I'm not sure that I agree with my post after re-reading it. I'll leave it there, but I'm doubting my thoughts there.

I think you do need to really THINK about whether or not you want to fight for this M. Some of it hinges on WW's actions from now on, but inevitably, it is YOUR choice and she should know that.

HTM

HTM,
I think her "partying" behavior may lend to the observation that she potentially had some ONS as well. She is addicted to the attention and the high that she gets from this behavior.

IMO, she's not the classic cheated once, didn't get caught, cheated twice, got caught, kinda gal.

She's been using sex to get what she wants all her life. Sad, but true.

And I'm not sure I agree with you that she will "never again go near Infidelity". None of her actions have shown remorse, none of her actions have shown retribution for SWW.

I don't think SWW is even in first gear with R with this woman.

Again, just my opinion.

Yeah, I left that post but don't feel conviction for it.

I agree that I don't think she is anywhere close to not going near infidelity again...I just mean that IF her actions move into recovery, she may be able to beat this thing.

I think you are probably right about the sex thing. She does seem to have a need for attention that she meets outside of her M. What does ONS stand for?

One Night Stand

T/J

Crazy idea SWW...my H and I have an appointment with the Harley's tomorrow night and I am thinking he will probably come up with an excuse to have to work. I'm sure you outrank him...could you ORDER him to be there? I know, I know...he needs to find his own pair of cahones and face what he did. Just a thought...

HTM

hicktownmommy,

tell him that's a lawful order.

I think...

I have more to post tomorrow. Spent a lot of the day on phone with WW and job head hunters.

Good to hear that communication is going on. That's usually a good sign. It will be hard and there will be ups and downs (that's why they call this a roller-coaster) but if you and your WW are willing, it is amazing what you can overcome.

I "reminded" H of the appointment tomorrow. He didn't confirm an appearance, but there are consequences to every action and I am confident that he will make a good choice (do I sound like an elementary school teacher?).

HTM

Well, good news and bad.

The good is that WW told me yesterday that the whole time she was talking to ex BF was as a result of her and a couple of others trying to talk him into entering rehab. She said half the calls were to his wife, that is why there were so many to the house at night during the week. I called BS. She said "is there a sudden dropoff around 15 January?" I said "yeah." She said that's when he finally agreed to go into rehab for 2 weeks. And that's why there are no more calls except for a couple a month after that. I told her I didn't appreciate her spending 30-40 hours a month on the phone with her ex BF of 20 years ago and not telling me. She said she was sorry, she agreed, it was not right. I let it drop, but feel this is an issue that really needs to be explored further, her hiding things like this from me.

I was still calling BS on the whole thing though to myself, until....OM's wife called me and confirmed, from their home phone. She did not know I didn't know.

The other good is that my headhunter friend got me an interview at home for the number three job, Exec VP operations for an international company. Better salary and bennies than I make now, and at home. You would think i am on cloud nine right?

WW calls this morning and asks if I have heard from headhunter friend. I tell her good news.

WW: Well that's great news, I hope it works out for you.

ME: Yeah it is a great possibility, It would be good to get back home.

WW: Well, we'll see...

ME: You sound kind of unsure about the whole thing.

WW: It's just too early, and you are acting like everything is all hunky dorry and it's NOT!

ME: Is there something wrong? You sound a little cranky.

WW: No I'm not cranky, I just don't know how I feel about this, so don't start expecting me to do handsprings just because you may be coming home, I still haven't decided yet what I want to do, OK, so...look I've got to go. Click.

Well I tried to be as nice as I could. Is she just a bi*ch and doesn't want me back, or is she going thru withdrawals, is still mad at me because I took away her candy? Is she mad because I am being nice and things are looking better and that makes her possibly have to look in the mirror?

I haven't gotten D papers yet and I am heading home this afternoon, she is not excited about me staying at home. I said I understand, but that's the best thing for now, so let's try to make thebest of it. She is PO'd.

WITHDRAWLS!!! That's what you are feeling from her. She's going through withdrawls and it doesn't feel good and you are the easiest target to blame because you "took it away" from her.

She's still possessed by aliens...very foggy...and everything she says is coming from that other place. Be careful. It is easy to let wayward fog babble bait you into a big fight. Don't do it. She WILL come out of it.

There are a lot of threads about fog babble. You might want to read up on a bit of it. The basic idea is that your WW is going to rewrite your marriage history to make you the bad guy, she is going to blame you for her trouble now, she is going to justify all of her current/past actions, she is going to avoid really "owning" any of the responsibility for the A. She will try to push you to meet HER requirements, but really, YOU need to push to keep it a M. She is going to threaten with the idea that SHE is unsure, SHE doesn't want you there, SHE needs her space. You need to be strong and TELL her that you are in this M. Do what a H should be doing...stay in YOUR house, sleep in YOUR bed. If she is uncomfortable with that, then let her know that you would like her to stay but you understand if she would feel more comfortable at a friends...or on the couch. INSIST on your place in this marriage.

Sounds like before might make sense. Is there any way you could do some more checking (i.e. talk with old boyfriend?)?

hicktownmommy,

I have read the threads about the fogbabble. That is why I asked, bc it sounds like exactly that. She has already re-written our marriage and history and I was a horrible husband that abandoned her and the kids etc. etc. etc. and has told me upfront she doesn't feel guilty about the A and doesn't see why she should. In her "mind" we were "already divorced." She has these glimpses where she seems to feel remorse and gets teary and apologizes, then it's right back to anger and resentfulness and saying things that really hurt me.

I am amazed any of us BS's have the strength to do this, and I sometimes question my reasons for doing it. She is such a BI*CH right now with these intervals of sweetness interspersed. And yes, it is ALL ABOUT HER!

Yeah I am going to call ex BF next week when he won't expect it so much and ask him very directly and quickly why in the world he spent 5 months talking to my wife without telling me and does he feel that's appropriate behaviour towards an old fratenity brother.

I am still busted up about the fogbabble though. It really is hurtful. Really, as I am sure you all know all too well.

I think that we stay because there is a hope that we can have our M back. I think that we are stronger than the WS in most cases...thus our ability to stick it out. I also wonder if we aren't a bit crazy...

The things that MY FWH said and did to me are reproachable and yet I know that I would have left a long time ago if I was going to leave. That is really the only time that I can find the anger...is when I think of the evil things that he said to me and expected of me.

You just need to keep thinking about the W that you married and fight for that person.

Isn't it crazy that your Affair Book is reading just like all the other Affairs out there? Fog, Withdrawal, etc. Yuck!

But the good news is that Dr. Harley has done alot of work for us and prepared a plan for us to follow in order to recover our M and have a better one in the end.

Stay the course! You are doing great!!!

First of all, NEVER EVER ask a woman why she is CRANKY!

Good gravy

Might as well have asked her why she was bitc*y.

Your WW is PO that you called OM and ended her A.

That's a no brainer.

Expect it!

Now, your mission is to have some fun w/ your WW. Take her out.

Wooo her.

Excercise your seduction muscle. You know, the one you put away, and haven't used in years.

Treat her as a woman/lady wants to be treated.

And put your taker a way...for now.

Congrats on the new job!

Now call Dr, Harley today! Set up an appointment!

Today!!!!

Have you read up on love busters?

You need to know what they are so you will stop them.

Telling your WW she seemed CRANKY is one, just in case you didn't know.

They are the thing that will empty out her love bank for you faster than anything else will.

You should have said, "You are my wife, and I belong w/ you....in MY home and in MY bed." and then followed up w/ a drive by "I love you, baby!"

Hi SWW,

I haven’t posted to you in a few days, but I’m still following along.

I need to provide a caveat before I begin my post, however. Mr. Z and I are just starting recovery, so everything I’m telling you is from the FWW perspective and I’m not qualified to give advice. I can offer some insight into what she’s possibly going through though.

As W. Harley explains, there are reasons for infidelity, not excuses, but reasons. My own belief is that a pattern of behavior stems more from childhood experiences playing out into adulthood. In other words, there is a deeper issue than just the failing marriage itself.

When I was a young teenager, I was abused physically by my older brother on a daily basis, which eventually lead to a sexual assault. Before that horrible experience, I screamed for help every time he hit me, but my father ignored my cries and would usually yell at both of us for “acting up.” The messages I received from these experiences were: I’m not lovable, I’m not valid, and if I try to stand up for myself, I will be abandoned.

Again, I’m not making excuses for what I did in my marriage; in fact, it wasn’t until I took responsibility for it that I was able to start gaining more insight. I am wondering if your WW has had similar trauma growing up.

Because I understand my own weaknesses so much more now, I am going to go so far as say that I think your WW felt abandoned by you and thus vulnerable to succumbing to her weaknesses. She is angry at you because she has these abandonment issues, and you left her out there unprotected. She is rationalizing her actions of course, but the anger is still there nonetheless. She is also afraid that you are going to abandon her anyway because of what she did, so she does not want to try. If you leave after she gives it her all, then her belief about herself, (that she is unlovable), will be confirmed.

I know this sounds like psycho-babble, but take it for what it’s worth. I can tell you that I think of Mr. Z. as my white knight now because he took me back. He has shown me that I do deserve true love despite what I did to him. Although it is my job to treat the wound I inflicted, he has helped heal me too.

I hope that your WW will give you the chance to be her white knight. She needs you now more than ever.

Mrs Z.

Marshmallow,

OK, bad question are you cranky. Got it. kinda like "are you on your per*od??"

Got it. But, i thought i was supposed to lay off the "I love you's" for awhile and just be really nice.

How long have you been married?

You KNEW it was a bad question. LOL

About the "I love you's". You're right, you ought to use them sparingly. Or in a "drive by" fashion.

You know, say them and quickly change the subject or hang up the phone, or walk away.

Don't say it and leave it hanging out there as if you are waiting for her to say it back to you.

MrsZonie,

Thanks so much for the insight. I have picked up on a lot of things over the years that she has a fear of abandonment. I do not know if she had any experiences like you did though.

She doesn't like to talk about serious emotional issues at all and avoids them like the plague, gets angry if i press.

She has told me before things that make me believe that she thinks she is unloveable. I think she has very low self-esteem and makes up for it by seeking to be the center of attention for validation (that she is beautiful, funny, interesting etc.)

To me this is really strange bc she is an absolute knockout beauty, is funny, witty, charming, loving (at least she used to be all those things before she was abducted) and I can't for the life of me figure out why she would doubt herself in any way.

She says she wanted that from me, BUT, when I did give her those things she acts like she is not really interested, or she doesn't believe me. And I am not talking about behaviour I exhibited post A either, I am talking about Pre-A.

I tell her that I am committed to staying married to her and that I am not going to give up without a fight for HER.

I just don't thinks she cares right now...

She treats you like this because you allow it. Unlike others I do not believe in calling abusive behavior fog.

The fact is I think you should get counseling. Find out why you think so little of yourself that you would allow this woman to treat you this way.

I tried to appease my XW before I knew she was sleeping with another guy. She raked me thru the coals. When I learned she had slept with him I dumped her and filed for divorce. I must tell you that was the only time I saw her have fear in her eyes. She did a complete 180 and begged me to stay with her. Since I divorced things are so much better not living with a lying cheating woman.

Get help and find out why you think you should be subject to this behavior. She gets to use you for money and then when you interfere with her sleeping with other men she does not know if she wants to be married? You would be far better off without her unless she changes right now.

Your only other alternative is learn how to accept and live with abusive behavior. Or you could go to plan B and wait until she is tired having her fun and live with a woman that is not in love with you.

I am sorry if I sound harsh but I just get tired of people accepting this kind of behavior. You control your life and just think on why you want to be married to a person like this.

But in order to answere your question she treats you like this because she can. I think you should also look into the mirror and think about why you would accept her abuse. It is not fog it is free will.

Having said that I do wish you the best of luck. No one should be treated like you are. I really feel for you on one hand but on the other you could stop her behavior today. It really is up to you.