Masterbation and The Bible....I should know better

Any comments to those of who you are believers in both? All this talk about masterbation and porn...I'm curious, take away the porn, do folks still have a problem with masterbation alone?

And if not, why not?

Here's a link...
http://www.bible.com/answers/amasturb.html

This link has some great information on the sin of lust and adultery in the heart. However, like I said in my post in the other thread....My husband and I masturbate without the use of porn! I don't have to fantasize about another man, and more often then not, he's staring at MY butt while he's doing it. To assume that masturbation requires thinking about someone else is incorrect. It may apply to individual situations, but it's not a blanket truth. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

A question I have is if the Bible doesn't specifically mention masturbation, how can the writers of that article correllate between an old time definition and scripture? If it was related to masturbation, I'm sure it would say something to the effect of "and sex with oneself." The verses, to my understanding, refer only to adultery and fornication. It is a person's interpretation to make it apply to masturbation.

Next, I agree with what Dr. Harley says on masturbation, that it can take away from relations with one's spouse.

However, there are circumstances when a spouse is not available. If it's simply mismatched drives, the less "willing" spouse should give as much as he or she can possibly give (the Bible specifies at least 3 times a week). If the spouse is sick or the drive of the "driven" spouse is much higher than the other spouse can meet, masturbation is preferable, IMO, to meeting the need some other way, and/or forcing it on the other spouse.

What about teenage boys? What is the physiological consequence of a boy told that he cannot masturbate when his hormonal drive is so high? Would we rather him seek out other children to relieve himself? Would we propose to give him a drug so that his drive is much lower, chemically castrating him, for the sole purpose of sustaining his "innocence?"

In "Bringing Up Boys," Dr. Dobson, and many parents including myself, disapprove of teenage boys babysitting. True, not all boys would try to experiment, but why put them and the children in that position of what may occur, risking all of their "innocence?"

I am, by no means, including the fact that I was never a teenaged boy, an expert. This is stuff I have hashed out though, trying to understand and make allowances.

Since I'm married, and I'm trying to raise a son, I want them both to meet their emotional and physiological needs in appropriate ways without feeling guilty.

I don't think my DH masturbates anymore, though he did at one point (which I think was wrong, because I was willing and it interefered with our relations), but if I was unable to keep him satisfied, I would not hold it against him to do it, to thoughts of ME, photos of ME or to my touchable naked body.

To bring other women into it, whether through porn or physically, would be wrong and I would be offended by that.

Which is the greater sin against one's own body, to deny his needs and allow illness, or infection, or extreme pain to come, or an exclusive (including only him and me, or him, or me...still exclusive) act that will allow his body to stay healthy, and our sex life as well?

Petals

soft spot for me.
if i am available and willing.....which i almost always am.....why not enjoy me?

now, if he is out of town....that's different.
but there is always phone sex.

i agree that that sf deposits those love units better than anything.
atleast for me. i am not sure what my H truly feels here.
he is obviously missing or craving something that i haven't been able to give him.

Hey Nelly...don't get all "upset" and start believeing that he's truely missing out on something...becuase somehere said he probably is becuase I can't understand why he wouldn't be totally fulfilled. That's my intreptration and all, who know's what your hubby feels.

oh, i know b22
i even have some ideas what it is.
he's never been totally honest w/ me or himself about these things. and i can relate to why.

it's just sometimes i feel that he married the wrong girl because i believe in the connected closeness that you mentioned in your other post so deeply. so i get offended.i can't help that...
and he would rather keep things to himself and wish i could get an attitude like smile's.

i just need to learn to live w/ it.....till i can't anymore.

What are the boundaries God gives for masturbation? When is it acceptable? When does it "cross the line"?

The first "boundary" is found in 1 Corinthians 6:19-20. Paul stated, "Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body."

Since there is no Scripture labeling masturbation as a sin, it stands to reason that it is an act which has the POTENTIAL to be honoring to God and is in line with the fact that the Holy Spirit lives in the person. SELF-masturbation is not an act that harms the body (in fact, the release of sexual tension promotes the wellbeing of the body), nor does it involve joining one's body and spirit to someone else, as is the case with intercourse. By releasing sexual tension, masturbation can act as a prevention or deterrent to getting release by way of immoral outlets. A part of honoring God with our bodies is doing everything necessary to keep our bodies under control. As far as sex is concerned, masturbation is an effective way of doing just that.

The second "boundary" is in Philippians 4:8: "Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."

Here is a boundary that deals with the mind. One of the problems with masturbation in the minds of a lot of folks is that it's automatically assumed that fantasies must be used to achieve stimulation necessary for orgasm.

Even though sexual fantasies can be and are used, nothing suggests that they HAVE to be used. The choice is up to the individual as to what they think about when masturbating.

God designed our bodies to respond to sexual stimulation....not Satan. But it is NOT designed to respond ONLY and exclusively to wicked, lustful, sinful, immoral thoughts. God's no dummy. He put in us a HUGE capacity to respond to various sexual stimuli. It is no more required to fantasize about the divorcee' next door while masturbating than it is to fantasize about eating a 13 oz sirloin while eating at McDonalds. Nor is it necessary to view porn while masturbating.

Viewing porn is actually detrimental to the experience, and since pornography is clearly a violation of the command not to lust after another person, it introduces the element of sin into an experience that COULD have been used for the glory of God....keeping one's mind away from sinful things, and not indulging in sexual immorality.

So what can be thought about during masturbation? Colossians 3:17 says, "And whatever you do, whether in word or deed, do it all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him." Colossians 3:1-2 says, "Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is seated at the right hand of God. Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things."

Now, I am not suggesting that it's practical or sensible to "think about GOD" while mastuarbating (although I guess one COULD), but those scriptures say that our 'thought life' is to ALWAYS be pure and of joy, and characterized by focus on God. The problems happen when our 'thought life' strays away from its boundaries and embraces sinful thoughts, like viewing pornography or lusting after another person.

So, is it possible to masturbate without straying into sinful thoughts? Yes. HOW? Because God, in designing the human body, gave it the ability to respond to physical stimuli without the requiredment of sinful thought. And it IS okay to enjoy the pleasurable feelings that come from it.

When you eat your favorite food, you are enjoying the pleasure of the taste and feel of the food. Is it a sin to enjoy eating a brownie? NOPE. It is only a sin when it crowds out God and/or sends you in a direction opposite of God. When that happens........ANYthing — eating, playing golf, watching movies, walking in the park , or masturbating — has been abused, and the individual is guilty of idolatry.

I am not a religious person, so I cannot comment on the topic of this thread, but wanted to make a comment about something Nelly said:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />wish i could get an attitude like smile's.

i just need to learn to live w/ it.....till i can't anymore.
<hr /></blockquote>Hi Nelly, I just want to say that I hope you are not inferring that I am just trying to live with it until I cannot anymore. That is not at all what I am doing and I hope that is not what you end up doing.

Although there may be some similarities, our situations are very different because my BF and I are both having our SF needs met. He does not masturbate because he's not getting enough sex (unless I'm unavailable for more than a few days), he does it because he likes just pounding away with his own hand a couple times a week. It does not take away from my SF.

My outlook on masturbation, and porn for that matter, does not come from settling for what I can get, it comes from feeling secure and satisfied within my relationship. The porn/masturbation is not causing problems for me like it is for you and many others, thus I can sacrifice some of my ideals and feel satisified with that. I do believe marriage involves sacrifice. This is why our situations are so different...the degree of sacrifice for you and me are huge. I'm sacrificing my preference/ideals and needing to set boundaries and help my BF stick to them...but, you are sacrificing your happiness.

Hang in there...I know you are hurting. I hope my posts are not making things more difficult for you.

Smile

no SMILE......
i was talking about myself when i said need to find a way to live w/ it....not you.

my H actually was reading some of your thread yesterday and thougt you had a very mature outlook.
it's me that has the issues w/ it.
i want to be fine w/ it....but i'm just not.
an i am not going to preach to you about what a harlot you are, i promise.
i do not feel that way....i just have my own issues w/ it and his use offends me.
and i just can't get past that....i wonder if i ever will.
i have been trying to figure it out for awhile now.
i am still wondering what it is he is after etc. since at first he told me 1 story and that has since changed a few times.

i have no intention of telling him he can't look at it either......the very last thing i want to do is create another reason for him to lie to me.
so..i just need to learn to live w/ it or leave........or somehow change my views.
so, i am still trying that figure out.
thought things were going great.....actually, if i could just accept it....they are pretty much.
yet....i do feel like i am compromising myself right now....and i don't know how long i can go on feeling like that.

Nelly, what I'm trying to say is that I don't think you should just settle for this. Comparing our situations and I how I am handling mine will only get you so far. It might even make it harder for you.
I think you should be using the MB concepts to work with your H toward a solution that makes both of you happy. I think you are brave and wonderful for also focusing on H&O...the truth can be really hard to swallow and it's easier to just pretend you're okay with it and then believe everything is fine. People keep questioning me (as expected) because I keep bringing up concerns within my premarital relationship. I'm digging for these issues. I'm finding and dealing with them now so I know what I'm up against even if they are not a problem now. Porn is not a problem in my relationship. I saw in MB how it CAN be a problem and then addressed it in our relationship so that I better understand what I'm dealing with. I also discovered that it could become a problem if there were no boundaries.
You are in a different situation. You have a lot of work to do. It will work out <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
Be strong and patient...please don't give up on your happiness.
Smile

Ok-- couldn't resist my 2 cents worth .....

First of all, I am a Christian. "Christian" meaning: follower of Christ... believes the Bible ..... "Christian" not meaning: follows a particular church or group, or persuasion, to the exclusion of all others.

Purely and simply, I believe in God and what the Bible says. I try to follow it but have to admit I fail many times, miserably.
There. That out of the way ....

I didn't even read the article. I already know that I will most likely agree with some of it, and disagree with some of it. This is just one person's opinion. We all have them.

Here's mine:

I believe this topic will ALWAYS bring about differences of opinions on BOTH sides of the equation simply because from reading MY Bible, little to NONE is said about the actual topic.

That's enough for me... there has to be a reason for that. God doesn't make mistakes and if you believe He inspired the Bible, then there has to be a reason for that.

Ok, so I have come to a personal conclusion about why this topic is conspicuous by absent. (oh I should say, there is one reference
that people quote to prove that masturbation is sin, but that one never really made sense to me, so I won't even mention it here but I am sure many Christians who know their Bible's will think of it now). Kindly don't bring that one up to me, I am not into debating it. *thanks* <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I believe one of the reasons it's not there is because it would be redundant. It is already covered in many other ways. I don't believe God wanted to make an arbitrary 'law' about this one because He already covered it when He preached to the people about lust and about sexual sins.

Before you assume that I might be saying it IS a sin, I am not, I am saying, it "could' be, based on a motive.

I can't tell any of you whether or not masturbation is "sin" for you. But I can tell you what the Bible defines as sin. It says "any disobedience against God... so?? Is masturbation disobedience? Or not? I think to find out that answer each person needs to look at their own motives. Examine their own heart and their OWN motives. Don't borrow you morals from anyone. It's waaaay too important to know whether YOU think it's ok, or not. Not whether someone posts a nah or yah about it on the internet.
We were ALL given a conscience and that little small voice that will tell YOU what is right and what is wrong.

Jesus made it pretty clear when He said that if you even LOOK at another woman (besides your wife) you are committing adultery in your heart. Pretty tough words! But He DID say it.

And I believe because God made us all, He has a pretty good idea how we all tick. He knows that lust will destroy a relationship.

So for me, it's pretty clear that ANYTHING, be it masturbation (*disclaimer here* on the big "M" IF it involves porno or any fantasy other than a mate) , or porno, or even an EA with another woman/man, that takes away from the marriage relationship it IS sin. No matter how great it feels.

I think that's the problem right there, people are debating this purely on the basis of how it FEELS. Well, duh, of course it feels great!! So does the thought of trading in your hubby at times for the latest version-- but we know THAT'S wrong.

God doesn't make rules and laws because He's some sort of kill joy and He secretly wants all the people of the earth to miss out on something "good". I believe all God's laws are good. All beneficial. All favorable. I also believe that humankind is about as far from that description as you can get. We are self serving, self defeating, selfish ..and every other "self" word you can think of. (not anyone on MB THO!! LOL)

So.... bottom line for me, each person has to check out their own motives. If you are TRULY just doing it for sexual release and not incorporating anything, or anyone else into your mind to achieve that, I say .. go for it .... but if you can honestly say, that there is ANY remorse or guilt after, than I would re-examine this. Your moral compass is working and you need to listen.

Even if there was a scripture that said "thus saith God, don't masturbate", I still believe as humans we would be looking for a loophole.....

For me, it's all about motive. What is your motive. Period.

Anyway, I preached here and I wasn't ever gonna do that ........ <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Diamonzzz

[ September 04, 2003, 05:43 PM: Message edited by: Diamonzzz ]

For me, masturbation in itself is just another "thing" we can choose to do - or not do. It is an action, just like shooting a gun. If it is done in such a way that it causes no harm to others (like target practice), then it is mearly a self indulgance for the sake of pleasure. If it becomes an issue that causes someone else pain (like when you shoot at someone rather than a target) it is no longer just a self indulgence, but a love buster.

TO me, God wants us to learn to love and be loved. If masturbation interferes with our ability to be loved, then it is causing us harm. Now, when I say "being loved" I am refering to loveing ourselves. If masturbation, or any other action, leaves me feeling ashamed or guilty then it is interfering with my ability to love myself. Anything that takes away from my own self respect is in conflict with God.

So.. whether or not it is right for you depends on two things... whether it is causing you to lose self respect and whether or not it is causing another person to loose respect for you. In either case, the selfish gratification of lust isn't worth the greater loss... at least it wouldn't be for me.

Smile....i didn't mean to come off so gloomy.

it's just a real sore spot. and it would take too long to explain all the reasons why.
we have been working on it and using MB concepts for almost a year......and my own version of them, for about a year before that.

my husband is receptive now and i love him for that.
he was very shut down about emotions for a very long time......he thought they were a weekness and should be kept hidden.
the fact that i refused to think like that....left him baffled and if he was in a certain mood he could easily feel less respect for me beause i wanted to talk about my feelings.(in his mind..weeknesses)

we have made tremendous progress in the last year.
but, you picked up on me for sure.......i am just not very patient and i need to remind mysef of that.
because this particular situation needs lots of patience.
it's much deeper than what you are dealing w/....(nt as simple as he has a highersexdrive and needs to relieve himself w/ o me from time to time)and goes much further back.

thanks for your concearn though. and i know i said this before but i will say it again....i truly admire what you and BF are doing to understand eachother etc. before marriage.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by bp22:
Any comments to those of who you are believers in both? All this talk about masterbation and porn...I'm curious, take away the porn, do folks still have a problem with masterbation alone?<hr /></blockquote>I am Christian and have no problem with masturbation. I've reached this point after a long struggle with it, though.

As a youth, I was basically taught that it was not really a good thing and should be avoided, so I carried some guilt about it. As an adult, I can't imagine how a teenage boy could survive without it. I still think that moderation is important because I think too much emphasis on it would not be a good thing. When my own son hits that age, I hope to guide him to not have guilt about it.

As a youth and a young adult, I always anticipated that masturbation would greatly decline with marriage and a real sexual relationship with a woman. And I think that it has, but it's more because I'm busy with life and no longer suffer the hormonal melee of a teenage boy -- not because my W has fulfilled my sexual needs anywhere close to level that I would abandon masturbation.

From a marriage perspective, I think that all opinions and attitudes about a spouse's masturbatory activities are forfeited by a spouse that consistently fails to meet the need for SF.

From a Christian perspective, I kind of compare it to mowing the lawn on Sunday, which a lot of Christian folks refuse to do out of respect for the Lord's Day even though they will participate in lots of activities that involve noise, physical labor, or someone else working on the Lord's Day (like eating out after church).

Anyway, the lawn on Sunday... I generally don't like to mow on Sunday, but if it rains the other six days of the week and the sun shines on Sunday, I mow the lawn. Given a sunnier disposition toward sex in my M, I would probably have more respect for my W's thoughts about masturbation and would be better equipped to avoid it.

I have no problem masturbating without porn. I have a very difficult time focusing on women other than my W when I masturbate -- she is really a lot of fun... when she's in the mood.

Dilbert....i liked your answer. that's how i feel about it. i also think it should b ntroduced to teen age girls....but, that is another post alltogether.

i liked thatyou aid you don't NEED porn and have a problem focusing on women otherthan wife.
that i how I am....but didn't think many men could do that.
infact......i don't relly focus on an idividual at all. more te situation at hand...no pun intended........

but..how did you feel when you were younger..what did you focus on then?

what do you think is the deal w/ needing to imagine being w/ other women so much is?
i know it's basically an insecurity...a need to feel wanted etc......but, if anyone could elaborate on that for me......i'd apprecite it.

Thanks for all the replies...I do enjoy hearing them. Somewhat disappointed someone hasn't taken the "IT IS SIN" absolute route...but maybe this one is too, uhm, hard to resist. LOL

As a youth, I too thought it was wrong...and I did feel guilt. In fact, at one point I told mp22 about my habit, and I cried and cried and cried and thought I was the biggest loser, bound for hell, and didn't deserve mp22. WOW, that's why I talk about brainwashing...I still remember that day. It was a letter...one of the usual daily letters of 10 pages I wrote as a teen. LOL

And I have to agree as well, for me, during those times alone, I think of my wife. She, the one who hates foreplay and anything besides "getting right to it", and think about all that she is missing...and forcing me to miss out on too. There is no fantasy of others...or at least not more than 5% anyways, and if so, they always include mp22 as well. LOL Does that count?

So another question then....

Did Jesus masterbate? What do you think? If yes, then say why. If NO, then say how then can you "justify" it as acceptable in any way? Surely he felt the sexual tension as a human being, a human teen boy...

Not causing problems, just very curious.

It does amaze me how so many different interpretations can come from the same thing. It makes ME personally wonder how all the folks who were "inspired" by god to write the various books we call the bible interpreted what god had to say. But I suspect that somehow, those various folks were somehow all writing EXACTLT what god said...not how they interpreted it.

Hmmmm...that to me is a very interesting topic itself.

Smiles, I think you and your questioning attitude and your result peace and confidence is outstanding. If 5x's has any true sense in him, he won't ever let you get away.

BP,

Perspective is truly an enigma, isn't it? That was the hardest part for me in math. There is the two-dimensional plane consisting of the x and y axes, then there is the z axis. Somehow, trying to imagine objects from different angles, seeing inside and through them is rather difficult. Astrophysicists amaze me, because I can see how this correlates to finding a fixed point in space. It's something like being out to sea with no land in sight, or waking up in a pitch black room and not remembering which is the head and which the foot of the bed...startling!

So, the fact that 4 of the gospels reveal 4 different perspectives, among countless thousands, and they say very similar things...Wow.

Anyway, did Jesus masturbate? He was God in man, he could've if He wanted to, but could stop the feeling if He wanted to. He got hungry and fasted, and became easily tempted to eat. Why not tempted to envision some lovely Jewish girl while "taking care of physiological business?" However, the question remains, DID He even masturbate? How can we know? He was tempted as we are tempted.

Can boys get through puberty without masturbating? I would guess maybe a small number COULD. DID they? I don't know.

There's my answer...I don't know. The Bible says nothing about it.

Petals

[ September 05, 2003, 12:32 PM: Message edited by: Zuzus_Petals ]

I personally am not going to even think about whether Jesus did or did not, it has no bearing on my faith or belief.

I personally do not think that there is anything wrong with masturbation as long as it does not take away from the shared experiences of sf with ones spouse, ie if a person has a ready, willing, and able spouse yet chooses to masturbate instead of having a mutally satisfying experience with their spouse then I would say it is wrong.

I think that those that preach to our young that it is bad is setting them up for many years of guilt and shameful feelings which leads to tearing down their self esteem. To tell a young person that it is bad and a sin for something that many young people can not help doing does serious lasting damage to them. The guilt they feel for doing it, then their approach to God to repent and swear they won't do it again, only to backslide and do it again and again and again is not conductive to a healthy relationship with God. Don't teach them it is something to be ashamed of, it is a natural part of learning about your body and growing into your sexuality. By taking a stance that it is a sin people are doing a great diservice to the future spouses of these young people. They often end up with messed up views about sexusality, and the act itself.

Teach them instead that whether they do or not is up to them, and no one has the right to judge them for it and it should be a very private thing until such time as one marries and then after marriage it should not be used in place of fulfilling sex with their spouse and if their spouse requests that they don't then they shouldn't but only as long as the spouse is fulfilling the need with them. Because not only do they need a release at times for stress relief, they also need it fairly frequently for health reasons (unless they have been castrated).

I also personally don't believe that God judges us for if we do or not.

If you want to bring lust into it then you have to start debating if fantasies are ok and I am not going there either.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by nelly:
Dilbert....i liked your answer. that's how i feel about it. i also think it should b ntroduced to teen age girls....but, that is another post alltogether.

i liked thatyou aid you don't NEED porn and have a problem focusing on women otherthan wife.
that i how I am....but didn't think many men could do that.
infact......i don't relly focus on an idividual at all. more te situation at hand...no pun intended........

but..how did you feel when you were younger..what did you focus on then?

what do you think is the deal w/ needing to imagine being w/ other women so much is?
i know it's basically an insecurity...a need to feel wanted etc......but, if anyone could elaborate on that for me......i'd apprecite it.<hr /></blockquote>Yeah, I have a daughter too. While I'm not comfortable with encouraging her to masturbate, I certainly hope to influence postively her self esteem and attitudes toward sex. I not afraid to explain it to her, but... I don't think I want to be the one to bring it up with her.

Don't misunderstand, I am as visually stimulated as most men and have no trouble getting aroused by porn. Even that, though, is more of a "wow, would ya look at that" kind of thing than a real lust on my part to have another woman than my W. But I'm sure my W wouldn't see it that way...

When I was younger... just about anything could get me going... girls in my school, girls at the pool, girls on TV, advertising. I think I was a pretty typical raging hormone case -- I just managed to duck most of the real thing until I was married.

I think most of the interest in being with other women is a craving for variety that I don't have. I like to look... but again those looks are on the order of "wow, check her out" rather than "man, I'd like to get me some of that."

I tend to subscribe to the idea that it doesn't matter where I find my appetite as long as I eat at home. When it comes to fantasizing during masturbation, that's kind of like snacking in the appetite/eating analogy -- it should be done at home.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by bp22:
Thanks for all the replies...I do enjoy hearing them. Somewhat disappointed someone hasn't taken the "IT IS SIN" absolute route...but maybe this one is too, uhm, hard to resist. LOL<hr /></blockquote>Sorry to disappoint you... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Did Jesus masterbate? What do you think? If yes, then say why. If NO, then say how then can you "justify" it as acceptable in any way? Surely he felt the sexual tension as a human being, a human teen boy...<hr /></blockquote>Angels in the head of a pin, my friend...

I've always enjoyed contemplating the human experience of Christ. It can be a little crude when you stop to think about it, but He ate, slept, and defecated just like everyone else.

Given that Jesus was by definition sinless, I would have to say that if it was a sin, he did not and if it wasn't he very likely did. Like MBFW said, it just doesn't matter in regard to the Christian theology of salvation.

This leaves you right where you started, trying to decide if it is a sin or not.

Right or wrong, I've adopted the attitude that it's a natural human activity that, like many other natural human activities, can be either innocent or sinful depending on intent or degree. Eating is not a sin, but gluttony is. Recreation is not a sin, but wasting time (sloth) is. Masturbation is not a sin, but lust is.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Smiles, I think you and your questioning attitude and your result peace and confidence is outstanding. If 5x's has any true sense in him, he won't ever let you get away.<hr /></blockquote>Thanks, bp. SOMEONE (not naming names) had better make with the goods sometime soon then, don't ya think??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

bp, check out Peaches new thread, Look but don't touch.... I'm curious about your response.

Smile

[ September 05, 2003, 01:46 PM: Message edited by: SmileADay ]

Zuzus:

Where in the Bible does it say this?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />If it's simply mismatched drives, the less "willing" spouse should give as much as he or she can possibly give (the Bible specifies at least 3 times a week).<hr /></blockquote>I'd sure love to be able to use the "Well, honey, the Bible says at least 3 times a week, and we need to obey, so get naked" line on my wife. LOL

hurt

Hey hurtonce...it doesn't work...trust me...I tried. And tried. And tried. And tried.

Oh.you guys are funny.

i agree that the idea of jesus masturbating is irrelevent to my beliefs. but...nevermind.

Dilbert..thanks for the reply. i didn't get you wrong. i understand the visual thing completely.
it's your attitude about your focus that i liked.

have a good week-end!

Sorry if anyone thought I was trying to "shake their faith"...no attempt at all in this thread.

I guess I have developed a Label here too...LOL. Or maybe three or four.

Was curioud about "personal justification" if I can call it that WITHOUT being attacked. I was brought up being told it was WRONG..SIN...etc and so forth. This young boy never got to his teenage years before he started...LOL.

Hurtonce is gonna get hurt again!

LOL, jk.

However, you might read my response on Holdingontoit's thread about middle aged men, long about page 6 or so (before or after, can't remember).

I thought it was the same verses I quoted in one of those posts, but it wasn't.

Read 1 Cor 7: 2-6. This isn't the one I was thinking of, but gosh, I KNOW I read it.

I'm not one to let these things go, because I STRONGLY believe in supporting one's arguments. Don't take my word for it for now, until I find the scripture though.

And when I do find the scripture (I know it's there! It was so plain to me), it is not to be used as a weapon.

What you might do with it though, is because God commands men to love their wives, examine yourself and how you have ministered to her, and see if that makes a change. Keep in mind that many women have been mistreated sexually, and taught that sex is bad. If you have not searched out these possibilities, try that before you try making demands...period. Next, don't make any demands, with proof in your hands or no. It's bad business. Rather, you could use the scripture as a jumping off point for discussing what the problem really is.

I'll be back to this. GRR, I can't believe I can't find it.

Petals

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by bp22:
Hey hurtonce...it doesn't work...trust me...I tried. And tried. And tried. And tried.<hr /></blockquote>It's almost enough to shake one's faith, eh? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

While I'm firmly in the believer's camp, my W's upbringing was much more religiously conservative than mine -- just a difference in denominations and local church practices.

Anyway, it is very frustrating to me that she gives short shrift to the scriptures related to maintaining a good sexual relationship when she is so well read in the intricasies of so many other doctrinal issues.

I have been exposed to a lot of atheistic and spiritually testing things, like any later work by Arthur Clarke whom I used to really enjoy reading until he got all preachy about his atheism. Of all the assaults on my beliefs, my sexual relationship with my W has tried my faith more than anything.

Bp..
i was brought up to think it was a mortal sin.
and disgusting.....only very disturbed people would do something like that.
thanks, mom.

somehow, i knew that all guys did this and i never had a problem w/ that. but girls...no way.
i was 18 before i figured it out.....after i had sex.. my H finds this hard to believe.

h was brought up thinking it was wrong and shameful also. but says he NEVER talked to anybody about it w/ anyone and would be embarrassed. what did he think the other guys were doing w/ the playboy magazines the swaped?
coming of age is a strange thing.
i knowit comes back to haunt most of us....i hopeit isn't quite as badfor my children as it has been for my husband and i.

Wow Nelly,
You guys were taught that the "M" word was a mortal sin? In my home, we never heard the word "sex" let alone, "M" and nevermind the big "O". <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I don't think my folks were prudes, in fact I KNOW they weren't, but they just never sat us kids down and told us zip about sex ...

It was just never discussed in our home.....

Diamonzzz

[ September 05, 2003, 04:13 PM: Message edited by: Diamonzzz ]

Nelly...one thing for sure...it won't be as bad for your kids. You have gone through things...you have learned...you will pass this along, without thought.

Diamozz...It wasn't talked about at home either for me, or at church directly, but all the fire and brimstone implications without a doubt forbid it in my mind.

I know how happy I am to be the "beacon of the other side" for my kids in the whole religion thing. I never had someone tell me, that was any kind of a figure in my life, while young, that there was even a possibility that religion as it was stuffed into me, could be WRONG. NEVER. And that, I think, caused some troubles with me.

SO, my kids will not have "that" problem in life...they will be well aware that people have different beliefs, different feelings, ideas, etc. Religion IS the "holy grail" to some...the endall. I don't think that is healthy...and often downright destructive...and having experienced that first hand, there's no way we can repeat those problems.

That said, my girls won't be encourage to run around naked and show all the boys their parts either. In fact, they'd never have the chance to do it twice. LOL And I dare say, they won't have the interest to do it once. One thing I know they have learned is about the mighty decision of whom to marry.

While they might not listen and etc, they will NEVER be able to say "No one told me"....LOL.

My eldest seemed to start "humping" her blanket at age 18 months or so...and I'm pleased as punch to say mp22 told her that's something you do in private (not at 18 months)...as opposed to whacking her hands or something.

And as they grow and mature, now 9,8, and 6, it's very interesting to try and teach them about kissing, love, etc. and NOT to discourage them from realizing how wondeerful these things are...but TO ENCOURAGE them to wait until the relationship warrants.

I don't want my daughters "wrapped in a wrapper". No guilt, no fear, no low self esteem, etc.

I think, since we have learned, we will help them avoid the problems...

But there's always leading a horse to water, but you can't make her drink!

[ September 05, 2003, 04:16 PM: Message edited by: bp22 ]

Diomonzz.....

having said nothing at all about sex would have probobly been better.
there was a definite shameful note directed at anything sexual in my home.and the environment i grew up in.

identifying that has helped me quite a bit, actually.

How did one learn about masterbation?

In a strict upbringing, there was no mention of anything. I do not even know if my parents "did it at all" I think that we were miraculously conceived from the way I was brought up- LOL! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Back to those verses...

Of course, then, there is the possibility that I was <gasp!> w-w-w-w-w-wro-o-ong.

As if that would have been the first time. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Petals

Petals, I recall hearing a loooooong time ago that certain Jewish Rabbinic writings (midrash? the Mishnah? I forget the source) prescribed the frequency of intercourse for married persons. Maybe that's what you're thinking of. Of particular interest is that the *husband* was obligated to provide a minimum frequency of intercourse to his *wife*. Put that in your pipe and smoke it! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I read an article in the newspaper a while back about Puritans. It seems that the adjective "puritanical" is a bit misapplied.

The article detailed that the Puritans were strict in many regards, but pointed out that it went both ways. There was a reference to women bringing their husbands before the church as a disciplinary measure for failing to meet their... uh... marital obligations.

[ September 05, 2003, 07:03 PM: Message edited by: Dilbert ]

Iss,

I knew you would correct me, especially if I was mistaken. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Now, I've got to figure out how I came up with the number. I mean, when I read it, a light bulb turned on and it seemed so clear.

But, a minimum frequency of intercourse to his *wife*.

WHAT?!?!?!? So, if she chose her minimum to be "never" that's what his obligation would be? Of course, 1 Cor isn't in the Jewish Bible.

and this...

Put that in your pipe and smoke it!

BTW, I don't smoke.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

And, in a Biblical archaeology study H and I are doing, we looked at the tribes of Israel. Well, I wondered why you chose Issachar, and not Dan *chuckle* or Manasseh.

Petals

No reason. I just dug the sound of it, is all. When I used to play old computer games like Descent where you had to enter a player name, I liked to use Israelite tribal names: Asher, Reuben, Naphtali, but most often Issachar. When I got online in early 1997, I just kept using the same name as my handle in IRC (anyone remember that?), and later on message boards like this one.

So, no particular reason. It just kinda happened that way. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I know this is kinda off topic and as far as the Bible and masturbation goes, I agree with the other posters on the masturbation vs. fantasy theory. I'm not sure when I started feeling like this, but I think masturbation is kinda gross. Especially for women. For guys, I can understand they need the "release" or whatever, but women...sick. No one "told" me that, in fact when I was in boarding school my mom encouraged me to masturbate (so THAT'S when the disgust began! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> ). I don't think people who do it are dirty or nasty or anything, I've done it a few times myself, but I just don't get it. I can't get NEARLY the pleasure out of masturbating as I can in interacting with a partner during sex. 90% of sexual pleasure for me comes from pleasuring my partner and just...being that close with him. For me or anyone to sit there jerking and rubbing and convulsing away all alone just seems and appears kinda...stupid. That's all I could think about when I did it, how stupid I looked. Like it matters, but still. I just don't understand it.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />How did one learn about masterbation?
<hr /></blockquote>Trial and error <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ?

Actually, I just sorta hit upon it, before I really knew what it was I was doing.

Marriedgirl...you have the same POV my best friend back in HS did...she thought it was OK for boys but icky for girls. I've never understood that at all, although I know it is not unusual for women to feel that way. I will agree that I get more out of partner sex than I do solo sex, but really, one does not have to choose...you can have both...obviously solos does not have the emotional component, but it does have a great physical component, and one that is slightly different from partner sex.

And no, I don't think the Bible condemns masturbation at all.

Kathi

Did you know that while women get MORE out of interacting with their partner, or better yet, being CLOSE to their partner, than they do from masturbating.......EIGHTY PERCENT of women who are getting more from that interaction, are not having orgasms. That is because MORE for us, usually doesn't always mean ORGASM.

But for ORGASMIC women and men, because no one knows your body and it's method of stimulation then YOU........orgasms come (if you're not dealing with psychological taboo) more easily with masturbation.

I have a 41 year old friend, married for 7 years with NO orgasm. But she enjoyed sex with her husband. Arousal, yes.....ORGASM...no. And she wanted to feel this thing my sis and I always talked about. Well, after much prodding and convincing, she masturbated herself to orgasm to understand where her 'spots' were, and once confortable with that......would move the right way, lean to the right angle, get into the right position...AND let her husband masturbate her to orgasm. It took about another 6 months, but she finally CAME from intercourse. Her husband was relieved to know it wasn't that he didn't know the motion of the ocean, rather....she had her on inhibitions to break free from and had to learn HER body and its stimuli.

[ September 06, 2003, 09:42 AM: Message edited by: Seven63 ]

Actually, I find they come just as easily with intercourse as with masturbation. Maybe I am just lucky, or maybe it is because I know so well what movements, pressure spots, etc work for me.

The concept of "getting more" without orgasm...while I know the statistics (altho I think I've read 70% vs 80%, but no matter, same idea), I find that one a real head-shaker. Sure, even w/o orgasm you could be "getting more" emotionally, but that's only PART of the equation. I would find that verrrrry frustrating.

[ September 06, 2003, 09:42 AM: Message edited by: kam6318 ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by kam6318:
Actually, I find they come just as easily with intercourse as with masturbation. Maybe I am just lucky, or maybe it is because I know so well what movements, pressure spots, etc work for me.

The concept of "getting more" without orgasm...while I know the statistics (altho I think I've read 70% vs 80%, but no matter, same idea), I find that one a real head-shaker. Sure, even w/o orgasm you could be "getting more" emotionally, but that's only PART of the equation. I would find that verrrrry frustrating.<hr /></blockquote>AGREED. I am very orgasmic, and would find it extremely frustrating to have intercourse to arousal, but no orgasm. But I masturbated when I was EIGHT (didn't have intercourse until 19) and have known for years just where, when, and how my body reacts. So I try to help my friends who DON'T have them get there. There is NOTHING like an orgasm with the one you love. NOTHING.

You've masturbated since you were EIGHT?! Most boys aren't even masterbating at 8!!
That's kinda...frightening.

It is frustrating to have sex without O'ing and since it has been going on for 3 years, I have tried to masturbate more since then. I came once, but I still can't get over how stupid it seems to me. It's much nicer to use a vibrator or whatever while I'm with my H. I like that MUCH better.

How did i find out about masturbating?

let's go back to about 6th grade.
seems like i always knew that boys did it and was it was a sin, but some of them couldn't really help themselves.
different story for girls....i just didn't even know they could.
i understood that guys got this hard-on when they were excited and if you played w/ it they had an orgasm.
girls...i THOUGHT everything was inside and it would just happen durring intercourse....or should. i felt like this all the way thru high school.
isn't it sad that we were never talked to about orgasms or the clitoris?

so, heres where i figured it out.
after an orgasm at 18 durring sex..or maybe it oral sex...
after that, i remember walking around feeling like i was on the "verge" and then i just figured it out from that feeling.

No, it is not "frightening" at all. Many kids of both sexes explore their bodies early.

I walked in on my brother playing with himself when I was about 9 and he 7. After that, I played with myself without ever directly touching myself or putting anything inside of my vagina. I thought touching myself was dirty and wrong, although never because of any religious influences. It wasn't until a boyfriend in high school convinced me to try and masturbate that I ever really touched myself. I don't masturbate often when alone, and hardly ever since I have a great sex partner. I basically use masturbation to better understand my body and learn what feels good so I can tell my guy what I like. I have only had an O a couple times without one of us manipulating my clitoris during intercourse. I would love to figure out how to orgasm more easily without manual stimulation.

Smile

I know kids, esp. little boys play around with themselves at a young age (even infancy) but I wouldn't call that "masturbation". When I think of actual masturbation, I think of fervently stimulating yourself to bring on an orgasm. I didn't think, nor do I really want to think that is possible in 8 years olds.

BP22,

I’ll admit that I was a bit skeptical when I saw the topic. . . and the topic starter! Seems all in good faith. I hope you’re doing well. Besides. . . (and you certainly know what MY orientation is!) I’ve wondered (though never at great length) the very same thing. Well, not so much whether or not it’s wrong, but whether or not Jesus ever did it. I tend to think that it’s not a “sin”. . .but it’s really not after all “mandatory” as part of human behavior – and so, supposing that it’s only a cultivation of needless carnal pleasure that may lead to fascination, I tend to think that Jesus never masturbated. . .but really don’t know.

Petals,

Masturbation was mentioned in the Bible, in Genesis chapter 37. A fellow named Onan did it and God was very displeased and so He killed him.
However, if you read the passage then it doesn’t answer the question about whether God was displeased because Onan masturbated or because he was avoiding a pregnancy. . . it doesn’t say that Onan had a “habit” of this, or anything of the sort. Onan’s masturbation had NOTHING to do with lust, or even carnal pleasure, but to not “give seed” unto his brother, as he’d been told by Judah to do.
. . . I suppose that God’s displeasure had to do with the practical side of that, in that Onan wasn’t willing to father a child by his brother’s wife. You see, it had to do with the fact that Tamar - - the wife in question was widowed, and I believe it had something to do with culture and law in those days, and the fact that Onan wasn’t willing to take her to wife, nor to have a child by her. (And widows in those days didn’t fare well, I guess)
. . . it’s a technicality I suppose then, to say that masturbation was mentioned in the Bible, because this was connected to deeper considerations. You are right (I think) otherwise, because as far as I know, masturbation as an activity in and of itself is never specifically mentioned in the Bible.

On the matter of what Jesus said, (about adultery):
Jesus never said that if you lust after a woman then you have committed adultery. Never.

The often misread, and misquoted passage is found in Matthew 5:28
“But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.”

There is a vastly prevalent tendency for (believers and unbelievers alike) to chop off the last four words of that verse, and those words are as important as the rest.

What we do in our hearts is a matter of imagination, and being done, if it is inappropriate, is sin. If we hate someone, then we might commit murder in our heart, and if we covet something, then we might commit burglary in our heart. So that we remain accountable for those things to, but there is a mighty difference between imagination and consummation.

Lust is a matter of imagination, adultery is its consummation. The two things are not the same thing, if if a man looks at a woman to lust after her he hasn’t committed adultery with her, he has committed lust.
. . . adultery is another matter, and a different sin. Neither is a good thing to be engaged in, but there is definitely a difference.

I don’t believe masturbation is a sin, but that there must be a level of fascination with it that becomes excess and inappropriate, after which it would be. Dunno, really though.

Hope everyone is well

Zuzus,
I am curious as to where the Bible says this? Could you please help?
(the Bible specifies at least 3 times a week).

MG......i thought the same thing. i think of masturbation the same as you...... to orgasm.
can 8 year olds do that?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by ilmf:
Masturbation was mentioned in the Bible, in Genesis chapter 37. A fellow named Onan did it and God was very displeased and so He killed him.<hr /></blockquote>Are you sure that was about masturbation? My interpretation is that it was more about withdrawing just before Onan ejaculated, thus spilling his seed rather than impregnating his brother’s wife. I guess it’s all about interpretation. In any event, it's clear to most scholars that the issue was that Onan didn't follow God's "command," and not that he spilled his seed.

QUOTE]Originally posted by ilmf:
 On the matter of what Jesus said, (about adultery):
Jesus never said that if you lust after a woman then you have committed adultery. Never.

The often misread, and misquoted passage is found in Matthew 5:28
“But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.”

What we do in our hearts is a matter of imagination, and being done, if it is inappropriate, is sin. If we hate someone, then we might commit murder in our heart, and if we covet something, then we might commit burglary in our heart. So that we remain accountable for those things to, but there is a mighty difference between imagination and consummation.[/QUOTE]

That’s a very interesting way to think about it. It makes sense to me. While I do believe people are better off not hating others and thoughts of “I could just KILL him” aren’t good for a person, there’s a huge difference between thinking of killing a person and actually killing that person. It’s important to exercise control in all of our thoughts I suppose.

Similarly, seeing money that doesn't belong to thinking, and us "Hmmmmm, I might just take that" isn't the same thing as actually taking it. That kind of thought is more akin to temptation and not the actual deed. I would think that the Ten Commandments were meant to persuade us from doing the deed. While flirting with temptation in any scenario can be foolhardy, I personally see a huge gap between lust and adultery. If lust IS adultery, and thoughts of murder are the same as murder...well, I'm a murderer because I have had those thoughts about people on occasion. (Not serious thoughts, mind you. Just as when I have fantasies about a female friend I don't actually have serious thoughts about actually DOING those things with the friend.)

Anyway, it's all interesting.

[ September 06, 2003, 04:27 PM: Message edited by: DevotedHusb ]

ILMF,

You are absolutely right. I did remember him, but briefly and didn't relate it...somehow...to this discussion. And I certainly didn't remember his name. LOL. But, this man was a kinsman redeemer and his first born would be considered the child of his wife's late h. He didn't want to share his offspring with another.

He had vowed to marry this woman (I believe he might have been able to decline), but still refused to allow his offspring to honor another.

(Hmm...rereading, you already covered this.)

Wasn't he having intercourse with her, and when he was about to ejaculate, turned and did it on the ground? Was he married to her or not? If he was "with" her, then he was wrong if he had not or was not going to marry her.

What happens in the mind is NOT the same thing as what we do, however what we think can lead to actions.

BTW, you cut off those last few words, I didn't...at least, in my mind. It is adultery, of sorts, TO look at woman to lust after her. What's interesting there is that the man is intentionally look at her for the purpose of lusting. It wasn't accidental. Perhaps the first look was, but perhaps it was drawn out.

The Bible says that if you hate someone, you're a murderer. Did you physically kill that person? No, but perhaps your hating has led to a low self-esteem. It is murder of a sort.

Adgirl48,

I have tried to look it up and I can't find it. Perhaps it was a conclusion I came to after reading a set of verses, I don't know.

But, consider me wrong until I'm proven right. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Incidentally, the Bible does say that a husband's body belongs to his wife and not himself and vice versa. What's that tell you? (That is in those verses I mentioned before. 1 Cor 7)

Petals

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Zuzus_Petals:
The Bible says that if you hate someone, you're a murderer. <hr /></blockquote>Okay, now you got ME curious about the passage you are referring. Can you tell me the chapter/verse please? I'm curious.

Thanks!

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by DevotedHusb:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Zuzus_Petals:
The Bible says that if you hate someone, you're a murderer. <hr /></blockquote>Okay, now you got ME curious about the passage you are referring. Can you tell me the chapter/verse please? I'm curious.

Thanks!<hr /></blockquote>Nevermind. I looked it up.

"Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer:" (I John 3:15)

[ September 06, 2003, 05:00 PM: Message edited by: DevotedHusb ]

[/quote]You've masturbated since you were EIGHT?! Most boys aren't even masterbating at 8!!
That's kinda...frightening. [quote]

What's frightening is the alarming rate of women who don't know their bodies. I didn't get my rocks off daily like a 14 year old boy, but I DID discover the big O rubbing against the bed. And I will be honest enough to say it happened more than once.

What's "frightening" is that someone would abhor masturbation but partake in premarital sex.

What's "frightening" is the number of women so intimidated by their own bodies and the taboo that has been place upon sex, that even marriages between ministers of the gosple who preach the sin of divorce, are breaking up daily due to infidelity related to a simple lack of sex. THAT is what's frightening.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I know kids, esp. little boys play around with themselves at a young age (even infancy) but I wouldn't call that "masturbation". When I think of actual masturbation, I think of fervently stimulating yourself to bring on an orgasm. I didn't think, nor do I really want to think that is possible in 8 years olds.<hr /></blockquote>But MG....that IS masturbation. Sex isn't only sex when done fervently. It's sex regardless of HOW it's done. Likewise, masturbation is just that....stimulating one's genitals to arousal and/or orgasm. This is how the 'stigma' gets attached to it. It's not necessary to think it's possible. It IS possible and happens everyday! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Masturbation was mentioned in the Bible, in Genesis chapter 37. A fellow named Onan did it and God was very displeased and so He killed him.
However, if you read the passage then it doesn’t answer the question about whether God was displeased because Onan masturbated or because he was avoiding a pregnancy. . . it doesn’t say that Onan had a “habit” of this, or anything of the sort. Onan’s masturbation had NOTHING to do with lust, or even carnal pleasure, but to not “give seed” unto his brother, as he’d been told by Judah to do.<hr /></blockquote>Onan....did NOT masturbate. Onan was commanded by God to impregnate his brother's wife Tamar, in order for her to bear his dead brother's sons. Onan did not WANT to give her children because they would biologically be HIS, but would be considered his brother's. SO....Onan had sex with Tamar....he did NOT masturbate. He had SEX with Tamar, but at ejaculation...he withdrew, spilling the semen onto the ground. He was then killed by God for NOT obeying God's command to carry on his brother's seed, not for coitus interruptus....and definitely not an act he didnt do.....masturbation.

[ September 06, 2003, 05:25 PM: Message edited by: Seven63 ]

DevotedHusb,

No. . . I am NOT sure that it was about masturbation (where God killed Onan). In fact, I am completely certain of the same thing that you suggested, that it had to do with him not following instructions. (I would have thought the rest of my paragraph on that would have made that pretty clear).
. . . so really, to be honest I suppose my reference to Onan was almost actually not relevant at all to the gist of this thread.
But. . . now that you’ve said what you have, you’ve really got me thinking. I always just sort of supposed that Onan must have whooped it off just outside the tent door, so that when he went to the lady that he could pretend not being able to get it up. Considering what you’ve written, I suppose that he could have done an “early withdrawal”. (I’m posting the verse, for the sake of convenience)
From Genesis 38
“And Onan knew that the seed should not be his; and it came to pass, when he went in unto his brother's wife, that he spilled it on the ground, lest that he should give seed to his brother”.

Even though it was me that brought it up, it was only an idle tangent because it had nothing so much to do with lust or pleasure in this case, but instead more practical considerations. (Though I appreciate your thoughts on this, Devoted)

Petals,
I’ll derail the topic if I am not careful, and would rather not. You’re right, and it’s true that the Bible says that if you hate someone then you are a murderer. (Seen in 1 John 3:15). . . but be careful there. All scripture falls best to a literal and unadorned interpretation first. . . “what it says”.
To be a murderer is not the same as to consummate murder.
If a man hates his brother he has not committed murder.
The verse:
” Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.”
To lust may make one an adulterer, but even so, adultery has not been committed.
. . . only lust has been committed.
Adultery has not.

How purposeful is my contention on that? It’s pointless, really – because whether its “to do” or “to be” comes to naught after all, because of the second half of the verse. (that no murderer has eternal life abiding inside them).

It seems like a parallel might be drawn between that, and the lust issue. . . but I never assume things (when it comes to stuffs from the Bible).

And Petals. . . you ARE RIGHT about whose body it is!!! Hey, get up with my wife when you get the chance. . . maybe she just needs to hear it from another gal.

I shouldn’t have ever mentioned the thing about Onan. It was never to do with masturbation certainly in the context of this discussion anyway. (But I can’t for the life of me decide now whether he did an early withdrawal, or just whooped it, now thanks to you Devoted. . . )

Hope you’re all well

Seven63,

I think. . . I’ve a new perspective on what may have happened between Onan and Tamar that day – thanks to Devoted, and to you.

But be careful with sureties.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Seven63:
Onan....did NOT masturbate. Onan was commanded by God to impregnate his brother's wife Tamar, in order for her to bear his dead brother's sons.<hr /></blockquote>Onan was commanded by Judah.

Genesis 38:8
” And Judah said unto Onan, Go in unto thy brother's wife, and marry her, and raise up seed to thy brother.”

Not God.

But I never should have brought Onan’s case up to begin with, because even in my own post about it, I wrote some bit about the fact that it was his failed commitment that displeased God. . . something to do with practical things, and not lust or bad habits.

[/quote]You've masturbated since you were EIGHT?! Most boys aren't even masterbating at 8!!
That's kinda...frightening. [quote]

What's frightening is the alarming rate of women who don't know their bodies. I didn't get my rocks off daily like a 14 year old boy, but I DID discover the big O rubbing against the bed. And I will be honest enough to say it happened more than once.

What's frightening to me about this is that some people can take this information and say, "All children are sexual creatures."

Well, we are all sexual creatures, but that doesn't mean that we are ready for sex.

I was molested at 5 yo. It (oral) felt okay (I was not terrified as some are), but it didn't feel anything like what sex with my H does to me now. I didn't "get hard" and there was no chance of orgasm.

It felt more like a genital massage.

Genital massage, which is what I think many younger kids do, is different from masturbation. Masturbation has its own intended purpose.

This isn't to say that Seven didn't masturbate or get the sexual sensations. What I am saying is that not a whole lot of children experiment in this way at such a young age.

Some girls start their periods around that age. That doesn't mean they're ready to have children (emotionally, etc).

Hence, I don't think that if a girl (or boy) starts masturbating at that age, that means they're ready for another partner, or to be taken advantage of by someone else.

(Seven, I know you're not advocating that, but I'm saying some might misconstrue your comments to mean that those things are okay.)

Petals

[ September 06, 2003, 06:57 PM: Message edited by: Zuzus_Petals ]

ILMF,

I'll bet that many women would discount me as a good counselor of these scriptures because of my age and education.

A young mother/college dropout doesn't gain a whole lot of respect in the field of knowledge when people want to be stubborn, especially.

But, if you think Mrs. ILMF would listen, I would certainly share what I *think I* know. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Petals

ZUZUS!!! Gosh! I HOPE people would not misconstrue my comment to mean ANYone is ready for sex. That's like saying because a boy learns to hold his penis during urination, he's ready to use it for penetration. NOT so. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I'm saying masturbation is natural for children. So is scratching one's [censored] when it itches. Natural doesn't mean everyone partakes or SHOULD partake! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

IMLF!! I'm sorry and stand corrected. I got a little excited as I hear the "sin of Onan" argument for masturbation all the time and was keying faster then reading! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Judah, Er's (deseased) and Onan's father, Tamar's father-in-law told him to do so. It was the customary for the land at that time, and sanctioned BY God, for the b-i-l to sleep with the widow's wife, at that time, to bring forth the deceased man's seed. thanks for catching that. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

[ September 07, 2003, 02:31 PM: Message edited by: Seven63 ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by ilmf:
[b]Even though it was me that brought it up, it was only an idle tangent because it had nothing so much to do with lust or pleasure in this case, but instead more practical considerations. (Though I appreciate your thoughts on this, Devoted)<hr /></blockquote>And I shouldn't have brought up the correction. I guess I sometimes find myself getting into Bible debates, which is odd because for me the Bible has little to do with my relationship with God. I'm one of those that seek spirituality from within rather than be lead by other humans in spiritual matters (for the most part anyway). I do find the Bible interesting and like to read/study it. To me it is essentially true in spirit if not in an historical sense. I hope that doesn't offend anyone as that isn't my intent.

Anyway, just wanted you to know I wasn't trying to pick a fight. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I guess I just like Bible debates, God help me!

Take care.

I agree with you Petals on the whole children/masturbation thing. The whole "masturbation is natural for children" doesn't really fly with me. It seems like something a child molester would say "Oh, well you do this on your own anyway, so I might as well do it to you...I know you think it feels good..." I'm not at all saying Seven is a child molester in any way, shape or form, but seven, I think your experience of bringing yourself to orgasm at the age of 8 is really quite unusual. I was molested as well and to make it sound like children of that age are sexual, pleasurable creatures almost makes me sick to my stomach. Most 8 year olds are NOT thinking about sexual sensations, nor do they sit in their rooms bringing themselves to orgasm. Yes, they may brush against their genitals, yes, they may explore the region occassionally but I truly don't believe it is for the purpose of sexual satisfaction.

Hey, Petals, Seven63, Devoted. . . and Diamonzzz (Diamonzzz lastly because she mentioned that thing about lust & adultery, though hasn’t been back since I last posted)

To begin with, I really do have to consider that about 99% of what I’ve said really never was really quite relevant to the topic, moreover in the context that’s come out of it. . .

Also, Seven63. . . I’m the [censored] who started flashing “corrections” at people first!
Also, DevotedHusb. . . same to you too. . .to you both, in that I was not at all offended, and in fact appreciated that you took time to honor my thoughts with your replies.

I’ve shared in other topics with all of you, and appreciate your thoughts as well as the spirit of your posts. For what it’s worth, Seven. . . having heard the same argument (the sin of Onan) preached inappropriately before, I am aware of the “cue” that such a reference has.

Nothing that any of you has posted seemed less than fine in spirit to me, and oh-yes, Devoted. . . you were perfectly fine by me, all along. All of you, in fact.

Thanks though, for being so considerate – thank you very much, and for entertaining my bits of this discussion.

Geez. . . funny how when people are really nice, it makes you wonder if you’ve been nice enough yourself, eh? (See me wondering now?)

Hope everyone is well

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Genital massage, which is what I think many younger kids do, is different from masturbation. Masturbation has its own intended purpose. <hr /></blockquote>That's a softened definition of masturbation, yes, that might serve to lesson the stigma. However, masturbation is.....

Excitation of one's own or another's genital organs, usually to orgasm, by manual contact or means other than sexual intercourse.

manual stimulation of the genital organs (of yourself or another) for sexual pleasure

Sexual stimulation or gratification of the self.

The act of touching oneself to produce a favorable feeling in the groin area.

Once a child is aware of the 'feeling' associated with the action, many will do it at some point to recreate that 'feeling'. They oftimes discover what "feels good" and "do it" again. It's biology and nature and nothing to be fearful of. They have to, like with most things, learn to control things that might not be 'appropriate' at that time. If it feels better to call it genital massage.....cool. It's not to say children are little perverts in waiting. It's the exact opposite. They It's NOT with SEX in mind, or anything else reserved for married adults. Heck....I din't know what sex was until I was around 12 years old....LITERALLY. I thought you could be pregnant from kissing. So, you're right...it's not for "sexual gratification.

[ September 06, 2003, 10:06 PM: Message edited by: Seven63 ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I'm not at all saying Seven is a child molester in any way, shape or form, but seven, I think your experience of bringing yourself to orgasm at the age of 8 is really quite unusual.<hr /></blockquote>I would hope not, on the former part of the comment. As you'd get into a spat the likes of which you've never endured on the net! And you'd be surprised with the latter part of your comment. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Masturbation in Young Children

Frequency Among Age Groups

Again...I'm not talking about children sitting in a corner, rocking in a chair jamming their fingers into themselves. I'm talking about 18 mos olds, 2 year olds....even EIGHT year olds and other children enjoying the sensation that comes from genital "massage" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> and repeating it in order to repeat the sensation. Doing it long enough can result in orgasm. Now, at that time, I didn't KNOW it was an orgasm and had no idea of what sex was (again, I never had sex until I was a freshman in college), but "this feeling" I got happened again when I figured out how to have sex and BANG! "I've done THIS before"

Gotta go to bed now! Chat with you guys tomorrow.

PS:..." that sounds like something a fridgid prude would say.....NOT that I'm calling MG a fridgid prude in any way, shape, or form... ". Just thought I'd put that comment a few posts up into perspective! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

[ September 06, 2003, 10:22 PM: Message edited by: Seven63 ]

Just because I don't like to think of infants and children masturbating themselves into oblivion does NOT make me a frigid prude. The same as how I don't enjoy hearing a woman my mother's age go into explicit detail about her bodily functions during sex and how much she wants to "pulse around her husband's member" or whatever. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> Thanks, but no thanks.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by ilmf:
Geez. . . funny how when people are really nice, it makes you wonder if you’ve been nice enough yourself, eh? (See me wondering now?)
<hr /></blockquote>lol...I know, I felt the same way. I was a tiny bit worried that maybe I had offended YOU. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> So we'll stop with the apologies and move on. You're nice, I'm nice...we're all nice people.

MG:

I'm a bit worried for you---you're a mom now. You have a daughter. She probably hasn't exhibited signs of masturbation yet, but she will!

I began masturbating at 4 or 5 years old---but it wasn't sexual, it was F U N. All children involve themselves in some kind of genital play---it's NATURAL! In fact, Kinsey did research on this subject and found that babies as young as 9 (I think) months old were having as many as 38 orgasms in an HOUR!

You have to look at this as any other responsible adult would---just because sex and children is a taboo subject, doesn't mean that babies aren't experimenting. What will you do if your daughter and the neighbourhood boys play "doctor"? Will you shout "RAPE" on behalf of your daughter?

If you don't find a way to make yourself more comfortable with the subject, your daughter will sense your distaste and equate it with something BAD and DIRTY...and you know what? Her sex life will suffer as an adult.

I think that you have a bit of a warped view of masturbation in general---you've admitted that you find it 'icky'. Not only that, but you've mentioned in the past that you don't have orgasms with your husband. Have you considered that you're just not comfortable with your OWN body? Think about it--you think that if you masturabate, it's 'icky', but if your husband has sex with you, that's cool.

I have news for you--if you can't orgasm yourself, don't expect anyone else to do it for you.

Getting back to the original subject matter--once again, I'll give my 2 cents---religion was invented to control the masses. There is no concrete proof that masturbation is forbidden. It's not one of the 10 commandments, so even if I'm WRONG, I know it's not anything TOO bad.

I meant to empasize in my first post that I don't condemn anyone that masturbates or think it's a sin or anything, *I* just don't understand it in *my* mind. Like I said, I have "experimented" before and will gladly masturbate for my H and incorporate toys in our sex life (and whatever the hell else) whenever we feel like it. I'm up for just about anything. It's just that when I'm alone, I'm not rushing off in some corner to get off at the slightest tingle I feel down there or whatever. And when I have masturbated, all I can think about is how stupid I look because when I have seen women in porn or movies getting themselves all worked up I think it looks rather idiotic and I assume that's how I look. I know that shouldn't matter but it hinders me because of how foolish it has appeared to me. But I do not think it is "sinful" or anything...believe me, I have engaged in many sinful things without a second thought (naughty, naughty me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ) so I'm not up here preaching to anyone else about the sinful nature of their behavior or anything. And of course I know that it is no one else's responsibility to bring me to O...I don't depend on my H to bring me there, but I am still a little timid on experimenting around and being selfish during sex. I like being the giver...or always did anyway.

I guess I am a little sensitive when children are brought up or focused on in this way because of my past. Seven seems to be a little too graphic and obscene for my taste on her descriptions of sex with her H...I just think some things should be left unsaid, esp. in a place like this (never thought you'd hear me saying that, did you? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ) and when she brings children into her sexual discussions, it just is a little toooo much.

As far as my dd "experimenting", I know it will happen and it may be a little hard to deal with, like I said because of what I've been through. So I'll let H handle those situations. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Just for the records: there is no such word as "masterbation". The right spelling is "masturbation".

Just a little humor to lighten things up a bit:

Procrastination is like masturbation — at first it might feel great, but in the end you're just f***ing yourself.

A concerned patient asked the doctor if masturbation is harmful. "Not usually," answered the doctor. "Not unless you do it too often."
"How about three times a day?" the patient asked. "That seems a little excessive. Why don't you get a girlfriend?" "Oh,... I already
have a girlfriend," the patient replied. "I mean a girl you can live with and have sex with?" asked the doctor. The patient said, "I've
got one just like that!" So the doctor asked, "Then why do you masturbate three times a day?" "Because,... she won't have sex during
mealtimes!"

AND SINCE SOME OF US ARE HAVING TROUBLE SPELLING THE WORD, PERHAPS WE MIGHT USE THESE OTHER OPTIONS...

Fondle your flagpole
Free Willy
Frost the pastries
Frosting your maple bar
Frying up the corndog
Gallop the old lizard
Gardening with the golden trowel
Genital stimulation via phallengetic motion
Get a date with Slick Mittens
Get the German soldier marching
Get to know yourself
Get your pole varnished
Give it a tug
Give your low five
Giving the half-blind dog a run for his money
Go a couple of rounds with ol' Josh
Go blind
Go on a date with Fisty Palmer
Go on a date with Handrea and Palmela
Go the blow
Going Hans Solo on Darth Vader's head
Goose the gherkin
Grease the pipe
Greasing the three-legged cow
Hand job
Hard labor
Have one off the wrist
Helping put Mr. Kleenex's kids through college
Hitchhike to heaven
Hitchhike underneath the big top
Hitting too close to home
Hoisting your own petard
Hold the bishop
Hold the sausage hostage
Holding your own
Hone the cone
Honk your horn
Hosing down the driveway
Hotfooting it to the nearest exit
Hug the hog
Hump your hose
Investing in pork bellies
Invoking the Oscar Meyer love spell
Jack hammer
Jazz yourself
Jerk Jamby
Jerk the gherkin
Left to your own devices
Letting the cat out of the bag
Liquidating the inventory

AND FOR THE LADIES...

5 Digit Disco
Buzzing the honey hole
Backslappin' Betty
Bailing out the Gravy
Boat Beaver bashin'
Bouncing the bearded clam
Buffing the box
Buffing the jewel
Buttering up the whisker biscuit
Clam twiddlin' jamboree
Critter crammin'
Damming the beaver
Dialing "O" on the little pink telephone
Diddling miss daisy
Diggin' for clams
Digitis Erectus
Fingering the fountain
Flicking the minnow
Friday night lip service
Frosting the muffin of love
Giving yourself the finger
Going for the gooey duct
Impeaching Bush
Juicing the clam
Let your fingers do the walking
Lip smacking
Menage a'moi
Petting the kitty
Piddly Diddler
Playing the squeezebox
Pokin' the pie
Polishing the little pink pearl
Pumping the kooter
Punchin' the chipmunk
Reading in Braille
Riding the clitoris-sauras
Romancing thy own
Roughing up the suspect
Self-guided tuna boat tour
Smacking Jerry Garcia on the nose
Spanking Lucy
Stroking the newt
Ticklin' the taco
Tissue tickling
Twirling the pearl
Unbuttoning the fur coat
Warming the wrist rocket

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

[ September 07, 2003, 08:15 AM: Message edited by: DevotedHusb ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Just because I don't like to think of infants and children masturbating themselves into oblivion does NOT make me a frigid prude. The same as how I don't enjoy hearing a woman my mother's age go into explicit detail about her bodily functions during sex and how much she wants to "pulse around her husband's member" or whatever. Thanks, but no thanks.<hr /></blockquote>My post evoked the very response I was going for. It gave you the opportunity to "feel/see" how your comment about me (although NOT me) speaking like a molestor. Get it? You assumed I was calling you a frigid prude. But I was no more calling you that than you calling me a molestor. But by the sound of your response to my comment stated the VERY way yours was to me....you MUST HAVE BEEN calling me a molestor. Isn't reciprocation a female dog?? You have a great day hon. And I hope your troubled marriage is one day half as good as this woman your mother's age! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Also, there are MANY who find sexual detail extremely beneficial to their marriage that's failing due to SF not being met, and SAY so. If not you...that's fine. Just ignore the post. However, you think talking about a nasty RASH on your husband genitals is something folks RELISH hearing?!?!?!?! Come on MG..... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

[ September 07, 2003, 01:21 PM: Message edited by: Seven63 ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />My post evoked the very response I was going for. <hr /></blockquote>I knew you were provoking me with that comment. In my post, I was mentioning what your comments *reminded* me of. It had nothing to do with you, and I clearly stated that, in what was intentioned as a very blunt way. When I said that I was not calling you a molester, I MEANT IT. Your comments (mostly the way they were put) like usual were just a little disturbing to me and I was making that known.

As far as my H's rash, I was concerned and seeking help about a somewhat medical issue that has since resolved itself. But I would like to know, how do you honestly feel that these comments would "help" a sexually starved man who is not getting enough from his own wife??

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I often LUST after my husband.....not because I love him, but because I'm at work and I have images of his nice square backside and memories of what the last orgasm felt like....pulsing around his member...
Trust me, there ARE times when hubby and I have some down and dirty, sweaty, growling, sticky, wet gutteral pump pump pump pump it up SEX! <hr /></blockquote>Do you think throwing in comments about how great your relationship is with God helps lessen the effect? Oh, but we can't forget about how your H also loves to whack off to your naked a** and nearly rock you off the bed with his attempts. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> Actually, I'm SURE your comments would help some horny, sexually starved guy- hopefully not in the way you intended though <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> If your descriptions were unfortunately burned into my mind *shudder*, I can't imagine what it did to the MEN who read them- most of whom AREN'T getting enough sex at home! We really don't need to know every, gory detail of what goes on in your bed, or in the back of your car, or wherever you do it. I get enough action in my own bed, I don't need to so clearly visualize someone else's...If you only knew how much I can truly handle, you might take me a little more seriously. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> All I'm asking is for you to tone it down just a little, and believe me, I avoid when I can.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />And I hope your troubled marriage is one day half as good as this woman your mother's age! <hr /></blockquote>You're funny. I'll keep my mouth closed on this one though <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> You have a great day too <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

[ September 07, 2003, 11:33 AM: Message edited by: marriedgirl ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I knew you were provoking me with that comment. In my post, I was mentioning what your comments *reminded* me of. It had nothing to do with you, and I clearly stated that, in what was intentioned as a very blunt way. When I said that I was not calling you a molester, I MEANT IT. Your comments (mostly the way they were put) like usual were just a little disturbing to me and I was making that known. <hr /></blockquote>I was also mentioning what your comments *remind* me of...............frigid prudes. However, I clearly stated that I was not calling YOU a frigid prude....and I MEANT it. As far as I know, you and yours have plenty sex. YOU took the comment to heart. WHY???? The same reason I did with your comment about molestors. As they were written in the same vein. Mine ONLY to get you to understand how YOURs came across. Your comments, like usual , were a little disturbing, as many people are raising daughters who internalize the same taboos throughout generations about sex, and end up in a similarly troubled marriages, lacking sexual fulfillment and insecurities......... and I was making that known.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> As far as my H's rash, I was concerned and seeking help about a somewhat medical issue that has since resolved itself. <hr /></blockquote>That's what DOCTORS are for. However, you chose to come to the experts here to share those details that are "unfortunately burned into my mind *shudder*.............and that's cool. That's the beauty of the board. You never know how something that might cause one to toss their cookies (like thoughts of a red-scaly penile shaft), will be a blessing to another. I'm sure images of your husband's red scaly genitals were necessary for you to..............whatever it was you were doing.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />But I would like to know, how do you honestly feel that these comments would "help" a sexually starved man who is not getting enough from his own wife?? <hr /></blockquote>I'm no sex therapist by ANY means, but sharing has helped plenty a *inhibited* woman better understand the necessity for meeting their husbands at least half way when it comes to SF. And that's LONG before I found MB. Nevertheless, the comments do exactly what they are intended to do. And that is to help the wife who might not understand the root of her husband's SF and perhaps just WHAT he's desiring vs. what she perceives he's desiring?? Can one's own lack of satisfaction with their marriage so bad they would want to shield others from hearing that there IS hope out there? Perhaps. But like with ALL who share experiences, good OR bad.....we learn and grow from them. Graphic, though they may be........the words are, and have been ministry to some. And as long as ONE can be blessed by what I say......I will keep sharing it. There are many more on the OTHER side of the fence then you are.....so as you so eloquently said in your response....."whatever". <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Do you think throwing in comments about how great your relationship is with God helps lessen the effect?<hr /></blockquote>HUH?!?!? Have I EVER come across as trying to lessen effect??? I think not. But it IS important for people to know that just because they have a relationship with God, it isn't a reason to feel you CAN'T fully and wholly experience SF.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Oh, but we can't forget about how your H also loves to whack off to your naked a** and nearly rock you off the bed with his attempts. Actually, I'm SURE your comments would help some horny, sexually starved guy- hopefully not in the way you intended though If your descriptions were unfortunately burned into my mind *shudder*, I can't imagine what it did to the MEN who read them- most of whom AREN'T getting enough sex at home! <hr /></blockquote>The overwhelming majority of those who reply (and, yes there are many) have been from women on this board who are trying and willing to be more open with themselves....with their husbands. So the answer to your question, without hesitation is a resounding YES! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> And perhaps, some horny, sexually starved husband MIGHT just become more open to discussing and communicating his desires of his wife WITH his wife, and the two will be on their way to a more fulfilling relationship. The comments are in direct response to the direction of the threads they are posted in. When you quote my comment about LUSTING after my husband...at LEAST be sensible enough to put it in context. It's not like it was in response to "I'm Falling Out of Love with My Husband". It was in a "sex vs. making love" post.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> We really don't need to know every, gory detail of what goes on in your bed, or in the back of your car, or wherever you do it. I get enough action in my own bed, I don't need to so clearly visualize someone else's...If you only knew how much I can truly handle, you might take me a little more seriously. All I'm asking is for you to tone it down just a little, and believe me, I avoid when I can.

"Yeah I love my man too but when he zones out on the couch all day farting and playing video games while eating chips the last thing on my mind at that point is licking the chip crumbs off his lap! Maybe later that night but not then..."

<hr /></blockquote>EWW...the image etched in my head.....especially after the *details* of his hygiene! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> However, TRUST me MG....you've not heard a 10% of the details............but if you ever need help or someone to talk to..........or lessons in spicing it up....... seven63@triad.rr.com. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Which is probably where this should go from here anyway....

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I'll keep my mouth closed on this one though <hr /></blockquote>Good idea! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Now...that's it for the Seven and MG show. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Back to our previously scheduled programming........"masturbation and the Bible....I should know better"........

[ September 07, 2003, 02:05 PM: Message edited by: Seven63 ]

Yack... now it's burned into my mind, too.

quote:
"(like thoughts of a red-scaly penile shaft)"

no... I'm not offended (not in the least)

but I AM thinking that this thread has just gotten really ripe for a Slapnuts input!

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by ilmf:
Yack... now it's burned into my mind, too.

quote:
"(like thoughts of a red-scaly penile shaft)"

no... I'm not offended (not in the least)

but I AM thinking that this thread has just gotten really ripe for a Slapnuts input!

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <hr /></blockquote>HA HA HA!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

http://www.layhands.com/IsMasturbationASin.htm

I think the link above does a good job at an explination of this topic and the side topics it has generated within the thread.

I found it when trying to find an article I had read by Dr. Dobson about this topic.

ILMF,

You often defer jokes (or comments on humor) to Slappy, but you do crack some good ones. I really like the way you put that one.

MG and Seven,

Lordy, Lordy...bahahaha!!! I can't help myself, that was funny. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Love you both. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Aeri,

If my jaw wasn't flapping open and closed, I might could find something to say.

LOL.

People were invented too, you know. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

You know you and I could disagree over which way the earth tilts. (((Hugs to you. I enjoy some of these comments.)))

Petals

For the record, I NEVER said my husband's shaft was red and scaly. NEVER. A very minor rash, but definately not red and scaly. Not sure where you got that from, but...whatever. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by marriedgirl:
For the record, I NEVER said my husband's shaft was red and scaly. NEVER. A very minor rash, but definately not red and scaly. Not sure where you got that from, but...whatever. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> <hr /></blockquote>I stand corrected and apologize for misquoting you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> You didn't say "scaly".....

" Since my H has been home, we've noticed little red dots on his "member"... at first I noticed them mainly around the bottom and they looked like clogged pores or tiny zits . Now they're more spread out and although they're small, it's hard not to notice them . They're like tiny [b]red dots that resemble razor burn, but on the shaft[/b] . The skin is fLAking a little around some of them......Whatever. I don't think he's such an evil monster that he would put me at risk by sleeping with someone else, get spots all over his [censored] , continue wanting to sleep with me (thereby putting my health/LIFE in danger) and all the while telling me very calmly I have nothing to worry about. ... ......"

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Zuzus_Petals:
MG and Seven,

Lordy, Lordy...bahahaha!!! I can't help myself, that was funny. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Love you both. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />
<hr /></blockquote>I'm ashamed to say.....I, too, am laughing! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> But it IS funny when you go back and read the exchange <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Okay....I was suppose to be putting this to rest and returning to the previously scheduled programming....."Masterbation (Masturbation) and The Bible....I should know better". I jez cudn't hep mahsef! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

[ September 07, 2003, 05:00 PM: Message edited by: Seven63 ]

.....................

[ September 07, 2003, 05:00 PM: Message edited by: Seven63 ]

LOL, and what exactly was the purpose of posting all of that again? Yep, that's about right. Little dots that looked like razor burn. Turned out to be a soap rash. It's hard to believe that would gross a woman out who gets a thrill from posting about her wet, gutteral, dirty sex and how she loves her H's d*** slopping around in her pulsing c***. And THAT'S not a little overboard? Give me a break. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Just wanted to add that even my H is disgusted after hearing some of your sexual descriptions seven. And LORD KNOWS he's not a prude! Talk about gutteral, you should've heard the sound that came out of his throat after reading a couple of your posts...and this man is not easily offended, hehe. At least I'm not the only one! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> LOL!!

[ September 07, 2003, 05:07 PM: Message edited by: marriedgirl ]

Lord have mercy....

I had to get up and make popcorn to be able to read this one... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

{{{{{{crunch}}}}}} ((munch)) [[[[[crunch]]]]

Pass the salt please <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

committed

This thread has really gone off on an odd direction, which is not necessarily a bad thing.

Amusing definately, but vaguely disturbing. I have a son that just turned 13, and I have a husband who was told that masturbating was bad, wrong, shameful, a mortal sin. It caused serious problems for him with guilt etc for many many years. It was not until 2 years ago that he admitted that he ever had or does. It took a lot of conversations to get him to see that it is ok and nothing to be ashamed of. Those same things he was taught about masturbation spilled over into his views of sex. So that led to there being some serious issues to work through there as well. It did not help that his church had preached that sex was only for procreation, that ended up having a worse affect on him after i had my tubes tied. If there was no possibility of it creating a baby then it was wrong. We had some difficult times until i was able to get him to open up about it because of all the guilt, he always tried to meet my need for sf, because he knows it is important to me, but it caused a lot of guilt on his part.

I really hope that we are finally getting to a place within our knowledge that children can be raised not to feel that exploring their sexuality alone, in the privacy of their bedroom with their door locked is wrong. Besides the psychological benefits of raising them to be comfortable with their bodies, are also other benefits. Studies have shown that teens who masturbate are less likely to end up with an std, are less likely to have to deal with an unwanted pregnancy, or to give into the peer pressure to have sex before they are ready. They are more self confident. BUT ONLY if they have not been taught that it is wrong, and a sin.

It all boils down to being a personal preference. Even children/teens have a right to privacy when it comes to this topic. You don't have to encourage them to do it, and you sure as heck should not discourage them from doing it. Just tell them it is ok if they do and ok if they don't, it is their choice and that it is not something they have to tell anyone about. No one has the right to judge them other than God and God does not have a preference either as long as it does not go against any of his teachings, such as porn usage, or after marrying and it leading to denying the spouse of your body.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by marriedgirl:
LOL, and what exactly was the purpose of posting all of that again? Yep, that's about right. Little dots that looked like razor burn. Turned out to be a soap rash. It's hard to believe that would gross a woman out who gets a thrill from posting about her wet, gutteral, dirty sex and how she loves her H's d*** slopping around in her pulsing c***. And THAT'S not a little overboard? Give me a break. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> <hr /></blockquote>You search and post MY posts (which you seem to be obsessed with)and upon finding one of YOUR quotes is "going overboard"?!?!? Are you schizo or just that ......... well?!?!? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

[ September 07, 2003, 08:12 PM: Message edited by: Seven63 ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by marriedgirl:
Just wanted to add that even my H is disgusted after hearing some of your sexual descriptions seven. And LORD KNOWS he's not a prude! Talk about gutteral, you should've heard the sound that came out of his throat after reading a couple of your posts...and this man is not easily offended, hehe. At least I'm not the only one! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> LOL!!<hr /></blockquote>You SURE he isn't one of those sex starved horny men who's thoughts you SEEM to so intuned to? hhhmmmmmm???? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> And if you let your husband read ALL of the things you say about HIM, I'm sure the sounds coming out of his mouth would be much worse then THAT! ha ha <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

MBFW.....AMEN!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

You know, if this were happening in real life I would either be standing at a distance trying not to get hurt (flying glass bottles, the odd high heel misplaced my way, etc) or standing at a safe distance with ILMF sharing some popcorn.

Don't make me take out the bell to end this! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

MG, if you are worried about what you look like when you masturbate, I think you're kind of missing the point... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Seven,
I was referring to your explicit sex talk as going overboard. And hon, I don't need to search very hard to find your obscene sex posts. They're pretty much everywhere. Have a blessed night, just spare us from the gory details in the morning <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

DevotedHusb-
BTW, your masturbation slang gave H and I a good laugh. Those were hilarious! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

[ September 07, 2003, 09:49 PM: Message edited by: marriedgirl ]

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