Cat, wow, a lot of associations

failure, alone, isolated, tolerable, insignificant, replaceable, defective, responsible, thriving, competent, courageous, confident, whole and complete, forgiven, forgivable, hope, grace, mercy, okay

My priorities, wow, that's something we talked about a long time ago. I think POJA is about coming to realize that there is a win win and we just have to Keep an Open Mind to find it. "Progress for the greatest number depends upon Unity." I don't think they are mutually exclusive.

Here's what he says. I didn't post up every time because I thought I'd already shared about that ad nauseaum. already. I disagree with the statements.

"You're too rigid and prudish.
You're not the Nina I married.
We're just too broken. We need to be with people who are not broken.
You make me out to be the bad guy.
You think I'm a horrible monster.
You're just not happy.
You don't accept me for who I am.
You don't appreciate the life I give you.
You don't have confidence that I know what I'm doing.
You don't support me."

Thanks for the hugs!

It wasn't a rhetorical question, I was hoping maybe you had something in mind. I hear you, that it is different this time, stronger. I thought I was doing better with negotiating, bringing my taker to the table, to look at what's in it for me, too. To ask him to go first, since he doesn't have a history of following through on his commitments to me.

Here's another way it *might* be different this time: (I don't know the answer to this, only you can answer) if you think you really are heading for D, can you accept that, can you accept that you will be ok, and that you are getting stronger and better every day? If so... if you can to the point where you know you'll be ok even if y'all D... then can you truly let go of the outcome? If you know you'll be ok even in the event of a D, then can you truly give your M one last chance, with you being supportive, knowing you aren't doing it in desperation but rather from strength, because it's what you choose and what you want?


I know you said you disagree with these statements, but I would like to offer some comments anyway:

1. "You're too rigid and prudish."
- You are NOT a green monster. This is his opinion. Who defines what is "too" much of something?

2. "You're not the Nina I married."
- We all change and grow. Hopefully you are changing for the better. If it's the improvements he doesn't like, is it worth it to you to give up those improvements? If there are good aspects of your personality you value but you've lost, do you think you can recover those aspects?

3. "We're just too broken. We need to be with people who are not broken."
- Everyone's broken, once you get to know them. (Paraphrased from some unknown source.)

4. "You make me out to be the bad guy."
- When he says this, do you admit your own part of the problem? Do you check to see if you are making respectful statements, thoughtful requests, respecting the fact that he is a separate individual with different opinions? If you are, can you re-emphasize to him that you admit the things you do wrong, and that you are working to improve?

5. "You think I'm a horrible monster."
- See #4.

6. "You're just not happy."
- You're working on this by taking ADs and seeing an IC. Is it helping? Is Tools helping? Are you acknowledging that your attitude is your decision, and you are choosing to have a good one? Can you take an honest look and see if your general outlook is negative when you are around him?

7. "You don't accept me for who I am."
- How true is this? If it is not how you think, are you communicating to him what you want to communicate to him?

8. "You don't appreciate the life I give you."
- I'm not sure I understand this one. Is he asking for you to be submissively grateful, like a Stepford Wife? Aren't you part of this life that the two of you have created together? Did he "give" you this life?

9. "You don't have confidence that I know what I'm doing."
- How true is this? See #7.

10. "You don't support me."
- See #7.

Numbers 1, 2, and 6 seem to be complaints about you as a person. Are these statements about you true? If there is any element of truth, is this something you would like to change about yourself?

All the rest, but especially numbers 3, 4, 5, and 7, seem to me to be about how he feels about himself. It seems he has a lot of insecurity, or fear, or guilt, or something. I'm not sure how y'all splitting up will help that.

Numbers 7, 8, 9, and 10 seem to me like he is looking to you for validation, for his own self-image.

It seems HE is quite unhappy. Could #6 be about projecting his unhappiness onto you? How does he seem to deal with you becoming less depressed? Here's just a thought - could he have a need for you to be depressed?

Could his desire to move be a desperate attempt to change *something* to alleviate unhappiness?

I'm just throwing these things out, in the interest of breaking out of the same-old-same-old pattern.

Yeah, what she said.

LOL.

Wow, jayne, thank you so much for the time that you put in this.


I don't think H wants a D. I think he wants me to go back to letting him be the sole decision-maker. For me to go back to accepting his decisions as set in stone. I would be okay in the event of a D, there, you are corrent in that. I've talked to other moms out there, and they struggle financially. My mortgage here is $1750, and I can pay that on my salary. Out there, the women pay $1800 for a room in a house. Would my kids and I be "okay" in that situation? Sure. I've lived in a room in a house before. Heck, I've even done that with kids, that summer we went to NYC. Is that a healthy environment? I don't really think so. But I can keep an open mind and consider what would make me enthusiastic about giving up the security I have here for the worst case there. This isn't pulling at straws. H did get more abusive when we went out there last summer. So I need a backup plan for me to be safe. If we waited a year, and I didn't see the abusive behaviors resume, then I would feel much more comfortable about that.

So you did help me, jayne, to realize that there are other options that I have not considered. Actually, Hold yesterday suggested like a huge money account for a different circumstance. So maybe something like that, an account that I could pull from if I needed money to stay temporarily so I'm not "stuck" if something goes terribly wrong out there.



I am not too rigid or prudish for my own taste. I have an open mind, but there are options that I don't try to make room for now that I did back when I was dating. I was 20, and really changed a lot of who I was just being a teenager with all that fuzzy thinking, and have since then reclaimed a lot of who I am. An example is that back then I would pick him and his buddy up from the bar when I finished my shift, where now I would consider that enabling.

I am a happy person again, I have defeated the depression and regained that part of who I am. When he says I'm not happy, he's referring to when I ask him to do something differently, like look for a position in town instead of resuming the business travel for his current position without keeping looking for a better alternative. He's said that his work there is drying up, anyway, so he'd need to start looking now, anyhow. And I am okay with that, asking for what I need now.

I will be back with the others question, thanks!

By the way, when I said "Are these statements about you true? If there is any element of truth, is this something you would like to change about yourself?" I didn't mean to imply they were true. Just to ask if they are true or false. You know:

"Catch yourself saying negative things about yourself and ask yourself if they are true or false. If they are false, say the opposite thing to yourself. If they are true, change how you treat yourself. Do not put yourself down. Instead say, “I can change these things and make my life better." "

jayne, I hear you, and didn't take it as a shot. It does help to think it through every now and then instead of just going back to the same answers. For example, there was a time that I was depressed, and it wasn't honest to tell myself that he was mistaken about that. I understand his concern. I do put myself in situations sometimes that would make someone depressed, so I do want to look at it objectively.

I don't think of him as a bad guy. He says this when I ask him to choose different actions. Not because his actions are bad or wrong, but because our goal is to rebuild this. For example, the kids want to got to PG13 movies, like the new Batman, I spak up, and say, I need to check this out first, because some movies will be okay, and some not. This one, my sister had been to, and she told me about a few things that would not be okay, like a young boy with a gun held to his head. But then H tells the kids, don't worry, you'll go. I feel ignored and like we aren't protecting the kids when he said that, so I told him. But then he gets angry, triggered that I would say he isn't protecting the kids. This kind of thing over and over. I hope that over time we could work through these things. Today I'm doing better than that day at choosing my attitude.

This weekend was hard. I can withstand a few days of H's stonewalling, but then it gets to a point wher I feel like I'm losing a grip on myself. I even have a plan in mind for this, the modified 180, but then I didn't implement it until it was too late, where I'd gotten into a distorted frame of mind, feeling hopeless, instead of secure that our family will be okay regardless. I was talking to my friend, and she suggested that I sounded frustrated and should go to a meeting, I thought, how can I go take a break from this and just reinforce H's idea further that I'm dysfunctional and can't handle life with him? I was also reluctant to tell H how much his stonewalling was hurting me, for fear of putting pressure on him. Today, I see that it doesn't matter what H's response is, that I need to get support when I need it instead of pressuring myself to handle it alone.

When I sunk further into despair to where I recognized I can't handle it alone, then I shared it with H, and then he came around. By that time, I was so weepy, and it took my some time to feel like myself again.

I asked him last night, why did he think about sitting down next to me, when before he was avoiding me, and he said, he saw that it had gotten too far. I do feel like he will punish me and keep punishing me. I am working against falling into Withdrawal. But I recognize that as much as the MC is helping, that it's not enough, and I need more help. I'm going to ask the IC next week about going back on the ADs.

So sorry.

Write me?

Cat, you've got mail. So funny, writing things out, I saw how far my actions were from what I have commited to myself to do. I need to look at why my actions aren't matching my values, like pressuring myself to put up with stonewalling and H's constant commentary about wanting to leave me without putting boundaries to protect myself in place. That's just unreasonable.

EO - I read a lot of pre-acting in your previous post. Like not wanting to share with your H what you were going through because you feared that his judgment.

Seabird, by pre-acting, do you mean predicting? REading the subtext? I looked up pre-acting, and it gave context as the body language cues that we give before we speak. Is that what you mean?


LA calls this controlling the response, and I was really working to not do this, but then this weekend, I backed down in my fear. Fear of how I would respond, in tears. He already sees me as broken. I need to let go of that fear. His opinion is his to own. I don't see myself as broken. I will be okay, even if he sees my response and backs away further.

Sorry about the confusion. "Pre-acting" is probably a bit of a hackneyed term. It is assuming a response from the other person, and then changing your initial behavior based on that assumption. There's some DJ behavior wrapped up in assuming the other person's response as well.

And even if you're right about how he'll respond, you're still giving control of your behavior over to him. You feel "X", but you are afraid that he'll react "Y", so instead of acting on "X", you'll act (or not act) in response to an action that he hasn't even taken yet.

Does that make it clear as mud?

Thanks, Seabird, that does make a lot more sense. We can't change what we don't acknowlege.

I did speak up, today at lunch. H all of a sudden this weekend started chewing with his mouth WIDE open. I didn't say anything, just averted my eyes, because I was doing that preacting, afraid of the response, "What, you're telling me I don't even CHEW right?" which he hadn't even given yet. Today I came home and made lunch, and he was chewing with his mouth way open again. I said, I can see your food when you chew like that, in an even tone. He wasn't mad. He said he's had to chew like this since his braces got tightened last week, because it's so painful, and was his food showing when we had friends over for a party Saturday? I said yes, and he said he WISHED I had told him the other day, because he was wondering about that. I shared that I was afraid of his reaction the other day, but I'm working on that, and I am sharing now.

There's something wrong when we have to filter what we say and think through a 'will he be upset' filter first.

Cat, I know you're right about that. That's how I am working on Boundaries, first thing. Because that's not what I want for my life, nor to example for my girls. I liked how LA describe on your thread, two people sharing from their own perspective.

Today's our anniversary, and I'm trying to get into the spirit. For a gift, we are trying to POJA a joint gift to each other. I've thought of a paddle boat or a rowboat for the lake out back, tennis rackets, or a timeshare. This isn't the time to invest in a timeshare for us, so I'm thinking we could go to Outdoor World, kind of like Cabella's down here, to take a look together. That would be great for RC, to have a fun activity like that, especially the rowboat.

EO,

I'm so glad you've got all these great MB posters...I don't feel so crazy when Seabird, Hold and booka say, "What? You mean you don't know why he's heckbent on SoCal?" It was crazymaking to me.

Until I hear it straight from your H, I don't get it. This has been going on now for years. And I think it was Jayne who really nailed my suspicion that your H has always had (even prior to meeting you) a fresh-start complex where new environment feels like new him...wipes the slate clean, in part. Hence, all the moving during your marriage.

I do not think he was moving to get away from your FOO--I think that was part of it. I do not think he's doing his upwardly mobile thing at all costs--I do think that's part.

After reading's everyone's responses and your highest honesty, EO, I have a proposition.

Ya ready?

Seems to me his greatest fear is that he won't live out his dream of living in SoCal (and it's just that vague because he truly cannot account for it...doesn't feel like home to him...doesn't resonate in his spirit...I haven't heard his "whys" from you and I believe it's because he hasn't shared them with you, or maybe even, himself); and your biggest fear is that you move for real and the marriage ends; or that he travels a lot for his job and leaves you truly living in SoCal.

So...I believe you would move for sure one year from now if you had a written and signed post-nuptial agreement that the job he already has in place in SoCal (validated in writing by the company hiring him) will have no more than three days travel a month, and that you both would remain married and living together for two years from the date you and the kids arrive in SoCal, and if he violates the agreement, has an affair or the discovery of one, during that time, or chooses to end the marriage for other reasons, then you will receive three-quarters of marital assets, a set amount of child support and alimony, which will amply provide for the standard of living in SoCal for you and your children. And it leaves in that he can decide for the family to leave SoCal within those two years if he chooses, only then the agreement continues, and says then there will no move back to SoCal in your future for not less than 10 years.

That way...he gets his dream and you get your security. You can make it three years, if you like.

As for his lying in MC...this is GREAT information...he has manipulated you over the years because he chose not to believe your words because they didn't match your actions. Now he's having the hardest time because your words do match your actions. What riled you in MC was you didn't want the MC to disapprove of you by believing him...hey, good to know! Let it go. If your MC isn't solid enough to confirm and clarify what he believes, call him on his lie, then their approval isn't worth it. State what you're feeling and perceiving in MC right then...you will be helped. God will provide. That's where your communication breaks down...

you stay silent, outthink yourself and resent H for doing it.

H speaks honestly where his OWN self-deception shows, outthinking himself and resenting you for doing it.

Okay...acknowledge..."This agreement is my active agreement, reflecting my confidence in you, my support of your dream to live in SoCal, and balances my fears and desires, equally. I know we can have a wonderful marriage...an amazing one. This way neither of has to feel trapped, flying without a net or that one is not committed to The Marriage, even when we don't feel like being committed to one another."

Now for your list from my perspective (like Jayne and others said, this is about him, not you):

You're too rigid and prudish. - I wish you were less moral so I would not feel inferior, bad and wrong so much.

You're not the Nina I married - I would probe this one...for truly as said before, who really is? Your essence has not changed, EO...remember that. Your choices have. And you choose each day, so you are new each day.

We're just too broken. We need to be with people who are not broken. - Here's the red flag to me for infidelity...thinking others make us whole, heal us, complete our voids...you guys are real partners...the rest is fantasy...I believe H has an innate hunger for a constant clean slate.

You make me out to be the bad guy - He lives in a world of good guy/bad guy...not your doing. You said this used to be your chosen perspective, if I remember correctly? Now it is not...and hasn't been for a couple of years.

You think I'm a horrible monster. - Still bad guy/good guy stuff...monster/saint isn't any different. Are you hearing the projection here?

You're just not happy. - This is a major DJ...you know you have moments of joy, happiness, soft contentment and peace. Do you speak of these? Fear isn't the antithesis of happy...when we feel happy, we feel fear of losing that feeling within it, simultaneously...your H may experience it differently.

You don't accept me for who I am. - Projection. You know it's his choices you do not accept nor at times approve of...ask him if acceptance and approval are the same things to him. I believe you're really good at separating person from actions...unless you get really fearful (hence angry or hurt). What do you think?

You don't appreciate the life I give you. - He doesn't feel appreciated. End of story. Ask him about his expectations, how he realizes appreciation (he may truly only experience gratitude in the form of you doing what he wants).

You don't have confidence that I know what I'm doing. - You don't have confidence in his commitment to The Marriage (moving, travel, drinking). You have full confidence he chooses...his choices are his own and that every day he is new, also.

You don't support me. - Enable (that's what I hear)...permit...makes you his master.

And from that perspective (guess)...why on earth would you want to be his everything? You want more "you don'ts and aren'ts" projected from him? In one post you say you see the struggle, still, of being enmeshed...and then you bemoan the fact that he doesn't see you as an extension of his every thought, feeling, etc? I believe you mourn not having more influence, control...for neither of you were each other's everything...that excludes reality, our power and breaches and distorts our healthy limits.

He is attached to you. You are attached to him. You are each other's partners even when you don't experience each other this way. Comes and goes. When you re-center, KNOW you are partners, allies...you are married. You are each half of the union. Not all or nothing...just a signal you're wishing, riling, hurting...do your trace and share.

Be brave and show enthusiasm for your Taker and Giver...bring your Taker to the table without shame, which is without self-image in command. You know you both can be really happy together...in love, respectful...POJA does work.

You guys are gonna flip flop back and forth with "Don't define me" and "Tell me when I look disgusting"...that's human interaction...best friends...your fear sabotages your connection (and you may do this intentionally to feel safe rather than loved); a signal you're not practicing speaking of your fear outloud and your choice to hold it and speak, not react to it...and of your feeling of pride, bravery in doing so. Sharing it all...combats the silence, the non-response based on possible response...and breaks the recurring enmeshment.

LA

LA, I'm going to take this in peices, because I don't want to miss anything. I like your proposal. It would take also no more leaving talk this interim year. This has been really hard on me. I still feel resistant to the 3 days every month. Maybe 3 days would be easier than 5. I can keep an open mind and try it.


I did speak up in MC, but I was still very angry that this was the conclusion H came to. Felt like disrespect to me. Yes, I do this, too. I am working on that. Doesn't justify accepting it from others.