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Hu,

I'm going to jump in here and add that extraordinary precautions are more than just being accountable for time. You need to protect yourself from your own weakness. Think of it as making every attempt to not ever put yourself in a position where you might be tempted.

My FWH used to remove his wedding ring and flirt with women when he traveled out of town. He would collect their phone numbers. I know now that he did this because he didn't feel secure in our relationship and it made him feel like he had some control over something. He had no intention of ever following up with any of them, but he was betraying me just the same and I would have been very hurt if I had known.

Eventually, he did become involved in a EA that eventually became a PA. We were well on our way to recovery when he again started the same old flirting. He simply did not understand that not only was his behavior betrayal, he simply could not allow himself to ever be put in a position to be tempted.

Understand this, HU, no BS wants to be the fidelity police, no BS wants their WS or FWS to want another person. It hurts, but it is just the way things are sometimes. We are ALL vulnerable to have affairs in the right (Wrong) circumstances. That is why it is our own responsibility to protect our own boundaries and establish strict rules for our own behavior that keeps us and our marriage safe.

The reason you are accountable to your wife is more about helping her feel more secure. Creating boundaries for your self is intended to keep you from being once again vulnerable to temptation.

Get it?

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I think you need to read up a little on Extraordinary Precautions. You going to the bar with a friend and putting yourself in the position to be hit on right now, given your current position, is not what I'd be doing right now....JMO.


"Rather than love, than money, than fame, give me truth"

Henry David Thoreau
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Oh I get the boundaries idea.

Helps that at work there are only 10 people and most of them are guys. The woman are way older and not what I am interested in. The fact I meet my OW at work is now not a problem here.

But again the only guarantee I know for a fact will work with me is that I am happy. I dated a girl for 6 years when I was in my 20's and I got hit on left and right, but never strayed because I was happy with her.

So I can setup boundaries to not talk to any female in a familure way, sure, and I do that. But that guarantees nothing.

I know enough about myself to know what triggers what. I am trying very hard (with my wife) to setup the circumstances that I know will make me not stray.

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Originally Posted by introvert
I think you need to read up a little on Extraordinary Precautions. You going to the bar with a friend and putting yourself in the position to be hit on right now, given your current position, is not what I'd be doing right now....JMO.

When you haven't seen your friend in over 6 years and he is divorced, you hang out with him. Matter of fact I have NEVER picked someone up in a bar. Most woman I have ever been involved with have been through friends or work.

Actually him telling me about his divorce and custody battle (a few months back) is what got to not pack up my stuff.

I know the one Extraordinary Precautions I can take that I know works and that is being happy. I know why I strayed and what triggers it. I am working on those issues now (with my wife) as I mentioned.

Last edited by hu7668; 07/16/08 02:10 PM.
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HU,

You do know that life isn't always going to be happy all of the time and when it isn't, it's not always going to be because of something your wife didn't get quite right.

Sadly, my impression here is that your happiness takes presidence over the happiness of anyone else including your wife and child. In marriage, and in life, you get what you give.

Oh, and by the way, happiness is a state of mind. If you tell yourself that you aren't happy with your wife, you're not ever going to be.

I wish your wife good luck, and for you, well I hope you wake up before you lose things that can never be regained.


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Originally Posted by hu7668
Originally Posted by introvert
I think you need to read up a little on Extraordinary Precautions. You going to the bar with a friend and putting yourself in the position to be hit on right now, given your current position, is not what I'd be doing right now....JMO.

When you haven't seen your friend in over 6 years and he is divorced, you hang out with him. Matter of fact I have NEVER picked someone up in a bar. Most woman I have ever been involved with have been through friends or work.

Actually him telling me about his divorce and custody battle (a few months back) is what got to not pack up my stuff.

I know the one Extraordinary Precautions I can take that I know works and that is being happy. I know why I strayed and what triggers it. I am working on those issues now (with my wife) as I mentioned.

Most people that have strayed usually have, as part of their EP's, a rule of thumb to not spend any time with "single" friends without their BS being present. Just so you know.


"Rather than love, than money, than fame, give me truth"

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Originally Posted by introvert
Most people that have strayed usually have, as part of their EP's, a rule of thumb to not spend any time with "single" friends without their BS being present. Just so you know.

Well he is in town only for this week and the fact I don't pick up chicks in bars wasn't a problem. Since you said "most" means there are exceptions to that rule.

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Do you think I am dumb and don't understand the EN concept?

I don't think your dumb. I think you are manipulative. Your INTERPRETATION of the EN concept may be very different than hers. I think you use them as a WEAPON. If she doesn't meet them, it is HER fault of you stray.

One of the goals is: NEVER TO BE THE CAUSE OF YOUR SPOUSE'S UNHAPPINESS

Have you caused her unhappiness? What can you do to make amends.

And before you go blaming her for what she has or has not done - you can only fix you. YOU be a better man/husband and you will reap the rewards.

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What I should question her answers? I guess that open and honest that is one of her big EN is not true? Because without real feeback there is no way to address your concerns now is there.

You should question them to get a COMPLETE understanding of what she is looking for. I have a feeling you do alot of assuming that everyone does or should see the world as you do.

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We discuss our issues in a calm manor.

Are issues RESOLVED in a calm manner? Does she have input or do you lay down the law and tell her how it is because you "provide the house, food, utilities, cars, etc."

Is she your equal or do you own her?


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If I come off defensive it for a reason.

Yes I feel like checking in I am a child and you know what does not sit well with me. You know what when you are the one supplying the house, food, utilities, cars, etc... feeling like you are watched like a child is a fine line to be on.

Matter of fact I was at a bar last night with a friend of mine. I was getting hit on and I laughed it off. Oh yes the wife knew I was there. Matter of fact I did not flirt back which is NOT what I normally would do.

I try to make sure my wife meets all of my needs. I have made myself a promise if I ever feel like I am not and I am looking outside of my marriage I'm divorcing before going the "easy" route again.

This is all purely entitlement. You DESERVED an A because things were going your way.

She SHOULD check on you - you have not EARNED trust.

You "TRY TO MAKE SURE MY WIFE MEETS ALL OF MY NEEDS". And how do you MAKE her do that?

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Well he is in town only for this week and the fact I don't pick up chicks in bars wasn't a problem.

Yet.

Ever heard of a one night stand?

And your "most" comment - is just another loophole that you are looking for so that you can say it doesn't apply to you.

You're not special. You're just like every other active wayward out there.




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Originally Posted by hu7668
Originally Posted by introvert
Most people that have strayed usually have, as part of their EP's, a rule of thumb to not spend any time with "single" friends without their BS being present. Just so you know.

Well he is in town only for this week and the fact I don't pick up chicks in bars wasn't a problem. Since you said "most" means there are exceptions to that rule.

Ya, most. The exceptions are usually people like you that feel they are doing enough by taking "precautions" without the "extraordinary" in front of it...people that are willing to take precautions, as along as the precautions don't interfere with going to the bar with their buddies when they know it's not good for their marriage.


"Rather than love, than money, than fame, give me truth"

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Originally Posted by wildhorses74
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Well he is in town only for this week and the fact I don't pick up chicks in bars wasn't a problem.

Yet.

Ever head of a one night stand?

And your "most" comment - is just another loophole that you are looking for so that you can say it doesn't apply to you.

You're not special. You're just like every other active wayward out there.

Touche


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Originally Posted by hu7668
When you haven't seen your friend in over 6 years and he is divorced, you hang out with him.

No, when you are married, you invite the divorced friend over for dinner or you and your wife take him out to dinner. That is what married people do. They put their marriage first and stop acting like they are single. You are a married man, remember?

There is absolutely no reason whatsoever for you to be going out and acting like a single man without your wife. Acting like a single man does nothing to restore her trust and does nothing to recover your marriage.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Considering how much I go to a bar that is funny. That is the first time in 8 years or more.

One night stands wow have had ONE of those in my life at 19. Not something I care to repeat.

Oh and as a FYI I treat my wife as an equal in our marriage. I do not make unilateral decisions on anything (accept the affair). Other then that we make joint decisions.

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The woman are way older and not what I am interested in.



Testosterone boys! Testosterone! It aint just for nose, ear and back hair anymore!
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Originally Posted by hu7668
Yes I feel like checking in I am a child and you know what does not sit well with me.

Not like a child, but like an untrustworthy person. Checking in is what untrustworthy people do when they WANT TO EARN TRUST.

They don't resent it, they are HAPPY to prove themselves. The only people who resent it are the ones WHO HAVE SOMETHING TO HIDE.

People who have nothing to hide, don't hide...


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Originally Posted by MelodyLane
No, when you are married, you invite the divorced friend over for dinner or you and your wife take him out to dinner. That is what married people do. They put their marriage first and stop acting like they are single. You are a married man, remember?

There is absolutely no reason whatsoever for you to be going out and acting like a single man without your wife. Acting like a single man does nothing to restore her trust and does nothing to recover your marriage.

Acting single how? Sitting there at the bar drinking with my friend is acting single. If she would've had a problem with it guess what I would not of gone.

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Originally Posted by chrisner
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The woman are way older and not what I am interested in.

Yeah, I wonder what happens if a "young" one shows up that he IS interested in.



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Hu,

Just gotta say, you get my vote for Most Tenacious on MB today. I honestly admire both you and Huspouse for posting here.

Would you say this stubborn streak has been both your blessing and curse in your life up until now?

Because of your posts, I got a good handle on why we have the ability to react defensively. My DH had this automatic reaction (you spoke about it in relation to aggression in another post/thread here), too. I believe everything in us has a beneficial purpose...and that one really eluded me, Hu. I mean, he could hear me attacking with a "hello".

laugh

Now I get it. I think you have the goods to recover mightily. Stunningly. I now it may not seem that way now...but I think your BW does, too. Because defensiveness blocks intimacy--we serve our own purposes when we see others' opinions, their stuff, as attacks on us. The beneficial part is as you have shown me here on MB, you take it to the middle ground, neither extreme, and you have sticking power...your logical mind wants to open a bit, stand your ground to be understood, without assumptions...so you stay present.

I really appreciate that very much for my marriage. My DH has that, too. Just like you.

I wanted to elaborate on the not happy criterion, though...and wondered if on the other thread that I posted to you, did I mention in having your ENs met that half of them being love deposits is on you? I thought I shared that I had wanted what I wanted, when I wanted it and in the way I wanted it...as cutting off my DH's ability to meet my ENs (which leads to justifying having them met elsewhere) as my old pattern.

Wanted to explore that further--because the main extraordinary precaution I put into place was to revoke my permission to react to my feelings (happy/not happy) and to act directly from my beliefs. That kind of healthy boundary...and to enforce it around myself--to stay present aware of my own stuff and to share it. Openness and Honesty (one of my top ENs)...means I gotta hold myself to acting that way.

I'm glad you've found a way to be O&H in emails, in writing as a step forward. I also suggest communication (verbal and nonverbal) for you and huspouse to do in this early stage of recovery (for about a year, though).

We have the ability to focus on lack when we're standing in abundance. In a couple of more months of withdrawal, would you consider doing a fresh review of where your thoughts dwelled pre-A? Where our thoughts dwell, there is our treasure. Seriously works that way. We can train our brains to "treasure" lack and expand it to be life-threatening...a step into the justifying, the fog.

Same for getting through withdrawal further for you now...please take these suggestions from MB folks...you've gotten clear on missing the feelings...my advice is to train your brain to not dwell on them as they were...each time you have an image, hear a sentence jump to mind, change it...the poster "introvert" has a great one for images, btw...and there are others. Mine was to catch it in the first ten seconds...again, committing to high awareness of my stuff in my own head...and if I did that, then I could tell my brain, "That's not what I want" and replace the image/sound/words with one of my DH, my kids, the image of myself feeling proud and true again to my word.

When I did this, the feelings began to flow again for my DH. I had to do this especially for the OW, who in the six month to about the 18th month consumed me. Whom I rent space to in my own mind is all mine. Blocks the falling in love feelings from DH meeting ENs and stopping LBs...can even seem he's not doing enough because I'm not feeling enough...

which is right back to where I was before, in a heartbeat. Still mine.

If you choose to make happy the main criterion for your choices, I believe you will experience a very unhappy life. I say this because happy got you a ton of pain, and that pain was passed around in incredible amounts...when you really come out of withdrawal eventually, I think you'll see how indelible your actions were...and the amends do take a lifetime. Doing that to your self-respect and integrity demands amends, too...and there's no happy in that. So your BW can meet, exceed and blow the roof off your ENs and you may not be happy. Won't be on her, either...your choice of where your thoughts dwell, what takes your focus in a stubborn way, will. It will be what you treasure.

As for choosing to recover...please do. The other way has no redemption, no real growth, no matter how many books you may read...because when you look in your DD's eyes in five or ten years, I don't think you will be able to bear the shame. We learn we can have thriving, fulfilling marriages with anyone...when you know that and it's too late...by your choice or huspouses'...that unhappiness may crush you flat. Huspouse is real, she's your wife...she is giving you this one window of opportunity, even as she hates, rages, and hurts beyond words inside...please take it. You've got what it takes.

LA

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LovingAnyway thanks for the responses, yours and a few others really do hit home. Give me a lot to think about.

introvert, Melodylane, iam and Krazy71 do me a favor don't respond to my threads for awhile. Our ideas and styles clash greatly at this point and serve no purpose. I am not open to your ideas right now and you're styles make me want to fight tooth and nail, which again serves no purpose.


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Originally Posted by hu7668
If I come off defensive it for a reason.

Yes I feel like checking in I am a child and you know what does not sit well with me. You know what when you are the one supplying the house, food, utilities, cars, etc... feeling like you are watched like a child is a fine line to be on.

Matter of fact I was at a bar last night with a friend of mine. I was getting hit on and I laughed it off. Oh yes the wife knew I was there. Matter of fact I did not flirt back which is NOT what I normally would do.

I try to make sure my wife meets all of my needs. I have made myself a promise if I ever feel like I am not and I am looking outside of my marriage I'm divorcing before going the "easy" route again.

Here is the deal.

I think you need to change your mindset. You are a relationship criminal, period.

What you did may not be illegal in the sense of the law. But it broke the laws of how to conduct a good relationship.

There is only one judge at this point, and that person is your wife. She didn't want to be in that place. You forced her into that position by betraying her trust.

So now, she also has to be your parole officer. You have to check in with her. You have to be accountable to her, etc.

She didn't do this to you. You did this to yourself by choosing to be untrustworthy.

So you resent being on parole right now.

Big deal.

This likely pales in comparison to the resentment your wife has for you putting her into this place.

There are two ways to get off parole. You can run (divorce, or encourage her to divorce you.) Or you can earn her trust so she doesn't feel she has to check on you.

You have NO ONE to blame but yourself for where you find yourself.

Your resentment will do NOTHING to repair your marriage.

When you find yourself resentful, practice this particular way of thinking. I did this to myself, and I am grateful my wife is giving me another chance, no matter how difficult it may be right now.

And then put your focus on how you plan to LOVE your wife, instead of resenting her for doing what you couldn't do for yourself, which is to hold yourself accountable to what you vowed.

Earn the trust, or bail out. Those are the only two ways to get off parole.

Resentment, pride, and any other combative ways of thinking will do you no good.

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