Sorry, I meant "Since having money to do things is important to him..." I saw where you said it was, I wasn't ignoring you.

Can you think of things to do with all of you? Or could you start joining in the things he takes the boys to? If that would be awkward, then how about *you* think of someplace that *you* are going to take the boys, and then invite him to come along?

I'm glad to hear you are taking care of yourself, getting out with friends and family, and losing some extra pounds. Good job! Also with making sure you and the house look great.

Yes I think a Father's Day gift is a great idea! Remember, in Plan A you do NOT expect anything in return. You do what you want to do, you choose to live the life you want to live, because it's the right thing to do and that's the type of person you want to be.

BTW phrases like "stooping to his level" are DJs. They represent a certain attitude that you should be trying to overcome. Even if you don't say it out loud to him, that kind of attitude will probably show up in your interactions with him, and be an LB to him... but even if he doesn't notice it, it's an LB to *you*. By dwelling on thoughts like that, you are making withdrawals from your own love bank, believe it or not.

Yeah, I didn't believe it either when I first came here. I see that this morning cat says the same thing on one of her posts. (Thanks cat for reminding me of that concept!)

Maybe a good Father's Day gift would be a trip with the kids to an amusement park or something?

He's not interested in all of us doing anything together. When I've tried to do things when he's over he tells me not to play house with him.

I know things aren't good in affair land. He's not going to see her this weekend because he said she has schoolwork to do. I don't ask any questions, but it sounds like she might be pushing him away a little bit. Not too long ago he told me he was going to stay at work during the week and her place on weekends.

I know I have to watch out for those DJ's. I need to work on avoiding those.

Yeah, I struggled with DJs too... and it was hard to believe they did damage when I just thought them, or came here to vent... but they did!

It's good that things aren't good in A land. Show him how wonderful things are at your house.

If he isn't interested in "playing house" then don't try to get him to. Can you think of something simple for Father's Day, that he would appreciate, and that may remind him of happier times?

How much will you see him this weekend? If he's coming over tomorrow (Saturday) then maybe you could arrange to be just walking out the door to do something fun with the kids... no need to invite him, since he's told you that's an LB...

Or if he's coming over Sunday, maybe you could give him the Father's Day gift, spend some time with the kids, then you have to go get ready cus you're busy that night?

Ok so he spent the day with the boys today. I made sure the house was spotless when he came over and all of us looked great.

My 4 yr old gave him the gift-he didn't open it or say anything to me about it at all. He took it with them when he took the boys out and I left in my car at the same time they did as I had plans to have lunch w/my friend. I didn't want him to think I was just going to sit home and wait for him to bring the boys back. Nor did I want to.

When they came back, I asked him to do a couple 'honey-do' things around the house and he did.

One thing I did observe is that he doesn't look good and he doesn't look happy. I have known him for almost 9 yrs and I can tell when he is truly happy and he isn't.

I don't think I've mentioned on my thread that on Memorial Day weekend (before I found MB and knew about Plan A) we were arguing and I said to him, "I don't want you anymore. She can have you and there's no looking back." Since he's the kind of person that will take this comment to heart, I felt I had to undo it somehow.

So, as he was leaving I said, "I just want you to know that in the last month I have said some things that I didn't mean." He replied with "Me too." I then said (and I don't know why I said it or where it came from) but I said "You know-I would never turn my back on you. I just couldn't" He nodded and said "ok"

Was it wrong to have said that? Should I have said specified? I just feel like I have to undo what I said before, especially the part where I said there's no looking back.

As always, any input from the vets would be greatly appreciated! Thank you!

It was fine to tell him what you did. You always want him to know that there is a way back home.

Sounds like it was a good day. Keep up the good work.

Thanks believer! I just feel like I do have to show him that there's a way home.

I always remember what you said at the beginning of my thread when you said "affairs always end." So, I feel like I just have to wait till it ends......for good.

I also wonder if he feels like he's made such a mess of things and doesn't know how to clean it up. But I'm not exactly sure how to help him if this is the case?

I have a question for the vets out there -

Is it normal for WH to not remember things he has said? We have had entire conversations that he seems to have no recollection of and even worse, doesn't recall things he has said...good or bad. Is this part of being wayward?

I've been trying to find more on the wayward script and the fog, but haven't had too much luck.

If anyone can point me in the right direction, I would greatly appreciate it. Thanks!

Shelly,

I don't know if you have told him anything about coming home. Maybe he believes the door is permanently closed.

When you think a person has an idea about what you think - and that idea is wrong - it's always a good thing to say what you need to say.

The hard part here is how to go about doing that. He has to hear you, believe you, and know that it is sincere beyond reproach. So that no matter what OW says or does, deep within his soul, he KNOWS that what you have told him is the truth.


If you want him to know that he could turn this thing around and come home, and you want him to know that there is a clear path to doing it, then put that message out there. You will have to repeat it several times, and you will have to say it calmly and in the same manner every single time you say it. Your delivery will have to be sincere, without any doubt in your voice, and you will have to have his full attention. Your heart must be in it, and the message must never be delivered in sarcasm, anger, or in response to anything angry that he says.

You started that with your message to him, saying you said things you didn't mean. You opened the door.


I think it was probably a surprise to him, and a good move.

If it were me, I wouldn't stop there. I would probably tell him on the very next opportunity that I had, that he could still come home.

Before he left the house, I would reach out and touch his hand. Look straight into his eyes and say, "This IS fixable. I still love you. We can move forward. There is a road home."

Leave him with that message. He will have no option but to drive home with that thought on his mind.

You will have to repeat it. It is likely he will not tell the OW that you said this - because he doesn't want her in on your marital secrets, or that he thought about it all the way home, or that you got to him. If he does tell her, she will say it is a trick - but he will know the difference, in how you spoke, how you touched him. You will plant doubt. Doubt is the enemy of the affair fantasy - it bombs that camp, because it makes him think of home, of what he might be jeopardizing, leaving behind.

Bomb that camp.

Then, find a card with a road on it. Even if you have to cross out the message on the inside, get that card. Put the message inside it that says something like, "the road home does exist".

Tell him that you believe in him every chance you get, and that you believe in the road home. Tell him that you have learned about relationships, changing, about how to make things work after an affair.

If you have to go to a Plan B, you can use the same message in that Plan B letter if you ever get to it. He will keep hearing the same message from you - never waver from it.

SB

Thanks SB!

I definitely think he does feel like he could never come back because I would never get past this

I've thought about saying something like "I know sometimes in life we find ourselves in situations where we feel like so much damage has been done that it can't be repaired. I just want you to know that this CAN be repaired and I am here for you."

Would it be ok to say that? I think it would get the message across especially if, like you said, I say it while touching his hand.

So WH called today and wanted to talk finances. He said he wants to get his own apartment. I had to ask, so I said "I thought you were going to live w/her." He said that he can't because her exH (that she hasn't been with for 3 yrs)is still on the deed for the house and he pays half the mortgage. He went on to say that the exH won't pay if another man lives there so he can't live there.

Is it just me, or does this sound weird? If they're planning a future together and plan on getting married (like he said they are)isn't this house situation going to pose a problem?

It seems like there are more and more obstacles that keep surfacing so as long as I keep up on a good Plan A, I will be showing him the more "attractive alternative"

Yes, keep up the good work.

And yes, that does sound a bit fishy to me. I was wondering, how sure are you that OW and OW's XH are in fact divorced? I went through your thread again, and I saw where you said WH beat you to the punch on exposing to his immediate family... and then you aid you exposed all you could... exactly who have you exposed to, and how?

Have you exposed to OW's family: her parents and her XH???

Also, WH's workplace, extended family, friends, church, OW's workplace, etc. But I'd especially like to hear what XH's reaction will be, in light of what WH told you about the house payment.

Yes, I do know that OW is indeed divorced because her D went thru when Mark was still alive and w/her. I remember him telling WH when her D went thru because I think it was a lengthy one.

As for exposing to OW's exH - he already knows. When WH first left our home he was staying with OW everyday and night at her house. Then all of a sudden he said he would have to start staying at his friends house or down at work. I asked him about it and he said "We're not just going to live together right away" I found this odd because they already had been, and he had already told me that they're planning to get married and they are going to be together forever. So my guess is it took the exH time to realize she had a guy living there and when he did he threatened to stop paying 1/2 the mortgage which resulted in WH not being able to live there.

I just find it strange because I don't know exactly when OW and her exH separated, but it's been at least 3 yrs because it's been 1 yr since Mark died and she was with him for 2 yrs. WH also told me that her exH still gets his mail there?? After 3 yrs, wouldn't he get a PO Box or something? I wonder if he's using the house to keep tabs on her or hang on to her.

Contact him and ask him yourself. You never know what you may learn. Knowledge is power.

Have you exposed to WH's workplace, OW's workplace, OW's family? What about your and WH's friends?

Hi everyone-

Sorry I haven't been on here for a few days with any updates.

There's a lot going on. I'll give the highlights:

1) OW broke up with WH yesterday....again. She said it's for good.
2) OW contacted me. She and I have been talking and clearing the air. She is learning that he lied about A LOT. She says she believes my side because there are no cracks in my story where his story has a lot of cracks that don't add up.
3) OW says she is going to go NC with him once he picks up all his stuff. I might suggest that, if possible, she not be there when he does.
4) OW thinks we should try to work it out and go to MC. She said she will remove herslef from the picture.
5) WH is open to the idea of coming home. He hasn't fully committed yet, but I think he's almost there.

I will post again as things develop. I think a lot is going to happen in the next few days. Please keep your fingers crossed for me that this could be the beginning of R for us. Thank you!

Aaghhh...they have made up once again.

This has been such an emotional roller coaster. I can't believe they made up again. She was so convincing when she told me that it would never work between the..too many differences she said.

When I asked her about it she said "After a long conversation with him, I am convinced his marriage is over"

What I dont understand is, whta happened to all the issues that caused her to break up w/him in the first place? They just disappeared?

So right now I am keeping up w/Plan A and it's a wait & see game.I do feel pretty optimistic though that it will never work between them. This was little breakup #3 in a matter of 6 weeks. She has called things off 3 times in the last 6 weeks so there is definitely troubled water. What I don't know is when the grand finale will be when they break up for good??

Shelly,

Time is on your side. Wait for it.........wait for it.

The fact is that they have found out that the fantasy is not as perfect as they thought it would be.

Don't entertain her calls anymore. She is using you for information, and then uses what she gets to repair the cracks in the relationship with him. Don't feed that pig.

She is as much of a liar as he is. Do not trust her. She will give you information up to the point that it will serve HER NEEDS. Do not for any moment believe that she is doing you a favor - she is not. She is working that line to do her own side of the fence a favor.

However, you can use what she told you to serve your own purposes.

Make a list of the things she said that were negative about him. Then, you write alongside them the argument you would make in your husband's defense. Be sure that you title the list clearly, that the negative things were things THE OTHER WOMAN said, and the good things in his defense are the things you are arging are the things YOU BELIEVE.

When you get a chance, you can slip these into your conversations as part of your Plan A, if the chance or conversation leads that way.

"Honey, you know when I talked to your OW, she said something negative about you. She said XYZ, but I considered that and I believe this about you _________."

By writing it out ahead of time, you give yourself a chance to figure out what you can say. If he runs across the list, it is clearly labeled, and you can tell him that when she called you that you made the list because it bothered you so much. You just admired him too much to allow those negative things to be said about him, and that you wanted to be prepared if she ever called and said those things again - that she caught you off guard and you never wanted that to happen again. And you needed to think things through clearly.


You stick to Plan A, Shelly. I think this affair is burning out, given the fact that he says he is thinking about coming home. You might want to turn up the flames on Plan A.

She has told you some of the things they have fought about. Use them. Send him a card telling him what you admire about him.

Tell him that there is a road home, and that things can be turned around. That you understand that you need to make changes in yourself, that he wants to make changes in himself, and that together you can do that. That a new marriage can be made - and there is no need to return to the "old" marriage. That the problems can be identified, worked out, fixed, and there is love enough to go forward together.

He just needs to stop the affair, for good, and come home.



BTW, I have never heard of an ex husband generous enough to pay half of the mortgage without some sort of benefit for himself. Maybe that "ex" owns an interest in that house? That's my guess. And she would have to buy him out - or something. But the fact is very strange that she doesn't want your H to move in yet...........

I think she doesn't want him to move in because they both know this thing is NOT a forever kind of thing, and she is using him.

This ride is almost over for her. Your husband didn't have what she thought he did - and she's almost ready to kick him to the curb. Except the next OM isn't quite on the hook?


SB

Sorry I haven't been on for a few days...

Not much new to report. They are still 'back together'

I am just so confused by all of this. I really thought it was done. When I spoke to OW on the phone that day for over an hour she had me totally convinced that it was over between them. She told me repeatedly that we should set aside all that has happened and work on our marriage.

The part that also has me confused is she said he threatened her. When she broke up w/him she told him that she is free to do as she pleases and date whomever she wants to. When she said this, WH threatened her and said "If you date someone else, G-d have mercy on your soul. I will start with him and finish with you. I don't even care if I spend the rest of my life in jail."

I don't know how or why she would take him back after a threat like that. i know that this is out of character for him. It's like he's a totally different person.

I am still trying to do Plan A as best as I can. I'm starting to lose hope though because she has broken up with him 3 times now but each time she takes him back within a few days. I do find comfort in the fact that they are having trouble and the relationship is doomed in the long run. I guess I just have to be patient....

Shelly,

If you have done a good Plan A so far, it might be time to start lining things up for your Plan B.

Read up on it. Because if there is trouble in affairland, then Plan B can capitalize on that.

Read about Plan B and see what you think. But whatever you do, don't just jump into Plan B until you have done a good Plan A, and until you are very very very ready to be doing Plan B. There's nothing worse than thinking you are ready to do Plan B and then going back on your word when you start Plan B.

If there is already trouble in his affair, Plan B can really put some stress on it. It forces the OW to have to meet all of his EN's, and you already know she can't. When you close off all communications with him, and start to work on your own needs and yourself, and do not allow him to have any fix of you, then his idea of what life with her in REALITY LAND comes rushing in.

And it won't look so beautiful - it already doesn't.

There are a lot of threads on Plan B. I suggest you start learning about it, and look ahead to how to implement it.

SB

Thanks, SB.

I will read up on it. I know Plan B is where I go NC with him. I'm not sure how we will hadnle the kids if I do this, but I will read about it and go from there.

I know I am meeting some of his needs. He never goes more than 3 days without contacting me in some way. Sure, he finds things to ask me about such as our finances or when will I be moving, but until this last weekend he had contacted me almost everyday. When I asked my therapist about this, she said I must be meeting some kind of need for him or its possible he's doing it just to feel me out and 'make sure I'm still here.'

I am so grateful for everyone's advice and suggestions. Everyone keeps telling me to be patient and wait as this thing crumbles. I do believe that all the signs are there and that this 'relationship' is doomed. I just wish I knew how long it is going to take. Especially since he did mention coming home, that tells me he is contemplating it or, at least, it has crossed his mind.

Another reason for going into PB (Plan B) is if he seems to be cake-eating - having his cake and eating it too; trying to string both of you along.

Like SB says, don't go into PB without a well-thought-out plan. You want a great PBL (Plan B letter) with specific requirements for coming back. You aren't doing it for revenge, you're doing it to protect the best chance at recovery by protecting your remaining love - and you want to make that clear in the letter.

You can post a rough draft here and ppl will help revise it.

And you want the very last thing before going into PB to be a most excellent Plan A encounter: a date would be perfect, but whatever you can arrange, even if it's just a pleasant exchange when picking up or dropping off the kids, with you looking your best also. Leave him with the best memory possible, and then *poof*, go completely dark.

You also need to pick out an intermediary who will handle all necessary exchanges of information and will handle the exchange of the kids. So for example, your H would drop the kids off at this person's house if possible, and then you'd pick them up.

Keep up the good work!