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Dino69 Offline OP
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I know I know, things are never black white. That is killing me. I really like to know where I am, you know?

Snuggle, I've been thinking about this time thing alot lately. It's been awhile since all of this has come to light. Am I doing ok? I mean, time-wise am I (or we) proceeding at a pace that is pretty common in these situations? i don't read them anymore, but some of the stories I read here, it seems like people get started and progress more when compared to how we are doing. Granted that's because both people are participating but I can't believe that I'm in a "unique" situation. Can it really take this much time for her to make the decision whether or not she wants to try? I'm never going to be able to read her mind, but to me, stay or go is probably the easiest of all the million questions we're going to have to answer over the next year. What can she possibly be waiting for Snuggle? I mean, if I'm really making her as unhappy as she says, what is keeping her? I'm glad she hasn't left but I also don't wish her to stay for the wrong reasons, I've told her this.

I'm still sad and lonely. Just inside my heart though. I'm doing pretty well all in all. She still doesn't touch or kiss me, it's depressing. She doesn't tell me she loves me to my face. I get jealous when I hear her say it to my kids, is that wrong of me? I still miss her alot.

As far as the sex thing, I'm surprised I haven't gone off the deep end on that. Besides being a kid, I've never come close to going this long without. I don't think about it much. I miss the intimacy with her but I don't crave the physical act as much as I thought I would. The emotional thing is what hurts the most. Although it's not an issue right now, it could definitely be in the future. Would it be shallow to base the success of your marriage on sex? I sometimes think it would but I have also felt the pain of dealing with the lack of physical affection and it's not a healthy thing. Man there is so much conflicting information gonig through my head.

I want to stay married to my wife, I love her. I want us both to be happy, I want my kids to keep their parents together and I want to grow old with her. Thats all I want out of life. I can't see it being any simpler than that but it all seems so complicated. Everything else I do in life revolves around those wants. I don't know if that is a realistic thing or not but for the moment, there is nothing more important to me than that, nothing.


FWH/BS (me)42, FBS/WW 39, married 18 yrs, WW A discovered 3/03/2008, my A discovered 06/2003
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About thinking you know what your wife is thinking:

I have it on good authority that every human being suffers from doubt and self-recrimination and fear. Most actions that you see anyone take are usually based on one of those. Fear of being judged, rejected, ridiculed, blamed, disappointing... I hear in your W's words that she is acting through such thoughts. If you can readjust what you see from her, it might help you reach a better place with her. For instance, I used to think my H was very outgoing and sure of himself; after 30 years, I've realized he has an enormous sense of not being as good as everyone else, so he tries to overcome it with his work and words; but at the end, he's still shaking in his boots that someone will discover the 'ugly truth' - that he's not as worthy as everyone else.

I think your W suffers from the same ugly truth syndrome, especially after what's happened. I see her not being willing to give you another try as her fear and guilt not allowing her to put herself out there so you can crush her, as she so rightly deserves (in her mind). Perhaps the best thing you can do is make her feel safe.

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Dino69 Offline OP
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I'm really doing all I can think of to make her feel safe cat, i really am. I think I go out of my way even, to help her realize that I am not out to get her or that she needs to think of me as an enemy. I don't want her to fear me for any reason but I think you're absolutely right, she is afraid. One of the reasons I moved out of the bed is so that she wouldn't feel the slightest pressure from me about physical touch or otherwise. I remove all pressure form her concerning house or kids, she is living a quite comfortable life right now. I try not to guess her thinking, I'd be a fool to try. I've never been right before, why would I start now?

You know, everything I need to do goes against every human instinct I know. I love her but I shouldn't feel bad if she doesn't love me back. I should make her feel safe while I am attacked daily. I should be patient while she takes the time she needs to figure out if I'm even in her future, but I'm also not supposed to think about the future. I should try to fulfill what emotional needs she allows me to fill while simultaneously existing without a single one of my emotional needs being filled by anyone.

I think she is haunted by some things cat,many things, but I've also told her that we don't have to sacrifice our whole way of life because of some mistakes. I made them, you made them, now lets learn and move on, she stuck. I'm deathly afraid that she may verywell let our marriage die to help her cope with the things she's done. She has, of course, rewritten our whole marriage. It was always been bad and she was always been unhappy. We've never been supportive of each other, I've never done anything that a husband should do. She's been faking it all these years and the only thing that kept her around was our kids but they are old enougt that they don't need her anymore so she has no reason to stay, so she says.

I just want to move ahead, i wish she could see that.


FWH/BS (me)42, FBS/WW 39, married 18 yrs, WW A discovered 3/03/2008, my A discovered 06/2003
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 Quote:
One of the reasons I moved out of the bed is so that she wouldn't feel the slightest pressure from me about physical touch or otherwise. I remove all pressure form her concerning house or kids, she is living a quite comfortable life right now. I try not to guess her thinking, I'd be a fool to try. I've never been right before, why would I start now?


Please correct me if I'm wrong...are you saying you're overdoing now? That only leaves room for her to under-do. Which means she won't have FEELINGS as a result of her acts of love.

Acts of love aren't pressure...if you're excluding her because you DJ pressure, then you're breaking the connection which comes from her acts of DS, FC. I hope I'm wrong. Overdoing is NOT love...it's about control.

And it interferes with her relationship with her kids, too.

Now, she's half of allowing it, if this is the case. Seems to me you are doing her thinking for her in this regard, though you believe would be a fool to do so.

Gosh, so many shoulds in your second paragraph.

How are you attacked daily?

You chose this route, Dino...you chose to not go to Plan B when it was time...you chose to do this and your last post sounds to me like a victim without choice. Being done to rather than choosing.

That's what I hear.

About her faking it..."I hear you saying you chose to lie to me every day of our marriage, is that correct?"

Bring reality...really tough when you lose your grip on it. Treat her as the equally able, competent person she is...show her choices, not her viewpoint, 'k? Stop overdoing...and don't underdo...again, you remain living in lies as long as you do not tell your kids.

Hawaii is coming up...are you still choosing to expose then?

Listen to the fog...her kids don't need her anymore when this is the time they need their parents the most. The time when they are rebelling against the world to define who they are...very critical time...and no safe place to fall.

LA

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Hey Dino! How was your day?

To answer your first question, I think you are doing just fine. I don't think your situation is unique in the sense that only one person in the relationship is actively applying MB techniques or wholeheartedly trying to save the marriage. I've read other threads here that seem to be in a similar situation. I think you are probably just noticing more the threads where it seems like the relationship is progressing quickly ... they are probably of more interest to you, so it just SEEMS like that, but if you read all the threads, you'd see it is just one small sliver of the relationship universe.

As an objective observer, I don't find it that strange that your wife has still not made a decision. This is mostly because of the stress she's been under at work and because of your upcoming move back to the U.S. I know for me, having big things like that hanging over my head make it hard to want to take on more big things (such as working on the marriage), so if I could I would delay it until I got one or more of the other big things off my plate. I think she's waiting for the move to be over. I don't think she'll stay for the wrong reasons. She's been through too much to do that now.

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I mean, if I'm really making her as unhappy as she says, what is keeping her?


Ok, here's another great example of you falling into black/white thinking. In your statement here, either you make her unhappy or not. Actually though you make her unhappy sometimes ... happy other times. Wouldn't you agree that is closer to the truth? And if that is the truth, then you can see what is keeping her ... the weight of the happy times versus the weight of the unhappy times. So like Steve Harley told you, you're job is to make the happy times weigh more. Your wife's no dummy, if she thinks it's likely that she could have more happy times, she'll be there.

I've heard that a lot of dads sometimes feel jealous of their kids for taking away their wives' attention/love. It's probably not good, but I think as long as you don't act on it, it's ok to have negative feelings. It's something to examine and could lead to a better understanding of yourself.

Well with regard to the sex thing, I think you will survive just fine. I'm sure there must have been millions of men who have gone much longer without for various reasons. My grandparents were separated for 20 years, so it could be A LOT worse! And yes I personally do think it would be shallow to base the success of your marriage on sex. What if one of you were hurt in such a way that sex just wasn't even possible? Would you leave your wife over that? I know people do, but I can't help thinking they must never had had real love in their marriage to be so callous. It's just my opinion, so if you feel differently that is ok too.

Take it easy and take good care of yourself Dino!

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 Quote:
Please correct me if I'm wrong...are you saying you're overdoing now? That only leaves room for her to under-do. Which means she won't have FEELINGS as a result of her acts of love.

Acts of love aren't pressure...if you're excluding her because you DJ pressure, then you're breaking the connection which comes from her acts of DS, FC. I hope I'm wrong. Overdoing is NOT love...it's about control.

And it interferes with her relationship with her kids, too.
Sorry LA, but I'm not comprehending what you're asking here. I don't know DS, FC, I'm sorry. I don't know what you mean by me excluding her? And I'm not quite sure of the acts of love you refer to. Are you saying that me staying in the bed with her is an act of love? Sorry LA, maybe I'm just a little slow today but I'm really confused right now.
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And it interferes with her relationship with her kids, too.
Not quite sure how this relates either. Her relationship with the kids seems perfectly fine. Obviously I don't know whats going through their minds but they seem healthy and happy.
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You chose this route, Dino...you chose to not go to Plan B when it was time...you chose to do this and your last post sounds to me like a victim without choice. Being done to rather than choosing.
You're right about this part but I do have some questions. I assumed Plan B included the children correct? I'm kind of fuzzy on that, I could've moved out without the kids but that would only have punished myself and the kids. Regardless of any of that, I did choose my path and I am dealing with consequences and I accept that.
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About her faking it..."I hear you saying you chose to lie to me every day of our marriage, is that correct?"
That is a great line, I'll use it next time she uses her line.
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Bring reality...really tough when you lose your grip on it. Treat her as the equally able, competent person she is...show her choices, not her viewpoint, 'k? Stop overdoing...and don't underdo...again, you remain living in lies as long as you do not tell your kids.

Hawaii is coming up...are you still choosing to expose then?
I am going to expose in Hawaii. I'm going to wait until after the wedding, it would be seflish of me to bring gloom to the family before we celebrate the wedding of my brother and sister. We'll see where it goes from there.
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Listen to the fog...her kids don't need her anymore when this is the time they need their parents the most. The time when they are rebelling against the world to define who they are...very critical time...and no safe place to fall.
I hear you on this one, it's her "woe is me" statement and all fog about the marriage.

She's in a different place LA. I wish I could do better but I'm no expert and I can't help but be a little emotional about all of this. I really appreciate you guys being here to slap me around when I need it. I definitely haven't been doing my best work over the last week or so. It's really hard for me to communicate with her when she keeps me at arms length all the time. There is nothing LA, nothing right now. I don't know what to do because we aren't DOING anything but living day to day. I think there is an assumption that we are working together towards something but that is not the case, we haven't agreed to do anything but wait and SEE what happens.

I can't tell the future but I've decided to plan my future regardless of her intent. I'm getting ready to retire within 2 yrs, I have to get started now. I was going to postpose buying a house until we had US figured out but I'm not waiting. I'm going to buy my house for the kids and I since they are going to Arizona, I don't really mind if she stays there too especially until I retire and join them. I told her last night that I can qualify for the home own my own and that she didn't need to obligate herself to a mortgage is she didn't want to.

I'm trying. I hope I haven't sounded brash or unappreciative. I would be lost without your help LA. I have to take a little at a time, hopefully more steps forward than back.

thanks again


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 Quote:
One of the reasons I moved out of the bed is so that she wouldn't feel the slightest pressure from me about physical touch or otherwise. I remove all pressure form her concerning house or kids, she is living a quite comfortable life right now. I try not to guess her thinking, I'd be a fool to try. I've never been right before, why would I start now?


Here's where I heard you over-doing. Quite a comfortable life...through my filter, that means you the domestic service (DS), family commitment (FC)...which is interacting with the kids, problem-solving, playing, supervising chores, etc.

EN list...SF, FS, FC, DS, RC, etc.

Does thinking you would look like a fool (or be one) stop you from doing harm to others and yourself?

(I ask because it is a romanticized notion to be a fool for love, a fool to fight for your marriage, foolish to want, need, feel...etc.)

Would you say she's doing half the chores, meal preparations, housework, time connecting with the kids both in fun and structured work? You've mentioned family time together...an outing together in rare nice weather...so I guess I don't know what you mean that she's living very comfortably right now...I infer she wasn't before deployment, did the majority of DS and FC and worked, too. That's my mind at work.

What pressure do you really believe you can remove? Do you mean SD's...Selfish Demands? Ultimatums? Pressure to talk about R (you said this was at once a month roughly, is that correct?), to recommit, to stop her A? If the last, why would you stop asking for that and continuing exposure with each contact...to bust up the A? As long as their is contact, then she cannot get clear of the fog nor commit to the marriage. Committing to real NC is big, Dino. You already know this and you've chosen to not pursue that avenue.

It's gonna hurt and rile you...swing you back and forth to the extremes and you're going to feel your love bank plummet. That's what I see you doing right now.

Not faults...choices.

As for what I said about the kids' relationship...they are being lied to by her and you every day. They don't see her acting affectionately, bonding or committed. She isn't acting respectful of them or you...all tied together...and they, too, are in limbo land...don't know if you guys are going to work it out or not...so at times, they continue the lie to themselves...this is nothing...I'm seeing this wrong...when they hurt for you...for her...and fear as much as you do for their future as a family.

A's hurt everyone's relationship. You may see theirs as healthy...might be as healthy as you feel yours is...when they find out you both were actively lying to them for 18 months, it's gonna hurt a lot. I know you know this.

Just as you read here when the WH doesn't reveal his past A's for five, ten, 15 years...hurts more than it would have at the time...humans recognized they've been duped, manipulated and controlled through lies by omission as much as commission. They knew you had to choose not to include them in reality in their family; just as WS's choose not to in their marriage. To protect their spouses, though the damage is already there, felt and done...the explanation is not. The truth is obscured.

Plan B is where you have no contact with WW except filtered through an intermediary. Your kids still see WW...you arrange for pick ups and drop offs without visual or audible contact. The kids do not Plan B their mother. They may choose to not see her (your kids' ages) or not, when finally told the truth. Usually, they still want to visit the wayward parent.

They have separate means of contacting and being contacted by the WS--not through you. You tell your kids what you are doing and why...just like you write the way back letter, the Plan B letter, saying what you're doing, why you're doing it (to save your marriage) and the steps she can choose to do to come back to the marriage. It's a love letter.

Your kids will feel punished for a crime they didn't commit because of your WW's adultery. Those consequences continue...and you will feel punished, as well...up to KNOW what you're doing and why...I don't believe you ever asked your WW to leave, did you? First came the court proceedings, then OM's...now all over(?) and then the decision to wait until after returning to the US to decide...that's all my perception.

Are you saying you asked her to leave and she wouldn't...so your only choice would have been to move out and leave the kids? Hence, you guys feeling punished again for her choice to have an A? And that's why you did not go to Plan B?

I don't believe you can go to Plan B without telling your children the truth. You are planning exposure to extended family after the wedding, while on the family trip, correct? So you are asking your WW to move out while still in London, for September and October...to go to Plan B?

You are so powerful in your own mind...you gonna bring gloom and doom to a wedding because your wife committed adultery? I'm challenging you to hear yourself, because your brain constantly listens to you and believes you are that powerful, and in turn, so is she...all humans. They can pressure someone into a decision they will regret...we make many choices we regret...no one has the power to pressure us...we can definitely feel pressure on our decisions.

We can mourn this murder of your marriage when we hear about it, too...can feel fearful, gloomy, even...doesn't mean your honesty did that to us...means KNOWING the truth, which breaks our assumptions, our beliefs you had some great, strong marriage going does that.

An aside...your brother and sister are getting married????

LOL

Is this a double wedding...your brother marrying someone else, at the same time and place your sister is marrying someone else?

You chose to have one session with Steve Harley. How 'bout another one? Share your plans for Hawaii, for exposure, for Plan B, checking to see if you're over-doing or not, and how not informing your teenagers about their mother's infidelity, which may influence or not their choices of whom they choose to live with--run it all by him again and get his opinion...that way you will have expert information, too.

Why would you offer to your WW to allow her to live in a house you buy on your own as she continues to attack your marriage? Why would you do that? Seriously...trace your thought processes...you've already protected and kept secret her affair for eight months, you've funded their calls and continued contact, are you truly going to offer to support her wayward state of mind and acts against your marriage, too?

Or are you looking for a tenant...said you'd buy in Arizona for retirement preparation, while being stationed in NM, nine hours away, so is this using her to live with the kids at "your house" so that you're not renting it out? Or have I got the locations confused...you're going to buy a house in NM and are asking WW to come live with the kids and you there?

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I definitely haven't been doing my best work over the last week or so. It's really hard for me to communicate with her when she keeps me at arms length all the time.


Do you hear you basing your ability on her response? You either share or you don't share...your choice. Even sharing, "Because I feel shut out, arm's length by you, my wife, I am choosing to add to my betrayal by not informing you of my thoughts, do not hold myself to respectfully communicating. I feel punished for your affair, rejected and excluded right now."

You do and you don't do...and you're not doing based on her rejection. Which doubles the rejection in you, doesn't it? She's doing it to you and you're doing it to yourself...tons of hurt in that. You're not safe for yourself, are you?

Not faults...choices. You are capable...not a thing wrong with you...you gaslighting yourself hurts...can be seen...your lines are all tangled up and that urges you to base your words and actions on possible response again...right back into the trap again you have broken free from more than once.

Break free again.

If you meant you don't communicate because your choice to see her keeping you at arm's length gets you really reactive, I understand. Stop thinking that. "She's not touching me right now." That's fact. The rest is your stab at your self.

You can focus on her staying present to hear you--won't happen if you don't speak. You can permit yourself to own your experience, "I experience you as purposefully disconnecting from me and shutting me out in this conversation right now, is that what you're doing?"

You state your appreciation and I believe you feel appreciative.

You can sound brash, rejecting, offended and angry. What has that to do with appreciation? You can feel all those things and it doesn't mean I'm sharing to make you feel any of those things or to obtain your appreciation. Clarity is HARD for me. This is great practice.

Have you seen on YouTube "The Last Lecture" by Randy Paush? I saw a thread about his passing last Friday and last night, a story about him on 20/20. Want to make a deal and watch it? Could make it a family thing together? I'm going to ask my DH to watch it with me tomorrow night.

I believe you don't want to appear brash, resistant, discounting or dismissive. I didn't want to appear so all the years I was actually provocative, resistant, discounting and dismissive of my DH, reality, The Marriage and myself, either.

Get your own signals, Dino. You're worth it. Only you can get yours...and I can share what they meant to me...my feelings of rejection mostly came from me rejecting my situation and myself, through DJs and not being present.

About the Plan B steps as a way back...keep in mind the overdoing/underdoing...for when a WS chooses to earn their F, if there are no steps back to the marriage, there is no redemption either. What you require in order for you to commit to recovery is equally important to the WS for their personal recovery (which you have no influence over).

Which is why you clear up your lines and do not offer to financially or emotionally support a WS in their A. Not by shelter, food, clothes, vehicles or cash. Don't do it. Don't sabotage her, 'k?

LA

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LA, after I read your posts, I feel like an a$$ sometimes because your response makes me realize how much over-reacting I do. Or over analyzing. I have to apologize to you because i may have misled you with my whining and may have caused yu to believe I am suffering a terrible fate here when in truth, I can be thankful for how things are right now. I hope I'm not throwing you for a loop. It's just that when I get in that frame of mind, the "everything is terrible, black or white" type of mindset, I do feel terrible and I vent here and stomp around and tell you guys how horrible my life is. Then you guys post to me and give me your guidance and help and when I read what you have to say, I realize that things aren't as bad as I made them out to be. I feel like a heel for getting you guys all spun up. Don't get me wrong, I do feel terrible everyday, but not because of things she does, or specific things. I'm upset because of the whole thing, how our life is upsidedown right now. My wife is doing what she can, she is lost. I'm not over-doing anything I don't think, i may overreact to things, my patience fails me sometimes and I want things to be good NOW, but our house is not a war zone.
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Would you say she's doing half the chores, meal preparations, housework, time connecting with the kids both in fun and structured work? You've mentioned family time together...an outing together in rare nice weather...so I guess I don't know what you mean that she's living very comfortably right now...I infer she wasn't before deployment, did the majority of DS and FC and worked, too. That's my mind at work.
That may have been a selfish comment. Our load in our house has always been fairly equal for the last few years. Obviously early in our marriage I was the same as most young husbands, but I got my act together. I think I'm doing more right now because of her work schedule, and I don't mid in the least nor does it cause any heartburn for me, I'd do it anyway. Nothing much different from before her deployment other than me not DJ, LB or AOing her. I don't know what I mean about pressure. I just want her to feel safe around me, I guess thats what I mean. I want her to feel like she is free to make a decision about us for herself. Not because of other reasons, like kids, or whatever. I know I don't control what she feels, but I do control me and my actions.
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Are you saying you asked her to leave and she wouldn't...so your only choice would have been to move out and leave the kids? Hence, you guys feeling punished again for her choice to have an A? And that's why you did not go to Plan B?
That's pretty much it in a nutshell. I can't make her do anything, and I didn't want to leave my kids. I'm still not ready for Plan B anyway.
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I don't believe you can go to Plan B without telling your children the truth. You are planning exposure to extended family after the wedding, while on the family trip, correct? So you are asking your WW to move out while still in London, for September and October...to go to Plan B?

You are so powerful in your own mind...you gonna bring gloom and doom to a wedding because your wife committed adultery? I'm challenging you to hear yourself, because your brain constantly listens to you and believes you are that powerful, and in turn, so is she...all humans. They can pressure someone into a decision they will regret...we make many choices we regret...no one has the power to pressure us...we can definitely feel pressure on our decisions.
I am planning to tell some family members but I'm not asking her to move out. I just don't want to do it before the wedding, our family is close, they will worry about us and I don't want to take anything away from the celebration. It has nothing to do with power. Do you mean to tell me it should be ok to tell everyone in our family that we are on the verge of divorce, that her and I did terrible things and lied to everyone right before a wedding for my brother-in-law when the whole family is getting together for the first time in years? It's ok for everyone to feel for our situation instead of focusing on the happiness and joy of the new couple? I shouldn't take that into account and wait for a better time? I don't get that at all.
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Why would you offer to your WW to allow her to live in a house you buy on your own as she continues to attack your marriage? Why would you do that? Seriously...trace your thought processes...you've already protected and kept secret her affair for eight months, you've funded their calls and continued contact, are you truly going to offer to support her wayward state of mind and acts against your marriage, too?
Sorry LA, I may use words in the wrong context sometimes. My wife doesn't do anything, therfore she doesn't attack our marriage, that I know of. When I said attack, I was being childish because I feel she attacks me by not showing me affection, stupid right? I couldn't afford to buy the house on my own, the only way were going to buy is if she is a co-borrower with me. If she isn't committed to being a partner with me on this, I won't have a choice but to wait. We've talked about it, I asked her if seh was willing to take this chance, she seems to be, so I have to take that as a positive sign.
 Quote:
About the Plan B steps as a way back...keep in mind the overdoing/underdoing...for when a WS chooses to earn their F, if there are no steps back to the marriage, there is no redemption either. What you require in order for you to commit to recovery is equally important to the WS for their personal recovery (which you have no influence over).

Which is why you clear up your lines and do not offer to financially or emotionally support a WS in their A. Not by shelter, food, clothes, vehicles or cash. Don't do it. Don't sabotage her, 'k?
I don't think I'm ready for plan B yet. We're still feeling things out LA. I'm very reactive and I have to stop it. Your advice resonates with me so much. Like I said, when I read your posts, it makes me realize how bad it really ISN'T. I guess getting that is a good thing in itself. I wish I could send you some "big brother" style tapes of what happens around our house on a daily basis. You probably want to slap me LA, ask me what I'm whining about, telling me to be patient and take it slow. I've always been like that, if I want something, I want it now, no waiting, or I'll want something else if I can't get it. I have to be careful.

I just want more, faster. I don't know the future for us, if I think about it I get riled up, if I look at what happens day to day, it seems better. I wish the day to day things were better but right now they are not, I can accept that.

she's still here
we're planning together
we're going to buy a house
we're getting along
my kids still have their parents together

Thanks enough to be thankful for right now...

Thanks again LA


FWH/BS (me)42, FBS/WW 39, married 18 yrs, WW A discovered 3/03/2008, my A discovered 06/2003
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 8,970
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 Quote:
LA, after I read your posts, I feel like an a$$ sometimes because your response makes me realize how much over-reacting I do. Or over analyzing. I have to apologize to you because i may have misled you with my whining and may have caused yu to believe I am suffering a terrible fate here when in truth, I can be thankful for how things are right now.


You're apologizing for supposedly misleading me, is that correct?

I relate from very much to your over-reaction/analyzation...I would use hyperbole as a louder, more visible-shocking signal when I wasn't paying attention to my more subtle signals. For me, it was like throwing a tantrum to get my own attention.

I believe whining is for manipulation with the intent to inform. Again, we want to ramp it up for resolution...get our pain stopped. And we can't get our own attention to change our CHOICE of perspective, our perception...until we do.

You are in a rough patch of life. No doubt. When you look to your gratitude, that's you choosing a different perspective...and experiencing thankfulness...which includes YOU.

Feeling like an a$$--does that mean you feel like others are sitting on you? Or are we back to the fool feeling again...because we go in and out of our healthy perspectives...we do spiral and we do stop our spirals. All practice. All necessary. You may definitely feel like an a$$ if you're choosing to see yourself as the cause of other poster's reactions, their stuff, their feelings...stealing their time.

You're just not that powerful.

Great signal, though, huh, if that's why you temporarily feel like a patootie.

Those who post to you RELATE to you...because we've been there, done-felt-experienced just what you described...and share what we learned. You were suffering. And now you're not. Nothing has changed except your choice of thoughts, expectations, perspective...your perception of your present, is that correct?

 Quote:
I realize that things aren't as bad as I made them out to be. I feel like a heel for getting you guys all spun up. Don't get me wrong, I do feel terrible everyday, but not because of things she does, or specific things. I'm upset because of the whole thing, how our life is upsidedown right now.


Things are as you experience them...you are the cause, control and cure for your own experience. I hear you saying you want to present a more balanced picture...believe you haven't over the last couple of weeks. Would you consider you are striving within yourself for balance?

 Quote:
My wife is doing what she can, she is lost.


This is a lie. Is she telling you this lie and so you are choosing to believe the lie and pass it on to us, or is this your lie to you tell yourself?

Do you want to know why you get so spun up in your pain you make yourself suffer? Do you want to see your own self-manipulation as much as you want to see how you manipulate others?

To know not to judge?

What is wrong with your I-statments?

"I don't want to be in this situation right now, and I am."
"I want things to be resolved right now, right away."
"I want to experience affection, love, recommitment and partnership with my wife again."
"I feel pain, frustration, rejection, helplessness right now."

No hyperbole or suffering. No a$$ in evidence. Sharing information you glean from yourself, about yourself, so you can see your stuff, know your stuff and trace it.

See, that's an act of self-love, taking responsibility for what is solely your responsibility.

Gotta tell you, I sure needed MBers to point out my lies to self and my WH when I heard or told them. Self-deception is tough to discern in ourselves for obvious reasons.

 Quote:
That may have been a selfish comment. Our load in our house has always been fairly equal for the last few years.


I didn't ask it to get you to judge yourself selfish. I asked for the reality so you understand where your belief comes from. Could it be your original perspective that you're making life comfortable for her, meeting her ENs and eliminating the LBs; keeping at meeting those DS, FC ENs...even though she doesn't deserve it right now? Hasn't for 18 months? Because while you did it all when she was deployed, she was having an A (a casualty of war, you said); and since her return, has continued contact, no matter what consequences have come, and not recommitted to the marriage...and still, you are acting from your choice to love, anyway.

Significant, not selfish. She's still acting from love, too, btw...she's doing her stuff, which does meet some of your ENs, too...and the loudest screaming one is the one not met. We get that. And I want you to thank and be grateful for your choice to act from love not based on possible response right now.

You're teaching yourself how humans REALLY love...not how you were taught. You're breaking really old stuff...so you're going to fear and rile up and feel deep anger and rejection...you're rejecting your old ways of loving (giving to get, earning security and love, and deserved punishment).

Think about it...the old you would be yelling "This isn't fair!" and the new you, the one you're choosing to be right now, says, "Hey, it's my choice to love...not in her control. I want my marriage. I want to recover. These are my choices, not hers, not based on her response." Heck, if they were, I think you would have moved out three months ago, wouldn't you have?

"I want her to feel safe around me and I'm only half of that reality." You keep your eye on your LBs, your own boundaries (around you) and you will be doing your half. Doesn't mean she'll feel safe...trace your desire to see if your perception of her not feeling safe is left over from pre-A you or not. For pete's sake (this is me acting out) she was in a real warzone while having her A...how unsafe are you, really?

Don't give yourself more power or less than you have, 'k?

Her own guilt, shame, justifications, resentment and entitlement can be used to see you as unsafe when you are safe; remember she can do to her and point at you. Not in your control.

She has been free, is and always will be free to make her own decisions. You are not that powerful. You do NOT have the power to pressure, to influence her beyond what she allows...she controls her door of influence...by whom and how much. So do you. Human design.

You may wish to have more influence, fear MAKING her feel anything...because you want to cause so you can cure. Get to know your own thoughts and wishes...they are yours---truly about you, signals, waiting for you to notice, receive, trace and understand. Do it for The Marriage, 'k?

I will say this again...if you believe judging yourself or her will bring you clarity, resolution, righteousness in the place of connection...protect you in some way...then you are lying to yourself. Judgment has the majority of our false payoffs built in...it is fantasy. We can only judge actions...see where you judged her lost, you an a$$, your posts/stuff as over-reactive...when you drop your tool of judgment and reach for discernment, you stop living in fantasy...which is part of the downward spiral spin. We make ourselves dizzy with it.

When we feel pressured and want to feel safe, we reach for judgment...which includes comparison, prediction, the past and the future...fantasy. Would you consider we can compare like objects and not people?

I believe much of what you're saying you want for your WW you mean for yourself, signalling you that you are pressuring yourself and feeling pressured, have a great desire to feel safe, and want to judge yourself safe, prove it, and the same for safe.

I'm glad your patience fails you sometimes...I'm hoping it's the unhealthy part of it breaking your self-deceptive grip.

It's okay for your WW to choose to recommit to The Marriage, go NC and end her A, for the sake of the kids right now. Because they are the last shred of reality she can grasp. You know that after NC is really in place, she'll finally go through withdrawal and then begin to see more reality---breaking the fog means breaking her previous justifications...and then you become real again...not a justification generator for her. Then she can see the man who was the lighthouse, who stood for The Marriage when she was bombing it with both hands.

Then you're real...and The Marriage becomes real...and recovery begins. Don't DJ her stuff--see her real choices...if she chooses the marriage or if she doesn't, 'k?

About her not moving out when you asked her to leave awhile ago...I'm going to question you on that so you can see wider options today (can't change one thing in the past), 'k? Per Harley, you were doing a great Plan A for three, four months, five months, before you felt yourself losing your final remnants of love in the face of her continued contact, is that correct? Reasonable enough time of Plan A to go to Plan B...ready or not.

So in asking her to do the decent thing and move out, whichever she could, and to use an intermediary to contact you through in regards to the kids...I know you're in England, different rules...you could have filed for a restraining order from the military or the local court to get her to move out...because she was in direct violation of THEIR NC rule and you knew she was. You chose not to do this because you didn't feel ready for Plan B and did not want to risk your WW going to prison (how would that help the marriage, you said). I push on this for two reasons...

When you keep reaching, wanting power you don't have it's usually because you're giving your real power away somewhere...in choosing to not see reality, in this case.

You chose not to act (still a choice) based on fear...based on your feelings instead of your beliefs. She had an A based on her feelings, not her beliefs. How's that working for y'all?

I'm still seeing it...you both buying into deception...and I'm yelling at you, Dino, because you're the one NOT on the drug, the only hero in sight. Do not deceive yourself. Your job is to see, hold and bring reality...even if you've used fantasy coping skills for all your life...I want you to do this, anyway.

Plan B is part of Plan Recovery...a necessary one. An essential one for BS's who are as self-deceptive as their WS. You do the Plans because you no longer want to live life backwards from your feelings...you believe if you allow your bank to be robbed daily by your WS, then it's up to you to protect your bank.

Not reacting to your feelings (hope you see the difference because in this regard, it's tough), acting from your beliefs. You believe you and your wife can recover from her A and from yours, heal fully and fall in love with each other from following Harley's rules of care, honesty, time and protection, correct? And that's you acting from your belief by staying, not leaving, not react to your feelings of hopelessness, despair or rejection.

How 'bout that?

So when you chose not to do, you were reacting to your feelings, not your beliefs. That's how we get in the way of the very consequences which may have saved our marriage...how we BLOCK reality instead of bringing it.

And then we rewrite our short history and say we couldn't...wasn't an option...which is what our brain hears and believes...so it doesn't present Plan B as an option.

Plan B saves marriages. Plans only work when you work them.

Your personal recovery is paramount. Which is why I post and repeat, remind--not because you're not acting like I want you to, nor making the choices I want you to...because I'm bringing you reality to the best of my ability...when you see your choices as they truly are, you see reality.

I'm standing for your marriage and your personal recovery. One is all yours...the others everyone on your thread is standing for, too. You're not alone.

Would you consider no one is ready for infidelity? You aren't ready for Plan A, for exposure, for this heartbreaking experience...and it comes, anyway...we don't get a choice...WS made the choice...our choices are in how we respond, if we recover personally, and half of our marital recovery. We aren't ready, really, for Plan B. It's a choice we make from our beliefs. We feel terrified even while we prepare for doing it, anyway.

All others who love you to worry--there's reason to. Your marriage is smashed to bits by infidelity. Excluding them from reality won't change those bits to unsmashed. Excluding them from knowledge means you want to be not told of their stuff, either...like when they get hit with cancer, car wrecks...when someon embezzles or cheats on their partner...which is all actually the opposite of the "close" family you say you have.

You want to control their reactions, change their feelings and thoughts...their stuff. That's what I hear. And you don't want to ask your WW to move out without the kids so you can protect the remaining love you have for her. Because every single day she is actively choosing the A and not her marriage. That's reality. She is not lost. She's making a choice...see her choice as it is...don't buy into her fog anymore.

It's okay for you to choose not to Plan B, limitedly expose, wait until after the wedding or after your divorce...or moving to the US...where you say you are separating, anyway (that's my perception). This is your life, your choices and power. My prayer is for you to choose from clarity, solid clarity (I know that's silly)...to change your life patterns and be free, so you can heal, no matter what she chooses...you choose to recover.

The better time to have told your family was in January when you found out. The better time was in June when you knew what the military decided as her consequences. The better time was always before and there were reasons you chose not to--I understand not stealing focus, thunder, etc...very understandable way to think...because of your previous decisions to not share, not expose, not include...this is now...and it feels like you're backed into a corner and it's one of your own choosing.

I want you to see clearly how you got yourself there, how it's one choice at a time, not one big choice at a time. Do you think maybe you fear them looking at you with disapproval for your choices, your timing if you did--and if you wait until awhile afterward, then they will view you more kindly, as a better person, for having waited eight, nine, ten months...never? An act of kindness?

I'm working this through with you...if you want to experience Openness and Honesty, connection, approval, acceptance...you gotta practice them. Period. No one can make you experience any of those, no matter what they do or when, until you do them yourself. Until you live from them, you won't live in them.

 Quote:
Sorry LA, I may use words in the wrong context sometimes. My wife doesn't do anything, therfore she doesn't attack our marriage, that I know of. When I said attack, I was being childish because I feel she attacks me by not showing me affection, stupid right? I couldn't afford to buy the house on my own, the only way were going to buy is if she is a co-borrower with me. If she isn't committed to being a partner with me on this, I won't have a choice but to wait. We've talked about it, I asked her if seh was willing to take this chance, she seems to be, so I have to take that as a positive sign.


I'm hearing that you are positive, have proof that she is no longer in contact with OM in anyway, so she has chosen to truly end her A, is that correct? I'm the one who believes she attacks your real union every moment she's "lost" in fantasy...does harm...to you, the marriage and your family. Every moment she DOESN'T recommit to your marriage because that's the only right thing to do, her only way of amends and redemption...she attacks your union. You weren't being childish.

Every day she has not recommitted is an attack. She's choosing to attack...please see this clearly. She is teaching your children to react to their feelings, choose their life from temporary signals...the exact opposite of what you've taught them.

They don't get to beat Timmy senseless because Timmy hurt their feelings. They don't get to shoplift because they needed it and it was there. They don't get to hit you, their father, over the head with a frying pan because you said they couldn't stay out until 4am on a Thursday night. All are reactions to their feelings...so it's okay for Mommy to not choose the union she vowed to because she doesn't feel like it right now.

Unhealthy, harmful and destructive. I call that an attack.

We have to act bigger than we believe we are today; stronger, braver and truer...with our focus on our choices...to save our marriages and live from our beliefs. You've done that time and time again...and when you choose not to...you're choosing, too.

And you spiral, react, over-analyze (which is great if you're looking at you, and a downward spiral when your focus is on HER)...as signals. You chose not to act from your beliefs.

I don't know why you're talking about buying a house together before a recommitment. Would it be great, her being your co-borrower, getting that house...and her moving in her next OM? Huh? Wouldn't that be peachy? See, then you WOULD move out in NM, and she'd get the house to herself with you having to pay off...afterall, it's yours, too...right? Only they get the whole house, the kids and you're a visitor in your own dreams.

Don't do anything before she recommits to the marriage through NC for life, transparency and counseling. Make it a post-nuptial contract...and then, if you want to buy a house together (and you distinctly said you could afford one on your own...what's with the lying?), there's a clause that says either one of you will only be entitled to 1/4 of all family assets if either of you participate in infidelity in anyway (putting any third party into your marriage).

When you leave the door open to contact your AP "if things don't work out in your marriage" or "if BH really ticks me off" or "If I can't get OM out of my head...hence, must be real"...then you are attacking your marriage, are you not? The Marriage is real...a real union...affairs are fantasy.

Coming out of the fog. "I feel lost and confused. I know I'm choosing by not choosing our marriage."

"You're calling the shots--I'm going along to keep peace and be nice. I'm afraid you'll leave me behind because I'm worthless. I'm also afraid to recommit and do you more harm. I don't know what the right thing to do is." Fog statements.

Don't divine signs from her...get your own signals, to you, about you, from you. Know right now what is reality and what isn't...okay not to know her signs...she may change her mind 15 times on the house and back again. We don't know and cannot know...her word is no longer true, or honorable or real right now. She's lost, remember?

 Quote:
I've always been like that, if I want something, I want it now, no waiting, or I'll want something else if I can't get it. I have to be careful.


This is the very reason I post to you, Dino. That was me. I wanted what I wanted, when I wanted it and in the way I wanted...and to manipulate, connivive, distract to cope, and self-deceive to sustain. I get that. Let me ask you what I asked myself...

is that really who you are?

Was it ever? Or was it the only way you felt visible, significant, deserving, whole, real?

When you are in the present moment, every thing seems better.

That's true for every single human on the planet at any time. It's in our design. Not your flaw/fault you go where you have no control...the future/the past...your choice.

Thank you so much for pursuing, communicating, continuing, and sharing. It all matters...we all do. Every day.

LA

Joined: Dec 2007
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Hi Dino!

Just wanted to check in and see how your weekend was. Hope you are doing well and feeling good. I am breaking my diet right now with a little ice cream ... hee, hee! Don't worry, I ate a small dinner and I am going to burn it off walking the dog ;\)

Joined: Nov 2004
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What happened in Hawaii at the reunion?

What's now and how are you?

LA

Joined: Oct 2007
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Dino, how are things going? We're worried about you.

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How are things going?

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