Medc,
I was shocked that he used the color card, but knew that wouldn't last long once I told my side and even confronted him about it.

I think it was a way for him to describe how he feels like he's gotten a raw deal.

Getting the raw deal still leaves me perplexed because I wasn't hiding who I am when we met and I wasn't that I still had kids to raise either. They were 16/14/7 at the time.

It's been good for me to see the "take" on his post and what people are reading from a different perspective than my own. Much of what is being said I have felt, but not known how to articulate. Some of it I have said over and over.

Today...I am taking my days one at a time. I have already told him that he needs his own Recovery plan and I'm not going to be the "mother" of it.

I do love him, but I am prepared to let him go if that's the ultimate best choice for me and my health and longevity.

oh ok, when you said addict I thought you meant a drug addict or an alcoholic, because THAT is what Dr Harley is referring to when he says they must get treatment for their addiction FIRST. The reason is because someone on mind altering dope cannot respond to marital recovery tactics, so they have to sober up first.

KA,
I agree that he needs some sort of group therapy and SA seems to be the one. Believer mentioned RecoveryNation as well. I think that might be an online one. I'm going to pass all that information along to WH. He has to take those action steps, he has not done so in the past.

I will be sure to mention all this in the 1st session so that the Harleys don't waste their time with us if they think the addiction needs more work before we continue. And I'm going to stay with my IC and if I can counsel with the Harleys alone too, I will do that.

Actually Mel - when Dr. Harley counseled me, my husband was not dealing with any other addiction than his addiction to p*rn.

Can you explain why you would choose someone so immature for a H? Have you given that any thought? He is a boy looking for mama; what do you think you were looking for when you chose such a man?

Don't get me wrong, I am not criticizing you; I have made similar bad choices and had to examine the reasons why.

It has empowered me in my own personal growth to honestly examine my own hand in bad situations so I could CHANGE. Taking accountability for my own bad choices has EMPOWERED ME. RATHER than crying victim, as many women unfortunately do. There is no empowerment in victimhood.

What was his counsel about that?

Believer,
Yes...he has posted some dissatisfaction and voiced it to me as well. Specifically outlining some items during our recent "re-do" of the EN questionnaire.

I feel like I have worked hard at meeting his EN for Communication again since I realized that it hurt him that I was "checking out". We have both consciously started working on the UA. Only my DD is with us this summer since OS is on his mission and YS is in another state with his father. My IC started out to learn more about enforcing consequences with my boundaries for DD, then once I got in there, I admitted that I don't do it with WH as well so he is working on that with me too. We've only met twice so far, but he gives me homework.

I also have been to Dr.'s and have made appts. for additional Dr.'s for the symptoms that I am suffering that have not afforded me much energy or strength to do my own part around the house. I truly believe that my physical health has been affected by the toxicity of the multiple EA's. I have the early onset of fibromyalgia and spend sleepless nights in pain. So I'm taking control of my situation by finding the right remedy that can still keep me active enough to contribute around the house.

Some of it I don't think I can change because I do believe that he does have the child like mentality and his angry outbursts are because he does more than the kids. He was raised different than me and different than I have raised my kids. I have always been COMPLETELY open to him being the father figure and TEACHING them a different way. I'm never opposed to him giving the kids chores, I support him in front of the kids and even behind his back when they are calling me and saying...do I have to do this? Or can I go somewhere? If he's the one at home, I say, check with WH first. See what needs to be done, did you do your chores, etc?

I will admit that it still has room for much improvement. I just feel robbed from the ability to have a normal, stable R since I have allowed this EA's to break my spirit and gone back into depression about it. Sometimes I feel completely paralyzed.

He had me working on an individual improvement plan - recommended that we talk again once Kasey had a job and was in an environment socially to deal with the addiction appropriately. And for the time being, to work on myself, getting better at avoiding lovebusters, for my own confidence. He said that we couldn't work on the marriage until my husband was truly in recovery - which to Dr. Harley represented employment and a productive life.

I'm sorry I fell for some of what he said, too.


This raises a huge red flag to me. It smacks of a level of immaturity, of competition with the children for resources (not only your time and attention but also food). I've heard of child abuse incidents that were supposedly "started" when a child ate something that was "someone else's." I hope I can assume that physical abuse isn't an issue here.

What is your perception of how *he* treats *them*, when there isn't an issue of competing for your attention? In your opinion, is it that of a nurturing, caring adult? Or is it more along the lines of, a teenager, ok to trust to babysit but not truly having the kids' best interests at heart? For example, would he take the burnt piece of toast for himself, or would he leave it for the kids and take the best piece of toast himself?

Not to detract from more important issues, this just jumped out at me and no one else mentioned it so I thought I would.

Then it is necessary to put on your own oxygen mask first. There are lots of creative ways to get the housework done. We used to do it as a family for an hour on Staurday morning. We kept that time free and work got done before any activities. It is surprising how easy it is when everyone pitches in.

Also if family members get into the habit of cleaning up after themselves and having a place for everything and putting it there, things will go smoother.

Mel,

I have looked at that....more so recently and deeply.

First of all, he put on the BEST show ever when we met and were dating. We rushed into M (his choice) after 6 months. I DID NOT give it enough time to REALLY see who he was.

The man that he portrayed to me during the time that I was "choosing" him (because I was dating others as well after my D), was almost like he had gotten into my head and knew exactly what I was looking for and said all the right things.

I had been M for a LONG time and met my 1st H when I was 16 so I was naive and immature in choosing men, that's for sure.

I look back and even in the choice of my 1st H (which IC and I are discussing as well) it was choosing a man that "needed" me. I didn't realize it at the time, but I have enabled that "mother" role in M. It's yucky when I think about it and I plan to keep working on that part of me because if I have a 2nd strike and end up dating again, I REFUSE to allow my weaknesses to put me in another place of disaster.

I may have been BLIND to the lifestyle he had on the Internet. I shouldn't have been because that's how he met me, but I was new to that scene. My kids showed me how to even create an email address. I was far too trusting, gave trust immediately without him needing to earn it or show any signs of being trustworthy.

My biological father abandoned me, my step-father (who adopted me and I call him dad) provided for us and was very strict, but never really knew how to show love. He tries his best, but I didn't have a father-daughter R growing up so I had "lots" of BF's filling the gap.

So far I've only been able to trace it back to the one comment of both of my H's "needed" me. I don't like saying it out loud like that, but it's the cold hard truth.

jayne,

Good questions and important too.

He has been a great father, he had a good father and parents that did not divorce and they taught him many good things too, along with some I don't care for.

When he gets worked up about something, he can get very emotional. He has had 1 incident with OS when OS was smoking pot and doing crank in our home. He got in his face about it. Considering the path that OS was on and the many times that WH picked him up out of the curb or off the stairs and put him to bed, I think that a biological father would have had those "in the face" moments as well. OS has now completely turned his life around and over to God and is on a mission.

He and DD have had lots of verbal run-ins. She doesn't have an ounce of respect for me, treats me and him very poorly so we have been working through that TOGETHER. She has improved since living with us again and having her son (5 mos).

YS is now reaching that rebellious teen period (14) and he has started to mouth off a little. WH was very frustrated with him recently when he was failing his classes and getting in trouble at school and felt like he was disrespecting and disobeying our rules so he has been stern about it.

He sits with them and has the father "talks". He is quite long-winded so it drives them crazy sometimes because he will go on and on and on, but he makes sense. You can tell that he paid attention to his father's long talks and he's passing that wisdom along.

He has had several private one on ones with DD lately about raising her son and life in general.

OS credits him for much of what he has learned to grow up and now be in the mission field. YS and he have good father-son time together, recreational activities. And he is very active in YS school, he's the one that talks to the teachers and such.

He has had conversations with them where he admits he is not perfect and has made mistakes and tells them not to be like him. He doesn't tell them about the OW or the porn, more about showing respect to me, etc.

I hate the "special" food thing, but he has gotten to where he will buy their version of special food now too. For example, YS thinks that Vitamin D milk tastes the best ever (yuck) so WH will purchase him that kind. Or DD likes a certain type of Ice Cream, he will buy that for her, etc. He still has a HUGE problem with their waste factor, getting something out and them not finishing it. But I feel like those things are "normal" family issues. Not someone disrespecting him into an acting out phase. KWIM?

That's what I mean about the Jekyll and Hyde.

He knows how to be a mature, loving father and husband. But he chooses into destructive behavior and I believe that child mentality underneath it all is very strong!

You are doing a great disservice to your daughter by letting her live in your home and disrespect you.

All my kids respected us and our home, and pitched in and did their share, housework, school, or jobs. I had a run in with my son when he was 17 and got in a fight with my husband. Told him he was welcome to leave if he didn't like the rules.

Had another with my step-daughter when she was 18. Let her know that she could go by her own rules when she got the H out of our home and had her own.

All of our kids are on their own now, some with families, none of them in jail, none take drugs.

OUC, how old is your H and how old are you?


I can't tell you how much this bothers me. A wayward imparting his "wisdom" to growing, developing children? OUC, are you kidding me? A wayward mind is not in touch with reality and has the mental affliction of moral relativism. THAT IS POISON TO A TEENAGER. The only thing he can impart is FOGBABBLE that will greatly confuse an ALREADY confused mind. My wayward father had me confused and screwed up for YEARS, well into my early 30's by imparting his "wisdom" that I was too young and inexperienced to recognize as FOOLISHNESS.

My fathers "wisdom" could be summed up like this: "reality is what you make it" [meaning there is no right and wrong and I get to make up the rules and that he was too screwed up to discern reality] and " ya just have to do what makes ya happy!" [ie; if getting drunk makes me "happy" then go for it!]

That is the kind of idiotic pablum that passes for "wisdom" to a wayward mind in addition to all manner of psychobabble disguised as wisdom. It is mental illness, it is DYSFUNCTION and that is where the mind of a wayward resides.

How can your H possibly be a role model to these kids when he is a practicing serial cheater? What ARE you doing, OUC?

REALLY??? Shocked??? Not me. I see it played for all it is worth in this country every single day of the week. I am more shocked when it isn't played these days.

Jayne,

I want to say that this isn't uncommon at all for men. My DH was really put out with the kids eating "his special stuff" even after he told them not to do so.

Think of it this way...you're making a dinner and have all the ingredients from the store...comes time to make it and the cheese is missing. Kids ate the cheese...now you can't make the dinner as you'd plan. As mothers, we don't put limits on eating...we think, oh, eat when you're hungry! Grow! And yet, like all areas of our lives, we put healthy limits on consumption...television, sleep, work, play...you name it.

Why not include food? To a reasonable degree? Healthy limits on what is allowed and not? After school, you can have two apples or a P&B sandwich each day. Gives choice, healthy limits and means there may be cereal in the morning instead of them having eaten through the rest of the box after school in front of the tube or while doing their homework.

I had the same reaction you did...immature, uncooperative, petty and rude. I did. I had to change my perspective by rummaging through my beliefs. You can have areas in a refridgerator...for everyone, just for kids, for you and your spouse. Same for the cupboards. Key is communication...like ownership in saying, "Here's my four dove bars. I have nights when I want to indulge myself. Not healthy for me, not a routine, either. It's special and I really want it to be there when I want it. When it isn't, I feel resentful, angry and deprived."

Open communication and specialness. Within the core group that is family. Food is one where our FOO issues come right up to the surface and we are really reactive about. Not shared resources.

I understand your point about child abuse. There's a lesson for autonomy, respect and getting along in a group when it comes to food we provide. Food is very personal, our brains do not process it as substance...has emotional, spiritual and mental impact as well as physical. It's part of our own journies how we get to where...and what I heard from you is that this is important, and in your family something that only wide open and everyone sharing no matter what (which is an extreme) is acceptable.

I may be way off in my perception. Just wanted to share this was another resentment point with my DH because I refused to really hear and understand what it was. We put alcohol as off limits and it's a food...we put tons of candy off limits because it's a food. Getting balance in our reasoning is what I'm addressing.

My filter was this--my first mother had Leukemia, so there were many days when I was two years old until 8 years old that I didn't eat. I remember the hunger really well. I ate lipstick, things that looked like food. I remember Fruit Loops without milk the most. With my stepmother, food was severely limited in a new way. She didn't do snacking...she did three full meals a day and one proscribed snack after school. She had limits on what we could make for breakfast, put in our lunches. She had a large cabinet in a hallway (about half a kitchen) which was off limits for her stuff...included frostings, snack foods, etc...and she didn't eat them in front of us. They were reserved for the right time to share. My sister and I would sneak certain items and then buy a replacement at the store. Not too O&H and left us caught and punished several times. Because a battle. I do understand where you're coming from...moderate limits with a lot of open communication and ownership...not one right way...is important.

I think getting away from the all or nothing is best..getting to the apex, the 90 degrees is the goal. And understanding is essential along the way.

Goes to boundaries and healthy enforcement...so it doesn't become a control/power struggle and it adds to your experience as a family, a unit, a team.

LA

Believer,

I am working on enforcing consequences for my DD when she crosses my boundaries. However, she has been back with us for 1 year since leaving, getting married and pregnant. This has been the best year that we have had with her. She is still difficult to deal with, but she and WH have started to finally have a R. They get along well now and she does not disrespect him.

I also know that his pain runs deep from the beginning when she did and my exH was instigating and fueling that. It was hard on ALL of us.

I also see thru his posts that he has held on to that anger and resentment from back then. It's almost like he is stuck there and talking about where we are now, from that point.

I thought I was listening to him back then, but I think I was panicked, unprepared, ignorant, naive and from a Codependent stand point, trying to take on everyone's issues and make them my own to be a buffer from it all. Truth be told, I probably should have allowed a few more blow ups for them to get their feelings all out on the table, but I was always talking to WH behind closed doors trying to get him to calm down and see their point of view. Then always telling them that their feelings weren't valid and that they needed to respect him and listen to what he was saying. I made quite the mess of everything, it seems as the warden of this household.

I've come a long way though. Many things are not the same as now as he is expressing them (like I said, his deep pain is from the original years), I'm not discounting what he is saying, it's his process.

Some things are worse though. For example, my health...and now with 4 hours of commuting and the fibromyalgia pain in my legs, he's right, I do absolutely nothing when I get home except pick up after myself. I hate that I don't have more to give. That's another reason that I'm seeking medical and emotional help. There are times when I think if I wasn't married to him and had the weight of his continuous adultery, a veil may be lifted and I will be well. Hmm...not sure.

Absolutely agreed that DD cannot disrespect us by not following our rules. I am working on a contract for her with IC and am prepared for her to move out if need be. She will only be here 6 more months before she graduates, gets a job and moves out on her own. That is her goal.

If you were to ask my children, they would say that I always take his side, always have to ask him first before making a decision, spend more time with him than them. Part of that is because the R I had with their father was unhealthy and we as parents were on the same level as them. WH taught me that there is a difference in the parent-child level.

Hope that makes sense.

Mel,
That's why I say it's Jekyll and Hyde. I don't know how more to describe it. I'm sitting there when he has these talks and they make all the sense in the world. I watch him interact with my children and my family and even with me and from the outside looking in, it would appear that we are well, that we have a great family.

Over the last 3 years of M, there are times when I can't believe that we have the baggage that we do, that things seem to be going along so well. Then all of a sudden he will "act out" and it's like being hit with a ton of bricks. It's like he's punishing me.

I do completely see your point about the role model thing though. I have seen a good man and father in him. But there's this dark side that keeps coming out and causing damage.

I'm 40, he's 36.

I have a step daughter that is bi-polar. She has 5 kids by 4 different men. She won't take meds either. You are playing with fire by having her in your home. You are not helping her.

If I would venture a guess about the next scenario, she will have 3 or 4 more kids by different men and not be able to take care of any of them.

onlyUcan:
Hi, I am new here but my DH and I went through a difficult time when he was that age; mid-life is what he counts it up as along with dealing with past abuse by his mother.I have learned a lot of things about myself, my DH and his daughter; my 17 1/2 yr old step daughter who lives with us-(long story) and all these things are opportunities to learn and grow and become more Christ-like...it is hard. I am hearing your concern and frustration...I will hold you up in my prayers. The first few years of our M was BLISS and then we got pregnant with our 7 yr old son...the next 3-4 years were HARD...controlling behavior, VA (verbal abuse-Jekyl/Hyde behavior) by both DH and his daughter. There are so many things that are magnified in marriage; the abuse of our pasts, the grief in our hearts over loss (we lost a child last year stillbirth; 5 months, son, Matthew) and I know that God has allowed these things and that marriage really is to help make us holy and not necessarily happy all the time.

Praying for truth, wisdom, healing and peace for your situation. It is possible, it is just not easy.