I am having a bit of difficulty wrapping my brain around a concept that seems to be critical for me to completely buy into in order to move forward with recovery. I'm hoping that some of you who have done this can shed some light for me.

We have been counseling weekly with SH for about a month, and his contention is that my FWW committed adultery because "she failed to protect her weaknesses". This makes sense to my wife apparently, but something just doesn't quite seem complete to me. This explanation seems to me to mean that it was almost something of an accident, or that she was in some way a victim in this.

My feeling is that the adultery was a result not of something she fell a** backwards into, rather something she deliberately chose. SH disagrees with this assessment, hence my being stuck.

He does agree that she made the choice, but contends that she did so "under the influence". My contention is that she made a conscious, sober choice at the outset of their relationship to continue with it even as she knew that what she was doing was wrong.

I will grant that she was not herself or thinking clearly when she decided to start F-ing him, but that was 5 months or so into it.

I believe that when they first started "flirting" as FWW puts it, that she chose the path of infidelity. When he first directly hit on her, when he first gave her inappropriate gifts for her birthday, that she made a sober choice to start deceiving me and pursue this relationship. I will never know what was in her mind at the time, but I can't seem to make this make sense.

SH gives hypothetical examples of co-workers getting too close while working on a long stressful project and being unable to resist acting on their biologiical impulses. FWW and RB were only occasional part time co-workers. Semantics? Maybe. I do strongly believe that there are some among us that would NEVER choose to commit adultery regardless of how strong an attraction was there. That there is a strength of character or moral fiber or whatever, that exists in some of us that simply will not allow that level of closeness to develop. Am I out of my mind on this?

I have been in situations where there were attractive female friends and co-workers both married, and single when I was married, who indicated interest, but I always chose not to act. It is not something I would do. I can't say with 100% certainty that I will NEVER cheat, but I have never in spite of being tempted on a few occasions. And after this, I REALLY can't imagine going there.

If or when I decide it is time to start bedding someone else, I truly believe I would divorce my wife first. Not that I'm planning to do that, I am choosing to stay with FWW to attempt recovery and I hope we make it. Just want to make that clear.

I simply find it difficult to completely buy into the failur to protect as the be all end all explanation for why adultery happens. I believe that there can be many reasons. I believe Patriot92 has stated here on these boards that he cheated because he wanted cheap sex. Though unsavory at the least, I think that's honest.

Do I really have to buy, lock stock and barrel and truly believe in my heart SH's somewhat simplistic (IMO) explanation of why my wife did this?

Is failure to recover the only outcome if I just can't believe that "Letting her guard down" was the only reason she chose this?

I know this was long. I didn't intend it to be so long. For anyone who's made it this far, do you think you can help me?

Thank you.

Peace to all,
TTH

Tell her goodby. She will have one if not many new affairs on you. She is a bad egg. Are you making it to easy for her to get away with having sex with other men????

Stella,

I struggle with this too. Sometimes it feels like there really aren't any consequences or punishment for her in this.

I know at some level she feels bad about what she did, but I can't imagine that it even comes close to what I've endured.

In a sense I guess I have given her a free pass.

There will not ever be another. Of that I am certain.

I feel like SH assessment is a bit over simplistic myself. I think there are MANY reasons people cheat. NOT just because their defenses were down. Honestly, I don't buy that one. God help you if her defenses are ever down again.

My ex cheated because he could and because he wanted to hurt me.
I think some cheat because of the thrill of it. It is a fantasy.
Some do it for the attention they get.
Some do it to fill needs they feel aren't being met and when they start being met by someone else, they go with it.

Your wife had an EA for 5 months before CHOOSING to have sex with the guy. That, to me, is a VERY conscience decision. This was NOT an "oops". and it happened more than once.

I understand your dilemma try.

mlhb

My H and I have talked at length about how his A happened. At first, I think he didn't really intend on it becoming an A...I think it was just nice to have someone's attention and he would flirt back to encourage that attention.

As their EA grew, he began to get some of his ENs met by her. And as he began to get ENs met, he began to do things to ensure that she would keep meeting those needs. For my H...he gave her sex (I know, it sounds crazy for a guy, but he has never had much desire for sex and thus it was something that he did more to keep her involved...and they only did it four times in 3+ years). He admits that he didn't value her much. His A was not about being "in love" with her but more about meeting needs.

The A began to fail when she started to demand HER needs be met and the fantasy kind of fell apart (at least that's part of what I think happened). In addition, I started meeting some of his needs (we had been living apart and then I joined him) and he had a guy friend who started meeting some of the needs as well (conversation). He didn't "need" OW to meet those needs anymore and he didn't want to have to meet her needs at all so it ended.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I think that the needs may vary through the relationship...it may begin as attention and end with many ENs being met by OP...I don't think that many people go out "looking" for an A, but I think that they aren't careful in the beginning and allow (by choice) themselves to create a relationship with someone else where their needs are met outside of their marriage.

btw Try,

I don't think that you HAVE to believe what SH says. He has lots of experience, but he is also human. And really, you need to look at whether or not the reason for the A is a huge sticking point. I get that you must understand how it happened to guard against it in the future, but maybe implementing all of the MB philosophy is enough. Maybe there is no real complete UNDERSTANDING of what drives someone to cheat.

I do think that EVERYONE is capable of it. Even those of us who feel like we would never do it. Given the right circumstances, I think it is probable that ANYONE could fall into an A...and I mean FALL because of the idea that their intention wasn't: Ooooh, I know, I'm going to have an affair and completely mess up my marriage and intentionally harm the person that I love all for the sake of some good times.

I agree with your take on this.

Look, the Harley's job is to save marriages (for the most part). Allowing for some understandable reason why a WS decided to rut with another person helps to this end. Do I agree with their take on why affairs start...more often than not...no. I tend to look at many things from a legal standpoint...most affairs would be considered premeditated. Show me an affair where a spouse did not take any steps to hide their actions...where they did not conspire to commit this crime...and I may feel differently about THAT affair.

I think what is off here is that a lot of people do not really know the character of their spouses until something like this happens.

TryTooHard - if you "buy into" this sort of nonsense, then by all means, head directly to divorce court.

If, on the other hand, you DO want to recover your marriage with your wife, then you have to choose to ignore that sort of "helpful" advice.

So the question remains, what DO you want to do?

If it is recovery, then you have to COMMIT to recovery.

So does your wife.

That's the "easy way of putting it, the "practice" of it is much more complicated and stressful because the recovery journey is both long (average of two years) and complete with times of "ups and downs" (hence the analogy to a "roller coaster")


Having said that, let's look briefly at what you posted and I'll offer you my "take" on your areas of question.


This is a "base tenet" of MB that I, having lived through the "wonderful experience" of infidelity, disagree with.

You can't "protect your weakenessess" if you don't know what they are or if you even have any. This is sort of saying, imho, that you should have locked the barn door AFTER the horse got out, but you didn't know that the dumb horse would leave it's "cushy" barn, complete with all the essentials it needs (i.e., protection, food, water, etc.).

Granted, AFTER THE FACT, we learn about potential areas of weakness and what we can do protect against future occurances of "letting the horse out," but that does little to "excuse" the CHOICE to commit adultery. People are not horses. People assess situations and then CHOOSE their responses and courses of action. It is NOT, imho, a matter of "human nature," it is a matter of consciously choosing to disobey the clear prohibitive command of God. Now, if you and your wife don't believe in God, then His commands are "meaningless" and the only reason to believe that adultery might be "wrong" is self-determined. By that I mean that if an "external" standard of behavior is NOT authoritative, and the individual can define for themselve whatever they want to as their own standard of what is "right and wrong" for themselves, then they are free to choose something as being "right" for themselves even if someone else might consider it to be "wrong." In other words, the standards become "relative," not "absolute."



It was no accident. Getting raped against her will would be an "accident." The choice to engage in adultery is also often called a "mistake" by recovering Wayward Spouse. Granted it WAS a "mistake" to choose wrong behavior over good behavior, it was not a "mistaken" choice. It was a willful, purposeful, choice that they determined to be "right" for the moment, the month, or the years of the affair. They "redefined" right and wrong to enable them to ACT on the choice or the "feelings," to say nothing about the choice to render the VOWS of marriage meaningless and to repudiate the COVENANT of marriage as a willful choice "to forsake all others, until death do us part."




With all due respect to Steve, I strongly disagee with this opinion. More to follow after the next quotation.



"Under the influence" is the age old way to "excuse bad or criminal behavior, imho. I'm sorry, but I don't care if it is adultery or DUI or drugs or whatever, the person CHOOSES the "influence" and ACTS on the influence, and innocent people get hurt. This "under the influence" stuff is garbage to me. It provides a means to "avoid" personal responsibility for our choices and actions.


For "Class II," entangeled affairs, there IS an "influence" that is part of the MB philosophy. That influence is called "
Emotional Needs" and it's attendant "Love Bank." But here's where I acknowledge the realty Emotional Needs and who people respond emotionally to their being met by some or not being met by someone, BUT I also simultaneously believe that LOVE is a CHOICE, not simply an emotional reaction that then "excuses" our responsive choices. We CHOOSE. We are thinking beings who exercise our "free will" and make choices.



Once again I understand the emotional involvement and the "effects" of having needs met by someone other than your spouse, but I do not "buy into" the idea of "biological impulses" as the CAUSE of infidelity. The CAUSE is a lack of, or poorly accepted, STANDARDS and BOUNDARIES. It comes back to the issue of "submitting oneself" or not submitting ones self, BY CHOICE, to a set of standards that says "You will NOT commit adultery." Period. No matter what you are "feeling," you are the "god" of your life and you do not have the right to disobey the standard of FIDELITY in marriage.

People are NOT animals. People's actions are NOT "mandated" by biological impulses. We CHOOSE. We can act or not act on our feelings, but they do NOT control us so that we are not "responsible" for our actions. That's like saying, "Well, the devil MADE me do it, therefore I'm not really responsible for what I did." We are NOT talking about mentally ill people here, we are talking about people who knowing choose "wrong" because "it's what they want."



Count me in this group. I remained faithful to my vows and marriage for 6 years of celibacy while my wife was in her affair.
One of her friends told her that "no man could do that" so that I "must" be having an affair of my own. My wife, who DOES know me, told her, "no, he isn't and he won't." That doesn't make me a "saint." All it makes me is someone who believes in his vows and who believes in submitting my "will" to God's will, even when it hurts or when tempted.



I can't speak for you. I can only tell you that I didn't, and my wife and are now "Recovered." It took us almost 6 years, but we "got there."



No. I don't believe that for one minute.

Failure to recover is due to many factors, but there ARE things that must be done to enhance recovery and not detract from positive gains. I'm sure you already know many of them, but if not, they can be listed.

So let's just toss out the FIRST, and most important "thing to do" for recovery and for an eventual recovered marriage. The WS MUST have complete and total NO CONTACT with the former affair partner....for the rest of her life. Having said that, it is MOST important while IN recovery, and not as important (though still highly preferable) after the marriage has reached Recovered. The reason is by then, you are in love again, the Standards and Boundaries are clearly known and embraced, and TIME has put the affair partner into the light of 'reality' and the flaws are more prominent than the former fantasy.


God bless.

You should read Lexxy's posts somewhere in the middle of my recovery thread. She does a pretty good job of describing the slippery descent into adultery.

I fall somewhere in the middle of SH's simplistic explaination and your "evil intent" at this point, although at one point I was fully in the "evil intent" camp.

I don't believe my W set out to have an A and hurt me and damage our M. I do understand that she CHOSE to have one regardless of the foreseeable damage it would do to our marriage. She was fully aware of wrongness of her actions when she made the decision, but she was NOT at that time the same person I had lived with for 15 years. There were incremental steps in between fidelity and infidelity, and many rationalizations and mental gymnastics that lead the WS into an A. Does it excuse it? No, not in my mind. Nor does it justify it, but it does somewhat EXPLAIN it.

I spent months trying to get my head around this question, and to some extent still try. But I think the bottom line is that there IS NO justifyable, acceptable reason for infidelity. There isn't anything that is going to make this fall into place in the BS's head and have them coming away going "oh! ya, I get it now, it was because. . . (insert blather!)" It aint gonna happen.

I think this is what MyRev refers to when he states that the lot of the BS involves acquiring the taste for feces.

You get to decide. Is the lingering taste of [censored] in your mouth worth it? Right now, you're dealing with a strong taste, and it is overtaking your senses. With time, you just occasionally come across a bit of material stuck in your teeth and you spit it out and move on. You become a little more able to taste the good things in life untainted. But it does take time. Eventually, you'll just get worn out thinking about it so much because it really is futile.

However, if you do figure it out, be sure to share!

Try - I think it's a combination myself.

Little by little a WS moves a boundary and allows the OP to start meeting their needs - slowly, imperceptively at first.

But then there comes a point where they make a clear choice to commit adultery and they commit to the affair.

So IMO it's a bit of both - a failure to protect boundaries and even to recognise weaknesses coupled with an eventual decision.

That would be my wife's view as well.

I have stated numerous times that it was (Ibeleive) dr Frank Pittman stated it best by saying that the choice to commit adultry happens long before the act itself. The wayward is simply waiting for the time and place to present itself.
If it can be done with a measure of deniabilty, such as under the influence or whatever, so much the better!!

I don't buy into the "poor me" victum. It's just another lie!!!!

All blessings,
Jerry

I agree 100%.

Try, I'm in similar shoes. Coaching with SH for about a month. Understandably, I get the same advice from him. Here's the difference for me. The A didn't start when my wife seduced OM for the first time. The A started when she started talking to OM in a way, and about things, that would have sent me through the roof. She CHOSE to do that, no doubt about it, and did it for 12 months before she seduced him. I often asked her "what did you make up about me to make our M look so bad to justify what you were talking to him about"? I was shocked to hear the answers.

Two things about what SH says about her failure to protect against her weakness stay with me. It was her "weakness" and her "failure", not mine. We're all weak, but she chose to act on it. That is where she failed me. She has to believe she failed me, and I believe she does. No free pass there. For me, Recovery doesn't mean justifying what happened in the past, or letting her off the proverbial hook, simply due to an innate weakness. It's about having the strength of character to know it, see it, and avoid it in the future. To someone else's point, "the horse has left the barn already". For me, Recovery does mean learning to cope with what happened, and then learning exactly what led to it in order to avoid it. This applies to both her and me.

Sounds good on paper brother, and I am by no means there yet. Just thought I'd chime in because I think we're in the same place.

Hang in there.

Z-

I am a FWW and I completely agree that, at least in my case, it was an absolute clear choice I made. I didn't get suckered into it. It wasn't because I was weak. I made a choice ( horrible choice). Maybe I have more confidence in the ability of people to make choices but I have a hard time with "my weakness made me do it."

After reading bk's post, I also wanted to add that I don't agree that WS's are just living their lives waiting for the opportunity to come knocking at their door. It is a choice that is made, but not one they have been sitting around plotting.

Well I totally disagree that the wayward is looking for an opportunity.

Good grief.

NO WAY a wayward is thinking, "Hmmmm, someday I'm gonna want to commit adultery...Can't wait til I get my shot!"

No one says, "Here I go into the fog...I sure hope I destroy my family!"


Well I don't buy that either.

For my FWW it was a very definite choice! I had confronted her. I had confronted him. I had confronted them. Stop what you are doing. Some time after d-day she said "that is what I wanted and I didn't care who I hurt to get it" and "there is nothing more you could have done to prevent it". Doesn't that take your breath away? I doubt that many WS are that bluntly honest.

TTH,

Don't get discouraged. I can't express enough that I know how you feel. It is extremely frustrating at this stage to hear something that appears to be a "chicken exit" (IMHO) for your WS behavior.

Take heed to FH's post. There are some great words in there and what I truly like about his posts is that they are filled with hope and light that if the two partners are committed to R, it can happen!

You are in the middle of the "process". You don't have to solve everything in this very moment, nor understand it all. What worked for me was to step outside of it all and have the silent conversation about "what if this were true or had weight". For example, what if he has an addiction and that is causing him to act out? And then take it layer by layer. This is a person that I care about and therefore care if he is hurting from addiction. Never do I want to give him an excuse, but I do want to find some sort of understanding of where he is coming from.

Anyway, I am in the middle of the process too so I'm not an expert but I just wanted to pipe in and tell you that you are not alone and to hang in there!

The Harley explanation is not complete for me. Though, there are parts that carry weight.

I do believe Emotional needs can be very powerful. I do believe feeling good can be very addictive. I believe boundaries are critical. They insure the addictiveness never gets a shot at occurring.

If a boundary gets crossed, I also believe different people have different willpower and handle temptation differently. I also believe how strong or weak a person is when they are tempted can have an effect.

My struggle is I have to believe in my W's boundaries. I not only carry the risk for my lack of boundaries, but, also hers.

I agree. Everyone makes a series of choices, and those choices can go from ONSs to LTAs. And I agree with BK that it's a mixture of a number of things that make it easier for some to "choose" to go down that path. As is character weaknesses, starving for attention from lack of needs, and then selfishly going outside the marriage instead of doing the right things to get the needs met. Even if the other spouse is trying to meet the waywards needs at home this can happen. Or even the ones who could live their lives having their cake and eating it too, just because they are just that selfish and sinful.

I cheated on my spouse once when I kissed another man a few years back. And even though I had a few drinks in me, I knew I was making a sober choice to do what I did. And I wasn't looking for an affair, but I was vulnerable from lack of needs being met and I made the choice to let someone "try" to fill that for me. It was a bad choice. A selfish, disrepecting my spouse choice.

I am ashamed that I just didn't have the courage to stand up for my needs instead of taking a selfish, thoughtless and destructive choice instead. As someone said in another post earlier, it's like burning down the whole house when just the bathroom needed remodeling. People need not be so afraid of conflict, it leads to intimacy.




Well, I have to disagree, to a point, on this one. I think some people do allow theirselves to fall into affairs and they weren't looking for one beforehand. HOWEVER, there are some that do think if the right opportunity landed in their lap, that they would take it. And then you have the ones who do, on occassion, or all the time, look to cheat with whoever they can get.

It takes all kinds. Most know it's "wrong" because they hide it. They weren't just not protecting their weaknesses, they were protecting theirselves from the consequences of their choices to get what they desired at whatever expense. Some of these choices are actually weighed and thought out methodically.

The only part of "aware of my weaknesses" that I learned from MB is that before MB, I never would have thought twice about the dangers of spending recreational time with the opposite sex, or having personal conversations with men about their personal problems at home. I see how those things can sneak up on you and start people down the rabbit hole to an affair, but it's not like that with everyone. Some just do it. And even the ones who go down the rabbit hole that way, they are making a series of consious decisions on the way down, they know it's wrong, they lie and hide it. They make choices. Yes, they were aware they were making choices.

That's my 2 cents.

Hmmmmm, so why do you beleive that the ws would stop dropping those boundaries, unless it was to facilitate the temptations they are faced with?(ahead of time)

Boundaries,IMHO, are dropped to bring one closer to committment of the real ideation of actually commiting A. I don't think anyone starts out with the notion that " I beleive I'm capable of A."

It's and inch by inch process, and requires the wayward to to release and diminish every core boundary they ever had to accomplish the ultimate goal. Satan is pretty good at helping one to do this with marvelous but unfounded rationalizations.

Obviously, when one is involved with A, they are not exactly walking with "God".

BK, I never said one was "LOOKING" for the opportunity, but rather, "ALLOWING" the opportunity to present itself!

All of this occuring with the dropping of one boundary after another. I saw it in my FWW, but didn't know what to make of it at the time. I was clueless!!

All Blessings,
Jerry