SWW--I do apologize for the t/j, but I just have to say to Aphelion, "If you're truly leaving the boards, I want you to know that on a day a few weeks ago when I couldn't find much humor in anything, I chanced across your tag line about the lunging eel and bitten snout, and it's made me laugh ever since every time I think about it."

Wish everything here were funny...for all of us. More's the pity that it isn't. Too bad, but sometime's a moray's just an eel.

SWW,

You are making progress and that is good. Telling lies has been her "safe mode". It's an old habit that has to die hard.

EA or PA or ONS - it all hurts, and it all hurts your M.

Stay with the MB program, it works. You will have ups and downs, but don't give up.

I think it's important that you are open to the issues that put your M in a vulnerable place where an A could happen. Doesn't mean it's your fault, she made a choice that she needs to be accountable for, but I think that when the BS is able to own their own accountability in M recovery, it makes it a bit easier.

Much further to fall when you put yourself on a self-righteous pedestal and then realize that you might have some ownership in a M problem.

Make sense?

You're doing great!!! Keep it up and continue to stay the course.

onlyUcan,

thank you so much for the encouragement! I was begining to give up on the whole thing in the space of an hour. I can't believe this woman would do this.

She is still making excuses, basically saying that there is no moral equivalency, BUT, she wants me to understand her hurts too.

I am patient, and mostly just listen through long silences until the words come out when we discuss this stuff. There are times when I feel so disgusted that i just want to give up on the whole thing, tell the whole world what she did and move on and let her fall into the ash heap of desolation.

onlyUcan,

Also, has anyone ever heard of this type of affair. I mean is it possible for a woman to have a PA that is with someone they are not in love with or have an extremely close connection to?

Being a guy I just always assumed that women were supposedly incapable emotionally for that type of thing. Is it a thrill ride or do you think she is lying?

SWW,

Read my thread on 'is it worth asking the question "why"'..there are some good replies in it.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubb...in=150604&Number=2058329#Post2058329

At 40 something (which I believe your WW is), I can honestly say that there is a possibility of a PA that was "all about sex". Especially based on her history.

She had the H and kids at home, it appears this was her desire to fulfill what she perceived as a "need" to be wild, party and have "something different".

A's are addictions and addictions look different, depending on what need they are fulfilling for the person addicted. Some Affairs/Addictions are completely fulfilling an EMOTIONAL NEED and some are fulfilling a PHYSICAL NEED.

However, that doesn't give her an "excuse" or a "get out of jail free" card just because there were not feelings involved.

It is my belief that the act of infidelity is not what does the greatest damage to the M. It is the lying / covering up afterward that does the greatest damage, To yourself and your wandering spouse.

With that said: Here are a few things that can help you and your spouse.

1. She must be totally honest with you about everything
2. She must answer every question that you ask truthfully and fully.
3. She must do everything in her power to prove to you that you are the one that she wants to be with.
4. She must prove her love to you ... She must be patient, gentle, compassionate and understanding.
5. She must feel your pain.
6. She must fully understand the devastation that she caused you.
7. She must accept full responsibility for her actions.
8. She must stop all contact with OP and not protect them.
9. She must reassure you that it is OK to ask questions. Having the truth is the only way that you can truly heal.
10. She must reassure you that she will not drive you away by doing the things that are necessary to heal.
11. She must learn to recognize when you are struggling or experiencing a trigger and comfort you.
12. She must be able to tell you how sorry she is and show you.
13. She must re-enforce to you, that you are not responsible for her affair.
14. She must put her own feelings of guilt and shame aside and help you heal first.
15. She must reconnect emotionally, mentally, and physically with you and stay connected.
16. She must work on rebuilding trust. No secrets. No privacy.
17. She must be willing to seek counseling.

Here is a list of things that you must do:

1. Give her the necessary time to prove her love and commitment to you.
2. Be open with your feelings.
3. Ask the questions that are important to you.
4. Don't be afraid that she will drive you away while you are trying to heal.
5. Stop blaming yourself for her actions. You are in no way responsible for her choice to engage in an affair!
6. You must be able to let her connect with you. (this one takes time)
7. You must continue checking up on her in order to rebuild trust.
8. You must be willing to seek counseling so that you do not get stuck in one of the stages of recovery: such as anger or depression.

These are just a few of the things that I have thought of off the top of my head. With these things in place, then reconciliation can be successful. It is still a long journey, but with baby steps it can be achieved.

Excellent post WTF.

walkingthefield,

All I can say is wow!

Yes, such a good list.....nice!

And SWW, your wife seems like she is "trouble" and toxic for many many years prior to any affairs. I would look at HER and how she has BEEN. And her lies and manipulations. You may find she is simply TOXIC all around and is not good for YOU no matter what. If you observe carefully and see that she is TOXIC to you then face that truth and act accordingly.

You never know, perhaps this affair was the straw that broke the camels back, perhaps this is the shovel needed to unload the last yard of dirt on the coffin that is here toxic heart.

If you had not found out about the affair, you might not know how manipulative and toxic she really is! And it is a good thing to know her true personality!

Can a woman just has an affair for sex without a mental connection? Yes.

Could WW of said it was just sex to lessen the hurt that you would feel if if you had learned that the WW also emotionally bonded with the OM? Yes.

Will we know if it was only sex? Who knows.

Stellakat

you have a good point. i think mostly i am just afraid. I have been kind of afraid of her for years to be honest, for 5'2" 105 lbs she is kind of a bully.

I will do MB for awhile though, i am of course still fighting those mental images of her in a relationship where she was just seeking SF gratification and companionship. Maybe I am old fashioned, but I just thought it was a pretty rare female that would do that, other than say a 1 night stand. I got a lot to learn it would seem.

TheRoad,

Well I guess you are right, we will prob never know. I can find evidence of a PA, but I can't climb into someone's head if they don't want to talk. If it was possible for a woman to do it and then compartmentalize it, my WW is the one to do it though. She is a master compartmentalizer, never shares her feelings or thoughts.

She used to be pretty much a nymp*omaniac too. I can only imagine the wild ride and verbal antics old charlie must have gotten...

SWW,

I think Road's comment about your WW telling you that it was just SF to lessen the blow may be closer to the truth. I think there are probably women out there who can have SF without emotions, but chances are there was some EA involved. She may not even see it at the moment...she is still foggy.

A comment about your email to her. I would be careful about the way in which you remark about behavior. It's a subtle thing, but I noticed a lot of "YOU statements"...you telling her what she knows or what she can and cannot do...It would be better to stick with "I statements"...like this:

Instead of "YOU know I know that a lot more was going on so you say"...try "I feel that you were motivated to tell me because I knew that more was going on than you said..."

Instead of "I don't see how YOU can ever expect me to heal or trust that after another fight, or some reason that I make you angry or depressed you won't go right back over there"...try "I cannot heal or trust without..."

Instead of "Of course YOU remember exactly when and where the first time was, and the answers to all those other questions"...try "I feel like you are being dishonest when you say you cannot remember the details of the first time..."

The difference is that when you make an "I statement," you are talking about YOU. She cannot argue with it. When you make a "you statement," you are passing a judgment on her. She can argue that you are not right. And it is a love buster.

If you focus on how YOU feel and stating YOUR impressions, YOUR needs, YOUR concerns, then she is more likely to take a less defensive stance and be more open to discussion. I know it seems like semantics...but it really makes a difference. And it is so much better for discussing the really tough stuff without withdrawing from the love bank.

HTM

She used to be pretty much a nymp*omaniac too. I can only imagine the wild ride and verbal antics old charlie must have gotten...

Don't go there in your head if you can avoid it. It's not helpful to your recovery. Believe me...BTDT. I cannot even watch a movie with a BJ involved because all I see is my H and that b%$tch OW (that was one of the big details that I asked for and wish I could remove from my head permanently). I think it's an easy way to withdraw love units from your WWs account without her even being there.

HTM

hicktownmommy

oh boy are you right. I wish i had had you proof it first, i'll learn, thanks.

It's funny because I teach 2nd graders and this is a BIG thing that we work on. But I work on it with my H a lot too. It just makes arguing so much calmer and kinder.

I use it with my boys too. Instead of "You're lying" where they can come back with "No I'm not." I say "I don't believe you." What are they going to say? "Yes you do."? We own our emotions and nobody can tell us what we feel. It helps with respect for both sides.

You're doing awesome though. I am glad you were able to enjoy some time with WW and still stand up for the needs that you honestly have.

You can do it.

hicktownmommy

Boy are you right. If I even see an attractive woman in a skirt I think of my WW and Charlie and I get almost an electric shock jolt to my stomach and my heart.

I have to admit this is kind of funny. I even told WW when she asked how i was doing. We both laughed, although now I don't like that she laughed but at the time it seemed ok. My friend was driving us home from work a day or so ago. There was a construction crew on the side of the road putting something in the ground. He said, "Oh look at that, they are laying Pipe." I almost broke into tears.

Now that's sad, but pretty funny too...

IT is just like a mourning process. When my mom died, I was late returning videos to the store. I explained the circumstances to the lady at the counter and she was very understanding. As I walked out, I said to my friend..."I guess I can't use that excuse again." Sometimes the only thing you can do is laugh so that you don't fall to pieces.

I dedicated a song on the radio to OW..."Homewrecker." H didn't think it was funny, but I did.

Hi hicktownmommy,

Thanks for the reply of friday. I actually had the first good weekend since last summer. Slept a lot, worked out, cooked a steak on the grill, played golf, basically took care of me.

Didn't call WW and it must have been almost psychic because I got to the point where I was saying in my head, "I am not in a hurry anymore. I need time to think and process. I will be very nice and deposit love units, but I am not going to call her, let her call me."

Well she did, constantly to chat. We had good conversations and nothing about the A.

Went to church and was asking for some kind of sign of what i am supposed to do. Anything.

Sermon was on how to trust someone. I felt it was targetted directly at me. You know the easy thing to do would be to walk out now. I am tempted to do it. But I think I am being led to take on the hard task of making this work, even if I am the one being blamed right now.

Finished surviving an A. We are definitely jon and sue.

Glad to hear you had such a good weekend, SWW.

How about that NC letter? Has she written it, yet?