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My biggest frustration is the lack of progress she has made. She told me last night that she was "here, aren't I". Well whoop de doo. She is still so fogged out she may be lost at sea with no way home. 72dude, Rain is a frustrating WW to interact with on an anonymous internet forum ... I can only imagine what its like to deal with her in such a "personal" capacity. Seriously, I think you've been advised on numerous occassions that this situation may not be salvageable, and at this point ... I concur. Think about cutting your losses and preserving your future sanity ... NO ONE would begrudge you those actions given her history and current state. Her quote above just screams of her lack of committment to anyone other than herself.
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My biggest frustration is the lack of progress she has made. She told me last night that she was "here, aren't I". Well whoop de doo. She is still so fogged out she may be lost at sea with no way home. 72dude, Rain is a frustrating WW to interact with on an anonymous internet forum ... I can only imagine what its like to deal with her in such a "personal" capacity. Seriously, I think you've been advised on numerous occassions that this situation may not be salvageable, and at this point ... I concur. Think about cutting your losses and preserving your future sanity ... NO ONE would begrudge you those actions given her history and current state. Her quote above just screams of her lack of committment to anyone other than herself. MyRevelation is right, Dude. It sounds like Rain has made very little (if any) progress. Without her on board, you are wasting energy on her. You cannot continue to try to get her on board...she has to decide to do this herself. IMO, you need to find a way to get a plan B in action (at the very least)...you will be fighting this losing battle for the rest of your life without moving on to a different plan. Sorry Dude...I feel for ya.
"Rather than love, than money, than fame, give me truth"
Henry David Thoreau
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I don't know if this is the best solution, but have you considered YOU and your son moving. Without rain?
She may need to be truly faced with losing you and her son to make her think clearly.
This is YOUR choice, too. Not just hers.
"I'm here, aren't I?" could be said by either one of you. She's not as safe as she may think.
You don't HAVE to stay with her just because she chooses not to lose her son. YOU have a choice, too. She loses if you decide to leave and take your son, too.
She needs to step up and help you CREATE a good marriage, not just stay because she doesn't want to lose.
Maybe you need to draw a line in the sand because you and your son deserve more from her.
Your boundary may be that you only stay in a M that is good for you and your son. You are willing to do your part, but if she is not, you are not willing to stay.
You don't have to be willing to stay in an unhappy M.
YOU have choices.
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The problem is there is no "good" solution. They are all bad. Even her miraculously turning around and wanting to work things out are going to be difficult at this point. Worst case is me screwing up my DS, so whatever is the best for him right now is probably where I'm leaning. If it gets much more difficult for me to be civil or rational around her, I'll go see a lawyer.
If I move into my parents house until I get on my feet for a few months, which is an option, it is farther away from school and I will have to drive him 20 mins to school every morning and me or my mother will have to pick him up. WS parents work away from home for 3 weeks of every month, so they are no help most of the time.
I could get an apt. and take on $1500 worth of bills a month out of my own check, which is fine, but I still have to pay credit cards that are in my name that WW rang up. She has offered to pay them, but I can't count on that until we get a D and have it legal. Besides, her parents have threatened to throw her out of the house, so I can't really count on her paying these off.
It frustrates me to no end the financial shape we are in. We aren't really that bad to file bankruptcy anymore, but the position she has me in is very bad and it makes me even more bitter. All of my life is suffering right now, yet I am growing more mature and wise at the same time. What a trade off. I'd rather be young and dumb again.
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It might be wise to seek counsel. Just to protect yourself and DS future. She may be in the frame of mind right now that she would sign a legal separation, taking on all the gambling debt herself. I know none of the options are good. It's kind of the "best of the worst" options. If I move into my parents house until I get on my feet for a few months, which is an option, it is farther away from school and I will have to drive him 20 mins to school every morning and me or my mother will have to pick him up. I drive my DDs to school AT LEAST 20 minutes every day. It's sometimes a good thing. You can make it quality time that you have with just DS. Turn the radio off and talk. All of my life is suffering right now, yet I am growing more mature and wise at the same time. What a trade off. I'd rather be young and dumb again. What can you do to have moments of non-suffering. What brings you joy and feelings of peace? Even if for just a few moments of your day, do what brings you calmness. Know that it WILL get better. Your life will not always be in turmoil. Do what YOU can do about the problems and know that you can't solve everything. No one expects you to do so. Do the best you can and be content with yourself for that.
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I was just going to say what wildhorses74 said. If she will agree to take on the debt that she was nice enough to get you into, then seek a lawyer, and get it done. There has to be a way to do it.
"Rather than love, than money, than fame, give me truth"
Henry David Thoreau
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Then protect yourself financially from her. You are very vulnerable with her right now. She could chose to create additional financial problems for you.
Make small steps. Make a plan to protect yourself financially. Make a plan to get out of her parents house within a certain timeframe.
ME BH 40 - FWW 39
Sons - 9 and 7
DDAY - March 18,2006
Married 10 years
Recovering
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Just keep in mind that the divorce decree is non-binding to your creditors ... it just means that you have recourse against rain should she default and you have to pay on the joint accounts, but she is likely "judgment proof", so you are back to the same place you are now. YOU are still the responsible one for the joint debts.
It sucks, but you may as well make a fully informed decision.
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MyRev is right - it DOES suck that creditors don't have to follow the divorce decree.
However, RAIN, doesn't know that.
Unless, of course, she reads your thread.
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I've read your wife's posts and I agree, she is a hard case, but not completely lost. She texted me all weekend that she missed me, etc. but it just didn't feel right when she came home, I can't explain it. It was weird for me too when my husband first came home. It was almost as if we were getting reacquainted... cautiously. There's a saying around here... feelings follow actions. My biggest frustration at the moment is with myself. My expectations after the talks and messages from this weekend were very high when she returned, and I went out of my way to make it a pleasant evening. All she did was give me a small hug. After a few hours of disappointment, I brought up the R talk which ended not so pleasantly as you could probably tell. This was a hard one for me as well. My expectations of recovery were EXCEEDINGLY high. I expected the love and all that goes with that to return almost immediately. I didn't know about MB until later on when I learned about this withdrawl stuff. It's true. I could actually see "my husband" returning to me slowly, slowly, slowly. Ugh. The first things she wanted to talk about after being away for 3 days is who I have talked to and what did I say. She seems obsessed with keeping all of it hidden.
She is still pretty mad that her parents know about this. Her mother corners me incessantly and asks me questions, and I try to be honestly vague. I don't want to lie, but I get tired of being in the middle of all of them. Any suggestions on handling this. Of course WW doesn't want anyone to know what she's done, and her M wants to know everything and I just want it to go away. Whenever she rails me with questions, she then proceeds to go off on WW, which makes living with WW that much more miserable. Remember, we live with them, so it's not so easy to avoid it - The only caveat being they are only here about one week of the month due to their professions. I feel there should be a diplomatic way other than just telling them all to go away and leave me alone, but I am to that point. It makes getting out of here look good to me despite the drawbacks. Ugh. Living with the inlaws is a double whammy. Although they are probably concerned, they probably feel as if you guys living there gives them a certain "right" to nose around uninvited. (I KNOW this because I'm a MIL and have been guilty of the same!) Now that you exposed to them, they may feel entitled to keep up with every detail. It's up to you to put your foot down as the man of your marriage. You can say something like, "MIL, I know you are concerned about us and love us and I appreciate your support and ALL that you've done for us. But we're at a point right now, where we need to work this out between ourselves. Please give us a little time to work through this. I'll come to you if I need more help because I know you'll be there." She told me last night that she was "here, aren't I". EXACT SAME WORDS spoken by my FWH. He has since backed down on that stance, but it took awhile. I guess what I'm saying that non of this is not a quick-fix deal and it's not for the feint of heart. If you're prepared to stay for the long-haul, it won't be easy AT ALL. You guys also have the added financial stress and I can understand your resentment there. But what do you do? Hang on to that or figure out how to fix this? I don't anyone would blame you if you divorced right now. Guess you just have to figure out if staying and taking the chance that it CAN be good is worth it. Cause even then, sometimes with the best efforts, it never works out.
Widowed 11/10/12 after 35 years of marriage ********************* “In a sense now, I am homeless. For the home, the place of refuge, solitude, love-where my husband lived-no longer exists.” Joyce Carolyn Oates, A Widow's Story
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Dude, have you ever checked out daveramsey.com? My DH and I read his Total Money Makeover a few years ago and we are totally out of debt, have six month's expenses in the bank and will have our house paid off in five years. It is a great program. Debt is like an anvil around your neck. It will drag any marriage down and the shame of your debt for Rain nust be devastating.
God's Blessings,
Say
Me, BW-57 FWH 54 4 kids and 4 grandbabies between us In recovery since D-day, May 28,2007 FWH never onboard the MB boat but still clinging to the side. One day at a time by God's grace.
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"Quote:She told me last night that she was "here, aren't I".
EXACT SAME WORDS spoken by my FWH."
Mine too. Exact words.
Recovered marriage, recovering self, life gets better everyday
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Posted by MelodyLane in another thread: 1. How often (percentage-wise) do As end? Is 97% correct?
Dr. Harley: My experience, and the experience of other professionals is that about 95% of all affairs either end by one person deciding to end it, or that it dies a natural death. Of the five percent that end in marriage, about 70% of those end in divorce. There are a host of reasons that romantic relationships that start with an affair are so fragile, but the main reason is that they are based on deceit, thoughtlessness, and dishonesty. Those characteristics eventually find themselves permeating the affair itself. They eventually find themselves being deceitful, thoughtless, and dishonest toward each other.
And how will the kiddies fare if the marriage is abandoned in favor of an affair?:
An Exploration of the Ramifications of Divorce on Children and Adolescents -The Pennsylvania State University College of Medicine
• Divorce is an intensely stressful experience for all children, regardless of age or developmental level; many children are inadequately prepared for the impending divorce by their parents. A study in 1980 found that less than 10% of children had support from adults other than relatives during the acute phase of the divorce.
• The pain experienced by children at the beginning of a divorce is composed of: a sense of vulnerability as the family disintegrates, a grief reaction to the loss of the intact family (many children do not realize their parents’ marriage is troubled), loss of the non-custodial parent, a feeling of intense anger as the disruption of the family, and strong feelings of powerlessness.
• Unlike bereavement or other stressful events, it is almost unique to divorcing families that as children experience the onset of this life change, usual and customary support systems tend to dissolve, though the ignorance or unwillingness of adults to actively seek out this support for children.
• Early latency (ages 6½-8): These children will often openly grieve for the departed parent. There is a noted preoccupation with fantasies that distinguishes the reactions of this age group. Children have replacement fantasies, or fantasies that their parents will happily reunite in the not-so-distant future. Children in this developmental stage have an especially difficult time with the concept of the permanence of the divorce.
• Late latency (ages 8-11): Anger and a feeling of powerlessness are the predominate emotional response in this age group. Like the other developmental stages, these children experience a grief reaction to the loss of their previously intact family. There is a greater tendency to label a ‘good’ parent and a ‘bad’ parent and these children are very susceptible to attempting to take care of a parent at the expense of their own needs.
• Adolescence (ages 12-18): Adolescents are prone to responding to their parent’s divorce with acute depression, suicidal ideation, and sometimes violent acting out episodes. These children tend to focus on the moral issues surrounding divorce and will often judge their parents’ decisions and actions. Many adolescents become anxious and fearful about their own future love and marital relationships. However, this age group has the capability to perceive integrity in the post-divorce relationship of their parents and to show compassion for their parents without neglecting their own needs.
Conclusions • Divorce and its ensuing ramifications can have a significant and life-altering impact on the well being and subsequent development of children and adolescents.
• The consequences of divorce impact almost all aspects of a child’s life, including the parent-child relationship, emotions and behavior, psychological development, and coping skills.
• There is a significant need for child mental health professionals, along with other child specialists, to be cognizant of the broad spectrum of possible fall-out from a divorce and then to provide sufficient support for children of divorced parents in all the necessary psychosocial aspects of the child’s life.
Abuse Risk Seen Worse As Families Change
- Children living in households with unrelated adults are nearly 50 times as likely to die of inflicted injuries as children living with two biological parents, according to a study of Missouri abuse reports published in the journal of the American Academy of Pediatrics in 2005.
- Children living in stepfamilies or with single parents are at higher risk of physical or sexual assault than children living with two biological or adoptive parents, according to several studies co-authored by David Finkelhor, director of the University of New Hampshire's Crimes Against Children Research Center.
- Girls whose parents divorce are at significantly higher risk of sexual assault, whether they live with their mother or their father, according to research by Robin Wilson, a family law professor at Washington and Lee University. . . .
- The previous version of the study, released in 1996, concluded that children of single parents had a 77 percent greater risk of being harmed by physical abuse than children living with both parents. But the new version will delve much deeper into the specifics of family structure and cohabitation, according to project director Andrea Sedlak. Maybe this is something you can share with Rain.....or leave lying around for her to pick up at her leisure. Fox
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Dude,
The two of you really aren't that far into this. I don't want that to discourage you, instead, I hope it tells you that your M is still able to recover.
As far as your IL's are concerned; I told our parents that I loved my W and that I need their support. And that meant for them to love her and respect what I was trying to accomplish. I asked them to think about what they said when they talked to her and to ask themselves if what they say is going to put more pressure on the situation or relieve pressure?
Dave Ramsey is a very good financial resource as is Ron Blue and Larry Burkett.
I know it's hard to see hope when you get people that are telling you to give up. But my question to you is this' "Did you come here ot same your M or to get a D? If you came to save the M then listen to the people that are giving you information to save it. I am not and very few here are into saving a M "at all costs". But there are some here that knows that most WS do not come out of the fog immediately and need some help.
Yes it's a good idea to find ways that protect your finances, that is always smart and you should do that whether or not you recover or get a D.
Your DS will learn a lot about M and its importance, from how you handle this situation. The harder he sees you fight, the more he will see that it is not something you just throw away when things get tough. If you keep your boundaries, he will also see that a spouse shouldn't be a doormat to be walked on. Continuing to work on a M hit with infidelity doesn't not equate to being a wuss.
Most people have more strength than they realize at first. You've got some good people in your corner (your's and rain's).
BTW - My wife also said "I'm here aren't I?"
Blessings.
S&C
No man likes to have his intelligence or good faith questioned, especially if he has doubts about it himself. - Henry Brooks Adams
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Thanks for the encouragement, I defenitely need it.
I'm starting to get more and more angry about this, and it is getting harder to keep up the great attitude. I tried to tell her a couple of nights ago that I needed her to try and meet some of my needs so that I can recuperate. I told her I couldn't do this anymore under the current circumstances. She held my hand that night for about 5 mins and that was it. I am way too emotionally attached to every little thing that is said or done by her and she doesn't realize much of anything I'm going through right now.
She wanted specific instances of EN's. I told her to act lovingly towards me, affection/admiration/SF, my top 3 needs. She wanted specifics to this even. When she reaches out and pursues me a bit, it makes me forget reality. A few touches, a kiss, a few kind words that are heartfelt, much less a full blown SF session would do me a lot of good right now. It's really hard being lonely, resentful, angry and happy at the same time without any needs getting met. Should I be wallowing in these emotions? I try not to, but they still get the best of me. It's like a roller coaster. I can't really talk to her about it without getting angry because she acts uncapable of fullfilling them in her current state. It's hard to heal and recover when you won't at least treat the wounds.
Just in the span of an hour I can feel happy, hopeless, sad, frustrated and back to moderate again in no time. I don't think she understands my mood swings and I wish I didn't have them. I only hope this is a part of the process and not something permanent.
I feel my plan A is failing or at least is harboring on feeling ill will towards her at times - not a good premise for plan A. I think if she tried harder to meet some of my needs, was apologetic instead of withdrawn and brooding, and gave me some hope of reconciling it would be easier to mount a good offense. Instead, I am constantly on the fence. I want to reconcile our marriage, but I don't want to jump in all the way without some visual, fact based reassurance from her that SHE can do it with me. I feel I deserve that much.
I am also resentful that she didn't do the NC letter. I don't think they have had contact, but it makes me feel that she doesn't want to completely cut him off as a hedge bet. I feel if she can figure out a way to amicably split with me, she will go right back and the letter would jeopardize that plan. That's just me thinking though, and not something she said (possible disrespectful judgement or just reality?). Mabye I'm right or wrong, but the fact remains she won't do it. I can understand both sides of the coin, but it makes me sad that she won't go very far to hurt their relationship to make me feel better. Shows you where priorities are and are not, regardless of stance on the matter.
I understand that she has her own wounds to heal. She has lost her fantasy lover, feels like a terrible person, lives with her mistakes every day, etc. It just doesn't make sense to me to not try 100% at this. I am willing to go this far, but how far can I go without her joining me in the process? I am fulfilling some of her needs, but probably not her top 2 either. She says she appreciates my efforts, but the actions aren't there yet from her. Her top 2 are affection and recreational companionship. Not 2 things you necessarily want to do with a WW and when you are low on funds. I will post again about us arguing over the needs questionnaire. I just think it would be better to assess these when she is not so "in the fog".
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Dude, The withdrawal period sucks. I found that my W didn't accept many of the things I did during Plan A as long as she was in withdrawal. So I just did a few things that didn't take a lot of energy out of me. I called them "commando raids" Quick and over before she knew what it was, yet seemed rather effective. A little peck on the back of the neck as I passed behind her (nothing sexual). When she came home I asked her how her day was. I found out that the first four minutes after she got home, set the tone for most of the evening. As far as having to tell her what you need; go ahead and be detailed about it. I asked my W specifically what she needed me to do. Her response was "If I have to tell you then it won't be your idea and therefore it will mean less when you do it." I told her "If I'm not doing it now, it has never been my idea and I want to change that. But I have to know what you want before I can change it." I told her I was clueless and needed her help. rain may very well be there too! So what if you have to give details about what you need from her. If she doesn't know right now then she surely isn't going to figure it out on her own. She needs something to start with and to be able to compare with when she does begin to meet your needs with her own ideas. Sort of like priming the pump. And don't be afraid to ask her the details of how to fulfill her EN's. Just to get you started. She might not give them while in withdrawal, but she will. This is NOT PERMANENT! It's really hard being lonely, resentful, angry and happy at the same time without any needs getting met. Should I be wallowing in these emotions? I try not to, but they still get the best of me. It's like a roller coaster. That's why they call it a roller coaster ride. This too gets better. BTW - Anger is normal. Just do your best to control your actions when you are angry. Sometimes it feeds off itself and is counter productive. But when used as a motivator, is quite productive. My W did three NC "Contacts" over a period of a year and a half. The last one was finally a letter. She meant it then. But I've said it in the past, I would rather she not do a NC letter and have it be over with than for her to write one and not mean it. So if you believe that NC is being maintained then the goal is met. I am way too emotionally attached to every little thing that is said or done by her and she doesn't realize much of anything I'm going through right now. Yeah, I read something into nearly everything my W said and did. Everything had to do with the A. That starts to wain after a while. New memories will fill your brain and you will think about it less. Hope this helps. Your doing well Dude. Ok that I continue to pray for you two? Blessings. S&C
No man likes to have his intelligence or good faith questioned, especially if he has doubts about it himself. - Henry Brooks Adams
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Please continue. All of the feedback I'm getting has been tremendous and helpful. I'm astonished in this day and age that there are still people who will take the time to do this for some stranger. It's truly a blessing, regardless of my outcome. I genuinely appreciate it.
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I'm a big proponent of shaking things up; getting out of ruts. Can you spend some time thinking outside the box? Put a little extra effort into finding new things to do - for yourself and with her, just look for more out of life, if that makes sense. If nothing else, it gets your mind out of the downward spiral it's in.
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dude,
Just wanted to let you know that I am still here, supporting you and rain.
I have not had to personally experience a wayward in withdrawal so I don't feel I can advise you on it.
Know that there are many of us out here thinking about and praying for your family.
Remember to take moments to breathe. This is a marathon not a sprint. Find a few calming moments each day just for you.
Fox
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Dude,
Your wife is doing a very good job deceiving herself right now. She is going through withdrawal and a few other things and will likely be in this spot for some time.
For your marriage to recover it is going to take time. The good thing about counseling is that is can unwind all of these emotional knots. The bad, is it takes alot of time.
I believe in counseling. But, if we all waited for these complicated things to get fixed we could be who knows how old. I believe understanding is one thing and believe taking action is another.
Have you ever had a fear of something? Have you ever been around someone who has a fear of water. They could spend years understanding there fear and still never walk up to the edge of a pool and jump in.
So, why not focus on taking action. Why don't you really work on yourself and start acting on some of your goals.
Maybe the sooner you start making progress on yourself and getting some of what you really want the more energy you will have to tackle the rest of it.
ME BH 40 - FWW 39
Sons - 9 and 7
DDAY - March 18,2006
Married 10 years
Recovering
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