W2S..I disagree wholeheartedly. No one has insinuated a superiority over anyone else by suggesting they do not share THE SAME weaknesses.
What is it about this that gets everyone's panties in a bunch? I am different than you...and you are different than others. We share some of the same weaknesses...but not all.
Some people have a weakness for sex with minors...does that mean all do??? No. I can say NEVER to this weakness....NEVER.
Some people can drink responsibly...others can't handle even one drink without regressing into a problem area.
Some people have addictive personalities...others do not.

It is recognizing differences between people and NOT suggesting superiority. I don't think I am superior to your wife...or any other Fws...I DO think I have no problem dealing with an area of my life that has presented them issue.

No matter what people here will try and get others to believe...we are all different and react differently to situations.

THH:

while I'm not saying it holds for your WW's case, I agree with her that it is very possible to fall into an A. It's called an infatuation. You might try goggling "infatuation" and read up on the psychology of the phenomenon. Basically, a person, when infatuated, literally becomes addicted to another person, and is acting under the influence of hormones and other brain chemicals that make her irrational. The decision to have sex usually comes after a period of probably months of an EA, wherein some unmet EN's are being fulfilled, and the infatuation grows. By the time the decision to have sex is thrust upon her, she is so under the influence, that the ability to say no is extremely difficult, as difficult as an alcoholic refusing another drink.

I'm not trying to excuse her behavior, but, like you, I was trying to understand how it happened to the wife I thought I knew for 23 years.

Seriously, I don't understand why folks feel that others are being "superior" to them if they say they would "NEVER" commit some sin. huh? Why would one choose to FEEL inferior rather than be HAPPY that this person would not subject themselves [realistically or not] to that sin? I don't understand that.

Feeling inferior is a CHOICE. It is a personal problem of my own making that no one else is responsible for. No one MAKES me feel that way except ME. The buck stops RIGHT HERE. If I feel envious or inferior it is because of the lady in the mirror.

I wonder if the feeling is really ENVY?

I know many of you will NEVER be alcoholics. If you tell me you "could never be an alcoholic" I don't feel inferior, I feel HAPPY FOR YOU and hope you are right!

If someone says they could never commit adultery, don't you HOPE THEY ARE RIGHT? I DO!!!

I do hope their confidence does not lead them to ignore proper boundaries, though. <----------THAT is my only concern. Not my immature feelings of inferiority.

p.s. I don't need any of you to tell me you are "wired to be an alcoholic" either. I hope NONE OF YOU ARE! It makes no difference to me if think you are or aren't.

One underlying current here might give some cause for thought....Every WS thought they were not capable cheating. Yet they all did.

Maybe the tact to take is the opposite? Assume you are capable and defend against it? Just a thought.

agree 100%

Yes, the folks who are the most vulnerable - USUALLY - are the ones who think they WON'T do it, BECAUSE, they do not take proper precautions.

edited to add: I DO NOT WISH that upon any of my fellow board members. I hope and pray they are all right. And I hope and pray - sincerely - that NONE of you ever become alcoholics. It would give me NO PLEASURE. NONE

MEDC,

Hey, If your panties are in a bunch that's your own business.


Unless you were hatched or you are really an alien from another planet you do share this weakness whether you admit it or not. It's part of your physiological makeup. You were born with an attraction to the opposite sex. You were born with a desire to procreate. It's part of nature. Sharing the same weakness is not the same thing as being prone to acting on that weakness.

Dr. Harley wrote:
We are all wired for affairs. The only people who are exempt are those who are utterly incapable of meeting someone else's emotional needs. If you can't meet anyone's needs, no one will ever fall in love with you. But if your spouse has anything to offer others, and you are not meeting an important emotional need, commitment to "forsake all others" can become words without meaning. How Do Affairs Begin?


For what it's worth, I was agreeing with what you are saying. When you say that you would "never have an A" I do believe you. I feel the same way. Not because I do not share the same weakness of those that have, but because I have always maintained boundaries that made it a near impossibility. I don't think I met even one of the criteria that Mr. W posted about steps of an A. I know that one's beliefs, life experiences, and values can cause someone to implement extraordinary precautions without even knowing that is what they are doing because that is how I have lived my life.

The whole point of my previous post was to show the difference between saying "I would NEVER have an A" and "I do not believe that I would have an A." Both sentences mean the same thing. The first portrays that you can see into the future and envision every possible circumstance or situation you will ever encounter for the rest of you life. If that's the case, then you must have a crystal ball on you desk and an ability to see into the future that none of us know about. If that is true, then please send me next weeks winning lottery numbers. Since none of that is possible, the second sentence is a more accurate statement. Is it really that big a deal for me to suggest that everyone(not just you) use the other verbiage rather than saying "NEVER?" Remember, I'm the BS here. So your usage of that term has no direct impact on me. I do however see how using that term could be hurtful to those that believed the same thing at one time.

Want2Stay

TTH - I'm really puzzled about exactly WHAT you want from ILMH?

What you WANT is a time machine so that she never had an affair. Sorry about that. W2S has been on at me about one of them too but nothing's doing.

Why is it you can't accept that she didn't protect her weaknesses as CHOSE to have an affair as a valid reason? What reason will satisfy you? That would be the reason my wife would offer and I accept it. NOTHING she says will change the past.

For her NOW to be aware of her weaknesses and protect you and your marriage against them should be enough for you to move on IMHO. It was for me and 3 years into recovery it's a blessed view indeed. OPR you can let this poison kill you and your future.

For both my FWW and me, this is our second marriage. Both of us divorced our first spouses for adultery. For FWW, it was when she had a DD, age 2, and pregnant with her second. For years, she recounted how she would continually cry, "How could he do this to me?".

Yet, ironically, knowing the trauma an affair can, and does, cause, she went and had an affair after 23 years of marriage. Now that she had ceased contact for over a month, the fog is beginning to lift, and she can relate of how she didn't know who she was, that she just couldn't stop thinking about OM, and that she would look in the mirror, and didn't know who was looking back. She admits at the time she didn't think the lies and deceit were wrong, and wasn't even aware of all the anxiety and sleepless nights I was suffering (even though I had paced the living room floor all night several times, at which she complained I kept her awake). It is all part of the infatuation that so heavily influences the person, making them literally insane.

Yes, you are right. No matter what anyone proclaims, anyone is susceptible to an affair, if they are emotionally vulnerable and someone comes along and fills up their love bank. It is best to assume anyone is capable, or at least susceptible, and to take precautions against it. Dr. Harley has a book dedicated to just that.

As the fog began to lift, I reminded my FWW of her question of years earlier, and pointed out that she now has her answer.

FWIW i do not feel SUPERIOR to anyone, actually quite the opposite, I have the lowest self esteem in the world.

MEDC I don't think that you are insinuating a superiority. But I also think sometimes other people are. No one specifically on this thread.

I don't know, the bigger issue to me is shame.

Whenever one observe's something someone else has done and claim they would never do that, one put's them in the position of either defending themselves (externally or internally) or feeling ashamed, assuming they have a normal conscience.

When my father looks at the size of the TV I own and says I would never spend that much money on a TV, I can either feel ashamed, defend my purchase by saying its important to me, or defend it by arguing that he might spend that much if he had the extra money. I can express this to him, or I can reach one of those conclusions and keep it to myself.

In the case of an A, the person can't really defend the action and if the other party keeps hammering home they would never do it, then the FWS has nothing left to do but feel ashamed. Nobody likes to feel ashamed. And when you do, you feel inferior. When somebody says something to you that makes you feel inferior, you feel they are insinuating they are superior.

FWS's probably already feel a pretty fair amount of shame. I have no idea how much they should feel. I don't think you can measure it. But I do feel pretty sure that if one's recovery plan involves consistently reminding them of it, I think recovery will fail. And I think the FWS's here are trying to point that out.

TTH - I think you have been given plenty of posts that suggest the "why" may be something other than your FWW is just a "bad person". I've seen plenty of posts that suggest that unfortunately, the "why" is nothing more than she is just a "bad person." Thus far, it seems to me that you are coming up with objections to the former and agreements with the later. This suggests two things to me. The first, is that their is no "right" answer, due to the number of differing views. The second, is you asked the question with a bias. You should probably consider that. Perhaps reread the posts take a run at supporting the ones that suggest the "why" is something other than your FWW is a bad person and objecting at the one that suggest otherwise. I am not saying this as a fantasy or delusional exercise. I am saying it because if you have a bias, it is easy to only "hear" what supports your bias.

Finally, I think you should be thankful your FWW agrees with the MB principles and the explanation of "why". In the long term that will give you a better chance at recovery, which I assume is your goal. My FWW did not. Because of this, our recovery has been slower than it should be.

I agree and I think that is what this all comes down too. People that have done terrible things frequently would like to feel that given the same set of circumstances nearly everyone would have done the same thing....but, that just isn't always true.


The ONLY reason that this continues to be talked about on this thread is because FWS here have made a point to keep it alive by telling a few of us here that our thinking is all wrong. People can tell me a thousand times that I am "wired for an affair" and I may choose to respond that they are wrong.

Dr. Harley is a bright guy...but he does not have the ability to prove that we are all wired for affairs. He can say that in his experience, he has seen a large percentage of people that are vulnerable to affairs (despite their previous beliefs to the contrary)...he can make a general statement about the human condition...but it doesn't apply to everyone. Nothing involving emotions and intellect applies to everyone (or all).

No FWS here IMHO needs to defend their past actions to me...why would they. I do not judge anyone negatively that has turned their life around. WS are a different story. Some of the best posters here...and I am sure they are great people IRL..are FWS. Despite the fact that a few have become sarcastic and a bit rude at times on this thread (which according to a mod..sarcasm is just fine), I still respect them for the people they are today and the changes they have made in their lives.

I feel more then just a fair amount of shame and no I don't think I can measure it. It is awful, but what is the suggestion when a BS needs to get their anger out and needs to vent about what he/she is feeling? Is the constant reminder just something that as a FWS we need to be patient with and know that someday the BS might not have to say how awful you were being to them? And how malicious it was. Because it really hurts, but sometimes I feel as though I deserve it. (Something inside tells me feeling as though I deserve it will not help me in the long run be a stronger person) Yet, I am fully aware that there are consequences to my actions, is this part of the consequences?

All I am really interested in is...Is this going to help us in recovery or does it inhibit the process? My goal is to recover and not have just an "average marriage", but a great one filled with years of love.

I think TTH's struggle with the "why" is quite normal. It is a predictable part of the recovery process, and your recovery has been set back/reset due to the truth finally coming out.

BSs have to deal with alot of anger and resentment. It is difficult for the BS to piece reality back together in the wake of an A. It takes time. I think I struggled with the "why" for two or three months. I understand, on an intellectual level, the idea of "failing to protect boundaries". It doesn't FEEL true to me, or at least it doesn't feel COMPLETE. I mean, of course a WS does not protect boundaries, and that is how an A progresses, but the real question is WHY did the WS not protect thier boundaries, and even more importantly for recovery: what is the WS going to do to insure that they will never again fail to protect thier boundaries. Eventually, I came to the conclusion that I probably would never fully understand the "why", but that it didn't really matter all that much because my W was doing what was needed to demonstrate remorse and show that she had learned from the experience and that she would not fail again. Through that struggle my W was there, willing to talk, apologizing, and DOING things that helped me. Her recovery efforts did not answer the "why", but they helped me let go of my intense struggle with the question.

Tyk,

Can you give my an example of some of the things your W was doing? I feel like i am definitely doing all those thing you mentioned, but i don't want to leave any stone unturned. What things worked for you two in helping you feel like she was doing all she could towards recovery? I want TTH to see that i am serious about our recovery. I want those deep wounds to heal.

I agree that it isn't always true. I also think that people like to feel that there is a set (not neccessarily the same) of circumstances where people would do the same thing.

Anyway, in my own personal life, while I know these types of statements can sound like a defense of the behavior, I view it as a request for some compassion.


I've got no problem with that.

I can't be envious of people who claim to be affair-proof, because I've never had an affair either, and can't imagine ever having an affair, so I share a bit of skepticism when I read that I am "wired" that way. I don't feel vulnerable to that particular weakness. However, I remember reading these things from Dr. Harley:



But he's not alone, and I'm sure he didn't make those bold statements based solely on his practice...but also on research and good logical observation. Psychologists, Scientists, Anthropologists, all agree that there are evolutionary reasons that so many of them say we are "wired" for affairs. Helen Fisher's ground breaking research has impacted the MC business in a big way. Peggy Vaughn wrote the "Monogamy Myth" a long time ago....and she's a huge marriage advocate. The late Shirley Glass understood the temptation that our biology and emotional needs create. Dr. Harley is in good company.


I don't envy people who believe they are affair proof....I worry about them. One of the reasons that people don't take proper precautions, defend good marital boundaries, or remain in denial despite red flags, is they believe that "this could never happen to me".

Dr. Harley:


Yes, people are all different and even though we all may have SOME vulnerability because of our common biology....research also shows that some people are MORE inclined than others.

There was a recent interview on the Today Show:

Are we wired to cheat on our mates?...oo surprised by spouses who have affairs



I think I am very low risk for an affair, and I think I'm not in the group of people more "inclined" to an affair, but I don't want to raise risk, by denying ANY risk. I'm willing to concede that it's "possible" for me to cheat even though I can't imagine EVER EVER doing it. I firmly believe that if I'm aware of that vulnerability then I have the BEST chance of ACTIVELY guarding myself from falling prey to it. I can't prevent something I refuse to acknowledge. I can keep my faith strong. I can educate myself. I can practice honesty with my spouse. I can study the tragic consequences I see all around me. I can recognize that when my needs go unmet that temptations will be put in my path. I can become involved in marriage advocacy. I can practice keeping good boundaries in place. In short, while I don't claim to be immune to infidelity because I'm different or better....I believe that I can actively PREVENT choosing the tragedy of infidelity by recognizing the folly of believing I'm invulnerable.

SF, I think your post makes a lot of sense...I will however suggest that I worry more about people that are so unsure of their morals and integrity that they would inflict the worst possible harm on the ones they care most about. If infidelity is truly one of the worst things that can happen to a person...worse than rape, abuse, loss of a child...etc...I don't see why more people are not willing to stand up and say that they would NEVER inflict that kind of harm on another human being...let alone their family.

I would no sooner have an affair than I would molest a woman...I truly worry that people can think that because our "common biology" we are prone to affairs. I was created by God...not evolved from some lower being that can't control his carnal desires. My dogs, given the opportunity will jump on anything without worry or thought as to the consequences. People can think and reason and do not need at any time to be led around by their lust.

JMHO