Hi mkeverydaycnt -

“just that I would never act in this way.”

I believed this about myself for 46 years before I cheated. I said the same thing before my A, and I have read other FWs write the same thing.

“I...have known and do know many people that share the same standards and beliefs.”

It’s one thing to have standards and beliefs, and another to stay vigilant about following them. I also had (have) standards and beliefs, which I made a conscious choice not to follow by not protecting myself (mind and heart) and my marriage.

“Given the same set of circumstances as any and every WS or FWS on these boards...some people would not cheat.”

That’s what I mean by “some people are more vigilant than others.” Do you feel like at least one reason you would not cheat is because you very carefully and purposely “protect your weaknesses?’ I’ll define “weaknesses” as “human frailties,” (selfishness, greed, lust, for example).

God bless,
Rose

The reason I wouldn't cheat is because it requires a disregard of your vows and morals to do so. I would not do that to another person...let alone the one I chose to love, honor and protect. If you want to call that "protecting my weaknesses" so be it....but I do not have a weakness that would allow me to act in such a fashion.

TTH - I look at the Harley model a little like this. There are two general things that can keep a person from having an A. The first is willpower. Just don't do it. The second is to never be in a situation emotionally or physically that will allow you to have an A.

I like to look at things in terms of numbers. So let's say you need a total of 100 to avoid having an A. I suppose some people may total 100 on willpower alone. For those people, failing to protect your weaknesses (being in situations emotionally or physically that will allow an A) is irrellevant.

The problem is most people don't total 100 on willpower alone. (I would say Harley's research prooves this out) So say they total 80. They need to total another 20 from protecting their weaknesses (never being in a situation emotionally or physically that will allow an A). So if they reach a point in their life that they only total 15 from protecting their weaknesses, they are now susceptible to an A, because their total is now 95, and if an A happens, it is because they failed to protect their weaknesses. That conclusion is made because that is what changed in the person pre A and during their A. Their total from protecting their weaknesses dropped from 20 to 15. Their willpower didn't change one bit.

I suspect what you are struggling with, (as most BH's do) is either "why was my WS's total from willpower only 80 to begin with" or "why did her total from willpower not increase to cover the shortage from failing to protect her weaknesses."

IMHO, these two items are just the facts of the frailty of human beings. I don't think willpower ever rises, usually only falls. (I can give several real world examples of this, if neccessary). I also don't think anyone's willpower ever totals 100. Yes, some may be 99 or 95 or very high, but not 100.

I personally don't think these frailties are evidence of being morally corrupt, but some do.

For me, I don't think its a matter of convincing yourself. Either you think people have these frailties or you don't. For those that do have them either you think that is evidence that they are morally corrupt or you don't.

Anyway, Harley thinks they do have them, so he chalks up an A to failure to protect weaknesses.

Mkeverydaycnt,

O.k. - I was just curious. It could be a matter of semantics and/or definitions. It's just that I also very strongly believed that I didn't have a "weakness" that would allow me to cheat. Maybe I was fooling myself. So, I guess now that once again brings the discussion back to the "whys."

Thanks for responding.
God bless,
Rose

MEDC - I couldn't agree more.

It is my belief that there are some people, sadly a vast minority I guess, that simply will not cheat. I believe I am one of those people. When I was single and had no vow in place to protect (other than to myself, morally), I had several opportunities for sex with married women. And did not go there.

One in particular that comes to mind was a young extremely attractive and engaging wife of a casual friend I had. We got along well, and there was an attraction to her. when she made it clear that she was interested in screwing around with me, my opinion of her plummeted. I no longer found her at all attractive beyond a simple objectification of her physical attributes. But when she revealed her true character to me, I lost all respect for her, thought of her as a common wh*re and actually stopped hanging out with them both. Now bear in mind that I am by no means a prude, but that type of person has just always been completely despicable to me.

Perhaps this is why I struggle so to find a way to see beyond this flaw, as I see it, in FWW's character. It may sound harsh, but it's my reality. I'm finding it difficult to establish even a level of respect for her now.

She says that's not who she is. That it was an aberration of character not her true character. Still I find myself questioning this. I want to believe it. I want to be able to feel deep love for her again, and hope I can. But I still come up with "she did it".

Fact is you either do or you don't and she did. In fact went to great lengths to do it and deceive me about it for a long time.

Ahh, if I just weren't such a hopeless romantic.

I hope that we can be more than a marriage for the sole sake of our 3yo son, with me living in a constant state of Loving Detachment. Plan A aint supposed to be a lifelong strtegy. Sometimes the prospect of that seems more depressing than divorcing, and ruining my son's family.

I really thought our marriage was based in large part on breaking the cycle of broken homes that we both came from. Her from divorce due to infidelity and me from the untimely death of my father at 49yo...

Anyway, again, thanks for all who are taking the time to discuss this topic. It's where I happen to be at right now, and it helps to know I'm not there alone...

Using that logic, nearly everything you've ever done, from important milestones to mundane, everyday activities could be tied to needs. You need to feel clean, so you brush your teeth, for example.


I say newness is the truth, and the "needs" are the cop-out. What about the need for SF with someone new? That's a biggie for a lot of people...big enough to keep many people single. How's the spouse going to fulfill that one? They can't. People, especially men, enjoy sex with new partners. Period. Many choose not to give up that thrill just because they signed a marriage license.



In my experience, when a "player" starts talking about emotions, affection, etc., he's REALLY trying to get some. A last-ditch effort, if you will.

And, of course, the "lack of SF at home" argument is right out of the WS handbook, and rarely true. Most of his "unmet needs" could've been met without actually having sex. Do you think any of those other routes would've interested him? Believe me, when an average guy's getting his knob polished, there isn't a single thought about affection or admiration anywhere between his ears.

Yeah, I know. "What about EA's?"

It's a PA with logistical issues.


ANY sex could be described as a need(s) being met. Are you saying that "just wanting some" is a myth?

If so, I find it odd that EVERY WS chooses sex to meet those needs...even needs besides SF. There are alternatives. If it isn't just about the sex, then WHY does it ALWAYS involve sex? If it's usually about affection, conversation, compliments, etc., shouldn't PA's be a relatively rare thing, given the risk of disease and pregnancy?

It's about the sex, or there wouldn't be sex. Period.

RP - I respectfully disagree with your position. I don't see it at all as willpower and avoiding the environment.

To me willpower is a strength that's required to avoid doing something that you have a natural inclination to do. As in someone who has a natural propensity to cheat would have to exercise willpower if they did not want to do it. For someone who is fundamentally opposed to adultery, willpower would be irrelevant. It simply is not in their nature to cheat.

As for environmental factors, again I go back to the fundamental strength of character or morality. For the inherent cheater, the environment is a risk. For the non-cheater it is not. I believe the decision would be the same. No matter how easy or tempting the opportunity to be unfaithful is, one will choose to do it, one will not.

It is this very belief that at this point (admittedly early on in recovery), I find it impossible not to see as a flaw in FWW. It troubles me to my core that it may in fact be who she was and is.

Is it possible that there can be a genetic propensity to such things? Hence the inability less than 7 years into marriage, for her to break that infidelity cycle?

I hope my son can do it as it has now spanned another generation...

Really sad...

If unmet needs were the cause of affairs, there would be a lot more affairs. That's just ONE of the reasons. Lack of willpower and morals come into play.

I know people who have never had affairs even though there needs were not being met. There are a lot of BSs here that can say that.

Some people don't get their needs met in a marriage and they don't cheat.

TTH,

I believe many of the things you say. I've been in similar situations that you have stated. We have opportunities and did not jump at them.

Are you absolutely positive you can state never?

I have thought all my life that I could say never. I even think I can say never right now. However, I have a seed a doubt. Just enough to make me say I can't say never.

Start backwards. Not from where you are now but situations in life that could be. Start with some of the extremes and work backwards to where you are right now.

You will likely be happy with what you see about yourself. You will also likely have the first seed of doubt you have ever had. You will still lean towards never(I do) but you will get a little more understanding of human nature.

Now where does your wife fit into this.

Krazy - I like what you're saying.

My FWW has told me recently that "it wasn't about the sex at all". That in fact it was really bad sex. (How F-d up is it that the fact that my wife chose to F some scumbag who did a lousy job of F-ing her, is in some bizarre way a relief to me...)

But I question this not being about the sex part. Why then did she continue to envite him over to our home for F-ing?...

I am convinced that for RB, it was always and only about the sex. He made a play for her. She knew it and chose to fulfill his sick and twisted desire, over my sacred and honorable committment to her life.

I can't get past the thought that she was unable to make the right choice due to a fundamental lack of character or whatever we're calling those who will do it...

Well said, Mopey.

Hence my struggle to understand WW's true character...

I agree that meeting needs are only ONE of the things that may motivate an A...but I still stick with the idea that meeting needs is the main motivator. I think that even the most mundane of behaviors are motivated by needs. If not, then why do we do things at all? A bit philosophical for this discussion, but really...it does all boil down to meeting needs, however menial.

Krazy...I love your description of the thoughts of a man while being satisfied...I agree, for MOST men, the EA is just the logistics required to get the PA...for MOST men. My H has very little need for SF and it is actually a need that goes unmet for me. His LTA was fed by a need for conversation. The OW wanted SF so he occasionally would have sex with her so that he could continue to have his needs met...but it wasn't a need he had. It was a need SHE had. I wouldn't believe this except that it has been consistent with our marriage from the start.

Mopey...I agree that there are other factors in having an A. I am a BS and I had MANY unmet needs over the past 11 years of marriage and lots of opportunities to stray and didn't. I chose not to. But I also chose to live without those needs being met. Some people may feel that they cannot live without having their needs met. I think those people tend to be a bit more selfish (thus that most WS are more selfish than their BS).

Try...This discussion is awesome as far as really trying to think about the motivation for an A. But I still think that you will have to come to grips with the fact that you may never really know what drove your W to make the choice to cheat. I think you need to decide (and maybe now is too early to do this), whether or not you can recover your marriage if you never really understand the WHY or the HOW of her A. Can you accept that she may have an internal flaw that allowed the A?

TTH,

I agree with you 100%. You have stated it beautifully.

It's hard for me to wrap my brain around because I would never do this. I certainly would get a divorce before sleeping with anyone else. (or flirting or talking to or whatever)

The reason I can say this is because it is something that I totally believe in and am passionate about. It's a promise I made to my H, a moral and character issue, and I loved him and cherished him and cared for him. (still love him, but don't see him the same anymore.)

We've been togehter for 17 years, married for 15. He had an EA, although I am fairly certain physical activity was involved regardless of the denials.

I am a year post A, started one year ago last week and exposed a year in June. My...how the emotional rollercoaster spins...i am at a totally different point now and question my staying with him and giving him another chance when there are so many questions regarding his behavior still to this day.

We are where we are...good thing we have this place to come too.

It'll never make sense...no matter how we try to put the pieces together....i tend to believe it's because I would never do this and so I can't understand it for any reason. Plus, I am on the other side of it, so that makes it even harder to get.

Hang in there..you seem like a good person..

TJD, I have never said never. I believe I put it in this post, but it may have been another.
At any rate, I would not say that there is a 100% certainty that I never would.

If Jessica Alba offered me a Billion dollars tax free to shag, It would be pretty tempting. I would consult my wife first, however.

If Jessica Said it would have to kept secret, then I don't know.

I guess what I'm saying is that I'm basing my statement on how I have lived and the choices I have made thus far. It's really all I have to go on, but the evidence is pretty clear. I'm not a cheater. Can't say with 100% certainty that I never will be, but I think I'm about as close as one can get...

Your point IS well taken though.

Thanks for chiming in.

Well, I don't know if its my position as much as I think its what the Harley model is trying to convey, but, that's cool.

I don't know that I can reach the same conclusion about willpower. For me, its not about what you are naturally inclined to do. Its about leading with logic and/or principles rather than feelings and/or urges when making decisions. But again, its fine with me if you disagree.

We basically end up at the same point, just on different sides in terms of conclusions.

FWIW, I don't think you have to solve this now. Your 3 weeks out from your WW admitting it was an PA and you're trying to decide if you have a fundamental road block to recovery. Why? If you answer this question and you determine her A is not because of a failure to protect weaknesses, are you going to quit working at it? If I have learned anything from this whole ordeal, its to stop trying to solve what I think will be next year's problem today.

Don't you think it might work out better if you wait to decide if you can ever overcome this flaw after you work the program with an open mind for about six months. I can't help but think if your wife is truly repentent and truly works the program an answer will come to you.

Just my two cents

This is what I struggle with also Try. I warned my WW repeatedly that the OM in our sitch was a player and I guaranteed her he had women on the side due to his living arrangements (1000 miles from his W while he travels from job to job every couple years) and I guaranteed her he would try something with her. One of the guys she works with even warned her early on that OM was "always fishin" and WW would always say "I'm a big girl and would end our friendship if he tries something". Yeah right.

Even though I would kill to be in the same place as you with where my wife would be actively participating in recovery (I'm not there yet), I still struggle with whether I even want to try.

I read in "after the affair" that you shouldn't make any future decisions while the emotions are so raw. You can always divorce later, but don't rush into that. That's what I'm doing and it seems like good advise in your sitch also.

RP - very incisive.

I think we may be dealing with semantics a bit on this rather than a fundamental difference of opinion.

As for trying to solve this now, I don't think I'm expecting to categorically determine the answer immediately. I am aware that it's a process, and I am hanging in there making an impressive effort if I do say, at recovering.

We had a very romantic evening last night sharing cheap champagne and strawberries in the hot tub, etc... And we have our regularly scheduled Friday night dinner together, and I might say that it tends to get a little hot in the kitchen if you know what I mean.

We talk very openly, I am very supportive of her as I've always been, she knows that I am truly her one and only, and I embrace that role and do everything I can to be the best husband and father I can be.

But the questions are in my mind. I'm certainly not looking for a quick fix. I know that's unrealistic, but this forum has been there for me so many times and in so many ways that I wanted to let those who I have come to trust help me process this as I proceed down the long and narrow road of recovery.

I think part of what I'm trying to understand, perhaps a better Q for SH on Monday is why if I don't answer his question of why my wife committed adultery with "she failed to protect her weaknesses" he indicates that we need to agree to that or we can't get to the next step in the process.

I value the insight from this community and know that what I will get will help me.

So I thank you and all the others who are sharing their thoughts and perspectives. Clearly I'm not the only one who is feeling this and struggling to understand the why, so hopefully this thread will benefit others as well.

I just think that the "why" can not possibly be a simple as I am being asked to believe.

I've got to run for a few hours, time to get cookin ;-) But I will certainly check back in later.

I hope you all will feel free to carry on the discussion.

And again, Thank you.

MEDC,

You said
But, you would have no problem inflicting pain on someone would you? You would not have a problem, even to a spouse YOU made a vow to love and protect, inflicting pain and suffering would you. Your vows didn't say "I will protect you unless you..."

Affairs inflict pain, so does physical or emotional abuse. So does abandonment, many things do so.

Given my background I KNOW you could be made to do about anything with the proper incentive. I am glad that you think you would never have an affair and even better that you have not,but that fact does not award you nor I Sainthood.


Given that you don't agree with the MB approach, why are you here on a private board supported by MB? What do you bring to the party other than YOUR opinions based on your very limited experience? You are indeed entitled to your opinion? However the common opinion offered to a BS is "kick them to the curb", which doesn't really do much for saving a marriage does it? Where is your plan written up and published so that people can choose between MB and your plan?

In the world I work in, it is fair game to shoot down a plan, criticize it, prove it wrong, but the person doing it darned well better produce an alternate that rises to the standards of the previous plan and surpass it.

Your honesty doesn't bother me. Your negativity about MB coupled with a lack of better alternatives and data does.

Please think about it. You could be an agent for some great changes, but you need a plan.

JL

JL,

I don't agree with some of the MB principals, but I am here anyway because I joined another infidelity message board (think purple) and was banned. It was soon after d-day. You think I'm angry here? You should've seen me back then.

I've done some searching, and this was the only other decent infidelity message board on the internet. It's not overrun by unremorseful scumbag WS's, but it does have lots of traffic. It does no good to talk, or even vent, if nobody is there to read it.

So, although I may not be a perfect fit for this board, it's the only one I've got right now.

TTH,

I realize you are struggling with this. I will repeat my previous post. You are not required to "believe" anything. I think what you are seeing is SH working on your W to change her perspective on many things. Her perspective MUST change for you to have a chance in believing that your marriage can be recovered/rebuilt/started anew. Your call on the symmantics.

At the end of the day, what YOU have to decide is if you are going to stay with your W or you are not. It is/was/will be your call. I will say, that if WS/FWS does not change something, it would be very hard for me to stay in the marriage. I dumped a fiance' for that reason. She wasn't going to change. So I left.

I will also say that I agree with RP. Let me offer you my thoughts.

You said How about we go a step further. Let's argue that people have a propensity to be sexually attracted to the opposite sex AND we have sex drives. This is NOT a propensity to cheat although if one is married then allowing someone to fulfil our desires sexually will lead to cheating if we are not married to them.

I will bet good money, you have a propensity to be sexually attracted to women, MEDC does, I do, most folks do. I will make it more general, people for the most part have a propensity to be sexually attracted to other people. The slippery slope is from sexual attraction to cheating. Is not the idea of cheating itself (with the notable possibility of someone enjoying inflicting pain).

There is also a propensity for some people to be emotionally attached to other people. In and of itself it is not bad. But, when married and then it is not acceptable other than to the spouse. Do we have that propensity? Yes, you do, I do, MEDC does, most folks do.

It is these base level propensities that allow Harley to claim we all have the potential to cheat. He is not claiming that your W, my exFiance, or anyone else craves the act of cheating, it is in our base needs we don't protect ourselves intellectually from meeting those base needs by cheating.

The truth is TTH, even if your W figures out the why, changes her approach to life to protect her weaknesses, you still may not want to be married to her. Her doing these things is ONLY useful to you IF you decide to remain in the marriage. You don't have to swallow anything, believe anything. You just have to decide what YOU want or need to do. The work you are doing with SH will offer your W paths to protect you, and her from addressing her propensities in such harmful ways. Is that useful to you??? Your call.

At the end of the day, it is and always will be your call. You have total control of the situation with regard to whether this marriage suits you.

It is my opinion that MB offers to you and your W ways to address issues, IF you decide you want to address them or she wants to address them. It is organized, it recognizes the commonality of affairs and the decisions to have them. It recognizes the things you will hear, she will say, and how you will react. But, in the end it does not require you to "believe" anything. It simply offers you a path and time to assess your position and what the future might/could look like.

I hope something I have said is of use to you.

God Bless,

JL