Stella, I do understand what you're saying about her H taking the information she's giving him and pushing himself away with it. That's the problem trying to work with someone when you're both in State of Conflict. That's where LA's approach helps me, to step back from the conflict and go to Listen and Repeat, observer mode. It's hard to make that choice in attitude on your own. You have to think really hard about choosing what you want. I was glad I havd this place to come to to help me reset, to get back to that observer perspective. But there's something chemical I think about being physically in a place with someone hostile against you that makes it SO hard. I had to get peace outside the house, like at chruch, at bible study, in meetings, exercise, meeting friends, and so on.

Jayne, what do you think? Are you getting to peaceful observer mode in the house? You've shared your O&H with your H, and you've got to let go of his response instead of taking it as about you.

Also, you're contributung to the negative energy in the house, even though you're not trying to, with your frustration. It goes both ways, with you both angry at the other.

Your H may well continue to dissappoint the kids for some time. They can handle that better if you show them what to do with that, to share their O&H, which I think they did, right?, and then go on to meeting their own needs, lke Stella is showing you. You don't have to give this broken promise behavior this power in your life. Like LA quotes, you are perfectly made, whole and complete. You can do this, hon!

"Most of the time I'm not hounding him. As a matter of fact, I've been somewhat in withdrawal."

Jayne, jaynie, jayni honey!!!!!

1. Hounding him
2. Withdrawal

Why are these the ONLY two choices open to you? My honey, there are at least 1000 other good choices here, why are you focused on only these two?

(I am this way too, i understand and want you to see this)

Why does it have to be either:

1. Drama and hounding him

OR

2. Withdrawal.

There was a time i felt if i was not perfect, i was nothing. Either/or. I still feel this way sometimes.

Perfect?......... "NO"

Then NOTHING!!!!WORTHLESS! TERRIBLE! "YES"


You are stuck in black and white thinking.

Ears, you say her husband is hostile much of the time and angrya and fights. Is this true Jayne????

Is he a SOB that you need to leave? Or do you both fight.

I don't know what this would look like at this point. I'm thinking it would mean waiting for some sort of cooling off period, leaving him alone, and then.... what? Cus that's what I was trying to do this morning. Either I didn't wait long enough, or I should just never have brought it up again, ever, and we'll go the rest of our lives never dealing with the underlying issue. Or... how could I have brought it up any nicer, and how much longer should I have waited?

Back to thinking I should just go dark.


You're right. And I don't know why. No it isn't helping.

Again, back to going dark.

"And I don't know why."


This is a real key! You realized this! YAY! We need to help you figure out WHY?!!!! Or:

You need to figure out WHY! I know you can do this!

Jayne, did someone you loved and trusted.... "lie" to you at some time in your life?

Did someone you loved and trusted "promise" something to you and then did not follow thru with that promise????

Well, because it seems to me that nothing god can come out of attempting to communicate right now, so a cooling off period is needed. And I have no idea how long he would need. Apparently this morning was too soon, and now the cooling off clock has been set back to zero or worse.

And even if I knew when had been long enough, I don't see what I could do to approach this same issue in a way that would allow for anything other than a repeat.

I have communicated to him my need to talk things over. I've done it verbally, nicely, I've done it in MC, I've done it in email, I've done it in a hardcopy letter. I apparently need a different approach. What's left?

OK, lets look at your need to "talk things over" first.

What issue do you want to talk over with him. We have to go back to the beginning here. First.

Describe "the issue" in two sentences please....

My mom. Continuously. I don't think she even knows the difference between lying and telling the truth, she just says whatever comes out of her mouth.

So that's why it's the biggest LB for me. Does that mean I should suck it up and accept a M like that?

I need much more two-way communication. I wish H would listen and take into consideration the things that I say and not just dismiss them as wrong, stupid or irrelevant, and have a two-way conversation.

Jayne, I reread your letter as a Plan B letter, and while I think it has a lot of relevant information there, I don't think think it's a REAL Plan B letter, and I think that would be really healing for you to write, for yourself, to clarify for you what you want, even if you then decide not to give the letter to him or to go dark yet. I looked in the Plan A/B forum, and there's a Plan B post near the top with SAA's Plan B letter.

Here's Dr. Harley's article on Plan A/B when there's no infidelity.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html

It suggests ADs, are you on one effective for you already? I don't know if the timing is right, being in the middle of a move, and the risk of making decisions from fear instead of peace. What do you think about calling the Harleys for guidance?

A lower-risk plan I've used when I'm in despair and needed to protect myself has been a 180. Al Turtle's "What to do when he/she leaves" is the simplest version I've seen:
http://al.turtlecounseling.com/blog/_archives/2005/3/8/410458.html

ETA: jayne, I understand how hard it is when you've been lied to so much already as a kid. This is the hand they were dealt, not of their own choosing. The denial of continually believing someone who can be trusted to lie to them is cruel. You can model how to share O&H and set boundaries. Basically, like you said, trust but verify. You can find a respectful way to communicate that this is their Dad's idea, not something that he checked out. Unless he said he verified it already. That's the hand they were dealt. I have that problem myself, finding my guesses don't match reality. So I say, guys, I think it'll be open tomorrow. How do you feel about chancing it?

"My mom. Continuously. I don't think she even knows the difference between lying and telling the truth, she just says whatever comes out of her mouth.

So that's why it's the biggest LB for me. Does that mean I should suck it up and accept a M like that? "

This is very interesting. And your brain is so fast and good that it make the leap, the comparison, between your childhood with your mom and you accidental dissapointments with your husband.

*Your mind is comparing the two even though they are not comparable.

Lets look at the facts here:

1. NO you dont have to have a marriage with a liar of a person like your mother.

2. Your husband is no liar as far as I can tell.


I believe your mind is JUMPING to the conclusion that your husband is a liar like your mom was! In any accidental dissapointment like the "sparkler incident" it would be easy for your mind to JUMP and place your husband in the same boat as your liar mother! EVEN IF IT IS NOT TRUE! (My mind would do the same thing. )

Your husband may have problems and not have your priorities, and make mistakes sometimes, but that does not make him a liar like your mother was.

You are hounding your husband for the dissapointments you experianced from your own mother, a woman you loved and trusted, and she lied and dissapointed you constantly!

You are beating and hounding your husband for your mothers SINS!

(Because there are some similarities in behavior between your mom and your husband it triggers your inner anger issues!)

But your husband is no liar, and does not deserve this hounding by you. You should HOUND your liar of a mother instead!!! Is she still alive????

Well. Ok. Wow.

<I can't stop the tears from streaming down. Now what?>

"I need much more two-way communication. I wish H would listen and take into consideration the things that I say and not just dismiss them as wrong, stupid or irrelevant, and have a two-way conversation"

So, as I see it, you want to talk about with your husband issues regarding communication. Right?

You want to COMMUNICATE with your husband your need for MORE COMMUNICATION! Is this right?

*You need two way communication.....Please describe in detail what TWO WAY COMMUNICATION would look like to you. What things would you say and he say in this two way communication.?

* Does he not listen to you and instead dismis the things you say as wrong, stupid, or irrelevent? Please cite some examples so I can grasp what you mean here.....?

Jayne, remember me and EARS love you right now! This is the only reason I want you to have this painful breakthru is to help you and your marriage and your life!!!!

You can learn to separate out what is the "liar of a mother tapes in your head" from the "this is my husband and it seems like he is similar in some ways to mom" tapes.

YOU can learn to separate from your past pain and dissapointment and calm down your extra "need for control" in the PRESENT.

(You were extremely hurt because the small child Jayne was lied to and years of promises broken by her mother, a woman she loved and trusted...)

You need "extra" control in life NOW, because the (real SOB) mother who raised you put your life totally out of control and did not protect you!!!!

* I will kick her butt myself, tell me where she is!!!!

Jayne,

I just want to tell you I am here.
Please listen to Stella and co.
We all love you.

{{{Jayne}}}

Thanks ears. With the move and everything else thats going on, what I meant about going into Plan B would basically just mean emotional withdrawal, not physically separating. The bit that I have been doing, felt good cus I wasn't being hurt as much if I didn't care emotionally.


Yes to the ADs. No the timing is not good. Calling the Harley's... I feel kinda silly, this isn't infidelity, it isn't abuse (well, maybe, there have been minor incidents...)...


Thanks! I've been trying to find a simple description of the 180! I'll go read...

Is your mother alive, I want to kick her butt!! She caused you pain.

WE wont get to the fact you may have picked your husband out as a mate due to the traits your own liar mother had. We dont yet know if he is a liar like your mom or just has some of the appearance of lying sometimes.

You have been damaged by that liar mother. You are looking at things from that point of view. Therefore, you cannot see your husband clearly yet, Until you get healing from the mother's damage to your self.

jayne, I edited my post on the last page to add this, not sure you saw it.

I understand how hard it is when you've been lied to so much already as a kid. This is the hand they were dealt, not of their own choosing. The denial of continually believing guesses as fact is cruel. You can model how to share O&H and set boundaries. Basically, like you said, trust but verify. You can find a respectful way to communicate that this is their Dad's idea, not something that he checked out. Unless he said he verified it already. That's the hand they were dealt.

I have that problem myself, finding my guesses don't match reality. I've discussed this in my thread, making promises that I can't follow through on creates a huge injury to H and the kids. Doesn't make me a bad person, just means I need to be more clear. Just because I'm comfortable putting something off until later doesn't mean I should make that decision without their input. So I say, guys, I'm not sure, but I'd think it'd be open tomorrow. How do you feel about chancing it?