</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Smiles, I think you and your questioning attitude and your result peace and confidence is outstanding. If 5x's has any true sense in him, he won't ever let you get away.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks, bp. SOMEONE (not naming names) had better make with the goods sometime soon then, don't ya think??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

bp, check out Peaches new thread, Look but don't touch.... I'm curious about your response.

Smile

<small>[ September 05, 2003, 01:46 PM: Message edited by: SmileADay ]</small>

Zuzus:

Where in the Bible does it say this?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If it's simply mismatched drives, the less "willing" spouse should give as much as he or she can possibly give (the Bible specifies at least 3 times a week).</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'd sure love to be able to use the "Well, honey, the Bible says at least 3 times a week, and we need to obey, so get naked" line on my wife. LOL

hurt

Hey hurtonce...it doesn't work...trust me...I tried. And tried. And tried. And tried.

Oh.you guys are funny.

i agree that the idea of jesus masturbating is irrelevent to my beliefs. but...nevermind.

Dilbert..thanks for the reply. i didn't get you wrong. i understand the visual thing completely.
it's your attitude about your focus that i liked.

have a good week-end!

Sorry if anyone thought I was trying to "shake their faith"...no attempt at all in this thread.

I guess I have developed a Label here too...LOL. Or maybe three or four.

Was curioud about "personal justification" if I can call it that WITHOUT being attacked. I was brought up being told it was WRONG..SIN...etc and so forth. This young boy never got to his teenage years before he started...LOL.

Hurtonce is gonna get hurt again!

LOL, jk.

However, you might read my response on Holdingontoit's thread about middle aged men, long about page 6 or so (before or after, can't remember).

I thought it was the same verses I quoted in one of those posts, but it wasn't.

Read 1 Cor 7: 2-6. This isn't the one I was thinking of, but gosh, I KNOW I read it.

I'm not one to let these things go, because I STRONGLY believe in supporting one's arguments. Don't take my word for it for now, until I find the scripture though.

And when I do find the scripture (I know it's there! It was so plain to me), it is not to be used as a weapon.

What you might do with it though, is because God commands men to love their wives, examine yourself and how you have ministered to her, and see if that makes a change. Keep in mind that many women have been mistreated sexually, and taught that sex is bad. If you have not searched out these possibilities, try that before you try making demands...period. Next, don't make any demands, with proof in your hands or no. It's bad business. Rather, you could use the scripture as a jumping off point for discussing what the problem really is.

I'll be back to this. GRR, I can't believe I can't find it.

Petals

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by bp22:
<strong>Hey hurtonce...it doesn't work...trust me...I tried. And tried. And tried. And tried.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It's almost enough to shake one's faith, eh? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

While I'm firmly in the believer's camp, my W's upbringing was much more religiously conservative than mine -- just a difference in denominations and local church practices.

Anyway, it is very frustrating to me that she gives short shrift to the scriptures related to maintaining a good sexual relationship when she is so well read in the intricasies of so many other doctrinal issues.

I have been exposed to a lot of atheistic and spiritually testing things, like any later work by Arthur Clarke whom I used to really enjoy reading until he got all preachy about his atheism. Of all the assaults on my beliefs, my sexual relationship with my W has tried my faith more than anything.

Bp..
i was brought up to think it was a mortal sin.
and disgusting.....only very disturbed people would do something like that.
thanks, mom.

somehow, i knew that all guys did this and i never had a problem w/ that. but girls...no way.
i was 18 before i figured it out.....after i had sex.. my H finds this hard to believe.

h was brought up thinking it was wrong and shameful also. but says he NEVER talked to anybody about it w/ anyone and would be embarrassed. what did he think the other guys were doing w/ the playboy magazines the swaped?
coming of age is a strange thing.
i knowit comes back to haunt most of us....i hopeit isn't quite as badfor my children as it has been for my husband and i.

Wow Nelly,
You guys were taught that the "M" word was a mortal sin? In my home, we never heard the word "sex" let alone, "M" and nevermind the big "O". <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I don't think my folks were prudes, in fact I KNOW they weren't, but they just never sat us kids down and told us zip about sex ...

It was just never discussed in our home.....

Diamonzzz

<small>[ September 05, 2003, 04:13 PM: Message edited by: Diamonzzz ]</small>

Nelly...one thing for sure...it won't be as bad for your kids. You have gone through things...you have learned...you will pass this along, without thought.

Diamozz...It wasn't talked about at home either for me, or at church directly, but all the fire and brimstone implications without a doubt forbid it in my mind.

I know how happy I am to be the "beacon of the other side" for my kids in the whole religion thing. I never had someone tell me, that was any kind of a figure in my life, while young, that there was even a possibility that religion as it was stuffed into me, could be WRONG. NEVER. And that, I think, caused some troubles with me.

SO, my kids will not have "that" problem in life...they will be well aware that people have different beliefs, different feelings, ideas, etc. Religion IS the "holy grail" to some...the endall. I don't think that is healthy...and often downright destructive...and having experienced that first hand, there's no way we can repeat those problems.

That said, my girls won't be encourage to run around naked and show all the boys their parts either. In fact, they'd never have the chance to do it twice. LOL And I dare say, they won't have the interest to do it once. One thing I know they have learned is about the mighty decision of whom to marry.

While they might not listen and etc, they will NEVER be able to say "No one told me"....LOL.

My eldest seemed to start "humping" her blanket at age 18 months or so...and I'm pleased as punch to say mp22 told her that's something you do in private (not at 18 months)...as opposed to whacking her hands or something.

And as they grow and mature, now 9,8, and 6, it's very interesting to try and teach them about kissing, love, etc. and NOT to discourage them from realizing how wondeerful these things are...but TO ENCOURAGE them to wait until the relationship warrants.

I don't want my daughters "wrapped in a wrapper". No guilt, no fear, no low self esteem, etc.

I think, since we have learned, we will help them avoid the problems...

But there's always leading a horse to water, but you can't make her drink!

<small>[ September 05, 2003, 04:16 PM: Message edited by: bp22 ]</small>

Diomonzz.....

having said nothing at all about sex would have probobly been better.
there was a definite shameful note directed at anything sexual in my home.and the environment i grew up in.

identifying that has helped me quite a bit, actually.

How did one learn about masterbation?

In a strict upbringing, there was no mention of anything. I do not even know if my parents "did it at all" I think that we were miraculously conceived from the way I was brought up- LOL! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Back to those verses...

Of course, then, there is the possibility that I was <gasp!> w-w-w-w-w-wro-o-ong.

As if that would have been the first time. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Petals

Petals, I recall hearing a loooooong time ago that certain Jewish Rabbinic writings (midrash? the Mishnah? I forget the source) prescribed the frequency of intercourse for married persons. Maybe that's what you're thinking of. Of particular interest is that the *husband* was obligated to provide a minimum frequency of intercourse to his *wife*. Put that in your pipe and smoke it! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I read an article in the newspaper a while back about Puritans. It seems that the adjective "puritanical" is a bit misapplied.

The article detailed that the Puritans were strict in many regards, but pointed out that it went both ways. There was a reference to women bringing their husbands before the church as a disciplinary measure for failing to meet their... uh... marital obligations.

<small>[ September 05, 2003, 07:03 PM: Message edited by: Dilbert ]</small>

Iss,

I knew you would correct me, especially if I was mistaken. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Now, I've got to figure out how I came up with the number. I mean, when I read it, a light bulb turned on and it seemed so clear.

But, a minimum frequency of intercourse to his *wife*.

WHAT?!?!?!? So, if she chose her minimum to be "never" that's what his obligation would be? Of course, 1 Cor isn't in the Jewish Bible.

and this...

Put that in your pipe and smoke it!

BTW, I don't smoke.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

And, in a Biblical archaeology study H and I are doing, we looked at the tribes of Israel. Well, I wondered why you chose Issachar, and not Dan *chuckle* or Manasseh.

Petals

No reason. I just dug the sound of it, is all. When I used to play old computer games like Descent where you had to enter a player name, I liked to use Israelite tribal names: Asher, Reuben, Naphtali, but most often Issachar. When I got online in early 1997, I just kept using the same name as my handle in IRC (anyone remember that?), and later on message boards like this one.

So, no particular reason. It just kinda happened that way. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I know this is kinda off topic and as far as the Bible and masturbation goes, I agree with the other posters on the masturbation vs. fantasy theory. I'm not sure when I started feeling like this, but I think masturbation is kinda gross. Especially for women. For guys, I can understand they need the "release" or whatever, but women...sick. No one "told" me that, in fact when I was in boarding school my mom encouraged me to masturbate (so THAT'S when the disgust began! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> ). I don't think people who do it are dirty or nasty or anything, I've done it a few times myself, but I just don't get it. I can't get NEARLY the pleasure out of masturbating as I can in interacting with a partner during sex. 90% of sexual pleasure for me comes from pleasuring my partner and just...being that close with him. For me or anyone to sit there jerking and rubbing and convulsing away all alone just seems and appears kinda...stupid. That's all I could think about when I did it, how stupid I looked. Like it matters, but still. I just don't understand it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How did one learn about masterbation?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Trial and error <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ?

Actually, I just sorta hit upon it, before I really knew what it was I was doing.

Marriedgirl...you have the same POV my best friend back in HS did...she thought it was OK for boys but icky for girls. I've never understood that at all, although I know it is not unusual for women to feel that way. I will agree that I get more out of partner sex than I do solo sex, but really, one does not have to choose...you can have both...obviously solos does not have the emotional component, but it does have a great physical component, and one that is slightly different from partner sex.

And no, I don't think the Bible condemns masturbation at all.

Kathi

Did you know that while women get MORE out of interacting with their partner, or better yet, being CLOSE to their partner, than they do from masturbating.......EIGHTY PERCENT of women who are getting more from that interaction, are not having orgasms. That is because MORE for us, usually doesn't always mean ORGASM.

But for ORGASMIC women and men, because no one knows your body and it's method of stimulation then YOU........orgasms come (if you're not dealing with psychological taboo) more easily with masturbation.

I have a 41 year old friend, married for 7 years with NO orgasm. But she enjoyed sex with her husband. Arousal, yes.....ORGASM...no. And she wanted to feel this thing my sis and I always talked about. Well, after much prodding and convincing, she masturbated herself to orgasm to understand where her 'spots' were, and once confortable with that......would move the right way, lean to the right angle, get into the right position...AND let her husband masturbate her to orgasm. It took about another 6 months, but she finally CAME from intercourse. Her husband was relieved to know it wasn't that he didn't know the motion of the ocean, rather....she had her on inhibitions to break free from and had to learn HER body and its stimuli.

<small>[ September 06, 2003, 09:42 AM: Message edited by: Seven63 ]</small>