Mimi

That is what I thought. I didn't do well today. I spent the whole morning Plan A'ing, and he spent a lot of time wanting to talk about us. I did stop him and side track him several times and it just didn't work.
I lost control bcos he was trying to justify the affair, by talking about how she was just going after what she thought was right, how his family had given them blessings. I thought this was plain disrespectful and I had to put an end to it.
I made the mistake in
a) crying
b) then trying to explain how wrong this was morally etc
which was all plain wrong, wrong, and wrong!!
He has agreed no phone contact, and he doesn't have my new number.
I am thinking I need to finish on a good note for Plan A to work. But I need to recover some of my self esteem as that is impeding my ability to carry out any of these plans.
I think reducing contact with him right now n focussing on work n studies is the way forward. This should help my confidence, I can then probably work a better Plan A ending,

How does that sound?

I can ring Dr Harley, but does he accept overseas calls?

Brown,
If your decision is prolonged misery, that is your decision.

This is your life.

A plan A ending!!???

He is so ripe for PLAN B I think he is like a fruit about to burst! He is wayyyyy past plan A. If you do plan A anymore you are going to contribute to his cake eating. In fact you will be basically allowing him to eat cake. As you are now. He has no absolutely NO consequences for his actions in boinking the other woman and moving her into your home. Brown, do you see he has not one consequence for doing that?


What will stop him from continuing. If anything stops him, that is, It is Plan B.

Only U:

I'm not enabling Brown's INADEQUACY.


Brown is not going NUTS.


No more NUTS than any of us here have been.


IMO, Brown is not choosing to follow the plans.


This is what I am saying that Dr. Harley has said here.

I don't experience Brown as being any different than most BSes.

Nor do I experience her WH as being particularly different.




That's just it. I want BROWN to begin to take PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY for her OWN LIFE. I'm not throwing her anywhere. She is CHOOSING to do this to herself, IMO. I've seen her act from a position of STRENGTH...like the night she was out with her girlfriends..she goes to work everyday and performs her duties as AN ACCOUNTANT...

For her OWN PERSONAL GOOD, I want her to experience herself as a STRONG, COMPETENT WOMAN....not a woman who "CAN'T"...

I was like this, Not2 was like this.. "MY" QUEEENIE and many others of us were...and look at us now..we are FIGHTERS..We STAND TALL...

I think PLAN B is on the horizon...but it wouldn't hurt to go out with a BANG..because HE actually is RESPONDING to her PLAN A..he went from not calling her AT ALL..to wanting a DIVORCE..to this that we witnessed TODAY...

U got a point, Mimi!

Mimi,
How much longer does this need to go on before you will tell her to go to Plan B?

I honestly do not think that she can go out with a BANG. My opinion. And I think telling her to go back to Plan A and do this has enabled her poor decisions.

She wakes up every morning and looks for reasons to not take action. You can read the hamster wheel in her posts. My opinion again.

And since I'm the one that brought up the fact that "we" as her supporters need to be on the SAME PAGE, I'm going to stop posting until she is in Plan B so that our disagreements don't distract from the work that needs to be done.

Perhaps you should address her question in regards to Dr. Harley taking overseas calls. I think she would do well to hear his input on her situation.

Good luck Brown!

It's either PLAN A or PLAN B.

She's in PLAN A until she gives him that letter and is READY to go DARK and STAY DARK.


We can't ORDER, Brown to do anything...

Only make suggestions...

BROWN, YOU ARE IN CHARGE OF YOUR LIFE!!

That's what I am wanting for YOU..to TAKE CHARGE of YOUR LIFE...

And I see you getting there....

I'm actually trying to DISCOURAGE your PASSIVITY and sense of HELPLESSNESS..


And just like you said, Only U, we are ALL DIFFERENT and may not be EXACTLY on the SAME PAGE...that's GREAT to have different opinions...As you can tell, I'm not always gonna AGREE...I do, though, RESPECT, your opnion...

It's up to BROWN to decide what SHE wants to do...

BROWN, I WANT YOU TO DECIDE...WITH STRENGTH and CONVICTION...

I think it would be WONDERFUL if you could consult with the Harleys some kind of way...

In Brown's situation, it is counter-productive to be giving her contradicting suggestions. As she stated earlier today, she was confused by our posts. You may think you can clear it up for her and I may think I can clear it up for her, but she's the one "getting lost in the shuffle" and no good is coming of it.

I think Brown will DO just fine.

Come on Ucan, we ALL are DIFFERENT.

We ALL will post differently.

I hope EVERYONE will continue to post to BROWN.

I will not ENABLE her sense of herself as being INADEQUATE.

She is just as COMPETENT and ABLE as anyone else.

Brown:

IMO, you have learned to put yourself down and I will personally will not support that in you.

You are not CONFUSED.

You will not get support from ME by seeming to be INCOMPETENT and INADEQUATE.

YOU ARE NOT!!

If you get CONFUSED, like all of us do from time to time, you will be able to FIGURE it out. It's not all that COMPLICATED. PLAN A then PLAN B...all spelled out in SURVIVING AN AFFAIR...

And UCan..I respect your decision and opinion..but look at your SCREEN NAME

Mimi is right,....Until Brown experiences for HERSELF being strong and confident around her WS, she will not understand what Mimi is trying to tell her. I know.....

Heck, in my sitch, WS and I had this counseling appt. where he was going to tell me the "truth". Everyone around here didn't think I should go, INCLUDING MIMI. They didn't have faith I could be strong, and why would they, I hadn't shown that consistantly. Well, I went anyway, and walked away from that appt. shining like a beacon. I was strong, confident, CONTROLLED and poised through that whole meeting (which the truth wasn't revealed anyway....). But it wasn't until I did this did I truly believe and understand my strength and courage.


Thing is, PLAN B does not work well if you can't stick to it. And IMHO, Brown is not going to be able to do that...(now for me, I was so freaking ready for Plan B, but that is the conflict-advoider in me....Mimi wouldn't let me run and hide.... ;)).

Also, If I am not mistaken, Brown was confused because U and stella told her not to go, and Mimi and I thought it was a good idea. Now for me, I liked all the advice I was ever given even if it was conflicting, because it helped me to see things from all angle's. Also, I knew these MB principles inside and out, and so those who gave me conflicting advice I ignored.......


not2fun


ps...hey Mimi, thanks for the vote of confidence....NOT that I needed it....

Yea..I've been telling BROWN over and over to READ THE BOOK..that's KEY in helping out with CONFUSION over conflicting OPINIONS..GO TO THE SOURCE..

And you are SOOO right, NOT2..about you and the counseling session...I recall being so HAPPY for YOU and PROUD of you...

Thanks for reminding me..that put a smile on my face...

I LOVE to HEAR IT WHEN WOMEN RISE UP...

I'm such a stickler on this 'cause I USED to be just like BROWN..little did I know how UNATTRACTIVE it was to my H and others...

Just today my H was communicating to me to STOP WHINING..and to SPEAK UP, yes, ME..about wanting some of his SEAFOOD PLATTER.."You better speak up or I'm going to eat it all up..people that don't speak up get left out"..he used it to make this point AGAIN...he SOOO likes that in ME now..and doesn't like passivity in others...(where's my rolling eyes friend?)

And I do too...

Brown, please listen to Mimi. What happened to me today would never have been possible without the work on the inside and listening to all who post to me.

Never in my dream would I imagine that I could walk out of that court room in any shape but a total mess. I'm NOT. Have my seconds, but that's all.

You can DO THIS. If I did, you can.

Not true.

This was my response when Brown first mentioned meeting with her WH.

Because I did not want to send her mixed signals in a critical time.

This was my 2nd response.



Followed by this in the same post.


And so on and so on.

Now that they have met, YES, I have stressed to Brown to not meet with him again.



Mimi et al...

I don't disagree with the outcome that you are hoping that Brown has - ultimately Recovery. I just feel like she is getting mixed signals here.

In your post regarding Princess "getting the prize", you highlighted:

And you stated in your own thread that she should go to Plan B.

What if she keeps failing at going out with a BANG? My question was how long until enough is enough? When will the tide turn and everyone be on the same page that this gal needs to be in Plan B (because everyone has stated that) and stop sending signals that she can't "go there" until she has satisfactorily "graduated" from Plan A.

That's all I'm saying. I am pro-marriage and anti-abuse.

Emotional strength is EXTREMELY different than Intellectual strength.


It is her Intellectual strength that allows her to succeed at her job, not her Emotional strength.

I'm an Accountant, been a Controller 10 of the 20 years of my career. I ran a department of 30 people when I was in the worst of my Infidelity years. Received bonuses and promotions and probably had some of my best career years. At home, I was a minute away from going to the ER for Anxiety attacks and hyperventilating. Took Xanax and AD's.

My point is that you are asking her to be something that she is not right now and would probably have a better chance of becoming if she were in Plan B. Dr. Harley does not suggest that a person continue in an abusive environment indefinitely in Plan A.

Brown is different than you mimi, she's different than me.

I think it would behoove her to talk to Dr. Harley. I do hope that she will follow up on that.

Enough said.

OnlyU,

You are right. You did say you were waiting for Mimi's reply. I forgot that part. My deepest apologies.

I think I confuse what you are saying sometimes because you and I are seeing Brown's sitch from different POV.

You see, she may have found out about the A in FEb., but she didn't come here until 5/15. She just NOW finished SAA. I my eyes I see her as only being in Plan A for a little over a month now.

For me personally (and yes I realize she is not me or u or anybody else....) I wholeheartedly believe I would not be where I am today if I had gone into Plan B sooner than I did. And there were MANY MANY times when the good people here were telling me to go there. I know they were doing that because they cared and WS was not treating me right, but the timing was not right. I can also attest when those who told me to go to Plan B, Mimi was one of the FEW who told me "NO WAY,,,,,YOU HAVE NOT DONE A GREAT PLAN A..." Plus, she is dealing with a WS who is not living at home (like ME...), which IMHO gives her a little more leaway.

She has not gotten her Plan A done well YET. She is getting there, but it does take a little time. And honestly, the best Plan B's are done when they are dark....which is easier to do if the BS knows they have done the BEST PLAN A they could.

Now, I understand what you are saying about her not handling herself well at this point, but I didn't either at the beginning (I am not talking about when I found out about the Affair, I mean at the beginning of Plan A....). It took me many trials and errors to get there. I BELIEVE Brown will get there. We are already seeing some good and strong changes in her. She can handle this. And on the days she can't, she can come here and we will lift her up....(ok, maybe not Mimi, but Mimi being the Master at this gets that right.... ;)).

So I am not knocking your advice, just showing you where we are coming from.....

stay on board......Brown needs the support....

not2fun

ps....my apologies again....

Thank you not2fun. I appreciate that.

I personally do not believe that being in Plan A another day is going to help Brown and that's why I said I will bow out until she is in Plan B. It's not my place to bicker about that back and forth between posters, works against Brown.

I will continue to check back and see if she is in Plan B and jump back in again at that point.

I also strongly feel that as long as there is confused energy on her post, she will stay in a confused state. Brown's emotions are raw.


Brown,
I'm sorry for taking up so much of your thread with "my issue".

Guys
Thank you so so so much for caring. I am in a better frame of mind today.
I have been thinking about all that has been said.
I recognise a fundamental problem with me - which lack of self worth and self esteem. I do feel that without H, there is nothing great about me. That is why I have not been able to do a good Plan A. I now understand why it is important to love one's self before expecting love from someone else.
This dawned to me at a particular point yesterday. I spent a lot of the afternoon - (wrongly I might add) getting into an argument about the rights and wrongs of this.
In the end I gave up and said I will go dark until he leaves her. After a while he admitted that he hadn't signed the papers, and that he was with her mostly out of pity - though there was some love. I realised at that point that he resented the weakness in her.
But also I need to be strong for me, for my survival. If he ends up coming back it should be for love and not pity. If he would rather then fall for someone who is manipulative n uses pity as a tool then there is something fundamentally wrong with his thinking. I do keep on thinking that if i appear weak then he will feel sorry for me n come back bcos that is what she is doing. But i don't want to b a horrid person, and i deserve love not pity.
Yesterday, I asked him what was great about her and he couldn't come up with one thing. Yet when i asked him what he saw in me, n he said that he saw someone that he once wanted to be, a mirror of all the good things in him.
So we ended on he has to call me if he needs to speak to me, and in the meantime i am going to concentrate on loving me and making a better life for me. Whatever i do in terms of Plan A has to be with no expectations.

Only
I really do appreciate your input, you are almost devil's advocate here, and i need u to stay here and be that for me. Whatever, i decide is based on what i feel i can achieve, and that may not always be right and that is why i need someone who can give me that other option. So please Only don't go!

Brown,
My only concern is further confusing you. I know that you are struggling. No ONE person has all the answers for you, in fact, YOU are the one that God gives the answers to. IMHO

Based on my limited knowledge of your situation, it appears that your WH addiction is actually to the "weakness" that he sees in you AND the OW. He plays cat and mouse with both of you. He receives some sort of payoff for it obviously.

My suggestion that you go to Plan B is not as a punishment for you or your WH, but as a way for you to break free from this cycle and begin to be STRONG and show him a different way. In an odd way, I believe that your Plan B will be what causes him to find you more attractive. I think that's what pom was trying to say.

Consider this:

Nothing you have done so far has made a noticeable impact.

Your heart/spirit/natural knowing keeps telling you that taking care of yourself is the answer. (i.e. house, career, emotions, etc.)

The bickering back and forth is not healthy for you and it just "feeds" this addiction that he has.

You do deserve love, not pity and you may not get that until you have taken a stand for yourself.

You are not going to gain self worth and self esteem continuing to do a Plan A for your addicted spouse. There's too many traps in your communication/situation with him.

I know that Plan B will be hard for you because you have become addicted to this sorrow as well.

Will you consider a 12-step program in Alanon or Codependents Anon? Do they have those programs where you live? I think you will find great peace in learning and understanding these steps?

I'm here Brown, I just feel that it is counterproductive for those that care for you to play the right/wrong game and I truly apologize because I have done that!

BROWN, IF YOU CONSIDER THIS AS A POSSIBILITY, HERE ARE "SOME" OF THE SIGNS OF CODEPENDENCY, FOLLOWED BY THEIR 12-STEP PROGRAM.

Denial Patterns:
I have difficulty identifying what I am feeling.
I minimize, alter or deny how I truly feel.

Low Self Esteem Patterns:
I have difficulty making decisions.
I judge everything I think, say or do harshly, as never "good enough."
I am embarrassed to receive recognition and praise or gifts.
I do not ask others to meet my needs or desires.
I value others' approval of my thinking, feelings and behavior over my own.
I do not perceive myself as a lovable or worthwhile person.

Compliance Patterns:
I compromise my own values and integrity to avoid rejection or others' anger.
I am very sensitive to how others are feeling and feel the same.
I am extremely loyal, remaining in harmful situations too long.
I value others' opinions and feelings more than my own and am afraid to express differing opinions and feelings of my own.
I put aside my own interests and hobbies in order to do what others want.

________________________________________________________________

The Twelve Steps of Co-Dependents Anonymous

1. We admitted we were powerless over others - that our lives had become unmanageable.
2. Came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.
3. Made a decision to turn our will and lives over to the care of God as we understood God.
4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
5. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being, the exact nature of our wrongs.
6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.
7. Humbly asked God to remove our shortcomings.
8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed and became willing to make amends to them all.
9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.
10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong, promptly admitted it.
11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood God, praying only for knowledge of God's will for us and the power to carry that out.
12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to other codependents, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.