Bless you Melody. You have been very faithful in your encouragement to me while I am in my own fog.

I don't know why you are so thoughtful and caring but I sure appreciate it.

I have been thinking about this forum. Isn't it unique how a bunch of strangers can get together and share the most intimate details about their lifes struggles. I am not sure what I would have done, if a friend of mine had not recommended this site.

I do a lot of reading and it is amazing how similar the stories are. I also find it interesting how I can see solutions for someone elses issues but seem blinded on my own issues.

Thank you to all of you who have taken the time to respond to my posts. I hope I can learn through this and repay by helping someone else in their hour of need.

God Bless

bcboy, I am very glad you found us. Most of us were distraught when we got here and thankfully, there was someone here to help us too.

edited to add: have you picked up the book Surviving an Affair yet? Dr. HArley sells it cheap on this website with fast, cheap shipping: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi6070_sa.html

Another great resource is his radio archive. He had a radio show where folks called in and asked him questions. It is very educational.

BCboy...since the OM is a neighbor I think you should make a call to a real estate agent and put the house up for sale. NC will NEVER be possible without moving.

I also would have someone anonymously let the OM know that he is putting his health and future on the line by remaining in contact with your wife. And, no, I am not kidding. I see him as a bully...and firmly believe that punching a bully in the nose is the best course of action.

Your tasks for today should be to move back into your bedroom. Also, look your wife square in the eye and tell her that you will not be moving out. Also tell her that despite her protests to the contrary that you know she is having an affair and that her lies are not fooling you.

Ask her if she would be willing to talk to SH for one session. Based on what I have read here he seems to be able to get waywards to see what they are really doing.

Have your kids spoken to their mom about her actions? Would you be better off without her??? I ask this because of the words of your children. Perhaps your wife is a bit nuts and should be left behind. Obviously you and your family would know best.

Keep your head up....and do not take anything she says seriously. She is a wayward...waywards lie, cheat and steal. Know your enemy.

BC, sorry to say that this is a PA. Sounds like your WW is a rebound relationship for this OM, and we all know that those have less of a chance than any other A, which is almost no chance anyway.

I was in a 34 yr. M, and I don't regret putting up a fight. I eventually had to go to Plan B, but I'm glad I fought as hard as I did because if I hadn't, I wouldn't be able to live with myself. Please, get a plan together and fight. Part of that plan includes Plan B if she refuses to stop the A.

Unfortunately I found MB too late and had made too many mistakes, but you have found this place early in the game and still have a good chance to save your M. Trust us, if you bust up this A, fight for your M, and succeed, you will be your WW's hero.

bcboy, I have to agree with Chailover and didn't want to break it to you, but she is right. Your W has had the opportunity and is already inordinately bonded to this man. I would be SHOCKED to find out they did not sleep together all this time. I suspect the OM has been spending his days in your house while you were at work for a long time. And when you retired, you threw a big monkey wrench in the works.

Why did his wife divorce him? Was it because of this affair? It wouldn't surprise me to find out she knew about the affair and left for that reason. Do you know how to get ahold of her?

Regarding being better off without her. I am beginning to think I might be. After telling my children and friends what she has been doing, and they have been telling me how she has been untruthful, and her actions they are saying I should move on. Get out. They do think she is erratic and her behaviour is getting more extreme, like most borderlines will.

The OM works long days as he is in construction. His wife left him after going to Europe to see her family, struck up a relationship with an old boyfriend and filed for divorce. True to form that A is over now. I don't know how to get hold of her as she is off away traveling in some foreign land.

I am starting to get my act together. The W is telling me our M would only have a chance if I can change. The problem is what she tells me I need to change keeps changing. She is in IC right now and is working on stuff from her childhood that has been impacting her all her life.

I am having to evaluate what the future would look like. Is it better to develop a new life, fight the effects of lonliness; or stay in this tension filled dysfunctional M. One thing they say about borderlines is if there isn't a crisis they will create one. And it can be a real roller coaster ride.

I have lost my trust for her and I doubt if I will ever be able to believe what she says again. She admits she lies because she says she is scared to tell the truth. She does not like to feel the guilt I guess. She says she is afraid of my reaction. That reaction is that I ask questions, and when I ask questions I find there are inconsistancies in her answers.

I asked her when she has contacted the OM last. She said Thursday of this week. And I overheard her on the phone to him Saturday night when she thought I was out. So she keeps lying. She didn't think I could hear.

Right now I am beginning to think that I am going to have to get out of this situation as it is very stressful. I am preparing the plan. She is unwilling to stop the A as she keeps saying we are separated (and in her words it is nothing). Her interpretation of when we were separated is when she told me she wanted to separate we were separated.

She has explained that she thinks God brought this OM into her life to show her what could be possible for her future relationships. This OM is sensitive to a womans needs, and thoughtful. She wants to be happy with the time she has left. She has not been happy with our relationship. She says I am verbally abusive - but what she is calling abusive is when I don't give in right away to what she wants.

She brought up another issue last night which was a huge issue for her. My wife has not been particularly organized. She decieded one night to order Chinese food for my son because we were going out. I had 10 dollars in my wallet which I needed for the next day. She had forgotten to go to the bank. She asked me to give her the 10. I told her I needed it for the next day. She says I don't have any money for son to get the Chinese food. (There was other food in the house but she wanted to treat our son) She would then have to go down to the restaraunt and use her bank card to get the food, what would have been more convenient would be to give son the cash. This was not an unusual situation. I did not have time to go to the bank in the morning to get more money.

This was a huge deal to her. This was an example of how uncaring I was. I felt that she needed to take responsiblity for her own decisions and if she wanted to do something check out the requirements ahead of time. I am getting weary of always operating in this crisis mode. She said I was being selfish and self centered because I would not give up the money. It is a key example of how I withhold. I was being unsupportive of her need to treat our son. This is an example of how things go. I was getting weary of alway having to ride to the rescue and "fix" the problem when a bit of planning would solve the problem. If I hold her accountable for her actions she gets really steamed.

She says she has become increasingly unhappy over the years. I have been trying to meet her needs but I have failed. As one of our friends said to me (who has know us for years) I don't think you are going to be able to fill that void she has. It has gotten a little out of hand. He said to me he felt I have been too tolerent of the situation. He doesn't know how I have survived. He is also saying get out, life does not have to be this stressful.

I still love my wife but after this last episode I am having to reevaluate where I am at
1) The EA possibly PA
2) Lying
3) Wanting to separate
4) Trust destroyed
5) Accusing me of Abuse
6) Not willing to go to M councelling
7) Demanding physical separation not just in home (as an option)
8) Saying she thinks she can find her soulmate, and its not me
9) Marriage has been bad for 30 years
10) Friends and several family members are saying get out (they are sad to see where we are at but not surprised)
11) SIL talked to wife in May that she thought OM liked her and W did not cut it off. ( I guess it was encouraging that someone else could like her)
12) Likelyhood she has a personality disorder that is getting more extreme. ( She is not willing to contemplate the thought that she may have one - one counsellor suggested it and she bailed - which apparently is common - counsellor told me I was likely in for a rough ride - but I stayed)
13) I am getting weary and stressed and I am not coping as well as I was. I am starting to feel the depression coming back.
14) Unwilling to cut off contact with OM because in her mind she is separated from me.
15) Wife says its too late now, there was a chance two years ago but not now.
16) She says the physical separation is necessary so we can both learn how to stand on our own.

I have tried to be tolerant of what is gong on, but I am loosing hope at this time. I see very little to build on. Right now there is only one person wanting to be in this M and I am starting to loose my desire.

bcboy, I have one question for you. Has your wife been this crazy and irrational all your marriage? When did this start?

That is a tough question about when it started. There have been shadows of the behaviour for 20 years but it really started to intensify about 7 years ago. One of the things that I am wondering triggered it was when her Father died. He was very controlling and she suffers from being guilt motivated. She probably felt freed up when he passed away. She has indicated she stayed in the marriage because of guilt.

She is currently seeing a councellor dealing with rejection from a her childhood. Her mother never wanted a baby, as I think she had to get married. One of the stories I heard was when they brought W in to the mother she started to moan "oh no not a girl, I wanted a boy". The doctor chastised her for this but still my W was fully aware of the story. She was pretty well ignored by parents but she was really bonded with the grandmother who lived with them while she was growing up. When the grandma died she was 7 and the teacher had to talk to the parents about what was wrong with W. She seemed to be in shock. She lost her significant bond at an early age.

My situation probably does not help either. My Mom died when I was 2 months old. I was raised by relatives until I was two. I have since done reading that this experience significantly impacts an individuals ability to bond and experience emotions.

My experience has been I am not very good with emotions. Of course I grew up in an era where "real men don't have emotions". Only sissys have emotions. Sports teams encourage you to "suck it up and be a man". I am sure you have heard the drill before. My father was also a workaholic and was never home. Not his fault he had a lot of bills to pay. He was an honorable man so he never declared bankrupcy. He paid everyone back.

Now in a marriage rather than being the hunter gatherer we also need to be experienced and skilled at emotional needs. I was lacking a role model. All I knew how to do was work hard and provide for my family. That's all a guy needs to do right? (not) So I have been trying to learn how to meet emotional needs. I feel like I learned how to drive a car but now I have to fly a plane.

So there you have it just a couple of messed up kids just trying to muddle our way through.

It's unescapable how our childhood and experiences affect us long after we become adults and probably continues on for the rest of our lifes.

In your case, at least you know and aware of your past and issues and hopefull know how to deal with it and sort things out.

ok, bcboy, do you want to save your marriage? Nothing you have said convinces me she is any different from any other wayward. This is far from hopeless and I have seen much worse than this come back frm the dead. Sure, you are entitled to leave, but wouldn't the ideal be to stay in your home and save your marriage?

Feel free to ask the other posters here if I am a purveyor of false hope. I wont be offended, I would welcome it.

Do you love your wife?

Another thing to consider is that if you move out, the OM will likely move in and your marriage will be less likely to ever recover. At the very least she will openly resume her affair. I firmly believe that she wants you out for this very reason.

There are times I wished I did not because it would be easier. I still do love my wife. I am beginning to wonder why but I still do love her.

The information I have recieved here has been pretty accurate so far so as much as my gut turns when I think of the prospect I think the OM would be continuing contact and progressing the relationship. My son has talked to him. My son had worked for him and he says he is not calling or coming by any more. I still know he would like to rekindle the relationship if the opportunity arises. So you are probably right.

I am struggling with what to do now. Do I stay here in a one sided relationship? I love and care for her. She does not love me, and wants to physically separate. She tells me she needs this time to heal. Hmmmmm. I don't believe what she says anymore. How can you trust when you have been lied to? How do you build a relationship when one party is not interested.

By leaving I agree that it would be over. I am not going to be sitting in the wings waiting to see if she will choose door number 1 or door number 2. If I go she will have to understand that I am gone. I will be establishing my own life and she will have to manage the best she can. She seems to think that I am willing to wait around for her to make up her mind on our future and that I will come running back.

As she said she may find out she cannot live without me in six months and we can get back together then. I don't think so. To my way of thinking she needs to realize this is serious and even though I deeply love her I can only take so much.

"Regarding being better off without her. I am beginning to think I might be. After telling my children and friends what she has been doing, and they have been telling me how she has been untruthful, and her actions they are saying I should move on. Get out. They do think she is erratic and her behaviour is getting more extreme, like most borderlines will."

Even if you do believe you might be better off without her,
even if your friends and family think you should move on,
that you two shuold not live to gether anymore...

WHY would you interpret that as YOU need to be the one who moves out?

You DO REALIZE that the reason she wants you to move out is because she wants to be able to have the OM in the home with her, right?

And men who work construction can find time to go fool around during the day.

Who told you the reason his marriage broke up? How do you know if you were told the truth, the whole story? Find out how to get in contact with his EX wife or some of her relatives or friends to hear her half of the story. It could be that he was cheating with your wife before she left, and her affair was a revenge affair. It seems to be too much of a coincidence that her EA supposedly started when you retired... more like your being home now interfered with it.

I can sort of understand your not wanting to fight for your marriage, to just give up and let this OM destroy your marriage and take your wife...

But why would you be so co-operative in getting out so he can come in? Dude, you're playing right into THEIR plan.

Sleep in your own bed tonight, put a for sale sign out front tomorrow, and tell her to move into one of those apartments she checked on.

Expose some more too - to some people who won't endorse her plan to get you out ASAP so he can take your place in your home. BTW, is he in a situation where he will have to sell his home because of his divorce? If so, he's probably coaching your wife on what to say and do to get you to move out so he can move in.

ok, so we have established that you love your wife and you want to save your marriage.


I am struggling with how to impress on you what you are dealing with. You continually take the RAMBLINGS OF A FALLING DOWN INTO ACCOUNT in your decision making process.

We are going to get NOWHERE if you continue to do this. By reacting to her every drunken rambling, you are allowing a DRUNK PERSON to drive this ship.

And guess where a fallng down drunk is going to take the ship? TO CRASH ON ROCKS.

Your wife is POSSESSED, SIR. She is DRUNK. She is not in her right mind and has NO IDEA how she feels and will not until the source of her intoxication is removed.

Unless you are willing to DRIVE THIS SHIP according to your plan and stop reacting her to FOGBABBLE we are going to get nowhere here.

Please listen to me, bcboy. Your wife is just like EVERY other WS who passes through here and is saying all the same stuff, VER BATIM. She is NO DIFFERENT. But hanging on her every word is crippling you.

With a falling down drunk, one must keep their focus on:

1. separating the drunk from his booze so he can sober up

2. not allowing oneself to be sidetracked by his drunken ramblings and fogbabble

3. going by ACTIONS only and NEVER TALK - TALK never matters coming from a WS, NEVER. Only action

Do you have the ability to put some cotton in your ears and stop hanging on every word uttered by a drunk? Do y0u have the ability to make a sane rational plan and STOP allowing a drunk to make your plans?

I am getting real worried, bcboy.

Please ...............focus on YOUR PLAN and not HER PLAN.

Her plan will lead you straight to desruction. Your may lead your marriage out of this morass.

"I still know he would like to rekindle the relationship if the opportunity arises. So you are probably right."

And he WILL as soon as you move out.

"I am struggling with what to do now. Do I stay here in a one sided relationship?"

OK, staying in your home does not mean you are 'staying in a one sided relationship', it means you are not goign to hand your wife AND home over to the OM.

"I love and care for her. She does not love me, and wants to physically separate."

So tell her to move out. She doesn't merely want to separate, she wants you to leave so she can pretend the separation, divorce, and adultery were your doing, and she wants to move the OM into your home.

"By leaving I agree that it would be over."

It sure will, and with handing over some hefty concessions tot he adulterers to boot.

"If I go she will have to understand that I am gone."

If you move out she won't really care what you're up to in her fogginess and with the OM sharing your home with her.

"I will be establishing my own life and she will have to manage the best she can."

Actually you'll be putting yourself out of your own home, doing much more work than needed to start your new life, while making it VERY EASY for her and the OM to pick up right where they left off. She'll manage quite easily I assure you if you do as your told.

"She seems to think that I am willing to wait around for her to make up her mind on our future and that I will come running back."

Right now she isn't worrying about whether or not you'll come running, she and he just want you to move out ASAP.

Because you were willing to sleep in the basement, while she had OM over for dates upstairs, they've gotten the impression that you will obey whatever humiliating command they give you now. So now they're telling you to move out of your own home so he can start coming over to your home again.

Sheesh! When you went to talk to the OM what did you guys say to each other?

You: I don't approve of you coming over to my house to see my wife, when I'm downstairs in the basement.

He: OK then if you won't shut up and put up while being relegated to the basement, then WE are going to have to tell you to move out.

Did they give you a deadline for when you have to be out by?
Maybe you better hurry up and pack, they might get upset if they have to wait much longer to have sex in your home.

I'm sorry but your denial and apathy is very frustrating.

There is something not right with the story about the OMW. Something doesn't FIT. Why would she be SO DESPERATE to get you out of the house if he has a whole house all to his own? Why would she bring him to YOUR HOUSE for dates when he has a whole house to himself?

Something does not add up. Do you know FOR A FACT that his wife is gone? I don't mean what you were told by liars, but as a matter of independent verification.

It is clear she needs you out because your retirement has interfered with their love lair. But why would they need a love lair if his wife has left and he has the house to himself?

What is wrong with this picture?

melody,

great insight.

Do not move out of your house. You did nothing wrong. You should not have to move.

I can alway rely on Mel when I need a good kick in the pants. OK I think I got it, stay in the home, let her go if she wants to.

The OMW is gone for sure as they live several properties up. OM had to take out a large mortgage to buy her out so that is why he has to work so much.

He was worming his way into our home because my W felt sorry for him as we all thought he was a nice guy, who needed someone to talk to because of his Divorce issues. I thought he was a nice guy until I realized the was making a move on my W. That's when I came here to find out how to best handle this. Boy did I learn my lesson about thinking a Male / Female friendship might be harmless. I was stupid not to have seen this and intervened earlier on.

My wife has told me that he has never touched her. She thought it was OK to have him to our place because everything is out in the open. She said I would have something to worry about if she was going up to his place, but she did not. I kept telling her it is till an affair. It was leading to getting physical. She says she does not think of him that way. Yet she is telling me she is looking for a man with heart (apparently she feels I have intelligence but not heart)

Thanks to MB forum here I think I intervened in the EA before it became a PA. It likely was heading there. The OM has backed off because he told my son he thought I was intimidating. I don't appologize for that even though I have members of my family who think I insulted him. Too d**n bad for that. He was acting inappropriately and got caught. He even said he "maybe, might could see how I might think there was something going on" I told him "Not maybe". So if he is embarassed, good.

Wife was really p*ssed at me this morning as she feels I damaged her reputation. I told her I did not damage her reputation, only a persons actions can damage their reputation.

Thank you for the reply meremortal. As a matter of fact since I embarassed her and ruined her reputation she wants me out by the middle of August. She is livid that I am remaining so non commital about moving out. I am remaining non confrontational and very methodical in all that I am doing.

bcboy,

Make no move to leave...

Be very careful that you give her nothing she can use to try to get you removed by the cops...

Maintain control over your actions, your voice and your words so as not to give her ANYTHING to use against you...

Mark