Krazy,

Let me ask you this.......

Think about the women in your life you DO respect.....why do you respect them??? This could be neighbors, friends, co-workers, or any woman you do respect.....what is it about them you do respect????

Respond to that and will try to keep up......I just have some thoughts going about this and you and just about all of us BS on here concerning this......but I am REALLY busy today, so be patient with me....


not2fun

Now,,,,I have to admit this whole thing about respect and romantic love has me puzzled. The statement about how you need to have respect to have romantic love I think is a little misguided. I mean, seriously. I think I am having a hard time putting those together because it would seem to me that if you needed respect to have romantic love, then HOW in the world do people have affairs??? I mean, I can understand the partners having respect for each other BEFORE the lines are crossed, BUT how would they after???? To me, it would seem that all respect would be thrown out the door.......

Now, I am sure they probably FOOL themselves thinking they respect this person, but do they TRULY???? Can you look someone in the eye and say "yes, I respect you....even though you are married, even though you broke your word, even though you are lying to all around you,"......yet the affair goes on and on....

I guess it is just another example of strong addictions are and why DR. H treats affairs like addictions.

Also another example of how a rational person cannot make sense of irrational behavior.....


not2fun

I guess I'll be the dissenting voice here and say that I never lost any respect for my DW. In fact, I've probably gained some since she started posting here. When she first arrived she took a real beating by some of the vets to snap her out of the fog. Then, she stayed around being reminded daily of the worst mistake of her life in order to help other people work through their situations. IMO that takes a lot of strength.

I think it depends on how you view the A. In our situation, I truly believe it was an aberration of LaLa's character. The A in our case was due to many sh!ty circumstances that had even one been removed, it likely would have never happened. It was not an act perpetrated against me. It's not like she walked out of the house and said I'll fix him and went out and had an A. It was a gradual shifting of boundaries with someone she believed she could trust. In the end, she was conned by a player. She's still responsible for the choice that was made, but I can see the circumstances that led to it. Once the line is crossed, it becomes an act of self preservation to continue filling the addiction. The WS is able to compartmentalize their life because if they let the guilt they feel creep in, it takes away from the high of the A.

She's still the same woman I fell in love with many years ago. I view her no differently today than I ever have. She made a mistake, one with far reaching consequences and damage, but it was still a mistake none the less. So just because me DW made a mistake, one that has caused me an enormous amount of pain, doesn't negate all the other aspects of her character that make her respectable in my eyes. We are all capable of horrible things in bad circumstances.

Want2Stay

I think it's great that you still have that amount of respect for her, but it seems that she did earn it back partly by her actions in here. What about the time between dday and when she starting posting here to help others? There was no respect lost during that period of time? Really?

Intro,

No, during that time there was more damage done to our relationship and my love for her rather than my respect for her. I guess it's all in the perspective you have about the A. Don't get me wrong here, I still have many of my own struggles with what happened, but they aren't due to a loss of respect. My problems come from the lies and manipulations that where used to cover up the A. For me, trust is the most important part of a relationship. Once that trust has been abused to the degree it takes to carry on an A and then cover it up, I have found it difficult to regain.

Like in you sitch, you went out and had a ONS after Dday. An act that you intended to do. Does that make you any less respectable or was it a mistake you made in the heat of the moment?

Want2Stay

I'm not sure...W has to be the authority on that one.


edit:

I should add that my W has always referred to most of my past GF's as sl_ts and wh_ores, so it's safe to assume that she never had respect for me and my past relationships anyway, and that she doesn't respect me for the ONS.

It is pretty funny how she speaks about my old GF's though....I don't even argue with W about how she feels about them, but isn't it odd that NONE of them were married? She says these things about them, yet I'm supposed to respect her? Wow.

Intro,



I see your point, that would be difficult to overlook.

Queue Alanis Morissette singing....

"Isn't It Ironic"

Want2Stay

Intro--

Coming from the other side of the tracks, I can tell you that a RA is incredibly painful also, and comes with its own hosts of insecurities, etc, that are described by many BSs here.

My H also had a RA shortly after D-day. He, much like you, blames it on me, saying it "would have never happened if it wasn't for me".

I guess what all of this has taught me is that you have to have standards for your OWN behavior, and you can't base how you behave on what someone did or didn't do to you. Then you aren't in control of your behavior, someone else is.

Has your wife talked to you at all about the RA? I have huge, huge, huge issues with my H's emotionally, yet I rarely talk to him about it because of his attitude towards it-- that it was my fault.

My point is, once you choose to recover your M, BOTH OF YOU have to take FULL responsibility for your actions-- that means accepting that your RA took a sh!tty situation-- and made it worse. I am not going to get into whether it is just as bad as what your wife did, or not as bad... I think my own personal jury is out on that, I'm not sure what I think about that one. But I know my H defends his saying "well I didn't do what you did" and that I did it first. Still doesn't make it any less painful, bud. Understandable, sure. Less painful? No. And that's what matters-- the damage it caused and the pain.

I guess I just see a lot of my H in you, intro. And I think we come from opposite sides of the tracks, and in some cases you can learn the most from that kind of sitch.

E.

You are right that we can use eachother's situations to get guidance during recovery.

I do however have to state that I do not blame my ONS on my W. I did it all on my own...it was my decision to do it and take 100% responsibility for it. It does beg a couple of questions though...if WW didn't have an affair, would I have had a ONS?...no. If it was in fact a "RA", doesn't the word "revenge" (eye for an eye) aoutomatically involve WW's A?...yes...if it didn't, it would be a "RA"...just an "A". That isn't something I'm using to blame my W...it's just truth.

I get that. I really do. But-- I guess the way I see A's (all A's, even RA's) is that there's ALWAYS a "reason". Not a justification... but a "reason". The "reason" people have A's is because of unmet ENs and LBs. Almost ALWAYS. In a way, when someone is in a A, they stop meeting their spouses ENs and of course, the A is the ULTIMATE LB.

I understand your arguments "if she didn't... I wouldn't have...." but then again, couldn't she make that argument too?? "If you would or wouldn't have done this that or the other thing... she wouldn't have...."? Then you are getting into circular logic, I guess. My H and I have had these convos in the past (I've learned they are TOTALLY unproductive...)... I bring up his A, he says he wouldn't have if I didn't... I say I wouldn't have had an A if he would have made me a priority in his life (over his ever-important job) and actually showed that he cared about me occasionally and stopped lying all the time and the LBs... he says he would have been more affectionate if I wouldn't have been a nag... I say I wouldn't have been a nag if he wouldn't have been a slob that didn't do anything at all to help out... he says he would have helped out if I wouldn't have yelled at him about "how to do it"... you see what I mean, we could go on like that forever-- until we get back to the very first transgression, ever (and who knows what that was after 8 years!) There's always a "reason"-- but you are never "justified" in doing something wrong unless you are defending yourself from immediate harm. And having an A in response to your W's A does not fall in that category. You reacted-- and in most cases, reactions end up being mistakes-- because they are based on emotions and not logic.

There's always a reason, intro-- so having a "reason" doesn't make it any less painful. I'll have to catch up on your sitch-- I know you are new to recovery, but I don't know much about your Ws A. I'll dig up your thread.

I just sense that you are dismissing your A-- and I think that's a mistake. I think you need to take your actions, and your actions alone, and if you truly take responsibility, then make amends, like your W is trying to for her A. Don't discount what you did. Have you assured your W that it was a one-time occurrence, or are you assuming she knows that? Because from my POV, I am terrified that every time it is perceived that I am doing something wrong, he is going to run off to another woman from now on-- although he has more of a history of this than just his A, if you read my thread.

E.

That is a GREAT post eeyoree.....

One that should maybe go in Pep's notable post thread....

And you are right, it is a never ending circle that gets you NOWHERE.......

not2fun

Bumping for Krazy.....

not2fun

Thanks N2F!!

E.

Your circular logic is exactly what W and I do when discussing the A's...it could go on forever.

What I usually end up saying that usually puts an end to the debate (and remember this is the BH talking)...we could have been at each other's throats for 7 years (which we NEVER were), but I never would have cheated on her....she did. She took it the "next level"...a level that I never would have taken it to. That's where the circle of "who's to blame" started in my opinion.

Regardless, it's impossible to point at who's to blame and still try to recover...I know this.

At that point its not a relationship or a M anymore intro-- its a game and you are assigning yourself as scorekeeper-- to say when the game started or who scored how many "points" on the hurt scale. And maybe you would have never had an A (but FWIW-- I think that is a very common thing that just about everyone says-- but is contradicted heavily by the staggering rate of infidelity in this country... I think that's an easy thing to say, and is the moral thing to say, but harder to "live up to". I'm not saying you would have, its just food for thought-- especially since you were quick to have an RA).

Stop the score keeping.

Really, your W gets to define how many "points in the hole" you are, and you get to define how many "points in the hole" she is. You are both in the hole, like it or not. And how many points in the hole each of you are, is ENTIRELY INDEPENDENT of the other person's score-- and should be treated that way. To make amends for what you did, you should focus on getting back onto the positive side on your wife's score board... no matter WHAT your "score" reads for how she's doing. They are independent. If you tie the scores together, you are going to fall into the trap of circular logic again-- you don't have to increase your score with her because yours is still sinking, etc...

ETA: That doesn't mean that you should let her walk all over your boundaries, etc.
There are still consequences and boundaries. And that doesn't mean that you should work and work and work forever while she sits back and does nothing. But-- for at least a good few months-- you owe her to uncouple the deeds and deal with your issues alone. Then re-eval. If she's not making progress at all-- then you've learned, you've given it a chance, and its plan B time (which is where I'm at now). But someone's gotta "get on the bandwagon" first. And you've both screwed up, so if you want this, it might as well be you!

E.

It certainly is.

I have a pretty sorted past as far as relationships go, and some of the women (girls) that I previously had been with are in fact of the nature that my W sees them as. I have never really argued that point with her...she's right. But, the day I met my wife to be I turned the corner (or so I thought), and had no need or intention to be with someone like that again.

Now, not only am I with someone with "morals lacking"(shall we say)...I'm married to her.

She still doesn't get it, because she still talks about my XGF's in this way. Is it still fog?

Great post eeyoree !!!!

Point taken

Is your W on the boards, intro?

She is a member. She hasn't posted a lot, but she reads pretty much everything that goes on here. I think she is a little embarrassed about some of the things that I have disclosed in my "recovery" thread and it scared her away from posting. I'm sure some of her embarrassment is due to her own actions, and not just what I've posted....just easier for her to say it is my fault I guess.

Oh yeah, the never ending exercise in futility. Dividing up blame will lead you no where. Does it really matter who's fault it was anyway? It won't change the past one bit. You still have to deal with the consequences and move forward. I think that's why the Harley program doesn't look back once the details of the A are out in the open. There is just stuff that happened that no matter how many times you go over it, it will never be acceptable to the BS. Best to just look ahead to the future.

Want2Stay