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ENOUGH!!!!!!!!

I will remind folks AGAIN, we are here to MARRIAGE BUILD. If you have something helpful to share with TryTooHard on his thread, please do so. Thank you.

Maverick, have it your way. If one is not allowed to respond to an attack by someone else, AND you leave SOME references to that attack on the thread without also making them "disappear," there is little point in helping anyone when there may be disagreements in the advice offered.

Therefore, I will withhold further comments or suggestions so that no one has to "disagree" with anything.




TTH - my previous post will stand on it's own. Sincere best wishes for your recovery efforts. I will bow out of commenting further on the things that may be troubling you in your paid counseling. Just understand that the "tools" are to be used to help with recovery, not to be the "end all" of the process.

God bless.

I forgot to mention in my last post that my husband and I are also in counseling with Steve Harley, Jr.

The first thing we all discussed was "How I allowed it to happen". Meaning, my husband was suppose to tell me how he let himself get involved in infidelity.

A big part of my husband's response to that was that "he allowed others to enter his life through weak boundries founded in lack of awareness of my weaknesses".

We had to talk about this over several meetings because that was just not good enough for me, because I am positive that my husband was "aware" that screwing someone else while committed to me was wrong. And that my husband was not so weak and unaware that he didn't know what he was doing was wrong. Choices, choices, choices.

So while talking with Steve again this morning, this is what he told me. He said my husband was "under the influence". I didn't buy that either until he told me that "he was under the influence of his own selfishness". Now that I bought.

One more thing....a T/J of sorts.....

I just have to give snaps for FH's first post on this thread and many other posts on other threads that he's posted lately.

FH...I have seriously been impressed with the posts that you have made on several threads around here in the last few weeks. Kudos to you.

Thanks all who have responded. I think this is helping. Sorry I heven't been around to reply more, but I'm trying to save my a** business wise and need to spend time doing just that. I am reading when I get the chance, and will have more time later to reply. But keep it coming. And thank you again.

So, to dig a bit deeper. Do FWW and I have to agree on the "reason" the adultery "happened" for this recovery to work?

It seems like SH is hesitant to get to the next step of recovery until we come to consensus on this. I'm not sure if explaining away her intentional choice to do this with "failure to protect her weaknesses" isn't just sort of a cop out.

The fact is, when she decided to attract and pursue that Rat B*stard for affection or whatever, she chose to end our marriage. That is what has happened. Whether we "recover" or not, that once pure and sacred bond has been broken. Broken intentionally. Broken permanently.

I have such grief and anguish over the decisions which she made over an extended period of time. The fact is that she made these hurtful destructive decisions every minute of every day for 10 months or so plus the 4 or 5 months of continued deceit until eventually FINALLY spilling the beans to me a few weeks ago.

I am having real difficulty feeling anything for her besides sadness and pity. Certainly not the level of respect and hope that once existed in spades.

Please help me figure out how to figure this out...

Play this game with me:

Think up a reason you would accept. Think up a scenario, no matter how henious, where you would say "Oh! Ya, that adultery was reasonable and justified! THAT person was right in cheating on thier spouse!"

Keep thinking.

Come on, you can come up with at least ONE can't you?

Didn't think so.

I'm suprised SH is focusing so much on this point seeing as how most of his program seems devoted to ACTION. Understanding the reason for infidelity seems very much less important than figuring out how to recover from it and then building a good, affair-proof marriage.

Also, SH has admittedly never experienced infidelity. So no matter what he says, he says it as an OBSERVER. He does not, CAN NOT truly understand the pain of infidelity. On the one hand, that is a benefit to him, as he is "outside the box" so to speak, but on the other hand, he cannot actually know the turmoil. This leads him to be somewhat trite about the BS' pain in some respects, imo. But at the end of the day, the deal is you get to decide, you either try to get over it and move on with your W, or you don't.

If you want to recover your marriage, you are going to have to accept the idea that what your W did was wrong. That she made a mistake. It is her job to show you that she does view it as a mistake, and do whatever it takes to make you comfortable that she will not repeat that mistake. Really, the best you can hope for now is that there will never AGAIN be infidelity in your life. NOTHING you do is going to erase what has happened, with your W, or without her.

I think in some respects the search for understanding the reasons why is an attempt to UNDO the A. In the sense that if we can find some way to understand WHY this happened, then we will have found the excuse, the justification. That there was a reason for what was done that we can accept, and through accepting we will come to see that WS had cause.

Take murder for instance. There are all kinds of situations where we can accept that killing someone was just. Most of us can readily imagine many different situation where a human is killed by another human that does not make us view the killer as a horrible monster, or even that they made a mistake. It is not that way with adultery, is it? In each and every instance of adultery, you may realize that yes the marriage was a mess, yes the BS was a horrible spouse, but in the end, the same conclusion is always drawn: the WS was not RIGHT in cheating. They should have divorced, then moved on if they were so unhappy, if the M was that dysfunctional.

Fidelity is about self, really. Its about ones ability to keep one's solemn word. Infidelity at its heart is the failure of the WS. Its a very selfish act, and it reveals a very ugly truth about the WS. It really is not much about the BS, is it? Your W failed, there is no way around that. She is not what you thought she was. You have to come to terms with that, and decide if you think she has it in her to BECOME what she should have been. If you feel she is capable of learning from her utmost failure and overcoming it, or not.

I am always amazed at what people are expected to accept to get over affairs. If she failed to protect herself then there is nothing you can ever do to stop her from having another affair. She just might not be able to protect herself.

I could understand if a person talks to another person and starts to have feelings for them. I can totally understand how that can happen. You may even admire the OP and respect them and they make you feel good.

But I guess all of that goes out the door when you start having sex with them. Nobody on the planet can tell me a person starts to boff another person that they "fell into it". They know it is wrong but they don't care. It is a conscience desision to do it and nothing else.

But then we start hearing about "fog". That is the term used on this site to explain away premediated decisions to have sex with someone outside the marriage. I think everyone on the planet knows that if you start bumping uglies with another person it is wrong if you are married and they are not your spouse.

For me I could handle a EA or anything else she threw at me. But not a PA.


This is the part you have to get over if you are to stay married. I divorced my wife because we had dicussed this before. I told her if she had sex with another guy she would be telling me that she wants a divorce.

I guess maybe that is why she lied about it so much. To me for a guy it is the PA that is what is so hard to get over. The fact that your wife gives it up for another guy.

I think recovery depends on what kind of a person you are. I see people on here who can forgive anything no matter how bad it was and they can move forward. For some others that is hard to do.

I don't think it is impossible to recover but give yourself a break. This is very hard to do and it is going to take a while.

I read a very good book out there called "Torn Assunder" by David Carder. In it he is admannt that for the couple to recover, it is imperative that the WS understands the "Why" of the affair.

His reasoning behind this is fairly simple. How does one affair proof their M with new and stronger boundaries unless they understand what boundaries they lacked that led to the affair?

I think this is what SH is trying to do here. The recovered M has to have a new and better foundation so it won't come down like a house of cards in the first windstorm.

JMHO

All Blessings,
Jerry

Discussing the "why it happened" is an action and a very necessary part of recovery. I agree with Jerry's assessment about why. Some introspection from the WS to see how and why they did what they did is important so that they can tell us how they will protect those boundaries, that they didn't protect, in the future.

Steve understands that "recovery" has to happen before you can really work on the marriage.

Steve has more in store for Try than just the "why". That is just the first step in trying to recover. These steps have to be worked through, for me, to want to invest further in the marriage. My husband, and I at times, tried on some levels, to make the marriage work before we actually did the recovery work. And that wasn't working for me. Going through these steps will help tremendously I think.

TTH,

I still believe that it is a combination of things. Your WW met someone. She probably enjoyed the attention (as most of us do). She reciprocated to continue to get the attention she wanted (selfish). As she and OM built their relationship (meeting needs for attention), they started to enjoy the feeling of having that EN met. I think after the establishment of meeting at least one EN successfully, a PA follows as an act of solidarity? that they both recognize their pleasure in having their needs met.

I think it starts without intention...but there is a level of recognition that is lacking before you have been through adultery. My brother doesn't believe that he or his wife would EVER cheat. I believe they are both susceptible and moreso because they wouldn't notice the subtle shift from "just friends" to "more" soon enough to stop it.

Yes, you can stop an A anytime...before it happens or during...but the awareness that you are slipping into a dangerous space where your needs may be met by another isn't always present prior to REALLY LOOKING at how affairs begin. In that sense, we are all "victims" of ignorance if we don't see the beginning of a potential A. Once it has started, I think it's harder to say no.

Our best protection against an A is to recognize that we are ALL capable of following that path and that we must ALWAYS guard against it. I'm not terribly religious, but it's easy to see how some might regard the temptation as the work of the devil. And I really believe that it is the temptation combined with the opportunity that is our downfall.

And btw Try....I personally plan to go slow through these steps and not rush through them. I think it's important to take your time and make sure that you are comfortable that each step is worked through enough to get all your questions answered, and that you're comfortable with it, so that there's not much lingering later down the road.

All that lingering stuff, among many other things, is what kept my walls up and made it very difficult to give or accept love deposits. And of course it will take time to work through all the emotional turmoil, but I at least want to do it slow and right.

I think it is very important for people to realize not all affairs are of the rabbit hole kind, where they move their boundaries little by little until they end up in someone else's bed.

There are people out there who go looking for the cheap thrills, or who fantasize about having an affair and will jump on the opportunity if it presents itself.

I still think, and I always will, that the vast majority of people cheat primarily for the thrill of screwing someone new or different.

That's why people sleep around when they are single, and I don't think a wedding ceremony automatically erases those impulses.

I still think much of this talk of "needs", "attention", and "fog" are used by WS's to alleviate some of their guilt, and by BS's to convince themselves that their WS wasn't as awful as they actually were.

It almost always comes down to, quite simply, "gettin' some".

The truth sucks.

Hi Try,

To me, making a “conscious, sober choice” is the same thing as “failing to protect weaknesses.” In other words, “failing to protect weaknesses” is not a less severe statement (the way I hear it) than “making a conscious, sober choice” to cheat.

Failing to protect oneself IS making an intentional choice. To avoid a future A, the person MUST make a choice to protect his or her weaknesses.

I’m having a little trouble finding the words to explain it exactly the way I mean it. “Protecting one’s weaknesses” is a much bigger statement that makes a much bigger impact on me, as an FWW, than if it were merely a “cop out” statement.

Protecting one’s weaknesses is a very serious practice that everyone should be vigilant about. "Guard your mind." "Guard your heart." Don’t let your guard down, ever.

Obviously, some people are more vigilant than others. There might be as many reasons "why" as there are people. I'm already dizzy from trying to explain this much. I'll leave trying to figure out "why" to another post on another day!

Hope this makes sense!
God bless,
Rose55

IMHO, the Harley's paint the picture that anyone could fall for an affair...it is a matter of failing to protect weaknesses, not a statement of the persons character or integrity. I disagree on both points. There are some people out there that would never, ever, never have an affair. They wouldn't do that to the one they made a promise to. I know people and I am such a person. Given the same set of circumstances as any and every WS or FWS on these boards...some people would not cheat.

This expression has rubbed people the wrong way on these boards. I am not saying that I am better than anyone else here...just that I would never act in this way. I see the benefit to recovery to look at things like the Harley's do...it makes the BS identify with the WS a bit. I just do not agree and have known and do know many people that share the same standards and beliefs.

Mopey and Krazy...

I think you're right that for some the infidelity is about newness, excitement, and "getting some." BUT, if we look at those motivations, can't they almost always be boiled down to some kind of unmet need?

Newness...that's a cop-out. I'm sorry but nobody NEEDS newness. They look to escape their routine or to find the things that lack. Excitement...they are getting a need for admiration, conversation, physical attractiveness and/or affection met. Maybe even recreational companionship. Getting some...the need for SF is met.

I have a friend who is/was a serial adulterer (I no longer talk with him, btw, due to my new understanding of A). I met him when he was married. He tried to "hook up" with me and I rebuked his effort and told my H. It's a long story and I don't want to tj to explain why I spoke with him after that, but it related to my Hs A.

Anyway...he and I talked at length about his As. He had lots of ONSs, a few that lasted several months, and one that lasted for a couple of years that was mainly an EA. He could be called a player and at first glance you would think he was just in it to get some. But he confided that while SF was a need that wasn't met at home, he also had a strong need for affection, admiration, and physical attraction. These were things that he got out of his As. And he agreed that he was "looking" for the next opportunity to cheat. It was premeditated and his justification was that it was about HIM getting HIS needs met. Since his W was unwilling or unable to fulfill those needs, he went elsewhere.

His M, btw, ended. His W had an A as well. I think they had really both withdrew their investments in their M a long time ago.

My point...yes, some people do it willingly, but it's not as simple as just wanting to get laid. It is meeting a need that they are not getting met within their M.

The thing to realize, I think, is that we MUST work to let our spouses know when our needs are not being met, and thus, protect ourselves from wanting to look elsewhere.