I'd call that pretty accurate. I understand that you all need to resolve this about the honesty in communication. I think the part where you got so angry shows you that this is totally unacceptable for you, and you need to put boundaries around this, too. If you can't get a straight answer from your H, then share how frustrating this is for you, tell him your goal is to work together, but that you've reached your limit of how much you can negotiate with someone who is being dishonest with you. Tell him what you're going to do. Check your intent, so you can be confident knowing that you're making the best decision that someone in your situation can, without second, third fouth, fifth-guessing yourself in a way that is crippling to making decisions.



We all have anger. And our conflicts spark anger in each other. We choose how to respond to that anger.

He has a domestic violence problem. You contribute to it by protecting him from the consequences of his actions. This thrives in secrecy.

I understand that the throwing things is unacceptable, too. But you are clear that this is unacceptable, and when you get past the immediate shock, I fully believe that you'll get a plan in place that would keep you from throwing things again. So I don't see this as a danger going forward, that you're going to keep throwing things.

Stosny' You Don't Have To Take It Anymore, renamed Love Without Hurt, is a great resource.

Ok, I'll try to do this. I would also need to have been more honest with myself, admit to myself that he may have tried to communicate via email and I should read it more carefully. (I get so frustrated - that word again - that he uses email rather than verbal! But I know this, and I want to work on what I *can* change, which is my own stuff, not his.) I was stubbornly trying to force him to communicate verbally by not accepting the email communication. Ok.

But I have a huge question still and don't know how to answer it. " Tell him what you're going to do." What would this be? You mean, what I am going to do in that particular situation I'm asking for info about, if he doesn't give me more info? Or in general, what I'm going to do if he refuses to communicate?


I'm reading on his website right now.

What you're going to do in the situation. You can't POJA with someone who refuses to negotiate with you. So your goal is to work on getting to the negotiation table, but meanwhile, there are decisions that have to be made. Some can be put off, too.

But refusing to communicate is a boundary issue, I think. I mean, is that a marriage? My IC told me that our marriage was over when my H and I were stuck at that point. That was a wake-up call that I needed.

Ok, I'm working out here what I can say sincerely:


"H, what I did was wrong and I feel really bad about it. I know that I have to do better when I'm dealing with frustration, and I promise explore that. Breaking things is unacceptable and it shows clearly that I have some personal work to do when it comes to anger management. What's happening to us right now is really stressful and it's important that I can talk to you and that I know you're listening. I'm sorry I didn't find a better way to communicate that. Please forgive me."


"When I want to discuss something that has a time constraint and you walk away with a brief or no answer, I feel stuck and frustrated. Yes, factually I should be able to make a decision without your input, but I have been embarrassed before when I tried that and people wondered why I didn't know you had already made other arrangements. This Independent Behavior is a huge love buster for me, and I want you to know how much harder it is to love you when you don't communicate.

I want to stay married to you, but I hate the example we are giving our kids. Me going into withdrawal won't help that, but I don't know what else I can do if the Independent Behavior and Dishonesty (which includes lack of communicating important things) continues.

A good plan that would help me control my anger and not break things would involve seeing a Marriage Counselor and/or working through the MB exercises. If you won't do that, then I must withdraw emotionally at least some. I tell you because you should know, but you may not even notice."

That is what I feel I can say with sincerity. Anyone have any comments before I print it out and hand it to him? (I figure that's best since written stuff is his referred method of communication, and since that way I don't have to worry about saying something wrong.)

ETA: I could also say the following with sincerity:

"How things get so physical, on both our parts, concerns me. Us just talking, apologizing, and saying we'll do better isn't working. I would really like to sit down and work out a plan for solving problems non-physically, and for what to do when things begin to get out of control. Unless and until you agree to do that, which will take time and communication, I am shutting down emotionally because I don't want to reinforce that behavior by dismissing it with just an apology without a plan to solve the problem, and I don't know what else to do right now."

I've tried to check my intent and make sure I'm not saying these things to punish or coerce. I think I don't have any DJs or SDs. But if anyone sees anything I should change please let me know.

Well, bizarre.

I gave him the letter. He read it, and said something like, it was a nice letter, and he'd think about it while he mowed the lawn if that's ok. I said yes.

I don't understand how he thinks it was a "nice" letter! Unless he didn't read past the first paragraph. (BTW thanks star for giving me those words... I only wrote them once I meant them, but thanks for giving me such a good way to phrase it.)

Or maybe he's glad I'm withdrawing emotionally, so he doesn't have to worry about interacting??? DJ I know. <----- me being resentful.

And I've learned this morning from reading, that resentment comes from having expectations, feeling entitled to something... so, for example feeling like I "own" him, that I am entitled to having him meet my EN for Conversation and H&O.

So...... looks like I need to join, or re-join, the ranks of those working on owning my stuff and letting go of his stuff. I can't make him meet my ENs, and apparently it causes problems if I feel entitled to it also. I guess I was acknowledging that I couldn't force him... but I still felt like I was entitled to it, even if I couldn't force him to do it.

All the things I've been telling others.

"so, for example feeling like I "own" him, that I am entitled to having him meet my EN for Conversation and H&O."

Yes, just tell your husband this statement. "Sweetie, I OWN YOU! and I WANT YOU AS MY ONLY FRIEND! To talk to, to relate with, to have fun with! I DEMAND IT!" say it with a smile but say it nonetheless...it is the truth.

Do you depend on your husband to be the main friend in your life? To fill all your needs for communication, etc? You expect some things of him he is not filling. What are those expectations?

1. My H should be my only friend.
2. He should meet all my needs for communication
3. He should ease all the stress in my life
4. He should meet all my needs for fun
5. He should____________________
6. Etc___________________________


Look at what you expect of him. You have to see this and see "where he falls down" in your expectations before you know how to handle this. How does he fail you.

1. He is not a good communicator
2. When I need to talk with him he is not always there for me
3. He clams up and I cannot pry him open to serve my needs
4. He does not say what I want him to say
5. When he says what I want him to say, it is because i force him.
6. He is not perfect
7. I dont like _____and _________about him.
8. I dont like when he does____________.
9. I would be happier if _______________.

This touch of humor is the type of thing that often works for us... I can do this if I'm not in withdrawal. Am I?

... Is this type of humor, sweeping the problem under the rug, allowing us to forget it happened without solving the problem?


Not intentionally, but our lives are so busy that I don't have a lot of time for outside friends. And what friends I do have are often guy friends and I don't want to go too far in that direction. I had a circle of female friends at my work but we've drifted apart, and a lot of them are leaving or have left due to the bad work environment.


1. My H should be my only closest, most reliable friend.
2. He should meet all at least 50% of my needs for communication.
3. He should ease all the stress in my life offer support when I feel stressed.
4. He should meet all my needs for fun find some time for us to do un things together as a couple and as a family.
5. He should share with me his plans and thoughts regarding activities and objectives, information about the activities of the day, especially those affecting me, and his emotional reactions, both positive and negative, especially regarding my actions.
6. Etc___________________________


1. He is not a good communicator
2. When I need to talk with him he is not always there for me
3. He clams up and I cannot pry him open to serve my needs
4. He does not say what I want him to say
5. When he says what I want him to say, it is because i force him.
6. He is not perfect
7. I dont like how much he IBs and how he withholds information.
8. I dont like when he clams up.
9. I would be happier if he would talk to me more.[/quote]

**************************************************************

from the Stosny website:


*sigh* So withdrawal is out???


I have stress and problems at work, my network of friends has dwindled to almost nothing from lack of time, and I'm fighting invisible barriers of sexism. The work problems may soon change though.

"... Is this type of humor, sweeping the problem under the rug, allowing us to forget it happened without solving the problem?"

NO. It is momentary humor to eliminate or ease the fighting. You still must deal with the difficult issues.

If you have so little time, this translates into not having time for friends and instead depending too much on your spouse to meet many of your needs. If he has little time too, it makes it hard to meet anyones needs.

What I do sometimes is I meet all my own needs for a day. What usually happens is my Husband starts thinking up nice things or ways to surprise me with things or a nice dinner or a drive to see a pretty sight. How independent are you? You sound like you could meet many of your own needs. If you did that, you might be able to be more pleasant around your husband and not lay so much on him. I dont mean withdrawal, I just mean not DEPENDANCE on him so much. Just for a week or two as an experiment.

Or try one week of just fun. How was the vacation, did you feel he communicated to you better during that time?

Yes, the vacation was awesome. I crave conversation so much, and we had so much time alone together just driving... even though he isn't very prone to having real conversations, more just one-liners maybe, I'm so starved that every little thing helps.

I'm not sure how I'm really dependent on him... these past couple weeks I've asked him to look over and edit a lot of the letters I was sending out. I also asked his opinion about several things. Other than that, I think I asked for nothing for me... except yesterday I asked for a hug, playfully.

He's doing a lot of the DS stuff and I should probably start taking on more of that. He does most of the cooking nowadays also since he's been the one staying home. Also I'm sure he wants me to finish clearing up the paperwork - I've made some headway but it's still not done.

Is this what you mean? I get the feeling you mean more "emotional" needs, but there's really not that much going on, he's just not that kinda guy. Unless there's something I'm not seeing, which could be.

Wow, Stella, I am so amazed that the two of us see this SO differently. I think it would be a HUGE problem if I was trying to go out to where my H had been given an offer, so I could interview there, and talked to him about when my interviews were, and he lied to me about helping with the kids, and told me I couldn't use the daycare that I lined up, because he found some part-time one that was only open some of the time I was scheduled for interviews.

I would not take that as I was too "needy." She's been wokring in this for what, a year or more now. I would take it that we have a HUGE problem that we NEED to get a solution in progress for NOW.

Stella, this guy has been sponging off her, not working for a year now, pushing her and their kids around and bullying them. He's not too busy to talk. She's been meeting all her own needs for years. He used to work in another country part of the year, leaving her with young twin boys to care for. She's more than tried the meeting her own needs and giving him more space.

Wow, ears.. I'm so touched that you would stand up for me so strongly! Thanks... *sniff*

Oh my goodness, and thanks for bringing the balance, jayne. I forgot about the DS stuff, and I can imagine that's not easy.

One benefit from Stella's advice is that as you recognize and let go of your expectations, you hopefully will get more clarity, instead of second-guessing whether you created this.

My fear is that, like you posted on Soolee's thread, that we're raising ANOTHER generation of kids who are willing to recreate this. Did your kids hear or see this? I remember as a kid how scary it was to see my mom hurt, and how confusing that she didn't protect herself from it.

They were downstairs with the tv on, I'm not sure they heard anything.

Yes I remember that too, as a kid.. I would come running in like a terrier or something, trying to defend her... so it's more likely to get that kind of reaction from me, rather than cowering. Which is a problem too.

Ears, I did have it completely wrong. Thanks for illuminating me. And I may know why.

I have so much respect for Jayne and her intelligence that I find it hard to believe she would put up with a dirtbag. lazy user of a man like that even for a few weeks much less for 6-10 years! It just does not add up that she would pick a man like that to marry and have a family with.

So I assumed he had some things going for him in order to have her not divorce him immediately. I was searching for those things. I forgot the guy was that way.

Jayne, is the guy so lame that you are resentful of him most of the time? Then ignore my advice and find a way out of the marriage. He is an idiot.

I respect YOU and I thought because of YOU that he had a lot going for himself or you would not have hitched yourself to him.

Why did you marry this particular man? Are you trying to change a man who has bad qualities to begin with????

There is such a thing as putting up constantly with a stupid, lazy, bad egg. This is no kind of life.

If he is so good with so many good qualities I want to help you get your needs met thru the marriage or outside the marriage (not an affair).

But if he is an idiot, selfish, stupid, lax, lazy, and you have to drive him like a horse and whip him to get him to do the right things,(I have been there too with a man like that I dumped), then perhaps rather than wasting 25 more years being irritated by this man or whipping him like an animal to perform normally, you need to just lose this millstone.

Which is he???

Jayne- here is what I think of you based on your writings here:

1. You are extremely smart
2. You are kind
3. You have a sense of humor
4. You are hard working
5. You are realistic
6. You are amazing, being able to raise twins and work
7. You are insightful
8. You care about people

Now, why in your mind, would you marry a man who is not YOUR CALIBER! I cannot understand it. Either you married a man wayy lower in caliber than you or....????? Or, he is better than you let on. To us here.

He's not exactly dead weight. Actually not even close. He does almost all of the DS and FC stuff now that he's here. It was really rough when he was in Canada though. He helps me in a lot of ways, in the things I'm weakest with - organization, paperwork, taxes, packing for trips, keeping the car maintained, etc. He just doesn't contribute anything to the U.S. expenses. He pays for the expenses when we spend the summers in Canada. If he takes this job he'll be making more than I am now, and prolly more than my new job would be too.

I sometimes do ask myself whether I'd be better off without him. I asked myself that yesterday. Even at my angriest, I knew I would be worse off without him. That doesn't mean I'm "using" him, it just means that he does meet *some* needs, like DS, FC, and RC. Even if those aren't my most important, they are important to the well-being of my family. I do love him, and the kids love him. Both me and the kids would be worse off without him. And I'm a better mom when he's around, because I'm less stressed.

I am glad you said that. I knew there was a lot of positive there. At least I was hoping so.

So after H finished mowing the lawn, I was taking a shower after cleaning the bathroom. He asked if he could join me in the shower, something we used t do a lot, not so much lately. He's being pretty nice to me, but he hasn't brought up the letter any more.

What do I do if he doesn't suggest we talk about any of the things I mentioned in the letter?

Lotta positive. Yes. Just not Conversation, which is my biggest EN, but then again I knew that going in. Now you know why I went ahead, even knowing he wasn't big on my biggest EN.

ETA: So if I knew it going in, I guess I should lay aside my expectation, entitlement, resentment. Fair enough.