Does your church know what a difficult, selfish, and unstable woman she is way before this affair? Maybe they never did know who she really is.!

Of course she appeared perfect in public in the church. But she was dysfunctional, nearly abusive, and selfish and mean in your marriage at home. If they knew who she really was and is they would not be that surprised. I bet you have both hid who she is to the outside world.

But, THIS IS WHO SHE REALLY IS!!!!

"YOU STATED:"""I have treated her like a princess. She does nothing around our house, she allows me to handle most of the parenting chores, she literally just had her job during the day, and a loving home at night. I constantly tell her how much I love her and how proud I am of her and her calling as a hospice nurse.
She has left before (10 yrs ago), so I am guarded as to breaking this cycle that seems to be developing.
I'm not sure I want her back, although I know our children need her.
She just called me moments ago to tell me what scum I was and that I had destroyed the lives of a "good man" and his 10 year old daughter.
Is it normal that my wife would change her story about the OM on a daily basis. It almost feels like she is backing away from her devotion to him, but she isn't yet willing to put any efforts into me. At first, he was just someone she had confided in. Later, he became the man she had met at a hotel 2 hours away. The next day, she attempts to dagger me in the back by telling me how they made mad passionate love, and telling me she is in love with him and has never felt this way about any other man. On Sunday, he returned to just being a friend again. Yesterday, she tells me that they weren't physical at all, as she was on her cycle and today he is a "good man" who doesn't deserve this, he was only a close companion. What the .#$!@#$? I'm getting dizzy here.
Okay, I gave in and called her...too soon! I was told that I had cost her her job and that if I did have any hopes of reconciliation, they are now gone. She said she didn't care if I died today. I shouldn't have called, but I couldn't stand it!

She has a very angry side to her and I have always bore the brunt of most of it.
One update, she did call to ask to come over and see the kids tonight. When I informed her that some of our mutual friends from church were coming over and that the baby was spending the night elsewhere, she went nuts. She cursed at me and told me that she hoped I would wreck my car and die! She called back later to apologize.
she reiterated that she would NEVER live with me again! She now says that she just sees potential for a relationship with OM and that they haven't been intimate. She has always said that she couldn't live alone, even saying she would remarry quickly if I died. She can't see how his presence in this is only providing her comfort to leave. She says they pray for me every night,
1 1/2 years ago, W tried to leave. She had an inappropriate friendship with another of her company's chaplains. So inappropriate in fact, that his wife called me accusing my wife of a PA. I believe that it never got that far, but now think that W was just searching for another man to comfort her when she did this. Remember, she always said she could never be alone!

Many times I have wanted out myself, but would NEVER have considered it because of our children. No one in my family has ever been divorced. I will be seen as the first to graduate college, then the first to divorce. All of my wife's relatives have been married at least 2-3 times!

I DO still want her back, but I don't think she has the self inspection skills necessary to see that we both have made HUGE mistakes in our life together. If she is ever willing to evaluate things honestly, I will gladly take her back and enjoy what a marriage should REALLY be like! But I will not go back to life as it was...if I did, it would only be until the next OM came along, then she would leave again!
I suppose I never mentioned the two previous A's because I had forgiven her and moved on. I have never ONCE mentioned her indescretions to her, even in the most heated of arguments! I am one who believes that, if you forgive unconditionally, you forget as well. Though I know that I never really forgot the other events, I never allowed her to know that they did still bother me at times. Again, I thought things were fine! I assure you, I never ignored my W, if anything, she ignored me!
I am not willing to take W back without intensive counseling
I AM accepting my role in our M's demise, but I can't fix the obvious problems I see while she is not willing to try. A professional counselor would have done us a world of good 10+ years ago, one still could, but I can't MAKE her do this of she is not willing.
Besides, NONE OF THIS excuses 3 affairs!
I CAN and DO except the things that should've been different, but I CANNOT accept her third A in 14 years or believe that anything I have done justifies them. Yes, I DO still love her and would take her back TODAY under the right circumstances (agreement to counseling, true remorse for her actions, etc.), but I will not be convinced that I should feel guilty in any way about the life we had together
I do know that her mother has suggested therapy to her, she only insists that nothing is wrong with her, only me(though she can't offer any specifics). Until when or if the day comes that she is willing to examine herself, R is not in either of our (or our children's) best interest. I am just praying that she will, at some point, look in the mirror and wonder what SHE could've done differently."

Does the church know she had three affairs?

Does the church know she had an affair with a chaplain and tried to break up his marriage?

Does the church know about her other side and her anger issues and how she takes these out on you?

I do regret that I was never honest with my pastor about WHY we were visiting churches. We had just left our previous church due to her first affair with that pastor's son.

However, I will say that I honestly thought she had repented and had realized the terrible mitake she had made. I didn't feel like she should be forced to wear a scarlet letter and admit all of her past transgressions. I certainly wouldn't want to do that.

We just viewed it as a fresh start in a good church. In hindsight, she never received the spiritual counseling and guidance she needed even then.

BTW, YES, I do remember saying that "many times I wanted out." But, I would NEVER have left or filed for divorce. Right or wrong, I view marriage as being for life and I could NEVER have left my children!

Abandoned,

Blame is not what my comments were/are about. I have no time for blame. I have found in my decades on this earth that blame is pretty counter productive. I told you several times and I will repeat it, this situation will take the wisdom of Soloman.

I did NOT offer such wisdom and have no intention of doing so. I can only offer you my view of things. Someone posted, It might have been Stella, that perhaps one thing you should do is break this problem down. What would you do if this baby were not in the picture? What actions would you take to protect your children and yet give them the best chance to not view their mother as the enemy? Start from that. List the actions you would take, including divorce, and then run it by your lawyer and see how many if any actually can and do conflict with your desire to adopt this baby.

It seems to me you have things out of order and thereby are risking your other children via exposure to a woman (their mother) who will abuse them, or they will incite to abuse her to abuse them with their anger.

God Bless,

JL

So I'm trying to figure out why ppl who I really respect a lot, like JL are looking at things differently than I am. Of course that's ok, I'm just trying to figure it out.

And I think I may have an idea. Maybe like the abortion issue (is a fetus a child, or when is a fetus a child), it depends on if or when one considers an adoptive child as much your child as a biological child.

If the youngest D were AW's biological child, I don't think anyone would be telling him to put her up for adoption just because his WW left him, even if she is abusive, even if this ends in divorce.

In my eyes, his youngest D is as much his child as the others, with nothing but some legal paperwork standing in the way, and that is just a matter of time (not unlike a fetus/pregnancy).

She was 2 weeks old when she came to live with AW. That's younger by about 8 months than when my biological kids and I were able to live together! (medical reasons) She isn't a "baby" anymore, she's a toddler (2 y.o.?) IIRC, old enough to form attachments and suffer greatly if she is taken away from the only family she's ever known.

Yes the older kids are suffering too. And I think I see your point, that there are complications due to the worry over the adoption, that at some level are "sacrificing" the quality of care for the older children. If the youngest were legally his that wouldn't be happening.

I would definitely be conflicted, in his shoes. But looking at it from what's best for his youngest D, I disagree that it's best that she be removed from the home. For example, what if this were his biological child, who, say, had some medical problem and didn't come home from the hospital for two weeks after being born. I've never seen anyone on MB advise a BS to give their toddler up to foster care (and no one knows how long she'd be "in the system" before being adopted) just because a WS who is out of the house has been described as being abusive.

Just my 2 cents, and it seems to disagree with some very wise folks here.

aw3 --

As an adoptive parent of 3, I can understand how you might be perceiving some the posts regarding your youngest. It would be easy to read them as "your youngest is not your REAL child, so you have to protect your REAL children first." I am quite sensitive to such things, as those who have not adopted usually have difficulty understanding (deep down) that creating a child and parenting a child are not the same thing -- most societies throughout history have always put great emphasis on offspring.

I can understand why you had a negative reaction to JL's comments, but my experience with him is that he asks the questions that need asking and provokes the thought that needs provoking. That is the case with his post IMO.

I know that you will fight with all you've got for your baby and she is no different in your eyes than your other two. If anyone were to suggest that you should simply give up your baby for the sake of your other children, I know you would rightly be offended by the very thought of it. To you it is the same as asking you to give up your oldest for the other two.

The only difference here is that you are not the only one in a position to decide the fate of your youngest. I know that is a scary place to be. I can only encourage you to act to protect each of your children equally. I think this is where some of the posts are going....to an outside observer it appears as if you are sacrificing the safety of your oldest to ensure the best chance of completing adoption for your youngest. In doing so, you are substituting your own judgment for God's judgment. If God wants this baby to remain with you, it will happen, period. If not, it won't, no matter how many contortions you put yourself through to try and make it so.

As mentioned already, you must ask yourself what you would do if there were no adoption to worry about. Rather than thinking of that negatively, as in "if I did not have the baby" -- think of it in the positive. The question then becomes "if the baby were legally adopted already, would I report abuse of my son to the authorities?" I hope the answer is "YES!" This then should be your guide. You need to act as if this baby is already legally adopted with regard to your actions concerning your other children.

I hope you understand where I'm coming from...

Todd

Jayne,

Actually, I think Todd answered your question about my point of view. But I will also take a crack at it.

You asked
First, thank you for your kind comments. Second, although we respect one another a great deal, it does not mean we have to see things the same way. But, actually I don't have a "way" of seeing this other than what Todd illuded to.

I see the problem being that Abandoned feels his hands are tied because of his desire to adopt this child who he feels is really his child. The DSS has laid out guidelines to him, that don't allow him to contest his W's actions with regard to the other children, her to contest his actions with regard to the other children, or either of them to simply divorce. It seems nutty to me.

But, the point is Abandoned's oldest was apparently abused and he has not reported it, because he feels his hands are tied. IF that is truly the case, then when is the abuse going to be bad enough for him to take action to protect his son, which in fact may cost him the adoption of his baby girl? Personally, I think the abuse is enough right now and the harm that will come from the 12 year old boy having to put up with it OR fight his mother is just NOT RIGHT.

He is being put into a position that apparently he feels requires him to sacrifice one of his children for the good of another and he needs to face this situation and do the best for BOTH of them. It may mean risking losing the little baby.

Hence my repeated comment about needing the Wisdom of Soloman. However, in my mind he cannot allow his older son to be abused no matter how righteous it may seem to both of them. A 12 year old should not be in this position.

If I were running the world, I would say he could adopt this child IF he divorced his W. Enough of this not rocking the boat. But I don't run the world and he has to face some very hard decisions which my reading of his posts suggests to me that he is trying to avoid. Unfortunately, avoiding this decision may well be at a very high cost to his son.

I like the rest of you don't know all of the story. I am hoping that people who do know the story are offering guidance that protects all of the children in this mess.

Does this make sense?? I hope so.

By the way, thanks Todd. Your comments made more sense than mine.

God Bless,

JL

Thanks Todd and JL. In regards to the "abuse:"

The first time I will admit that I dismissed it somewhat because I still felt certain that WW would never really physically harm my son.

Then...when she brutally emberassed him in public at a ballgame, I began to see her true colors.

Last Friday, the phone incident, I wasn't even told about it for two days! yes, I agree it is horrendous! I pray there is never any more physical contact whatsoever.

My attorney feels that we cannot PROVE abuse and that we shouldn't even go there until we can. I do realize that will mean she has to leave a mark on him or a bruise, but that's what I have an attorney for.

I agree that the State is tying my hands with their "don't rock the boat" stance. I do intend to fully delve into that with them next Thursday. It may be that I have to actually file for full custody and force WW to agree to it so that the baby isn't taken. They didn't say I couldn't file, just that there could be no disputes. That's NOT using the child as a pawn, it is doing what is best for the older two and leaving the rest between her, God, and Adoptions.

I will not sacrifice ANY of my children through this!

THANK GOD!!! I just got a call from Adoptions stating that they were coming THIS Thursday...not next! I must have gotten the dates confused. I am SO ready to speak to them and get clarity on their stance in this!

That's good AW3.

Please consider what I shared with you about the post-stress realities that your children will go through as they become teens. I live with it every day and I would give anything for that "re-do" button.

My children were mature for their age, well-adjusted, raised in a Christian home, successful in sports and school, etc. No one would have EVER guessed that drugs and alcohol would have been in the equation in the aftermath of my D from their father.

I don't want it to sound like a broken record so I won't say it ever again, but PLEASE get them into counseling, even if you have to pay out of pocket or find a counselor in another county. Don't give up on finding a program for them LONG-TERM. And please consider not talking to your son like he is mature enough to handle this, even though it feels that way. Try not to involve him and sway him from involvement as much as you can. I say that with love and from experience.

Good luck and God Bless!

What exactly are you paying your attorney for (this is not an accusation, just a question)?

I would submit that it is not your attorney's job to be a parent to your children. It is the parent's responsibility to report abuse. In fact, the parent holds ultimate responsibility regarding their children.

Therefore...PROVING abuse may be the standard for the best legal position with regards to custody or other matters, but it is not the standard by which you should measure your responsibility to be your children's protector. Think about it.

Todd

Also, from a legal standpoint, the authorities DO take into account if there have been multiple reports of abuse, even if they weren't substantiated. So NOT reporting it hurts you and your son. I urge you to report it now, even if it doesn't lead to any concrete action. If he has to continue to see her, after divorce, and she repeats such actions, you will need to show a pattern to get any change.

Jayne, just wanted to say that, despite acknowledging that she is no different from his other kids in terms of time spent, there IS a difference in terms of the baby having the potential to be moved into a family with a mother and father that will offer love her equally, but also offer a family life that will not suffer from a wacked out mother/ex-mother, siblings that hate their mother or at the very least become passive aggressive about it. I'm not trying to belittle his love for his baby, just point out that she is the only one with another option in all this. I hope that they will all create a loving family without issues. But it's a toss up, IMO.

aw3,

Two thoughts:

1) No matter HOW well you believe either of your children are doing, they are NOT doing well. It is not possible in this situation for them to be doing well. You must ASSUME they are doing badly, that they are suffering from feelings of abandonment and confusion and loneliness. They are children and are not capable yet of adult thought and reasoning. I do not have to see them or talk to them or know anymore about them than what you have said here. Your children are in deep mental distress because of their mother's abandonment, YOUR turmoil because of the situation, and the fear that they will lose YET another person(baby sister)! This can not be exaggerated. No matter how much time you spend with them, or how much fun they are having, it is not possible for them to NOT be devastated right now.

You say you belong to a 700+ member church. In my area, churches that size almost always are able to offer some kind of counseling, mostly free of charge. What about your pastor? Associate pastor? Children's pastor? Would any of these people see you all as a family?(sans WW) What about the adoption people? Are they able to recommend or provide counseling? What about the lawyer? Lawyers often know all kinds of avenues for counseling.

Which brings me to point #2.

2) I don't know about your state, but in mine, there is a VERY STRICT AND SERIOUS law regarding suspicion of child abuse. Any person in a position of being in contact with children, or who work for law enforcement, or lawyers, or who are in any kind of medical, psychological or social work field are REQUIRED to report ANY suspicion of child abuse to the proper authorities. Failure to do so can result in a loss of teaching, medical or law license or a loss of job in other areas in addition to other legal consequences. PROOF OF ABUSE IS NOT NECESSARY TO MAKE A REPORT, but failure to report ANY SUSPICION is considered a serious crime. I actually do not agree with the way the law is set up because many people are falsely accused and lose everything because of it. BUT....that is the point. ONLY SUSPICION is necessary. NOT proof. It is very hard for me to imagine that your state does not have a similar law and that your attorney does not realize that he/she would be legally liable for NOT reporting a suspicion.

WH2LE

cat, and JL, thanks for the comments... I hope this isn't a T/J. Or maybe I hope it *is* cus I hope it's not relevant to AW's situation.

If you all (whom I respect) are saying one thing and I'm not seeing it... maybe it's that I have a much much much worse opinion of how bad foster care can be. Not from personal experience or a knowledgeable source, just an impression. So to me what could happen to one child is so much worse than a once or twice incident to the other child. And to me, the possibility that the youngest child could end up in a better home is offset by what might happen in foster care in the meantime, and possibly reactive attachment disorder as a result of being separated from all of the ppl she's bonded with, at the age of two.

Maybe I am overly concerned about such things. I worried a lot about attachment issues with my own kids since I didn't get them full time until they were 8 or 9 months old, and even then I had to leave for a couple more surgeries. The mental health professionals led me to believe it was something to be concerned about.

So I am certainly looking at this through my own filters. I'm not trying to talk you into seeing my POV; if y'all all see it differently, I'm trying to see where my worldview may need adjusting.

Okay guys don't hang me for this.....

But i've kept my mouth shut long enough........okay first off even in divorce the children ALWAYS come first....the courts always do whats best for them.....so why shouldn't he.....The baby has been his child all her life.....and he has been not only her care giver but her DAD. This is the only family who she's ever had who loves her and has raised her....she is a part of them. The One person who has loved her unconditionally is stepping up for her and giving her a family with the brother and sister she's always known.

It is the right thing to do.....the ONLY thing....the fact that it could even be mentioned that he not adopt her does not sit right with me. WW walked off on her own accord and only has herself to blame for what she will miss out on. But that family is still strong without her...because as I see it....she didn't really ever contribute to the family being successful. She she's not missed THAT much. No one likes a spoiled dictator paris hilton type.

AW3 I commend you for being so strong and doing the right thing. You stay strong...... why do I keep wanting to call you A&W?

Guys, I don't want him to give up his daughter, just to acknowledge that there can be success stories out there with other decisions, and that his wife may screw things up so badly that all his kids may end up suffering. Jayne, I guess I was just assuming that if the worst happened, and he lost his daughter, that there are so many families in America on waiting lists to adopt adorable 2 year old girls that she would be whisked into a loving family somewhere, not into the foster system. Which I agree with you about.

Part of the problem with your assumptions is that this little girl is not yet free to be asopted, she is still a foster child technically now. Her father and mother have relinquished, but the attorney for the mother challenged her relinquishment because he was not notified and present. Now, she can't be found so the authorities will have to publish in the newspaper for 3 weeks, then set a court date 30 days later, THEN she has 30 days to appeal the termination. So, as you can see, this will drag out at least 4 more months! In the meantime, she WOULD be in another foster home in my county, and I'm not comfortable with that option to say the least!

During last night's VISIT. WW informed her kids that OM is indeed MORE than just a "friend." She also told them that, if they did not start returning her calls and texts, she would see to it that there baby sister was removed for our home! Great parenting skills, huh?

Of course, this only caused them to resent her more! She is truly digging herself into a HUGE hole with them. How can I defend ANY of this to them?

Sheesh - what a nightmare of a woman!

If the choice is your marriage to your wacko WW and adoption of the baby, it's a no-brainer in my opinion. This is clearly a case where marrital recovery is probably not in the children's best interest (certainly not any time soon anyway - maybe after a Plan B long enough for WW to truly straighten herself out). But it's Aw/3K's opinion that counts and the situation is way, WAY more complicated than that. You are showing incredible strength under an enormous burden. I have no advise but you have my support and respect.

OMG! This is emotional abuse in the worst way. This just pi$$es me off and I don't even have a horse in this race. I hope you're keeping records of this kind of thing. I can see a case of abuse and neglect being built against your wife easily. She doesn't deserve you or her children! If she ever came around, which I'm starting to doubt more and more, the damage she is doing may be unfixable at this point. I'm so sorry for you and your kids.