Are you aware of where the children live? What they know or don't know? Are you asking to find out or are you asking so you can suggest to expose to my ex? None of my time with them has been or will be spent on swinging and I will work on that relationship. They cannot speak for themselves in this thread so it's impossible for you to make a correct assumption on what should or should not be done.

I would assume your children are not stupid. Kids pick up on just about everything, including weird sexual relationships. Until you are willing to forever give this lifestyle up completely, you will not be a good father to them.

Your allowed your opinion. That opinion should not be stated as a fact however. Either way you have proven to continue to state things of which you choose to not gain barely any information on even when information is available to you. Based on this I will make the choice to place you on ignore.

I wish you well and I hope in the future when you try to state your opinions of people based on little knowledge that you do so in a more wisely fashion.

Cat I have a question for you please. You state in another thread that you didn't realize the big purple elephant and that you still see the cover up and me trying to protect my image and justify what I did and have been doing. Now this is kind of a long question and I guess more of a statement then anything. Just 2 weeks ago you replied to an earlier post in this thread where I clearly stated the devastation it had done. I have clearly stated I'm no longer involved in any way with the lifestyle. I also feel your statement of has been doing is incorrect also. I have not been involved in the lifestyle. I do not and have not had a profile that I check almost on a daily basis on a swinger site. I have had no contact with any swingers and I deleted my profile months ago. Are you willing to ask my wife what her status on these things is?

ezb,

Are you saying that you're willing to put the lifestyle forever into the past (whether your W stays or not)? I think LA made a very insightful comparison of swinging to alcoholism.

Just for the record, my H tried to get me to try swinging while we were in false recovery; as weak as I was to him, I was adament about not getting involved with that kind of thing. I wouldn't be able to look myself in the mirror if I so much as tried it. I think now he's not even interested in that sort of arrangement; of course, as I was lamenting earlier, I don't know what he thinks about anymore.

Ezb, I finally caught up on your thread. Thank you for coming here to share all this. I have learned a lot about my ownself and my marriage.

Clarity - My friend Telly on the EN board has said sometimes that I'm not being clear enough in my posts. I think I understand what she was getting at. Reading your post, talking about shifts in thinking without putting them into perspective with shifts in behavior is confusing to read.

Radical Honesty - I have also pretended to be okay with things that were not okay for me and became more not okay for me over time. I see how tolerating somethig I am not truly enthusiastic about harms instead of helps the marriage. I am not giving examples to call blame, but because I really see how confusing it is when someone makes a blanket statement about thinking.

Specifically some things that I don't want in my life are spending time with family and friends who ridicule me behind my back and to my face. I am really angry that I have chosen to stay quiet on this and not be honest awith the people themselves about how it's not acceptable to me to treat me like that. I know that this is not the same issue that you are dealing with.

I see how I have let this hold me back, to come talk here about shifts in thinking and feeling so much better doing that that I lose that anger, that signal that I'm ready to stop accepting unnacceptable behavior. That I'm not making clear plans to change. I've been fortunate to be here and have the resources if Basic Concepts and the books here since '05 and there is no reason to keep tolerating the things that I do. I have what I think is an amazing support team.

Ezb, my advice to you would be to take what you're learning and make a plan. What about picking up SAA and making a plan? Talking to an IC and determine if you have a sexual addiction or not.

I'm going to take that advice myself today. I am full of momenetum because yesterday I went to go visit my grandpa and took control of what I can honestly say yes and no to. I did agree to go pick up my brother way out of the way, but I didn't pretend that I could stay until the late night, when I'd be too sleepy to drive safely. I was upfront with what I can do, and said I needed time to think a moment when I was asked to go in to my parents' house when I dropped my brother home. And then thought about it and said no, I'll catch them next time. That is really big because I have a habit of being accomodating as possible and then get resentful. Then H looks like the bad guy when he says he's had enough. Instead of me taking the responsibility to set my priorities.

Sure, I'll ask her. But it doesn't matter that you are no longer doing it. Well, it does, but the damage was already done, to both of you. It's like a woman who was abused as a child; that abuse becomes part of who she is, and colors everything she does from that point forward.

I apologize for not realizing 2 weeks ago that you were talking about swinging, because I would have addressed it then; either that, or I've had a brain fart and forgot I knew. I probably assumed that you were talking about the devastation of your relationship together.

I say the damage is done, because you now judge everything you get from hereonout against the euphoria, as you put it, that you enjoyed in this aberrant lifestyle. I say aberrant because it plays havoc with two people's psyches - self-esteem, trust, love, insecurity, jealousy, stuffing your feelings for someone else's sake, dominance, manipulation, measuring your SF ability against someone else's - things that shouldn't be messed with in a marriage.

Did you see that show last night? Swingtown? I saw a minute of it switching channels - the one couple was convincing - seducing - the woman to go into the bedroom with them as her husband watched. He didn't want to participate, but he did, finally, to please his wife. You could see the sick feeling on his face as he threw away everything he thought he was, just to go along.

Bottom line, you have crossed a line no marriage should have to cross. There are so many psychological issues involved with what you two were doing that I can't even address them all here; I don't have that much time. But suffice it to say, they are almost all destructive to a marriage. IMO, the ONLY way the two of you would ever get back together - should get back together - is if you both agreed to intensive therapy apart and together for the next couple of years, so much so that you would finally be able to tell each other exactly what you are thinking about everything under the sun, and gain total trust of each other.

I know, you're going to say that is what you want. But I don't see it. I see posts from you telling us how much you love your wife, she's beautiful, it was a 'beautiful sunlit day' on your wedding, yada yada yada. You may not realize it, ezb, but that is a self-defense mechanism, the way you are writing, and probably the way you are telling yourself that you are an ok person, that she wanted it just as much as you, that she has all these faults and you're just being a loving husband trying to give her all she wanted. You apologize, but you add a caveat. You admit what you did, but you add a caveat. You proclaim your love, but you write it so sickly sweet that I find it impossible you actually feel that way; you are writing what you think you're supposed to write to prove your love. You may think you feel that way, but I'm pretty sure that no matter how much you tell yourself - and us - how virtuous you are, your subconscious is driving all this so that you don't have to take a real look at what you did.

I'm not talking just about swinging. I'm talking about things people do to get what they want out of life.

Here's a suggestion. Print out this whole thread, take it to your therapist, and ask her what she thinks.

Excellent post, Catperson.

BTW, I just want to tell you how relieved I am to see what you think, now that you realize all along ezb was talking about swinging. Early on, as I was reading along following the thread, I was shocked that you and one other member seemed so casual and accepting of it. It just did not fit into the character I'd seen in the past. Now that you are catching up on the story, I think you are giving excellent food for thought.

I've edited this post out.

I realized it was sticking my hand in another's cookie jar. I need to stick to my own it's got no bakes

That may well be. The questions that I think are important for both of you, that I think would answer your questions very thoroughly as well, are:

• Are we commiting to moving to recovery?
• What is our plan to ensure Rule of Protection? What extraordinary precautions do we need to protect ourselves?
• What is our plan to ensure Rule of Care?
• What is our plan to ensure Rule of Honesty?
• What is our plan to ensure Rule of Time?
• What support will we need?
• Are we ready and commited to give up the people who are not friends of the marriage?

Bunny,

Signals we get from betraying ourselves can be...

Loneliness
Exclusion
Unworthiness
Powerlessness
Underloved or Unloved
Underappreciated or Unappreciated
Objectified

feeling reduced or last place in our marriage.

Each time we give to get, we are trying to control the response by manipulating an outcome.

So we can experience deeply all these things...

And when we stop betraying ourselves, we stop experiencing these signals so deeply.

That's my experience. Each time we hold ourselves to the lines we've drawn for our own boundaries, the loneliness lessons...for we have stopped abandoning ourselves; we experience our value because we are now valuing ourselves; we feel our power and know better our limits; we begin to feel appreciated because we started to appreciate we are whole, separate people, with equal significance.

Doesn't take another person doing anything to change our experience. Begins with us. And we do the same remedy for our past negligence, abandonment and betrayal...we own our choices, why we did it (stinkin' thinkin' to us now) and why and how we won't do it again.

Once you see the big ways you betrayed yourself, the smaller ways will begin to reveal themselves to you. It's a bundled package.

No amount of scolding, chiding punishment will change any previous self-betrayal...only changing your beliefs now, upping your awareness and acting to hold yourself to healthy boundaries will get you where you wanted to be the most.

After our MC had us do a resentment timeline, I asked my DH..."If you had known then how much resentment for you that I would create for each thing I did, would you have wanted me to do them?"

"No. Not at all."

When we assume we can please people into loving us, we degrade ourselves and are in fantasy. In that assumption we disrespect that they love us already (their choice), and in our actions, tell ourselves we aren't good enough to be loved as we are, we have to earn it...so we wipe out our own love banks...and look to our partner and say, "You did this."

We feel degraded, objectified, used, unappreciated (just see list above) and we only see it as coming in from the outside...so we miss our signals entirely--because they only come to us from within.

If you decide to act to earn..."I'm going to cook dinner so you'll compliment me" then say it. You may find that your partner would rather not have the dinner if he risks failing your expectations.

If you decide to act from your own choice to love, "I'm going to cook dinner for us tonight. I think about and appreciate you while I'm doing this...and I feel generous and loving when I do" be sure to say that. No hidden requirements, no giving to get (which is the flip side of tit for tat)...and you acknowledge you enjoy the way you love, your acts of love. And you will thrive in your own Openness and Honesty (O&H).

Each step heals past betrayals...for we betray by what we do and what we don't do.

Doesn't mean you won't be an intense pleasure to your spouse...means that his attention will not rule you so neither would his withdrawal. When you see love as verb, in your actions...then you see begin to see his pleasure/attention/withdrawal are not about you...they never were.

LA

My wife left almost 3 months ago and is planning to finalize the divorce on tuesday. I have choosen my marriage over the lifestyle.

Ezb,

The word "never" hit you in a place I'd like to talk about.

From our MC, I learned that there are words which reflect something important about ourselves. Those words (and their like) are often, Never, Ever, Forever, Always, Nothing, All, and Everything.

He said that these are the words we learn around the age of four, before we understand time measurements (like when we said, "Oh, I can't wait to do that yesterday!"). Because we are designed to only live in this moment, those words symbolized pretty well our state of mind. If we were crying, we believed we would cry forever. If we couldn't have a treat right then, we felt we wouldn't have another treat ever again.

You remember your children trying to convey their beliefs this way?

In our cumulative adult experience, we come to realize these words are rarely used to convey fact. They are not common measurements; they are true in very specific regards. So when you hear someone use them, you know their perspective is one from their much younger selves.

And you can know when you think or use them inaccurately, it's a signal to you from yourself.

Next, I see a trigger in you that I had in me, so this is through my own filter. I see you deeply reactive to shame attacks. I believe you most likely were reared through shame attacks as punishment to teach what to think, believe, feel and perceive when you were growing up.

Bound by shame, we live in an on/off state of approval. We can become praisehounds (my made-up name for it) and shame evaders. It's also the origin of our conflict avoidance...the fear of conflict is really the fear of being shamed.

It cuts off our skill at intimacy...for that fear doesn't fade. Actually, it increases. Our life becomes a focus of seeking praise and avoiding shame...creating many secrets which cannot be told or shared. Those secrets then become our sickness. We learn to act out or act in, instead of state our stuff because we believe we will be shamed, which is stark rejection, so even a small comment by someone we don't even know can launch our shame spiral.

Remember the thread you began asking for book recommendations? Remember one of mine? You might look at it again. I began with that one because the relationship you have with yourself (from your beliefs) affects your relationship with Bunny. Taints all of your relationships.

I believe you've got some inaccurate core shame going on and it's running your life...what you experienced as incomparable enjoyment really wasn't. Wouldn't be for a non-shame-based adult. See, it's fantasy and escape. Has the comfort and destruction of distraction, coupled with fake acceptance and false intimacy. It's a homebrewed addiction hiding within a seemingly non-harmful package without consequences.

When we break apart our glued, tucked, folded and slapped together self-image (created around the age of 8) to save us from our constant experience of shame (even when we aren't being actively shamed, we dwell on the incidents and reshame ourselves again and again), which becomes our false security, the habit of shame, and finally, we become shame itself.

You can see where you would naturally strive to control and manipulate everyone else around you, to varying degrees, thinking you can keep from feeling shame that way. Wouldn't realize you were self-shaming, as well, so when you felt shame, you'd struggle harder, focus on the near-misses you'd engineered with a quick wit or smart remark, or a pout or a tear.

Ezb, they weren't real. There were no near-misses, no shame unfelt from your manipulation, within your control.

Can you relate to any of this? If you can, will you look with soft eyes (not shamed ones) and see where your biggest control act was to shame others? Why not...it worked so well on you, didn't it?

As humans, we take as our weapon what wounds us the most.

Because of that unstoppable, unchangeable two-way street God put inside of us, in our design.

Sounds freaky and unreasonable...like a paradox. Why would you do that when you KNOW it hurts this much? (That's what I screamed at my WH on a night I'd lost my commitment to not LB.)

Another tip--do not ask "why" questions of others. You have no right. It's disrespectful. And it is essential to ask them of yourself...to trace, and to trace bravely.

Can you answer why you would use the weapon which had so long wounded you?

It's a great signal if you catch yourself making a shaming statement. Says in your head, you are continuing to dwell in shame and self-shame.

And it doesn't have a thing to do with love...only fear. So when you hear others shaming you, know their fear. Not coming from their love, from their fear. Know that your experience is dominated by fear.

You have yet to experience mature, thriving love. Blows awy anything you have yet experienced as fun or addictive by miles.

Bank on it.

LA

I hear you LA and thanks. Current book I'm reading: Codependent No More by Melody Beattie.

Then I guess that would be a direct question to my wife if she meant it in a factual fashion.


You are right I don't like to be shamed. Perhaps why I withdraw also.



I don't feel I was always controlling and manipulating. I learned how to do that subconsiously and combined with the fear of shame it took on it's own life.



Your right there also and shes walking away.

Ezb,


How would you ask her respectfully?

Will you now dedicate yourself to knowing this signal and not take it factually?


There's a trigger phrase for me...perhaps why. My DH. In our recovery, I began to really react to his "Maybe" when we discussed what I believed were critically important realizations, behaviors...investigating. The "I don't know", the "Perhaps" replies shook me. I figured out it was related to the same thing as the "never" stuff...because they didn't give me a time frame for when he would know and answer. Of if he were conning, doing the dodge, self-soothing...or not. Or when it was so foreign to him it was a non-answer because nothing resonated.

We worked out adding "right now" to our sentences for honesty. "I don't know right now. I want a day (week, hour, few minutes) to consider what I'm flashing on (or to see if I flash on anything)." Then I wouldn't trigger. The open-ended was my forever...wasn't real. However, because he didn't discern, even for himself, if he was lying or not, many times he would not pursue or ponder further. He didn't know he was lying to me because he wouldn't examine his statements to see if he were laying to himself.

Which is another very old shame-avoidance protective habit. Like withdrawal.


I remember you saying you learned how to do it in your marriage, as a result of seeing favorable outcomes when you did. I'm challenging you to look further back, before your second marriage, even in your first, and then, before that. What you believe determines your life experience. If you believe you began this only in the last decade of your life, something new instead of a variation or escalation, then you won't be able to see the pattern...for when it mutates again.


How does that correlate to prohibiting you from experiencing third stage, mature love, in marriage?

LA

Not sure right now actually.



It doesn't and shouldn't.

Ezb,

I think the Beattie book is terrific, btw. I forget how helpful it was for me.

In it, does she talk about the word "should" and what it signals at all?

LA

I just started reading it. Had to put the other I was reading on the shelf for now due to recent and upcoming events.

Let us know what you think about that book. It's on my list, too. Right now I'm reading Emotional Alchemy, and it is amazing. I think you would enjoy it.

One thought. I've heard of a lot of people who go through with divorces and, once that big stressor is out of the way, they find themselves able to talk to each other again, and often find that they can reconnect to what they liked about each other in the beginning. Maybe you can aim for that. Start over with her.