Hi Jayne, how ya doing? I blew it on the other board....!

Hi Stella! I was just playing catch-up on that thread when I saw it had the mods' attention! How are you doing? I'm glad to hear you're feeling like you're recovering from treatments. The thing I deleted was silly: I just said that one time I gave my mom a big huge button that read...

"Complain... God will let you live longer!"

I'm not sure why I find that funny. I'm pretty sure it boggled mom's mind too! LOL

You are welcome on my thread. I was just about to ask a question anyhow, and I'd love your opinion: I'm on a trip right now with H, and tomorrow is the last day of our conference. Then we're taking the next 6 days to just drive around NZ before flying back to the U.S. I'm hoping this time can bring us closer together. One of his ENs is RC.

My question is, would it be a good idea to avoid all relationship talk during this time, like we often advise ppl in Plan A?

Yes, I need that button!!!!

Your question....Depends on what you mean by relationship talk. Are there a few burning relationship things you need to talk about?

I wish you could talk to him about anything without reservation. But how do you talk with him and what do you like to talk with him about. Is there a need to discuss things about the relationship? I mean, have you been putting off talking of those things?

I think there is a balance in conversation. Like:

50% light hearted talk and joking around
10% deep things
5% relationship fixing talks
10% talk about logistical issues like where to eat, etc
15% silence
10% doing things.


I gave this as just an example. But you can fill in the amounts. Try different percentages of each on him each day. See which day is best. Conversation wise that is....

What kind of relationship talks would you want to do?:

Healing relationship talks
Light hearted loving reltionship talks
Heavy relationship issues and problems.
Problemsolving relationship talks
Showing love in the relationship talks, like remembering the good times together.

gotta go sleep now. Have a good trip!

I think I'd keep it superficial. Just tell yourself you're using this week to regenerate, and you're turning off all your issues, and maybe you can even try to recreate the feelings you had for each other back when you were dating and trying to please each other. Tell yourself you'll pull out the issues next week and look at them after a week 'off'. You owe yourself a fun week, and it will do your marriage good. Don't make it a 'working' vacation.

Jyane, there's a lot of good stuff here that I'm looking forward to coming back and talking with you about once things settle down here.

Thanks for the list Stella! I think in terms of lists too, and I think that's why your posts are helpful to me.

Shortly after I posted, H came in and we left to meet up with the ppl in our group, so that's why I didn't post any more. I'll try for some balance in the conversation, like your list.

I hope you're feeling better today!

Good idea, yes I thought it might be good to not make it a "working" vacation. But my tendency is to do that (make it a working vacation) because that's how I connect, by discussing issues. "Small talk" doesn't appeal to me in the least. But I know H likes it, and I can see that I need to develop some trust with him, so that he feels safer having conversations.

I think it would be good to do as you say, not bring up "problems" or "issues" until after some trust has been re-established, after I've made some deposits, after some history of non-DJing conversation and after some RC and SF. I will try to work in more of a balance in the convos, like Stella's list, instead of it all being superficial small-talk. Some planning for the future should be easy, with all that's going on H wants to discuss that.

I don't see H being willing to do any of the things mentioned in the first "friend of good convo" but I'll let you know how that goes.

more replies to Stella:


My tendency would be, whenever there's some quiet time alone, to want to talk about anything about the relationship! It's like, where my mind automatically veers toward. It's probably a real LB to H, and he may have learned to dread those times.

50% of light hearted talk and joking around, at first seemed like a lot to me. But I can see that with ppl I feel comfortable with, there is a lot of that going on. I feel like we've already worked out problems and established trust, and so the joking around feels natural. I could see that happening with H, and sometimes that is how things are.

Probably the areas we are missing is the 10% deep things and the 5% relationship fixing talk. These are the things I would probably want the most, and he would probably want to avoid the most. I think for now I will try to not bring up these things and work on the rest, until he feels "safer" and more comfortable. Then maybe add in some of the deep things talk.

Probably the relationship talk I would want right now, is discussion of our ENs and LBs (like, discussing the questionnaires), discussing the concept of 15 hours/week of UA, and especially how my major EN is conversation/quality time. But I don't see that happening in a positive manner any time soon.

"Showing love in the relationship talks, like remembering the good times together."

I could see this happening in a positive way. I will try to incorporate this. Thanks!

Hi ears, I look forward to hearing from you about these things. But no pressure I know you have a lot on your plate right now.

I don't have anything useful to say re. what to do about your H taking one DD out to CA, and him expecting you to fly out with the other DD around the 4th of July. My thoughts are with you though.

Hi jayne, you didn't go crazy, I wrote a short post on my thread, and a longer one here. I should update my thread, I think this was really what it took at a time I was ready to see how I would complain but then settle for less than real change from myself. For example, we share finances, so in a very real sense I paid for H's IB trips instead of taking real action to protect myself from his IB.


I hear you, that your goal was to get clarity, not to assume. I was just giving one possibility so you could see if that fits.



And that may well be a valid approach for you. For me, jayne, I found that I was broken as a person, and to heal, I had to treat myself so much better than I had been. Part of that was treating H also, like myself, as someone that I was really excited to get to know, too. That felt so honest and great in action, too. Like that 1st Friend of Conversation. I don't think that yes-no questions are the way to get there.

I don't have as much time as I'd like this morning, but I wanted to let you know that I found what you had to say really interesting. What about visualizing great two way conversations with your H? SHaring your vision with him, too?

I hear you say "incapable". That may be true for some folks. I think it's much more likely that he is resentful or otherwise needs space, like if you are taking on his thinking and feeling, steamrolling over his boundaries, that he may have lost his natural need to express his thoughts and feelings. It talks about that dynamic in both How to Improve Your Relationship withoi\ut talking about it and The Dance of anger What do you think about that? Is is something that you'd like to ask your H about, whether he expresses himself less now that he's with you, and why he thinks that is?

help .........

I feel a depression coming on.

I know it's cliche and I so hate saying it, but one reason is prolly cus I missed 2+ days of ADs on the trip back home. This morning (Monday) was the first time I'd taken them since... Friday morning NZ time? Which would be Thursday afternoon my home time? Something like that.

Also things are so up in the air as far as moving, and whether I'll be able to find a job if we move. And while I was gone the Bad Guys had a mtg and undid some of the supportive stuff that happened right before my trip.

I hate being depressed. There's so much to do and I feel paralyzed by fear and depression.

When I feel up to it I'll post an update on how things went with H on the trip. Not bad.

replying to myself here...

in a possible attempt to cheer myself up, here is something I just received in email:
****************************
THE NEXT SURVIVOR SERIES

Six married men will be dropped on an island with one car and
3 kids each for six weeks.

Each kid will play two sports and either take music or dance classes.

There is no fast food.

Each man must take care of his 3 kids; keep his assigned house clean, correct all homework, and complete science projects, cook,do laundry, and pay a list of 'pretend' bills with not enough money.

In addition, each man will have to budget in money for groceries each week.

Each man must remember the birthdays of all their friends andrelatives, and send cards out on time--no emailing.

Each man must also take each child to a doctor's appointment, adentist appointment and a haircut appointment.

He must make one unscheduled and inconvenient visit per child to theUrgent Care.

He must also make cookies or cupcakes for a social function.

Each man will be responsible for decorating his own assigned house, planting flowers outside and keeping it presentable at all times.

The men will only have access to television when the kids are asleep and all chores are done.

The men must shave their legs, wear makeup daily, adorn himselfwith jewelry, wear uncomfortable yet stylish shoes, keep fingernails polished and eyebrows groomed.

During one of the six weeks, the men will have to endure severe abdominal cramps, back aches, and have extreme, unexplained mood swings but never once complain or slow down from other duties.

They must attend weekly school meetings, church, and find time at least once to spend the afternoon at the park or a similar setting.

They will need to read a book to the kids each night and in the morning, feed them, dress them, brush their teeth and comb their hair by 7:00 am.

A test will be given at the end of the six weeks, and each father will be required to know all of the following information: each child's birthday, height, weight, shoe size, clothes size and doctor's name. Also the child's weight at birth, length, time of birth, and length of labor, each child's favorite color, middle name, favorite snack, favorite song, favorite drink, favorite toy, biggest fear and what they want to be when they grow up.

The kids vote them off the island based on performance. The last man wins only if...he still has enough energy to be intimate with his spouse at a moment's notice.

If the last man does win, he can play the game over and over and over again for the next 18-25 years eventually earning the right To be called Mother!

After you get done laughing, send this to as many females as you
think will get a kick out of it and as many men as you think can
handle it. Just don't send it back to me.... I'm going to bed.


Suppose there was no such thing as a hypothetical situation........

jayne, I'm sorry you forgot your ADs. What about some extra self-care, like good nutrition, exercise, and lots of extra lovin' from your H until they kick back in?

Here's some hugs to get you started ((((jayne))))

Oh, and extra sleep

Thanks ears...

The sleep thing is problematic. Still on a weird schedule thanks to NZ.

(Also, tried driving for the first time today since NZ... told myself "make sure to drive on the correct side of the road..." fortunately we live on a cul-de-sac with little traffic. I drove down to the neighbor's where the kids were, to tell them I was going out to run errands. I pulled over to park on the side of the road, and was wondering why the car in front of me was parked pointing in the wrong direction... I was sure *I* was right, and figured they had parked in a hurry and didn't care that they were parked pointing the wrong way... until I looked around at all the other cars parked in the neighborhood...)

Ah yes, sleep. The first night I tried drinking some wine. But by the time the kids were in bed etc, the drowsy effects had worn off and I was awake so long that I was able to wake H up with the sunrise with SF.

Last night I eventually tried taking a muscle relaxant I had left over from who knows when. It made me sleepy for a few minutes but didn't last long enough to actually fall asleep.

The past two mornings I've gotten up to fix the kids breakfast after they had been chasing each other around without H waking up. Usually he's the one who fixes breakfast. Since I've been working I've been feeling "entitled" (bad, I know) to having him fix breakfast. I guess since school's out it's only fair that I do my share now. But he's been able to go to sleep at a reasonable-ish hour.

May since I took AD this morning, tonight will be better.

Other self-care issues: during this trip I got used to eating a lot more food, and a lot richer food. Especially during the conference, I ate every time they fed us in case I wasn't able to get any more food any time soon. During our car trip we ate reasonable breakfasts and lunches in the camper, but we still ate dinner in restaurants and I ate dessert etc since it was a vacation. We also got the occasional snacks while shopping.

So now I've gained almost 10 pounds! And I'm getting hungry a lot more often, especially in the wee hours of the morning. I've even been making myself milkshakes after midnight.

And I'm wasting too much time online, after having limited access.

One self-care thing I'd really like to have done, is to get the bedroom clutter cleaned up. I'm behaving a lot like MrCat in that respect - papers everywhere, hard to walk even, and I feel overwhelmed. I've even tried FlyLady's 10 minute thing, I can barely stand 2 minutes. Instead I come to MB to see if anyone's posted anything new every 5 minutes.

Poor H wouldn't live like that if not for me. Like MrCat, I don't like it when someone moves my stuff around. So I really need to be the one to clean it up, so I'll know where it is. And so much of it is work related, only I can figure out what needs to be done with it.

Hi there Jayne,

I hate it when my office looks like a hurricane hit it. Papers and lot of other stuff all over floor, etc. Very depressing.

Here is what worked for me today. I was afraid if I did not clean it up i would miss some bills or something and wreck my credit so I had to do it.

Try this:

1. Put everything in one, two or three laundrybaskets just to get it out of that room.

2. Move full baskets out of room into nice room where soon you will relax and sit down to slowly sort them.

3. Room is now clear of junk. Make bed and clean it up real quickly. Not important if bed is made perfectly. Just neaten up room.

4. Baskets are filled with papers, bills and other junk. Bring baskets of junk into a cleaner, nicer room to sort out. Have nice tea or diet drink with ice and music or other distractions.

5. Play music or watch TV and have one laundry basket near you and start sorting it. Have about three shoeboxes that you will sort it into. Lable these somehow.

6. RELAX while sorting. Do it when you and the husband are sitting watching TV or something. Or go outside on a deck or backyard and do the sorting. Make it pleasant. Do not get caught up in the stuff, things you have to do put these in one special shoebox.

7. You can get anything done this way. I have done it with bins of clothing, bills, paperwork, junk, etc. Getting it off the floor and out of the room is half of it.

Thankyouthankyouthankyouthankyouthankyou!!!!!!!!!

This I will do tomorrow. I can do step 1. Then I can do step 2. etc... Thank you!

Jayne, should I admit this? My H gives me fair warning, and then throws it ALL out. I negotiate the time with him, like instead of noon today, please don't touch it for 3 days. I think it's pretty honest and POJA. If it meant something to me, I would've gone through it. Once it is GONE, maintenance is really easy

I'm sorry jet lag is hitting you so hard right now. hang in there, jayne! Have you tried using a timer? Asking the kids and H for help? Bribing? LOL