I am always so reluctant to say these things to you guys. People describe the WS as being Alien or adbucted. I believe they are fully aware of what they are doing, but the FEELINGS of romantic love are strong and sway them to move mountains to have it. I agree more with the addicted state of a WS.

IMO, WS's are exhibiting behaviors that they obviously have within them, it's just the situation that has brought them out. PWC wasn't abducted. He was right there, standing in front of me, making these decisions. He was fully aware of what the consequences could be. We talked of them. He knew.

For me, I know I saw PWC as I wanted to, not always as he was. It wasn't until he had the affairs that I experienced how cold and cruel he can be. That is a part of him, of who he is. You cannot separate this behavior from him.

I believe he shut himself off to experiencing any of my pain. Fantasy land wouldn't be fun that way. I believe he STILL shuts himself off from the full reality of what has been done. It's a hot mess.

How can you say an ADDICTED, BASICALLY DRUNK OR HIGH PERSON is FULLY AWARE OF WHAT THEY ARE DOING? I disagree with you on that one, SL. They are filled with rationalizations and justifications to continue USE. That's not FULLY AWARE and SANE!My H would have gone to ANY LENGTHS to hold on to his SUPPLY..beg, borrow, cheat, steal...THAT IS DEFINITELY NOT THE MAN HE WAS OR THE MAN THAT HE IS..yes, the propensity for ADDICTION to whatever it was IS THERE..WAS THERE...that's what I didn't know about or neither did he..which made him WEAK and VULNERABLE...

How do you know that what you were not aware of was his ADDICTIONS? That's what brings this stuff out. How can you make this a part of his personality given that you see him as having ADDICTIONS?

This is what people in ADDICTIONS do. Have you noticed Queenie speaking about LEARNING HOW TO FEEL?

I spoke to Steve Harley about this in trying to diagnose my husband with different personality disorders and psychological problems. He asked me if he did this stuff before he became ADDICTED. I said NO. He said, "You see, it's the ADDICTION"..which he told me that I had to UNDERSTAND and BUY..and you can see that I do...

The thing is THE ADDICT has to get to the point..IF EVER..of being MOTIVATED to BEAT the ADDICTION..that means reaching HIS/HER BOTTOM..whatever that BOTTOM is....sometimes it means LOSING EVERYTHING...

I buy totally into the ADDICTION thing. The difference for me this time is that I am his enemy where last time when he was getting sober from his drugs, I was his using partner.

I think that what I have come to understand on my strong day, which are more than others now, is that we BOTH lived a dry drunk life.

You know how many of you say if the WH is drinking or using, that Plan A won't work because of the entitlement and selfishness. WW in my life is a true alcoholic/addict and this A has put him into relapse, that's why Plan A sorta worked but not really. Until he truly hits rock bottom his selfishness, destructiveness etc. will be out there and his disease will take him down. The only trouble that I keep having is it's not the drug or alcohol this time but the OW. And therefore he can lie to himself a lot more than if he were drinking and using. That's why this is so hard. My H lived in his dry drunk for MANY years and his ability to justify, push down feeling etc is is and has always been his downfall.

Alcoholics are selfish people by nature. Once in the addiction you truly have no control over what you do because the consequences are NOT as important as the benefits of the high. I understand this, I lived this.

It's going to be a LONG time before my WH figures this out or is even willing to change his choices. Sadly, I have to accept this. Because he is truly and addict.

I don't know if this helps or makes sense, I'm having a hard time explaining my words. Unfortunately it's my reality and I am coming to accept it.

If my WH weren't an addict in real life, maybe things would be different, but because he is and will always be, he is in a very dangerous place in his life.

WOW..he may be redoing YOU..found a USING PARTNER...BE THANKFUL it's not YOU again...

YUCK...

Had you ever thought of this?

Queenie,

PWC's mother died due to her alcoholism. It was an UGLY death.

PWC started drinking in his 20's, beer mostly. He became a home brewer, but would drink daily. It never seemed like that big of a deal. At the time, I had no idea his mother was an alcoholic, neither did her. Her husband wasn't telling us about the issues they had at home, her drinking, hiding bottles, using before work, yelling at him and their son, physical violence, etc. He enabled her GREATLY, right up until she died.

It's not surprise to me that PWC began self medicating with booze. He went from drinking beer to downing a 2L bottle of rum every weekend, sometimes more, all by himself. It's no wonder recovery didn't work.

IMO, he is an alcoholic. He will certainly not agree with that statment. That would mean he has a problem. In his opinion, our marriage is the problem, I'm the problem, his loss of love for me is the problem.

I get the addiction theory. It makes perfect sense. I went months and months trying to do a Plan recovery, following MB principles. He spent months and months medicating and avoiding.

If it's not the alcohol, then it's the feelings of romantic love that he is after. It doesn't matter what IT is. It takes over and our marriage loses.

I treated PWC as if he was a garden variety wayward. He was not. It took me some time to get that the drinking had gone from a social event to a daily numbing event.

Too bad, so sad.

I think you've got it, SL!!

He is AN ALCOHOLIC and the MB Principles do not work in that case!

Mimi, would you agree that maybe the MB principles don't apply in my case either?

This is where it gets hard. Because that's what she is to him, a using partner, only he DOESN'T see it that way. He is SO FAR into the ADDICTION, he can't see that it's destroyed his life. He is so into the selfishness and self entitlement, but its not the DRUG so he can still LIE to himself on what's happening.

If you're CODEPENDENT, you're still considered to be ADDICTED to the DRUG, CORRECT? So it's like he's back using.

You've got me THINKING...

Don't they have COUNSELORS who specialize in ADDICTIONS that you can talk to in your community?

Exactly, only this disease is so cunning, baffling, he can lie to himself because he really isn't USING. He only found himself someone else to love because he wasn't happy.

My codependency is getting better because I am seeing today that I really might have lost him and that Plan B gave him exactly what he needed, a way out of his life with me.

I wish Bramble was here to ask her questions.

Yes and no.

Counselors aren't buying into the addiction theory of what he is doing. Only on here.

So I'm out there alone with these thoughts.

But what about him being with a CRACK ADDICT. They certainly must see him as being CODEPENDENT.

You might need to talk to someone in ALANON.

Oh he absolutely is codependent with her. He WAS with me.

That's why I think that this goes so much deeper. He is one sick human being that has run from his feeligns his whole life. We struggled for so many years as long as I was sick. But as I got healthier and got out of the game, that's when he found her and he changed.

I have no doubt he loves me, he is running from me because I love him totally unconditionally. But he is more importantly running from himself and is blaming me and our marriage.

I think that's what started the possibility of the A and now he is caught up in an ADDICTION...

you are not out there alone with these thoughts. I am thinking them right alongside you. So is Mimi.

For myself, I was not interested in being with a drunk, and watching him slowly waste away, wreaking havoc on his way down. He had already done so much damage. I was not interested in suffering more DDays at his hand, as well as dealing with his alcoholism, and being on guard at all times.


That is a tall order. I did not have the fortitude or desire to keep beating that dead horse.

I still believe he is aware of his choices, just not what they will mean in the end. He chooses to drink and have affairs. HE IS AWARE, on a base level, that this is what he is doing; he's said as much. He doen't, however, choose the consequences.

I have a hard time accepting that we are powerless over our addictions. This is a tough sell for me. I'm working on it. If we were powerless, how would we ever QUIT. I quit smoking. Maybe y'all don't feel that is a tough addiction, but in my life, it is.

So, I understand the addictive process.

Keep your THOUGHT PROCESS going. That's when YOU do so much better, Queenie. WRITE THIS DOWN and when you get into THE FEELING, go back into THINKING..cause you are a SMART and WISE woman and this is a RESOURCE/COPING SKILL for you!! Got me?