because my SM is coming into view. While this may sound strange, I am actually amused by this situation - that my Dad has to sneak around to call his own daughters. Just like a WS having to live with the OW, my Dad is now having to pay the REAL price of his affair....an affair that happened 40 years ago.....

In addition, I am back at work, and running like a dog with its tongue hanging out, all the time!

The weather here has finally started to warm up - we've had two weekends of warm sunny weather - which means it is time to attack the garden, so I have spent hours at a stretch in my vegetable patch last weekend and this weekend, doing heavy digging in preparation for planting....this last weekend we planted one tray of potatos ( I have two trays left to put in) - I have broad beans, onions, carrots, and shallots already on the go.....I plan space for salad greens, broccoli, and squash. I have also spent hours in my back garden, cutting the lawn, pruning, and weeding....it can't wait this time of year, or I will be knee-deep in weeds by next week!

Which brings me to the topic of my H....I think he has been making a big effort to be more helpful than usual, ever since I came back from his Dad's, and I told him that his Dad wants us to let bygones be bygones. This weekend he unexpectedly came up to the vegetable patch, where I was trying to get the potatoes started, and he offered to help: he dug the trenches (the heavy work), and then I laid the potates in and covered them, clearing away the roots of weeds as I went....He stayed about 3 hours with me and I know I wouldn't have got it done if he hadn't come up to help me. He has made an extra effort to be there for me, coming home to help take YS to his doctor's appointment, and helping with the laundry and the washing up.....I have been making sure that I thank him for everything he does, and I have also been "getting in his space" by touching him a lot - just patting him on the back, standing near him, and the occasional hug. Last week, he gave me a spontaneous hug (one of the only ones he has ever given me) - that really surprised me...because it is so rare, I knew he really meant it....he had asked me to read over a piece of work he has been producing, which I did and I had made my comments on a few corrections and clarifications I thought he could make, and then said I thought it was exceptional work and I was very proud of him....at the end of the day when I was going to bed, he reached out and awkwardly hugged me. Last week, I met up with my friend who teaches Mental Health Law - she is in the country and we had one day to spend together, so she met me here and then we went out for the day....she chatted with H before we went, and when we were out, she said she thought that my H has an "Anxiety Disorder" - she said it is something they are now diagnosing and recognizing....it was like her lightbulbs went on...she said he does not have a personality disorder, he has an anxiety disorder....he is wound tight as a rubber band all the time, and he is anxious and worried all the time about whether or not something is going to get done, or if it is going to get done the right way, and like a rubber band, he can snap if he is wound too tight....in fact, the medication I am on is one which is used to treat GAD, General Anxiety Disorder.....really, this does seem to fit my H to a T.....and it's hard on the people around him....we (his family) get stressed because HE is so stressy....he, of course, doesn't recognize that it is HIM who is stressed out, he thinks it's something WE are doing which is upsetting him.....well, that's her assessment, and she works as a legal advocate for the mentally ill.....interesting....

(I've just been interrupted by the roofers my H has called in to do some work on our roof, which is the original slate roof on this house and 114 years old - been through at least one hurricane and many gale-force winds - but needs some TLC at the moment - it's also pouring rain here, so they may put off some of the work until tomorrow - I need to go to the bank today urgently - I hope I don't have to stay here all day while they take my roof off....)

I am having the feeling that my H is more involved with us again....his family, and me...so it may be that there is a thaw going on here.....I hope this is good news.....

I think I am just going to continue working away at what I am doing that seems to be getting positive results....

I have to "down tools" as they say here, and get to work at being tea lady for these roofers.....

I hope you and your family are all well, and that your garden is flourishing.

Many thanks for all your prayers....they must be helping....

LIR

This last post of yours is a very positive one.

Wouldn't it be wonderful to have your H back in the marriage with all his heart.

How do they work on the roof in a pouring rain?

It's so different here to work on roofs. We often go 4 or 5 months without rain, and the forecasts are pretty accurate these days. They sometimes take the whole roof off, and leave it for weeks before they put the new one back.

Are your sisters problems serious? Do we need to pray for her as well as you?

I am sorry for your father. To be deprived of the company of ones daughters would be he11 on earth. I can't imagine it. It's hard to have much hope for his situation at this point in his life, but one still tries to have hope. Do you think it will ever change?

In addition, I am back at work, and running like a dog with its tongue hanging out, all the time!

Not a pretty picture. I sure hope your health is better than it was.
That, or you and I need to have a talk. (SS looks stern.)

FIL must have made a good impression on you. It sounds like he helped.

Have to go - W says it's time for bed.

Very happy about your H helping, and acting closer. Really hope it continues to improve.

Hope your boys are well too, and thanks for the update on the garden. Ours is doing well.... should I post another photo of it for spring?

Hope your weekend is a good GREAT one.

SS

Hi ss,

Grabbing 10 minutes here....

Spent 5 hours in my vegetable garden yesterday, digging over another plot for more potatoes. H called me on my mobile while I was there and said he would be able to plant them on Monday (tomorrow)...another sign that he wants to be helpful.

Today I am doing laundry and trying to study. I get very little studying done when I have to be Mom.....my brain goes into Mom mode and can't stop paying attention to all the stuff that needs to be done.

I think these medications are helping me....it seems I worry less, however, it is also much lighter and warmer now, so my mood could be lighter because it is the "good" time of year for me. I have brought this up with my counselor and asked her to help me monitor my mood as this year goes on, to see if I start to feel down again when autumn comes.

OS is starting Confirmation....he will be going to church for his program every Sunday, for hour and a half sessions with his Confirmation group, followed by Mass, which I and YS will attend with him. I'm glad he wants to do this...it has to be his choice. H and I accompanied him to the initial Parent and Candidates meeting. I feel uncomfortable at these meetings since I feel like we are not a "real" couple....I feel like I am lying to everyone in the room, even when I am not the WS. My H appears to all intents and purposes to be a jolly and respectable husband and father. Our son, though is visibly withdrawn, in typical surly 15-yr old mode...I know this is partly a reaction to his dad and partly his own nature....he IS shy and also intense....he is very aware of other people and situations and I suspect it grates on him that my H appears (to him) to be putting on a show...he has told me that he doesn't respect his Dad because he thinks he doesn't live his faith, but that that doesn't make HIM feel like there is something wrong with faith itself....or his religion.....he has separated his faith from what he sees as his father's hypocrisy.....I am wondering if I should go to our priest who is leading the Confirmation class and let him know what is happening at home.....that my H had an affair, that he says he doesn't love me, but that we still live together and sleep in separate bedrooms...that I don't really know whether my H is still in this affair....and what impact this might be having on OS and YS....it seems to me dishonest to not tell our priest the truth, especially if it would help him understand my son....

These are the questions going around in my head....

And H trying to be helpful....

FIL wants us to start sleeping together again. He seemed to be saying to me, when I was staying with him, and we tried to talk about it, that he thought I might have over-reacted to my H receiving the equivalent of too much admiration (fans) from fans who admired him professionally...I think this is wishful thinking on his part, although there is some truth in that....in other words, he didn't think it was something worth losing our marriage over....so my feeling is that FIL is not totally on my side, in that he wants to believe that his son is not the kind of man who would mess around on his wife....he is very elderly and wants desperately for us to make up and put it behind us....I haven't approached H any more than just being quietly kind to him.

Here is the thing. I am now 50, I will be 51 this week. I went through menopause this year. So there you have it....I am no longer young, and it DOES seem to matter....I think that this is part of it for my H....he is attracted to younger women, BECAUSE they are younger. He just doesn't find me attractive anymore...no matter what I do, how good I look for my age, and I don't think I look half bad, either....he is just not interested. Biological. All the psychological reasons come into play here....and his faith....do you ditch your wife just because she gets old, even if your faith tells you you cannot? How much easier it is to be a Muslim and just take a second, younger wife! Now that I am standing in these shoes, I ask myself these questions....I can try to understand what is happening with my H, but it hurts me.....to me, there is something that has to happen in marriage, and that is tenderness....the cherishing part. If you cherish your wife, and honour her, the love will follow...

My friend who teaches Mental Health Law is convinced that my H has an "anxiety disorder". If that is so, and I think it is, then he doesn't have "normal" responses to things - he is anxious and feels stressed most of the time....he achieves in his work because performing is something that requires that kind of adreniline rush....

Well, I need to go...those are just some of my thoughts....

Thank you for listening. I'm going to church now and will pray about things there....

LIR

Did your H help you plant potatoes on Monday?

This is interesting. I am trying not to get excited, but him helping is a very good sign.

Today I am doing laundry and trying to study. I get very little studying done when I have to be Mom.....my brain goes into Mom mode and can't stop paying attention to all the stuff that needs to be done.

I thought all women were excellant multi taskers, and could work on everything at the same time.
I know I AM NOT.

I suppose that is one of the reasons that ten days away was good for you.


I am wondering if I should go to our priest who is leading the Confirmation class and let him know what is happening at home.....that my H had an affair, that he says he doesn't love me, but that we still live together and sleep in separate bedrooms...that I don't really know whether my H is still in this affair....and what impact this might be having on OS and YS....it seems to me dishonest to not tell our priest the truth, especially if it would help him understand my son....

These are the questions going around in my head....

If it is affecting your son's performance, then tell them as soon as possible. I believe at least one Priest already knows?

You don't know if H is still in the A. If he is, they ought to knwow. The signs I am seeing lead me to believe he is not.
I know you don't want to snoop. Perhaps 6 months to see what happens would not be out of line. I would hate to report he is still in an active A if he is not.

And H trying to be helpful....

That's what I mean. He hasn't been this helpful for years.

Has he?

FIL wants us to start sleeping together again. He seemed to be saying to me, when I was staying with him, and we tried to talk about it, that he thought I might have over-reacted to my H receiving the equivalent of too much admiration (fans) from fans who admired him professionally...I think this is wishful thinking on his part, although there is some truth in that....in other words, he didn't think it was something worth losing our marriage over....so my feeling is that FIL is not totally on my side, in that he wants to believe that his son is not the kind of man who would mess around on his wife....he is very elderly and wants desperately for us to make up and put it behind us....I haven't approached H any more than just being quietly kind to him.

I have been wanting to bring this up too. We know that SF is a top need for most men. There won't be recovery until he is meeting your needs, and you are meeting his. To be frank, I didn't know how to bring it up........ you have been hurt so much, and no one wants you to suffer additional hurt. I don't know if you ought to be sleeping with H, but I know it would be very helpful for him. In some ways it would be helpful for you, but it could be very painful if it does not turn out well. And this doesn't take into account that he hasn't been tested, and all the physical details associated with someone who has been in an A.
I am not recommending you go ahead, I am just relating my thoughts. I don't know how to get the two of you back together and still take into account all you would need to be safe.

I can just imagine what would happen if you said "Honey, it's time to get back together, why don't you go get tested for STD's this week."

I'm not suggesting that either...... but I can't come up with any suggesting that sounds good.

Here is the thing. I am now 50, I will be 51 this week. I went through menopause this year. So there you have it....I am no longer young, and it DOES seem to matter....I think that this is part of it for my H....he is attracted to younger women, BECAUSE they are younger. He just doesn't find me attractive anymore...no matter what I do, how good I look for my age, and I don't think I look half bad, either....he is just not interested. Biological.

So what do I say here? (how do I give the best encouragement?)
I am no longer young either, but my W seems to love me. (I turn 53 this year.) You KNOW it is not you that is the problem. You know that it is him. You know you are loveable. At least, I hope you do. I can't comment on every thing about you, becaue In many ways, we are strangers, but I do know that you are a daughter of God who wants to do what is right, and that tells me all I need to know about the most importan things.

I think you are saying that it matters to HIM.
Remember that the MB program is all about getting people to fall in love.
Huge personal defects aside (some people are bent on sinning, and nothing can stop them,)this MB stuff works. Meeting needs and avoiding love busters does bring love back.
I still don't know how to tell you to get from here to there, but you will continue to think on it, I know you will.

Please understand.... I am not telling you that I think it's time, and I am not saying what would be best. I don't know what is best. I worry that any attempt to reconcile would hurt you all over again, and for sure you don't need that..... It's just that I would like to see the two of you in love again. I can see you holding hands, and all else that married people do when they are deeply in love. That includes joint parenting in the best possible way.
I wish I knew what to say. I hope what I have said is not distressing.


All the psychological reasons come into play here....and his faith....do you ditch your wife just because she gets old, even if your faith tells you you cannot?

Do you believe he wants to ditch you?
His being helpful lately........ is a good sign to me.
It occurs to me that you have had a long time to think about these things, and you are speculating about his thoughts and his reasoning. We all know the correct answers to the questions you are asking. We don't know what his thinking is on them.

How much easier it is to be a Muslim and just take a second, younger wife!

I have thought about that one...... and I think it would be more difficult than I can even imagine. I can't even begin to discuss the problems it would bring.
Understand what you are saying though. It wouldn't work for your H to try doing that publicly. Good grief, I can't even bring myself to joke about this. I should try to relax.


Now that I am standing in these shoes, I ask myself these questions....I can try to understand what is happening with my H, but it hurts me.....to me, there is something that has to happen in marriage, and that is tenderness....the cherishing part. If you cherish your wife, and honour her, the love will follow...

You are correct.
I think you are probably wishing out loud. It humbles me to read your comments. I still hope he gets back on board. May God bring it about.

My friend who teaches Mental Health Law is convinced that my H has an "anxiety disorder". If that is so, and I think it is, then he doesn't have "normal" responses to things - he is anxious and feels stressed most of the time....he achieves in his work because performing is something that requires that kind of adreniline rush....

So how do you cope with that? Or how does he cope with it?
How do you know for sure?

Well, I need to go...those are just some of my thoughts....

I continue to pray that you might find rest. We have unanswered questions, but God knows all. He can, and does continue to do his work all over the world. Count on him for help.

Thank you for listening. I'm going to church now and will pray about things there....

I hope you did get, and are getting answeres.

Ta Ta !

SS