Ezb, I hear you that you're making a lot of effort to listen to her and understand how she's feeling. Making a beautiful lighthouse. Reading insightful books.

What do you think about the MB plan? I believe that this plan would give you the best chance possible to recover your marriage. And would really help you feel a lot better about yourself in the process. It doesn't focus on how bad things were, and all the shame and guilt. It focuses straight on what builds strong marriages: rule of care, rule of protection, rule of time, and rule of honesty.

The caveat is where there is mental illness and addiction. So I encourage you to call the Harleys themselves. When I called, I wasn't shamed. I was given the insight and the motivation I needed.

What do you think?

It will take us both to do that. I can't force her to want to work on it. As of now there is no longer a marriage though.

ezb, the things I was talking about in my last post, one person can start. Calling the Harleys. Studying SAA to give you a plan. It is your choice. I think that it really helps us get clarity when we look at our choices and look at why we choose some options over others. I am not saying to read that instead of Codependent No More. What I'm saying is that I believe the MB plan is the best chance that you've got here, whether she is on board or not. It helps you put into practice what you're learning.

Does that mean you went to court and heard the Judge, saw the decree issued?

LA

Thank you ears for your suggestion.

I wasn't in the courthouse. It doesn't change my plans though to better myself and try to heal our relationship. I'll expect a letter in the mail stated it's final and she has said it was declared final.

It's too bad. I want to help her and us today but she wants NC. I'll let actions speak which is what I should have been doing all along.

Well, ezb, you missed an loud action...

Can be tough to discern, in crisis, the difference between a real LB and what's projected.

Your wife ended your marriage...your presence wasn't an LB to your wife (and yes, she may have been hurting, even though she may believe she would have hurt more with you present for the divorce hearing)...it would have been you acting to honor your marriage.

Going for clarity. Affects everything.

LA

Yeah I probably did LA. I'll do what I have to now and see what she does. Have a session with the counselor tonight so we'll see if she shows. Right now she doesn't want to talk to me but said this morning she will always love me and she wants to work on the relationship.

It kind of strikes me as odd though, she says she has a good support system in place (other then her counselor I have no idea who) all I know is it's not me in any way because I wanted to support her today and she doesn't want it.

Ezb,

Another difficult distinction...do you know the difference between supporting and enabling?

Also, "probably did" isn't sharing your stuff. It may even be agreeing to pacify...can't tell.

You know humans do and don't do. Period. Only you know why you did what you did. To retrain our brains into reality, we commit to radical honesty.

I didn't do it. I chose not. I wanted to manipulate her to think I did it for her, to sway her feelings, to control them. I betrayed myself. I betrayed my marriage. I reacted to my fear instead of acting in spite of it.

Power statements are in reality. Beware of false ownership...you are striving to stay aware and receive your own signals. You've been signalling yourself for decades. Time to really get them, 'k? Know them for what they are.

LA

Yeah LA, thank you. I chose not to because I made a couple of promises that I was not going to break. I'll prove I still want this relationship to grow again by going to counseling tonight, I'll prove I still want this by reading books to help me improve myself for me, I'll prove I still want this by waiting for her to come to our session on thursday. I'll prove I still want this by not being involved in the lifestyle. We shall see what she proves and in the meantime I will care for myself for myself.

You're welcome.

Do you give yourself permission to break bad promises?

If you agree to something and don't really, do you continue to keep the promise, which shifts the blame and continues self-image; or do you say, "When I said if you ever said that word again I would throw this frying pan at you, I didn't mean it. That would go against my code."

You keep your healthy promise of going to counseling because that's what you want...and a result is that it demonstrates to you that you have your goal to save your relationship, to remarry your wife someday.

You keep yourself from breaking that promise when you feel despair, sorrow, when you grieve her choice to divorce. That's what I hear you saying. You used to react to those feelings...and break promises. Now, you feel those things and act, anyway.

Even the promise you made to yourself to stop breaking promises..."I promise when I make unhealthy promises (agreeing when I do not really agree, just saying to please in the moment); and I promise to keep healthy ones and to not break them from fear."

What do you mean here: I'll prove I still want this by waiting for her to come to our session on thursday. ?

What's all this proving? Do you really have to prove your choices to yourself? Being in NC in anyway with swinging because you know it as the drug it is, the distraction, how devastating it was to your marriage...doesn't prove anything. It's a healthy choice you make every day of your life, for yourself. If you did the drug, continued the fantasy, you harm yourself, which harms those you love.

Just does.

I sense your focused slipped right over to your wife.

Until you see the decree, since you weren't present for it, I don't want to say XW on hearsay. You are hearing her report, you didn't get the facts first hand. You didn't experience that with her.

I think my anger/passive-aggressiveness is showing.

I'm going to repeat...

You chose to NOT experience the end of your marriage with your wife, at her request. You don't have that now. You don't get another shot at reality in that way.

Sure makes it easier to continue in ways to live in fantasy...

90% of life is showing up. You know this. Just as in discernment from judgement; supporting from enabling; learn a healthy promise from a unhealthy one.

She can't make you betray yourself. Only you can do that.

LA

Well found out last night the NC days are so she can heal. Kind of perplexing to me but ok. Don't see things being able to get much better with so much vagueness. She didn't show last night and gave what I felt were excuses. No problem though she is and has been free to do as she sees fit.

Thanks again LA. I have nothing to prove, I have only improvements to make to myself for me and no one else.

How are you coming along in the Beattie book?

Think maybe going one week of NC, so you can heal, might be healing or you, help you discern how much of yourself you see through her, instead of connecting with her?

LA

Haven't been able to read it. I showed it to her sunday and suggested it might be a good book for her to read and she thought I said she could take it to read. Was planning on having it finsihed by now but I'm only 1/3 thru I believe.

Well we talked last night and she still feels I'm not listening to her. I feel I was. It's all things we have talked about before and I have admitted my part in the bad things (many times I might add but obviously something is keeping her from getting closer or healing on it).

Oh, no...that was the book, eh? I thought you couldn't find it to give to her. Guess I was wrong.

Oops.

Gotta a precision question...you said


She doesn't believe you are listening to her still. Now, does that mean at all or in parts, at times during your conversation?

Were you doing the listen and repeat to confirm or clarify what she was saying? Did you do it throughout, or in parts, at times?

Your experience was that you were listening, yet I hear you highlighting your ownership of your part.

She can not feel heard...you're only half. Sometimes we get that signal when we're not hearing ourselves.

LA

She didn't get specific.


When we were on the phone no but I was understanding and listening. When we chatted though I feel I did listen and repeated and clarified. How many times can the same thing be said though? Until it's recognized for what is?


What do you mean?


I'm starting to think that might have to do with it also. Not hearing herself and/or not wanting to hear herself. Due to fear of resolve on the issue? Not being able to let go of it?

I think a timeline for issues is needed to be done. I can only do so much though and I feel I've been doing 90% and her 10% is filled with excuses and saying well you contacted me when you weren't suppose to so I don't feel like living up to my end on such and such. That's her choice though. Starting to feel like she thought she would be ok and have an excuse as long as she made me choose between her and the lifestyle thinking there was no way I would choose her.

No biggie, misunderstanding.

This was actually a thing we got into last night about. She insisted I said she could take it and when I repeated what I remembered saying it was telling her she was wrong. I felt I said "here's the book I'm reading, you should take a look at it because it might help you also." Now I don't really care because it was a misunderstanding over something that means nothing really but she got very upset and tried to make a big deal out of it.

Miscommunications happen...I think they happen to help us see more clearly what we are doing, not doing.


Just as I quickly perceived and filed away incorrect information, so did you both last night. Coincidence? Oh, I think not.



My first inclination when I've misunderstood (and don't realize it) is to go back carefully and pick out what was said which I misperceived...like rolling back over a past event to see where it could have been avoided. Right there I'm in fantasy, aren't I?

If I feel I've injured someone, then I go back to find where I was mislead to misperceive (my defensive "Did not!" old pattern), and when I do this with that intent, I usually end up saying, "If you hadn't said it that way, I wouldn't have taken it this way."

I'm not going to do that...I misunderstood you on Sunday...and my intent is to understand you now.

What I see is the same element missing...time. "here's the book I'm reading, you should take a look at it because it might help you also."

Heck, without the "when I'm finished" or "Do you want me to give it to you next Sunday?", I heard you like she did. You wanted to share the experience of the book right now...my DJ inserted right in there.

LOL

And I like that she took it...and if she's begun to read it, maybe her reading a third of it and handing it back...you read another third and hand it back...sharing the experience.

How are you liking your DJ which proves her true in a way about your perception she was making a big deal out of what wasn't?

I ask because the misunderstanding may have been a big deal to her...and not a big deal to you. That's okay. Usually when something represents something else, we can seem to make a big deal out of what looks like nothing...grains of sand make a whole beach...nothing to sneeze at.

We're all here struggling to communicate our stuff to each other...same struggle...it's when we make ourselves the cause, control and cure of others' stuff we do damage; or when we don't own our own stuff because we're judging others' responses.

Normal progression, I think...to stop ourselves from reacting based on possible response...to judging their responses...distance ourselves from our past patterns...instead of seeing what tools we still use for what seems a new situation.

Still progress...would you consider adding in the element of time? Taking on the "right now" when appropriate, or "this week", "next week", etc.?

Doesn't guarantee no misunderstandings...sure adds to your own clarity, acts of honesty, and your best efforts.

LA

Myperception on the situation is to say ok you heard that, fine. This is what I feel I communicated. Then I move onto whether or not it has anything to do with anything and if the outcome caused a problem. For me I could have done some reading mon. and tues. that might have helped me but I couldn't because I didn't have the book. Did that mean an arguement to me was important? No it didn't, it was something that happened and I too was glad she took the book I feel it might help her a lot. I was happy to see my input or thoughts meant something

If I feel I've injured someone, then I go back to find where I was mislead to misperceive (my defensive "Did not!" old pattern), and when I do this with that intent, I usually end up saying, "If you hadn't said it that way, I wouldn't have taken it this way."

I'm not going to do that...I misunderstood you on Sunday...and my intent is to understand you now.

What I see is the same element missing...time. "here's the book I'm reading, you should take a look at it because it might help you also."

Heck, without the "when I'm finished" or "Do you want me to give it to you next Sunday?", I heard you like she did. You wanted to share the experience of the book right now...my DJ inserted right in there.

LOL

And I like that she took it...and if she's begun to read it, maybe her reading a third of it and handing it back...you read another third and hand it back...sharing the experience.

How are you liking your DJ which proves her true in a way about your perception she was making a big deal out of what wasn't?

I ask because the misunderstanding may have been a big deal to her...and not a big deal to you. That's okay. Usually when something represents something else, we can seem to make a big deal out of what looks like nothing...grains of sand make a whole beach...nothing to sneeze at.

We're all here struggling to communicate our stuff to each other...same struggle...it's when we make ourselves the cause, control and cure of others' stuff we do damage; or when we don't own our own stuff because we're judging others' responses.

Normal progression, I think...to stop ourselves from reacting based on possible response...to judging their responses...distance ourselves from our past patterns...instead of seeing what tools we still use for what seems a new situation.

Still progress...would you consider adding in the element of time? Taking on the "right now" when appropriate, or "this week", "next week", etc.?

Doesn't guarantee no misunderstandings...sure adds to your own clarity, acts of honesty, and your best efforts.

LA [/quote]