That's really good!

See, I agree with both Mrs W and Jerry. I believe that affairs are premeditated, but what is not premeditated are the overwhelming feelings of infatuation that pulls one across that LINE in the sand. Those feelings that develop because one was not observing proper boundaries. I don't believe those are premeditated.

Jerry, it is about like our feelings for alcohol. We didn't set out to be alcoholics, that craving just sort of creeped up on us while we weren't looking. And then we made a willful CHOICE, based on those powerful feelings, to drink.

Adulterers knowingly and premeditatively walk across that line. But they never PLANNED to have strong feelings of infatuation; they didn't set out to have an affair. Many people who have affairs are decent, good people with whom an affair is an ABERRATION of character. With others, it IS their character.

Dr. Harley talks alot about this very issue on his video that I bumped today. He believes that if one believes they are immune they are probably not protecting themselves from an affair. And because of that, really ARE vulnerable.

I have to confess that I was guilty of this myself up until a few years ago. I firmly believed that I was IMMUNE, no matter what. I was in the habit of having lunch with a male collegue every Monday after our staff meeting. This went on for several years, until I realized how CLOSE we had become. I can SEE how it could happen. I put a quick end to that and have ceased with those kind of lunches.

Anyway, I agree with you BOTH and think y'all should go watch Dr. Harley's comments on this subject: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi6806_inf.html

MEDC, a married man giving a ride to a single female is NOT a good idea-PERIOD...

There are other factors about this particular single female as well...She is a FOW-and I like her, I really do, she is a good friend in fact, but that is a BIG RED FLAG...I'm not willing to risk it...

Jerry...I do "OWN" it and have repented of it...That does NOT mean that I wasn't in an altered state once I was in it though-FOG IS REAL...I have been in that gutter...I'm telling you that I was NOT myself then...Mr. W, my MAMA and God could tell you that...

Mrs. W

Very well explained Mel...I completely agree! Thanks!

Mrs. W

Ok, when I say the affair is premeditated, I don't think the WS SET OUT to have an affair.[in most cases] But when they cross that line and ACT on those unpremeditated feelings, they KNOW they are committing adultery. So it is premeditated only in that regard. Hope that is making sense.

Props to Robert Hunter eh?

Incisive, brother...

I totally disagree with the whole premeditation ideas.

Nonsense. There absolutely was NOT a conscious decision made.

I did not plan to have an affair.
And all of the initial actions were completely innocent.

So at what point do you call it an affair?
At what point are you saying there was "pre-meditation"?

Because I knew OM for MONTHS before there was anything inappropriate. My feelings developed before there was anything beyond a friendship.

At what point did you commit adultery? We can't answer that FOR YOU. You have to tell us.

Hi Try and ILMH!!

Sorry we haven't posted in a while! I got a great job and have been putting in long days, while W2S is working nights. The opposite shift thing STINKS, but we have to do it for the summer.

We are doing great, though...there are some pretty big updates, but I'll save that for my thread and not yours. LOL!

It seems your thread has been hi-jacked to debate your question in general and not for you specifically, but it is important to hear all sides of this story. Obviously, a BS is never going to be able to completely relate to a WS (unless they have also been one as well) and vice versa. In the same vein, a BS may be less likely to cheat knowing what they know about the pain...but then again, maybe some are MORE likely...especially when they have begun down that slippery slope without meaning to in the first place. There is the "Well, you did it to ME" factor.

That is why MB is so important. Do you think that your sitch is so unique that the family of doctors who have helped thousands of couples recover their Ms after an A are somehow falling short of understanding the depth of your grief or what is needed for recovery? I am not saying that to be smart, I am saying that because it is what I am reading in your posts.

Don't get me wrong, this is the issue that W2S struggles with the most. The WHY of it... Was it unmet ENs? Was it lack of morals? Was it the perfect storm? Was it something *I* did or didn't do? Why wasn't I good enough? I know I was a good husband and father (or wife and mother)...etc, etc. Or was it a combination of all or some of the above???

The basic fact that you have to get down to is this--it doesn't really matter if you understand why ILMH decided to do what she did. Whether it was pre-meditated or not, etc. What MATTERS is if you love her enough to forgive her.

It is interesting to me that so many here who have recovered, due in large part to the fundamental teachings on this website, suddenly question some of the core elements of the message. One of the STRONGEST points that dr. Harley makes is that we are ALL WIRED FOR AFFAIRS...whether any of you believe it or not. You AREN'T perfect! There IS a situation in which you would find yourself making a decision to go through with it or not...

So, Jerry and MEDC, and Still_Crazy...at THAT point, YES, I believe it is pre-meditated. I knew what I was doing. What I didn't know was that I was making a mistake. In my mind, I thought "everything happens for a reason" and all the other silly [censored] people in the "fog" or whatever look back and see as so foolish. I had approached the point of no return and consciously made the choice to proceed. Maybe THAT is the point at which all of you, ahem, SAINTS (LOL) would stop the game and say--wow, how did I get this far...

I take you back to December when Believer posted her "Believer is getting foggy" thread. I will never forget it. For those of you who missed it, I have linked it...
Believer is getting foggy

It isn't long and well worth the read. After what she went through you would think she would see the signs... she would have thought so as well... (sorry to use you as an "example" B, but that thread really had an affect on me!)

You see, we can never say never or always. And we can't possibly know all of the reasons why someone else does what they do. So, the bottom line is--do you love ILMH enough to forgive her?

Just got off the phone with W2S and he had an interesting point...he does not think any less of me for the choices I have made, because we all make mistakes and have faults/flaws. The very reason he feels he would be able to keep his boundaries in place--making a commitment to love, honor and cherish me through all things in front of our family, friends and God--are the very same reasons he chose to forgive me. He also said our life experiences help define what we may or may not do in any given circumstance. We would both love to believe that after what has happened in our M, neither of us would hurt each other this way again, but the FACT is--we must PROTECT and constantly practice ALL of Dr. Harley's teachings (ie-we are all programmed for affairs) in order to ENSURE that it won't.

Premeditation to me means that I set out to have an affair.
I did not do that. I did not plan it. I did not anticipate it.

I did not look around to find a suitable affair partner.

Do you consider your lunches with your male coworker an emotional affair? Probably not. But it could have led there.
Was that premeditated?

Now there may be some WS out there that are serial cheaters that DO plan affair after affair.

But I think most of us fall into the category of getting into a situation over our heads. I wish I had the tools like MB to recognize the danger before or during my descent into he11.

I already addressed these points in my posts, did you read them?

I believe you when you say you never set out to have an affair. I believe that is most often the case. The feelings were in no way expected or premeditated.

But feelings are very different from ACTIONS and when a person chooses to ACT ON THOSE feelings, that is where the premeditation comes in. They KNOW that their actions are adultery. It is a conscious decision. Those actions do not happen without forethought and intent. If a WS claims they do, then they should not be running around free because that means they have no CONTROL OVER THEIR ACTIONS. Which is nonsense.

I've attached again for easy reference something you have all likely seen posted before on these boards. It's TooSoon's 15 steps to infidelity.

What my wife and I are saying, to dispute the notion of "premeditation" in EVERY choice that leads to the affair is that some of these initial "steps" are untaken, many times, but not ALL the time, with complete unawareness. All of us, currently have relationships with opposite sex persons which already meet a couple of the criteria.

IMO, the "weakness" most often doesn't exist, prior to initial choices (obviously this doesn't apply to the wayward that goes out purposely and "premeditatively" seeking an affair partner). Though, I "feel" I have absolutely no "weakness" to our employee, I need to be ever mindful of POJA and protecting my marriage, which is of the utmost value to me to insure a "weakness" doesn't present itself. However, "weakness" is only a problem when coupled with temptation. Even if I'm never put in temptations way with her (which IS part of the plan by maintaining good boundaries so SHE doesn't develope "feelings" and tempt me either), it's just good practice. Affair proofing a marriage is a PLAN, not a "feeling" (saying you are susceptible is not a fact...it is a "feeling" which can only be proven overtime, feelings change, $hit happens...a "PLAN" is the best way to achieve continued success)

For example, my employee (and anyone's employee for that matter) by definition, meets SOME of my emotional needs. That is a mere happen stance of the employee/employer relationship. Also, over time, you are bound to interact personally with an employee. She certainly shares a common interest (the success of the enterprise and as a key employee moreso than most). We also share a religion (she has come to church with my wife and I). We do talk about personal matters though I am WAY more diligent about staying away from the subject of me and my wife (who she is good friends with). I couldn't possibly relay every conversation we've had to my wife so you could say we share "secrets", though there is nothing secretive about our "relationship" and my wife is free to snoop all she wants. I'm also adding in that I tend to tease and joke around a lot (less so now) and "we" give her gifts, bonuses, kudo's at work based upon her performance. Since I handle the checkbook and day to day operations, SHE may interpret those gifts and kudo's as coming from ME, personally. Since MB, I have been much more mindful of including Mrs. W in such decisions and incorporating her into my communications and meetings with all our female employees. I have even secretly recorded some of those meetings just in case. You never know when a disgruntled employee will make outrageous claims or if Mrs. W will want more details of my communications with a female than I am capable of recalling (I am a man and incapable of remembering exact conversations...how you women do that is beyond me).

As Dr. Harley says...everyone we interact with in life is automatically given a love bank account. All opposite sex relationships of every kind are a threat to your marriage. The "weakness" developes the further you take the steps below. Some of those "steps" are natural occurences that happen everyday between opposite sex relationships, married or not. Some of the steps ARE completely unavoidable. Part of life. IF you are a serial adulterer, you must avoid them ALL completely (and, yes, live in a bubble if you value your marriage). If you value your marriage as much as I do, you avoid and monitor them, with your spouse, as best you can. Obviously, some more than others. Old intimate relationships are first on the WATCHOUT list. Employees are likely second. Bosses are likely third. Co-workers fourth, neighbors fifth and so on.

Anyway...here's the list again: See if you can identify those in your life that are, perhaps, more of a threat than you, at first or ever, imagined and take precautions accordingly. Perhaps preempt a weakness. If you value your marriage, that is.

Mr. W


TOOSOONS - 15 STEPS TO INFIDELITY

I borrowed this from another Web Site on Infidelity. It sounded like the steps my FWW described to me as she explained her affair to me.

-----------------------------

This was a handout for a church group (the statistics are almost identical for church and non-church members when it comes to adultery and divorce) but it does a good job of defining how affairs develop for far too many people. The progression from friend to sexual intimacy and betrayal. It is provided in the hope that it will help newcomers to the forum gain some understanding of what has happened and how it could or might have happened.

Anatomy of Adultery
15 Steps of Unfaithfulness

How does adultery "happen?" People don't just decide one day to hop in bed and be unfaithful to their spouse. Adultery is the culminating act of a dozen or more tiny steps of unfaithfulness. Each step in itself does not seem that serious or much beyond the previous step. Satan draws a person into adultery one tiny step at a time. And he does this over time so that our conscience is gradually seared. This makes it easier to take "just one more step" thinking such a tiny step won't hurt us.

The following "15 steps" which analyze how adultery "happens" are based on scores of interviews, counseling, and correspondence with church folk who fell into unfaithfulness. Our question: "How did this happen... what were the tiny steps which led to this mess?" While the order varied from case to case, the following is the general progression which surfaced in most incidents. This is not some sort of theoretical list. These are the actual steps taken by scores of church people who wound up committing adultery and regretting it later. Some of these people sobbed deeply as they shared, hoping that their own pain and failure might save other marriages. This information comes to you at great expense.

This chapter doesn't have any preaching or analysis... that is left to you. Here we offer you cold word-for-word quotes. You and your Sunday School class can draw out the lessons. How did these lives get ruined? How does it start?


1. Sharing Common Interests.
"We just had so much in common, it was uncanny."

"She and I both enjoyed music, and we were attracted to each other."

"He was so spiritually-minded... I'd been looking for someone to share my spiritual struggles with."

"We both loved horses, and started riding together."

"We both shared a burden for the church and especially children's work."

"She was the first woman I'd ever met who liked the outdoors, even hunting and fishing -- I was fascinated!"


2. Mentally comparing with my mate.
"My husband wasn't interested much in spiritual things, but this man knew so much about the Bible."

"She was slim, attractive, and dressed sharp -- quite a difference from my wife who didn't take care of herself much at that time."

"She was so understanding and would listen to me and my hurts -- my wife was always so busy and rushed that we didn't have the time to talk.

"My husband just would never communicate -- he'd come home from work and just sit there watching TV. I finally gave up on him. Then this man came along who was worlds apart from my husband -- he was gentile, loved to talk, and would just share little things about his life with me."


3. Meeting emotional needs.
"He understood how I was feeling and offered me the empathy I was hungering for."

"She was there when I needed her."

"My ego was so starved for affirmation that I would have taken it from anyone -- I guess that's what started the whole thing."

"No one had ever really believed in me until he came along. He encouraged me, inspired me, and believed so deeply in what I could become."

"My wife was busy with the kids and not at all involved with my work. This girl admired me and treated me like I was really somebody. It felt so good."


4. Looking forward to being together.
"I used to dread going to work, but after we started our friendship, I would wake up thinking of how I would see him later that day... it seemed to make getting up easier."

"I would think of being with her the whole time I was driving to work."

"I found myself thinking of him as I got dressed each morning, wondering how he would like a certain outfit or perfume."

"I looked forward to choir practice every week because I knew he would be there."

"Every time I drove by her house I would think of her and how we'd see each other that Sunday."


5. Tinges of dishonesty with my mate.
"When my wife would ask if she was with the group I'd pretend I couldn't remember... right there I started building a wall between us."

"I would act like I was going to practice with our ensemble, but actually I was practicing a duet with him."

"Once my wife asked about her, but I denied everything, after all, we hadn't done anything wrong yet. Now I see that this was one of those exit points where I could have come clean and got off the road I was speeding down."

"Whenever we got together as couples I would act like I didn't care about him, and afterward I would even criticize him to my husband. I guess I was trying to hide my real feelings from my husband."


6. Flirting and teasing.
"I could tell from the way she looked at me. She would gaze directly into my eyes, then furtively glance down my body then back into my eyes again -- I knew then that she was interested in more than my friendship. But, I was so flattered by her interest that I couldn't escape."

"Then we started teasing each other, often with double-meaning kind of things. Sometimes we'd tease each other even when we were together as two couples. It seemed innocent enough at first, but more and more we knew it really did mean something to us."

"We would laugh and talk about how it seemed like we were "made for each other" so much. Then we'd tease each other about what kind of husband or wife the other one would have been if we'd married each other."

"He had those killer eyes. When he'd look at me in that "special way" I would just melt. It was hopeless fighting my urges -- he had me."


7. Talking about personal matters.
"We would talk about things -- not big things, just little things which he cared about, or I was worried about."

"We'd meet together for coffee before church and just talk together."

"I was having problems with my son and she seemed to understand the whole situation so much better than anyone else I talked with. I'd tell her about the most recent blow-up and she would understand so well. We just became really deep friends -- almost soul-mates. That's what's so weird about all this -- we never intended for it to go this far."

"I had lost my Dad just before we got to know each other and he had lost his mother a few years earlier. He seemed to understand exactly what I was going through and we would talk for hours about how each of us felt."

"I was so lonely since my husband died and hungry for someone to share life with. Then he began to call just because he cared. I loved hearing his caring voice at the other end of the line, even though I knew he was married."

"We spent so much time together at work that I swear she knew more about me than my wife ever did -- or even cared to know."


8. Minor yet arousing touch, squeeze, or hug.
"He never touched me for months. Then one night after working late, we were walking toward the door when he said 'You're so special, thanks for all you do..." then he turned and hugged me tenderly, just for a second. I loved how I felt for that moment so much that I began to replay it over and over again in my mind like a videotape. Now I know that I should have stopped it all right then. I never intended to ruin my family like this."

"She was always hanging around our house and was my wife's best friend. Often she would stay late to watch TV, even after my wife went to bed. She would sit beside me on the couch and I was drawn to her like the song says... like a moth to the flame."

"He would often pat me on the shoulder -- you know, in appreciation for a good job I'd done. But I knew it meant more than that."

"The first time she touched me was when we were doing registration together. We were sitting beside each other. I'd say something cute or funny and she would giggle, then under the table she'd squeeze the top of my leg with her hand. That was really exciting to me."

"Every time she shook hands with me at the door she seemed to linger, sort of holding my hand more than shaking it. No one else would notice, but I knew there was more to her touch than appeared to the eyes. She knew too."


9. Special notes or gifts.
"He would write these little encouraging notes and leave them in my desk, pocketbook, or taped to my computer. They didn't say anything which could be traced. If anyone found them they wouldn't suspect anything. But we both knew what was going on, we just didn't want to stop yet."

"I would sometimes call him and leave a short message on his answering machine. He would leave little notes in my Bible."

"He would buy me a little gift -- not that expensive, but it always showed he had taken extra thought to get exactly what I liked. Of course everyone else thought he was just being a good boss."

"She started leaving unsigned notes to me in my desk sharing her feelings for me. It scared me at first, because I thought someone would find one. But after a while I found myself looking forward to the next one, even though I knew the risk."


10. Inventing excuses to call or meet.
"I started figuring out ways I could drop off something at her house when her husband was gone. He and I knew each other and I would always return borrowed tools in the afternoon when I knew she'd be there alone."

"I would wait until the end of the workday then I'd call him just before closing time about something I'd made up as a 'business question' and we'd talk."

"The more entangled we got, the more I planned times where he and I could practice together. We started meeting more often."

"She started arranging her schedule so that her husband dropped her off at committee meetings. I would hang around and offer to take her home, acting with as much nonchalance as I could muster up."


11. Arranging secret meetings.
"By now we both were so far gone that we started meeting secretly at the mall parking lot. It know now how foolish this was, but I was driven by something other than good sense at that time."

"We started arranging to work evenings on the same nights, then we would leave early and meet each other in the dark parking lot."

"I started making sure he knew my travel schedule so we could attend the same conferences. We still weren't involved physically at that time, but there was such excitement and romance to it all... even the secrecy seemed to make it more exciting."

"She would sometimes call me just before lunch and we'd sneak through a drive-up together, and then spend the rest of my lunch hour talking quietly to each other."


12. Deceit and cover ups.
"Once we were meeting secretly I had to invent all kinds of stories about where I'd been to satisfy my wife. By now I had built a towering wall of dishonesty between us."

"Pretty soon my whole life was full of lies. I'd lie about where I was going, where I'd been, and who I'd been with. The more suspicious my husband got, the better liar I became. But he knew something was going on. It's hard to lie without people suspecting it."

"I joined several groups so that I would have an excuse to be away in the evenings."

"She would ask when I'd gotten off work. I'd simply lie about it, and she never knew what hit her. How can I ever regain her trust now?"

"We agreed that if anyone saw us driving around we would both tell the same story: that my car wouldn't start, he stopped to help, an we were going together to get a new fuse to replace the broken one he'd discovered."

"By now my whole life was a lie, so I began telling them regularly to cover up our little meetings."


13. Kissing and embracing.
"The whole thing seemed so exciting by now. I was such a fool. We were meeting secretly and both of us were fearful of being caught. But that only seemed to increase our common ground. When we'd meet, we would embrace as if we'd not been together for years -- like in the movies when someone comes home from the war."

"Once we started meeting secretly the end came fast. We kissed and hugged like two teenagers going parking for their first time."

"It just felt so good to be hugged and loved by somebody who really cared about me."


14. Petting and high indiscretion.
"At this point my glands took over. I forgot reason altogether and was willing to risk everything for more."

"It was like I was a teenager again -- going too far, then repenting and promising to do better; then just as quick I was hungrily seeking more sin."

"When my husband and I were dating we struggled with 'how far to go.' Well, here I was again struggling over the same issue. Friendship with this guy didn't seem so wrong. But now were we're going further than I ever intended. But, I felt curiously justified going exactly as far as I had with my husband when had been dating. In a way, I think some of my resentment against my husband's constant pressure on me started coming out. I'm not saying that it wasn't wrong. Just that I kind of felt justified."

"At about this time I began fooling myself into thinking I was heroic for not going "all the way." That's what I wanted to do. But by doing "everything but" I fooled myself into thinking I was successfully resisting temptation. What I didn't realize was that, not only was what I was doing wrong, but that eventually I would take the next step. It's just not possible to freeze a relationship -- you have to go ahead with it, or break it off totally."


15. Sexual intercourse.
"Soon I quit resisting and was swept into outright adultery."

"One thing led to another and finally we ended up in bed with each other."

"Though we never intended it to go that far, we eventually went all the way and had sex."

"One night we couldn't seem to stop ourselves (at least we didn't want to) so I completed my journey of unfaithfulness to my husband -- I had sex with this man." _________________________

Perhaps not the very first day you met your OP. I would argue that at some point you did in fact do these things. They WERE premeditated.

I don't think they can either. We just don't know any better! LOL

For me personally everything you all are saying does not apply.

I do not have male friends. I certainly have male co-workers but would NEVER go anywhere ALONE with a male (meaning to lunch or giving them a ride or anything) whether they were married or single. Conversations that take place are always about family things.

I have my H for anything i would need a male perspective on. So therefore, for me, I have not EVER put myself in a situation where anything could happen. And truly have not found it DIFFICULT.

Adding another thought, I have ALWAYS, since the day i met my H, prior to doing something with or saying something to any one of the opposite sex (married or single), ask myself, would it bother me if my H were doing or saying this. If the answer is YES then i would not even CONSIDER doing or saying whatever it is.

I feel i have ALWAYS protected my M in this way and it has never been difficult.

That is why i find it hard to believe that it is that easy to have an A.

SC;

I don't really know why this is all about you.
You have good boundries. Good for you.

Apparently your husband was doing a good job of meeting your emotional needs.

The question is the "why" of the affair, and is obviously not something you have any insight on.

TTH;
I'm not going to quibble about the whole "premeditated" question.
I guess we all have different definitions of that. But I suspect your wife would not agree with you if you told her she premeditated the affair.

Obviously once IN the affair there were lots of actions you could classify that way. But leading up to it, there is no malice of forethought. It was not my intent to participate in an affair, and I doubt it was your wife's intent.

How more can we help you? What are you struggling with?

Perhaps the A begins with the decision to lie to the BS? In that respect, many As probably start much earlier than many of us recognize. But the decision to lie is what enables everything else to happen, and after the first lie, the snowball effect commences.

I am not trying to make it about me. I struggle with the same question myself "WHY".

And my H was not doing a good job of meeting my EN but i still have ALWAYS had my personal boundaries in place.

And i truly do not understand why everyone thinks that is so diffucult is all.

And i also believe the TTH thinks the same thing that i do, that it is not just that simple.