I'm sorry, dude...but your WW's first thread is titled "Caught between the two". You need to come to terms with the fact that Rain is having an affair...the title of that thread says it all. Take care of yourself. I know from experience that the only one who had the ability to end the affair is your WW. Take care of yourself and your son, your WW is no good for either of you in the state that she is in...she will ruin you both. I'm sorry you have to join the worst club in the world...the BH club.

I suggested to her that you both need to read His Needs/Her Needs...and probably fill out the EN worksheet...

Don't know if SHE is ready for that, but you could start YOUR bit of the homework.

Also, good for you - prolly her too, but not yet - would be Surviving an Affair.

I think you mentioned about counciling being cost prohibitive right now, but you might find those books at the library.

If you don't sometimes more experienced posters clean out their libraries and might send copies to you just for the shipping costs (book rates are cheap!).

All of what she has said TO you and on her thread, I have heard from my husband when he was wayward.

Remember, you cannot change her - that is only HERs to do - but you CAN change your reactions to her.

Sometimes THOSE changes make all the difference in the world.

Dude,

What are Rain's emotional needs? Is there anyway that she will let you meet some of them?

I think it is good that you aren't forcing her to post here. She won't learn anything if she doesn't have the desire to change.

Why do you want to stay married to Rain? Why would Rain want to stay married to you?

I think that divorce could be easier than fixing a marriage. You can hire a lawyer today and get it started. I don't think it would be better for either of you . . . or your kid. Fixing a damaged marriage is damn hard work. Of course the things you value most in life are things that you struggle to obtain.

I've lost this in the conversation but is Rain still in contact with the OM?

No, not that I know of. She claims to have cut off all contact with him, but that was just a few days ago. If she chooses to do so, there is no way I would find out, as she has mastered the underground hidden techniques of hiding stuff. I don't have access to her work phone, etc. The only way I can tell is by talking to her and trying to put 2 and 2 together just from her actions and attitude. By the way, I have gotten pretty good at this over the years, I just wish my energies were spent on happier things.

I printed up the EN questionnaire back in January and we filled them out. I threw them away a few weeks ago, thinking they did no good and were just sitting there collecting dust. I think it would be good for us to fill them out again and discuss them openly, and even asking for advice here on our questions. I want her to fill them out openly and honestly and actually put some time and thought into it. I don't think she did that last time.

She is really hung up on guilt of the things she has done and her dissatisfaction with my personality. I am hung up on the things she has done and the consequences that has caused my personality shift.

I was probably clinically depressed many times over the years and just did not seek help. I crawl into a shell and get quiet and moody and broody. I also used the computer as a crutch, playing games, etc. and that is one reason she is against male computer use so much.

I really love her, but we haven't taken very good care of one another these past 15 years. I feel I could go out within a year and find a wonderful woman to have a relationship with, but why do that when Rain has all the potential in the world. I feel like I owe her that much, just to be a man of my word, and give her the opportunity to do the right thing. What do we really have to lose by trying? If her heart is really in it, I have nothing to lose.

I'm no longer that doormat and I'm going to do what I feel is right and show her the way home. I'm not afraid of the uncertainties anymore. If she takes it, then we will start.

Even if "her" heart isn't in it, you still have nothing to lose and everything to gain by trying. Whether your marriage sinks or swims...if you try...and be graceful in doing so...you and your son will be better for it. JMHO

Intro,
THAT is the most "graceful" thing I have heard you say in the last few days.

Good post.

Dude,

Please consider doing the ENQs and the LBQ at the same time.

Glad you're considering doing the ENQs again. Fog affects, so please keep that in mind. This will be information for right now...and also, keep in mind the ENs which are being met well are rarely in the top group because they don't hit our radar. I had FS as not very important...and it was VERY important to me, just that my DH was meeting it so well, until he considered quitting his job...then I noticed how much it meant to me.

I've had a foggy life experience until coming to MB.

Eliminating my LBs was crucial in our turnaround, btw.


Sounds like you and Rain have that wish in common. Somehow, I don't think you make happy your moral.

She can act transparently, for her own clarity and curiosity as to why she keeps repeating her patterns. Transparency is great for that...for killing your own fog, which feels like crystal clarity when you're in it, by doing that which you don't feel like doing...gains balance. Helps you, too.

She can find ways to be transparent.

Watching her words and actions as a signal of contact is one part...and I do believe you've are good at it...having that be your only means, though, of verifying the truth (isn't a way, really), would mean you couldn't remove DJs from your life...too much overlap.

Moving into Withdrawal a lot isn't part of your personality...it's a choice you make, probably going from Intimacy straight to Withdrawal to avoid conflict. Change your choices...change your life experience. You may not want to stay in conflict (it is closer to intimacy than withdrawal because humans can connect through conflict), just as she may not want to act transparently...for the same reason, to be true to yourself, stay in conflict and not choose withdrawal.

Moody is just another word for not knowing and owning your emotions. Do it anyway...it's a word for acting out your emotions instead of knowing and stating them. "I" statements are fabulous to help you not act moody, know and share the emotions you are experiencing (the mood you are in).

Can you see where using the computer to distract from your pain and fear is similar to her distractions? She's taken her to extremes...I'm not saying you have...limited distraction is healthy, has purpose in grieving...good to know what you've been grieving for decades, though, 'k?

I share these similarities to show you that you are a team, you guys are on a journey together, and it's not all good and bad folks here...there's destructive and constructive...and I believe, you can see better in her signals for you, and she can see better in you, what really are signals from her, for her.

A's are like acting out Withdrawal...so are addictions...again, they avoid internal and external conflict (even as they actually produce MORE strife)...no blame or fault here...showing how you working on your stuff does help your partner because it helps your half of the marriage. Ditto for her.

Not about personalities, about choices and the patterns we've had in our choices.


Kudos and appreciation for choosing this perspective. You're smack on reality...thank you for being on MB.

LA

Dude,

Just some thoughts. People here are sort of frustrated with your W as you are, BUT we have had harder cases here than this, trust me. This is a process and her posting for only a few days is just the start. It will take time for what has been said and what will be said to sink in, have patience OK?

What has to happen is that she needs to shift her perspective concerning herself, happiness, you, and your son. This takes time. She does not need to change but her perspective needs to change.

Having her post here is a good idea, and if I were you keep encouraging it. Here is the sad but true news. Even if the marriage ends she will not find happiness with her current skill level. That is bad news for your son, and by definition it is bad news for you because you will have to deal with her no matter what.

I'm hoping with time she like many others very much like her, will start to see things for herself and as she does she will begin to modify her perspective. Like I said it may still mean the marriage ends, but you need and she really needs to have better tools for handling things. She can obtain them here.

The starting gun has just fired on a marathon, and you can expect many ups and downs on the course. No one is going the say "the magic word" and get everything alright. There is no "ah Ha!" moment that will come to her that will help her sort this all out. It is incremental and it takes time.

Give it time, encourage her to post here, and let's see if she begins to see things differently in a few weeks or a month or so.

If she is actually in NC, then she is very likely to be in withdrawal, and people in withdrawal are like drug addicts going through withdrawal: mean, inconsistent, needy, in pain, confused, angry, and struggling. I would say she has exhibited all of those traits wouldn't you.

She must go through withdrawal and that can take on order a month or so. The worst will be over in a few weeks, and you are not even to a week right?

So keep engaged with her, be kind to her, but also don't take anything she says too seriously right now. It will change.

Dude, TRUST THIS: she knows has done and doing wrong. What she doesn't know is how to address what she knows.

God Bless,

JL

Dude unit:

I posted this link on another thread, but I want 2 post it here and on your W's thread as well, as it relates.

It's about how adults do marriage, and intelligently addresses many of the confusion and fears you each have (perhaps in different ways), probably better than anything I've read:

http://www.smartmarriages.com/growup.html

-ol' 2long

God, that is so close to how I feel right now. The weird part is that I'm five years removed from my wife's affair. But your words are the story of my experience. Everyone seems to think that Plan D is my best and/or only option. But I love the "good parts" of my wife so much that I just can't give up on her... not yet, anyway. I don't have any great advice to give you. But I can only assume that the pain I felt and confusion that I'm feeling again are very similar to what you're experiencing. Sometimes, I just take comfort in knowing that others can relate. I hope this all sorts itself out for you soon. You deserve to see the sun shine through the clouds again.

I'd take my son and leave her with her parents until she decided to grow up!

Your wife is actively cheating on you.....AGAIN!

She is ABUSING your son by doing so!

Be a MAN and stop this bu77sh*t!

After reading her crap I have zero sympathy for her!

Hi 2long,

Thanks for posting that link... it was really good to read!

Dude,

bold added by me

rain is looking for a reason to choose the M; this is it.

Good job!

Blessings.

S&C

I MUST add something. . .

Rain, are you reading?

Think about the MAN who is hanging in there for you versus the MALE who would boff a married woman and betray his family, himself, you, and your family.

Just a bit of perspective.

Larry

I did not have a good weekend personally. It's becoming very hard when we spend more time together to "fake" it and remain calm and cool. It's a lot easier during the week with work and school. She is in a completely different place than I am and the person I married a long time ago has changed into a completely different person.

Although, I have seen this "alternate" person a lot over the years, it makes me wonder if this is really fog or if this is really her. Definitely this is not the person I married a long time ago, but I do remember some of this behavior during the first affair. She justified the affair because of me back then and she's doing the same thing now.

I gave in and talked about D this past weekend too, although I didn't intend on it. She seems to not care very much either way. If you count the first affair, the years where she went to college and gambled a ton of money away and now this, we have very few years in our marriage that were not filled with strife that was self induced. Why does she do these things and not just own up to her part and request a D? I have not been a terrible husband, and whomever she would have been married to would have experienced the same things as I just to different degrees.

I probably need a little motivation to keep this going, as talking to her is just disheartening and I don't have a lot of steam left right now. I can't plan B, unless I move out and to me, that is just working on a plan D. She will read this, so any plan is going to be out there in the open. I'm still sitting still, but I'm covered in ants.

Not sure how "you" moving out of the house has to be the only option. When my WW had an affair, I kicked her [censored] out. Why would I/you have to leave?...the only honorable thing she could possibly do would be to leave if plan B/D is in the works. If she refuses to leave, then you may still have a glimmer of hope in the marriage. My WW refused to leave, but eventually did (after a lot of crying and refusal from her...and me telling her that it's the honorable thing to do, at the time). My WW threw her right to live in the house away, by having an affair...so did Rain. IMHO.

Dude,

You've heard the alien abduction analogy for wayward mind set? The WW is not your W. I think you're detecting that. Tough to see as they bear a striking physical resemblance.

I think you've seen this WW person in her first A, in the gambling addiction and in her second A. It's when the wayward mindset takes over.

She's not the woman you fell in love with--and she can be that woman again. I believe she wants to be that woman again.

When you spend UA time together in RC time...you are sharing experiences together...and leaving out the R talk...so you can experience one another again. It's not fake at all...it's opportunity. You can make it less or more than it is...do it anyway.

You and your WW have experienced one another enemies for a long time, intensely, and less intensely, off and on. We do this in marriage...when the reality is WW has attacked The Marriage, and you have been an enemy of her destructive choices.

You are not enemies. You have always been allies. You're both half of the union. Sure feels like we are being attacked, even annihilated, when in reality, the blows and destruction are against your union...The Marriage.

RC time...UA time within it...recalls to each of your minds how you experienced each other, side by side, without direct attacks or being enemies. Playing together, expressing joy, laughter, understanding...all things we associate with allies is crucial to understanding and acceptance (which isn't approval).

Leave your approval out of it for this UA time.

And when you ponder who is the real her...think on this...in the first stage of marriage, we (including you) showed your best self-image...and saw in her great parts of you that you may not have known were in you (same for her); in the second stage of marriage, we begin to show all of our self-images to each other...part of intimacies and truly knowing and being known. We think we're showing our true selves...when we aren't. The second stage is a lot of conflict, illusion, fantasy and grappling with reality, what reality is...and I think it's when we begin, if we own our stuff, to see our self-image is not us at all...and get a hold of who we really are--before we spoke a single word or chose a single action.

I see the third stage of marriage, the mature love stage, as the culmination of our self growth meeting that of our partner's self growth...seeing and knowing true selves...which is ten times more incredible than even our first stage in our emotions and experiences.

Part of the process is you hearing and knowing her justifications as hers...and not taking them as the truth...for they cannot be. See, you can't justify anything in this world...humans do and don't do...we choose. You can know what she did cannot be justified, even as you hear her justifying. Listen and repeat what you hear and hand it back. That's an act of respect...to her and yourself. Her beliefs are hers...they are valid because she's choosing them...valid to her. Not the truth...her truth.

You didn't give in...you chose to cross your own boundary and you feel the consequences of doing so. You feel fake, attacked, powerless and attacked. You're gonna feel that every time you cross your own boundary--break your own promises to yourself. What do you do when you cross your boundary?

Same for the DJs I see in your last post...are DJs okay in your book? If they are okay for you to do, then they are okay for them to be done to you...which is why eliminating LBs is so important...they aren't who we really are, certainly not how we want to treat others or be treated; again, what do you hold yourself to doing when you cross your own boundary?

We tend to focus on holding our wayward spouses to not crossing our marital boundaries...won't work if we won't hold ourselves to our own. As humans, what we do to ourselves, we will do to others...we don't enforce around us, our behavior, we will not around others who cross important boundaries, either. Signals we're doing this is confusion, mixed emotions, anger you can't place from a fear you haven't named.

Powerless is a feeling we get when we are dwelling where we have no power...which would be focused on our partners, into their stuff and abandoning our own...only place we have real power.

Feeling attacked comes from taking in what others' say as The Truth, not their opinion. We allow others to define us and define the truth as fact. When we stop, we also stop feeling attacked.

When we feel confusion, indecisive as to what to do or say, it's a signal we are looking at getting someone else to change, to have more influence or control, to even cure. When we bring our own goal to mind, our code, then we know what to do or say, because it's based on our stuff, not theirs; not their possible response.

Most frustration we feel is a signal that we are basing our choices on possible outcome...which no one can predict or control when it involves human behavior. We have inherent choice, all the time...that's a lot. That frustration is a mix of pain and fear...we WANT to be able to cure others to be safe...we want to be able to change others' minds, save their marriages, protect their children...we are not able to do any of that. People do that...they are their own cures, cause and control...it's inviolate.

When they change their minds...well, they do. They do it from changing their beliefs, their own priorities, establishing their own code...and often from these choices, their marriage is saved...their half as important as the other.

There are several posters here on MB and who have been here as evidence of what I'm saying. They began as you did..."I want to stand for my marriage so that I can look back ten years from now and say I did everything I could for what I wanted most."

That's it...no outcome...so you personally recovery no matter what. That's the only recovery entirely within your control.

I believe Rain married you, Dude, because she saw in you her best shot at happiness in her lifetime. I believe that remains true...and I believe you married her for the same reasons...to heal and know all of your real self...not self-image. I believe you are equal in every way...and each of you can grow, side by side, know and be known with incredible intimacy, respect and experience abundant, persisting love.

Strife is when we don't know we connect through conflict. When we don't own our half...when we try to get the other person to stop hurting us even as they are trying to get us to stop hurting them. Both of you then experience a literal world of hurt.

Same is true when we stop reacting to our fear and begin acting consciously from our choice to love each other. Both of you then experience a literal world of love, acceptance, respect and cherishing and being cherished.

Verify NC and begin to do communication exercises, stick to 15 hours a week of play time (RC) in new RC. We can get love deposits to sustain us through infidelity from dwelling on previous acts of love when we need to do so. Part of another way to go wayward...dwelling on previous harm we felt done to us.

Do the opposite.

Sustain your love and remember the loving acts of love you've done...recognize those she did, too...she did them freely, from her choice to love you (that's the reality) and you couldn't be a good enough husband to earn them...you couldn't be a terrible enough husband to earn her betrayal, either.

She gives, you gives. She receives and you receive. Know where your thoughts dwell...sneakiest place for DJs are in our minds.

Okay for her to know your plan...because it's yours, your goal what you are working for. Sounds to me, it's for your marriage. You excel at that, IMO.

LA

She seems to have abandoned her thread.

I don't think she wants to be reached, because the first step is getting rid of OM. My impression is that since she has ignored every mention of that (and every thread says get rid of OM...) she is not willing to get rid of OM. She dances around it saying they don't talk anymore -- but won't outright commit to no contact.

So now, you have to make decisions that are best for YOU.

She made mention of the fact she would assume all the gambling debt. That you would be able to leave free and clear.
You might want to consider that. At least get a separation agreement in place that addresses that.

Thanks for the words LA, I need a little pick me up. I also need to work on the DJ's, as they have been a problem for a long time with me. I think I have been dishing those out for a long time now.

Thanks Lexxy, I'm not sure she has abandoned it, but we both have a lot of work to do right now, so it may be sporadic. I also have the same questions you do. She has refused to send a NC letter, stating that the verbal NC was enough. I am torn on insisting a letter versus just "taking her word for it". Is that a DJ also or just the way I mean it, lol?