So I am not sure what you are refering to....please let me in b/c all I am getting is a f!@# you from Intro....
is it b/c he never put two and two together and realized that the last time I talkedd to him is the same day ashis ONS???Itold him the date may 30 he knew that I am sitting here at work crying my eyes out b/c I dont know what the heck is going on....

I asked him this morning why he would say the last time I talked to him was 24 mins.All night I am thinking to myself there is NO way it was that long ...am I going crazy?????So I checked out the phone bill and it was 6 min.Iasked him why he would say that the responce i got:oh.Iknnow what you mean know.very sorry.on may 24 u spoke for 78min,then slept withhim.then made me feel sorry for you.thencalled himthe next
nite@5 after I apoligized4 U sleeping in the truck.f!@# you "
thats awesome what am i lying about????that is my question??Is he telling you guys the trutH?? or his version???

I wouldnt even be here if I didnt want to try,thats the point what would I have to gain now by lying I DONT UNDERSTAND

This is between you and intro, and I can't play intermediary, KMS, sorry.

You need to learn to communicate with intro for this M to last, so me running between you two, or even communicating "for" him to you isn't going to help.

Part of healing is learning to communicate effectively.

He's angry and upset. I don't know if he has a rightful reason to be or not.

All I know is that there is questions of whether or not the whole truth has come out.

All I can advise you right now is to IN PERSON go through EXACTLY what happened-- all contact you can remember with OM, EXACTLY what was said in that last phone call.

Did you ever send a NC letter? If you didn't... if it was just a phone call... send the letter NOW. Today. Don't ask Intro if he wants it. JUST DO IT. Send it via certified mail, give intro a copy of it, and give him the receipt from the certified mail. Do it NOW. I don't care if you haven't heard from him since your last phone call or whatever. Just do it. He's already questioning what was said in that last phone call. And 6 minutes is a long time to say "I never want to talk to you again, stay out of my life". I would question what else was said too.

You need to make APPARENT from your ACTIONS that YOU are able to do this-- and that he knows the TRUTH. YOU CANNOT TALK YOUR WAY OUT OF SOMETHING YOU BEHAVED YOUR WAY INTO!

My suggestion:

Take the rest of the day off of work.

Go send that NC letter via certified mail.

Find intro.

Sit down, tell him the truth. If you already were telling him the truth, and this is a misunderstanding (I'm doubtful of that...), then you need to go through an EXACT timeline and answer ALL of his questions (and don't even think about the answer "I don't know" or "I don't remember") TODAY. Now.

WHAT ARE YOU STILL DOING READING THIS?? GO TELL YOUR BOSS YOU HAVE A FAMILY EMERGENCY AND ARE TAKING THE REST OF THE DAY OFF, GO MAIL A LETTER, GIVE IT TO INTRO AND GO TELL HIM THE TRUTH! Answer ALL of his questions...and do it HUMBLY.

I really hope this is a misunderstanding between you two... but if it is, KMS, its YOUR fault. You've been vague, and leaving Intro with questions. He shouldn't have questions. And until he believes he's got the whole truth, you can't proceed.

So go home. Find him. If he won't talk, then sit down in the living room-- give him room-- and tell him that you are ready to talk and answer ANY AND ALL questions TRUTHFULLY when he is ready to talk.

He's gonna yell. He's gonna be angry. KMS, don't react. This misunderstanding (if it is one) is YOUR FAULT.

Make sure HE KNOWS he's got the whole truth. Don't waste his time or anyone else's here.

Dates, exactly what was said/done. He needs to know.

Don't tell him "I don't know". You do KMS. We all know you do. I KNOW YOU DO. I've BTDT. The "pretending" I don't remember just because you don't want to admit to it.

KMS-- YOU AREN'T STILL IN CONTACT, ARE YOU?

What was your last contact? That 6 minute call? What was said? Was intro there, did he hear the call?

LEAVE WORK NOW.

Your M is on the line-- today.

E.

KMS,

I haven't posted to you before but just warned your husband to avoid AO and DJ when you do tell the truth.

So now, the ball is entirely in your court. You must tell the entire truth from now on.

If you withhold ANYTHING AT ALL, you will doom your marriage.

You can't hold a little bit of truth back at all. You can't lie even a tiny bit. Intro has enough information and insight that he will detect even a reluctance to state the truth. If you even hesitate before answering, then you will not be able to convince him you are being honest.

If you can't remember a specific detail, say you don't remember, but then add that you will research it, think about it and get back to him later in the day. The key is to discuss it, rather than avoiding giving an answer.

If you really can't find the answer for him, then go back to him (don't wait for him to come to you) and tell him you still are trying to recall what happened.

But don't ever use "I don't remember" as a way to avoid giving an answer. You see, you have all the details, though you might not have them available for instant recall. Intro has only what he knows for sure and what he has imagined. Unless you can replace his imagination with truth, then that will be part of the picture for him and trust me, his imagination is worse than anything that happened.

He's putting together a puzzle while looking at the back, with no picture to refer to and in the dark. You have the picture, the box and the light. To really help him the most, you need to put the pieces in place for him as you can without just telling him where they go when he asks.

Mark

eeyoree

Hi there.THANK YOU.I acually didnt read your whole post this morning b/c I was so upset but all I seen was LEAVE WORK NOW.Thats what I did I went to his work to figure out what was going on.He was looking through my phone bill and decided that the PA was not over when I told him.He doesnt believe a word that I say, so I went to pick him up and take him to my dads grave and swear on it.Sounds silly but my father was my world,I lost him when I was 18,and intro knows that.I figured that that would hopefully put his mind at peace,through my actions.


Ijust panicked this morning b/c the harsh comments were coming out and didnt know why,I try not to go on his threads and thats why I called for you.Sorry to do that to you.



There has been NC at all since I told him,I am still here and still want to work this out.We need to talk more and I need to stop with the I dont remember.
Nc letter was sent 2 monthes ago.

We are now at home and he has not cancelled the meeting with Jen so I am going to do it myself.
thanks
KMS

Hey KMS.

I'm glad you came back. I was starting to get a bit scared that I had scared you away. And I'm glad that you checked in too, I had been thinking a lot about you and intro for the rest of the day and checking pretty often to see if either of you had wrote-- you must have written just after I left work.

Anyways, I'm impressed and glad that you took the initiative to leave work, and also impressed with your actions.

Of course, I don't know the 'truth'-- only you know that. And I hope that intro does too.

You didn't put me in any sort of weird situation or anything. I was just telling you that I can't play intermediary between you an intro-- that's silly. Plus, since I only know you guys on the boards, and not even via private email, its even more silly to run back and forth between threads, ya know? You and intro have both really grown on me, and as silly as it seems to be "attached" to people whose "real names" you don't even know-- I like you an intro, probably because I related the most to you two of anyone on the boards. It seems most people here have been married for ages or at least have kids. We are among the minority here Plus, intro reacts much like my H does to things (as I've said a lot).

I'm glad you are both home now. And you are right, you need to stop with the "I don't know" . Mark had a good suggestion for you in terms of that if you really DON'T know the answer to a question. I would suggest that you ask intro to make a list of questions about the A that have been bugging him, and promise him that you'll calmly answer all of his questions one evening.

Really, your REAL recovery can't start until he at least stops WONDERING so much. I think intro has an active imagination, and I don't think that is going to stop until he feels like he knows everything. And you may have to tell him things several times-- he may test you to see if your story changes. Don't get snooty-- just answer again as if it is the first time he is asking you.

He will probably get upset, might even yell. But, stay calm. That is very important, very, very. Don't defend yourself, or put 'reasoning' into your answers. Just give the facts.

I really think you two need to sit down in a few days after you've had some time to cool off a bit and have a serious conversation about the FACTS. Even if you think you've shared it all-- answer his questions and share again. It can't hurt, especially when he hears the same things again.

So, I'm sorry if I came off harsh this morning-- but I'm glad that you did leave work and find him. That was the best thing you could have done this afternoon and I'm proud of you

I really want you and intro to make it, KMS, and I think you've got a chance. But a lot of whether or not it does make it depends on you... and its not easy. There were a ton of times I wanted to give up-- most recently just a few weeks ago! But I look back now and I know we've come a far way in the past year (yep, its been a YEAR!). Really far. And I'm more hopeful now...

So how is intro doing? How did he react to your showing up and finding him and taking him to the gravesite? Have things calmed down a bit?

And good for you for keeping the appointment with Jen even if he won't talk to her. Actions will speak VOLUMES over words right now KMS. Sadly enough, when you lie as much as we have... words just don't mean much anymore, so you have to consistently PROVE that you are serious about it... and today was a first step in the right direction (of many more to go!)

OK, I have to go finish cleaning up the house... H is out of town and I want to have it clean for when he comes home tomorrow! I just wanted to check in and see if either you or intro had stopped by... and was glad to see that you had.

E.

Oh, and after all the stress the two of you have had recently...

I would suggest that YOU take the initiative to plan something super fun for the weekend for the two of you. Something intro would really enjoy. I don't know what kinds of things he likes to do in his free time... but something really fun-- that will get your mind off of this CRAP!

As an example:

A few months back when H was really in the dumps for a few days in a row, and was really bringing out the sword and nasty comments (much like how intro did today)... I did this:

We have a Dave and Busters by us (its like a giant Chucky Cheese for adults with games and a bar, etc). So, I took him there one evening, and we had dinner first. Then, I planned a "game" for us. I took about 20 index cards, and wrote things on them that I knew he'd like (ie, "good for a back massage", "good for me to cook and clean up dinner", "good for (something in bed :o)"... you get the idea, whatever he would like!).

So, here was the "game". I let him pick the first "game" we played... and if he "won" the game (if it was a one player game, then whoever had the highest score, etc) then he got to pick an index card (without looking at them). The person that lost the game got to pick the next game to play. He could collect up to 4 index cards... so, after he won his fifth game and got to pick another index card, after he read the fifth one he had to pick one to throw away (he could only keep four!). So, the incentive to keep winning was because he didn't know what was on the index cards, so he would win just so that he could get another one and then keep the 4 that he "really" wanted the most.

We had a BLAST. And all in all, it only cost me about $40, and entertained us for about 4 hours.

And that night, in and of itself, was enough to break us out of a rut. Of course, there were more ruts after that, but that particular one was broken by that.

And, BTW, I practially had to DRAG him out that night (and tried to go with him a previous night and he actually ditched me), and all he did was complain and yell at me until we got there. But I didn't get discouraged.

So, my point is, think outside the box. Do something you know he'd enjoy, but is a little "different". I knew my H would enjoy Dave and Busters... he likes playing video games and stuff and is a competitive person... but I took 'going to Dave and Busters' and made it more creative and fun.

So-- can you think of something that we can plan for this weekend for the two of you?

I think a weekend getaway would be good for you two too. Do you have the finances to be able to plan one? Maybe you could surprise him with a weekend getaway too, if you could afford it.

E.

eeyoree


Thanks you had me worried you wasnt coming back here.jk.

We never made it to the gravesite b/c when I was being a [censored] he suggested that we go but I was "too busy" if you get my drift.But when we gott home I went and got my dads smoke pack(its the only thing that I have left except for a gun and me coming up the stairs with that in hand,well not a good idea)and I said we dont have to go to the gravesite but will this work?
I hope that he realizes that I am sincere in doing that.


You are correct in needing a get away.This is a long weekend and in the new town we are in I have heard there is go karts,think I might check it out!!!



Good night

kms

Actually, I'm not getting your drift, I'm really confused... you were too busy? Too busy how? Do you mean yesterday?

Anyways, how are things going today?

And, BTW, what are intro's top ENs?

E.

Yo KMS, you out there??

E.

KMS,

I've been watching the dynamics of what you guys are going through for a few days now and I wanted to tell you this...

You have ONE shot at getting this right and your level of commitment is what will determine the outcome. You have to be committed 100% and then some to making this work or your days as H&W are numbered.

If Intro even suspects that you are withholding anything, he is dying inside each time he thinks about it.

I want you to examine what he did and went through in order to get to this point and a chance at recovery with you. Look at what he put up with from you. Take a look at the beatings he took from folks here trying to get him to understand what to do. Look at the pride he sacrificed to even want you back after you betrayed him.

I know your first reaction to what I just said will be to formulate in your own mind a list of the things he did wrong in the past and tell me what you had to put up with from him for however many years...

I also know you're probably too smart to say them because you instinctively know something that is very important to the current situation. That is, none of that is even relevant right now because you chose to have an affair in response to all of that. The affair is the issue being dealt with right now. The affair is what has to be recovered from first and foremost. Until THAT issue is resolved, working on anything else is moot since unless and until you both are able to deal with the affair, the rest of it is pointless. If the affair is not resolved, your marriage is pretty much over, even if you learn to have great communication, spend all your waking moments together and develop all the great skills needed to have long and happy marriage.

The only way Intro is ever going to heal from this and the only way you will ever get a chance to address the long standing issues that you feel led to the affair will be if you just pretty much jump through whatever hoops he wants you to jump through. He needs total and complete transparency in everything from you and he needs it right now...Not next week or next month or tomorrow afternoon...NOW...

If you get caught withholding anything he may just decide to call it a day. He might anyway, based on what he learns when you tell him the truth, but that will because you told the truth, not because you refused to do it.

I don't know if you guys will make it or not, but I can tell you that if you don't do the hard part and the heavy lifting right now, you stand no chance whatsoever.

Not a punishment for truth, the consequences of lies of the recent past.

Fear of telling the truth is a self defense system. It protects us from the consequences of our actions. We lie to prevent those consequences from catching up to us. Your fear is understandable. One consequence might be an end to your marriage, but not facing those consequences will guarantee the end of your marriage.

And Intro is scared right now too. He's learned there was more to what happened than he assumed. His assumption was based on his belief that you were incapable of inflicting such emotional and mental pain on anyone, especially your husband. Now he suspects there may be even more he has not learned as of yet and THAT scares the cr@p out of him. It scares him because he worked hard and gave up quite a bit, not least of which was a level of self-respect he will never recoup to reach this point and if what he learns now is too much, he might decide to divorce you and send you on your way...

And he really doesn't want to do that because he has a lot invested in you and the marriage and wants to be with you when the good times return. But no matter how much is invested, when the losses exceed the value and the profits are not coming in, any wise business man would cut his losses and dump the business. If the cost outweighs the benefits it becomes a bad investment.

I don't know if you are holding anything back or not, but you have to convince Intro that you're not. To do that you have to give him MORE than he asks for and even do it without being asked.

It's the only chance you have left...

Mark

**E stands up and claps for Mark**

I was gonna say something very similar, but was waiting for you to come back first KMS.

This is it.

This is your shot.

If you want this, do it right, not half-hearted. Reach out to this great resource you have here-- and really DO everything you can. There's plenty here (other than me, and now you've got Mark, a great source and help) that will help you out and help you to muddle through this, and give your M its best shot.

You in or are you out?

E.

eeyoree,


Of course I am in.Sorry havent responded but my computer at work is out in the open and have no privacy at all(I throw out a few lines on here when I can).So please understand when I dont write all the time or in full details.

I truly app. you guys and all the advice.I have been truthful here and to Intro,I just sometimes dont know how to handle him and his reactions(remember there was a RO put on me)butI do answer all his questions that he asks me.I have not offered really anything else other than the questions .Maybe thats the problem.I did write a time line down for him today at work(it seems that with all the conversations we have had lines have been crossed)hopefully it helps.

At this point not sure what else to do but to continue with ENS even though I know he is not on board.Jen said last night to continue with them.

I havent answered all your questions but here is a few that I remember(will try to go through it again at home).


ENS
1.O/H
2.ADMIRATION
3.SF
4.AFFECTION
5.RC


oh our dog is lab,shepard/dingo!!
KMS

Watch for this to change as time goes on.

Expect SF to move ahead of O/H and Admiration as well. Even RC might move up the list as time goes on. What a BS "needs" is very much dependent on their state of mind at the time. In fact, this is true for everyone so ENs should be readdessed from time to time.

I know when I first filled out the ENQ, O/H was top of my list and Affection was close #2. Once honesty seemed the norm rather than an exception, O/H moved down the list.

This is not uncommon at all. His deepest need right now is for you to be totally honest. If you are over time, then he will begin to once more accept what you say as truth without having to verify each detail for himself. At that point, O/H will be less important to him but still one of his ENs.

Mark

Mark,

Good point on them changing.Should we maybe do them once a month or less?I have even noticed on mine that they have changed since we last did them.

I'm glad that you went ahead and wrote out a timeline for Intro. I'd let him read it over and then tell him you want to answer any and all questions for him at some set time point this weekend. Give him time to think of what those questions ARE. And answer them honestly, and don't leave anything out, at all.

I honestly think that your marriage is teetering right now, and if intro finds out anything more 'on his own' its gonna be kaput. So, get it out now, get it over with. Its embarrassing, its hard for you to answer, and sometimes I wanted to defend myself when I went through this... but, its part of what you have to do if you want to recover.

So, YOU approach HIM-- give him the timeline-- and tell him you want to set up a time with him to answer any and all questions. Ask him when is good for him.

That is your homework assignment for the weekend KMS.

And I'm glad you still talked with Jen last night She's great. Did she have any specific pointers for how to help you meet intro's EN's?

Admiration is also a big one of my H's EN's. I think sometimes that is why their ego seems a little MORE bruised than some others around here. I think those with admiration as a top EN take a harder fall than those where its a little further down the line (not that its easy for ANYONE!).

Anyways, its YOUR job to help get his confidence back. Compliment him, but not in a way that's cheesy or obvious. I know that my H likes to cook, and prides himself on his chef abilities. So, when it comes up in conversation and we are around other people, I take the opportunity to "brag" about his cooking-- within earshot of him. Or just telling him that I like the way a particular color shirt makes his eyes look, etc (my H has the prettiest blue eyes..). You can't make it seemed forced.

SF... well that's an obvious one. Get yourself a nice lace nightie and wear it to bed one night and initiate SF. Don't wait for him to do it, you do it. You may get rejected a few times (I sure did), but keep at it. He's a guy. Eventually he'll cave

KMS-- what specifically are you doing to help meet intro's ENs? I guess we should start there...

Oh, and I have a 5 year old female Australian shepherd/lab mix who is my big baby... I love her to death. She's actually a therapy dog... she does visits at local hospitals and nursing homes...

Anyways, I'm glad you are in. You just need to be consistent in your ACTIONS-- everyday.

And I know how hard it is to "deal" with them when they get in these moods. I lived with it for darn near 6 months. You aren't out of the woods yet. When H would get REALLY riled up, we would take a break. I would CALMLY repeat to him over and over again that I was sorry and that I would do whatever it took to fight for the M. He said he wanted to give up, wasn't going to do anything, and I would say that that was fine, and that I still wanted the M and was going to fight for it. I just wouldn't let ANYTHING he said change my message to him-- which was "I'm deeply sorry, I love you, and going to do whatever it takes no matter how angry you are with me right now" That's it. That's about all you CAN say.

I know my H would like to be left alone when he got really riled up. I would leave him alone for awhile, and then go and snuggle with him (without saying anything), or would drag him out to do something fun.

A lot of times this isn't like typical fights where you can "resolve" it and move on. A lot of times he's going to get riled up and upset, and there's not going to be a way you can "fix" it. You can't change the past, and that's about all that would fix it. So, just ride it out, keep your message to him that you love him and are going to fight for him, and try to plan something fun or get him to join you doing something fun.

You can't "fix" it-- "fixing" it will take time, lots and lots of time. So, just ride it out-- and try to bust him out of the mood by planning something he would like or doing something for him he would like.

This is going to be a lot of heavy lifting on your part to get this back. And you can't expect anything back from him right now.

What do you and intro have planned for the weekend? (I am usually only around a limited amount of time on the weekends, but I will try to check in at some point...)

E.

eeyoree


Yes Jen gave me some good pointers to continue on with the ENs and how to not let my"taker" get in the way.She said that if I work on it he should hopefully come around.She suggested a schedule to post on the fridge of RC time together,only if intro was willing {not to push it on him}.She did also say that my journal was not a good idea b/c its my "taker" talking.That is disrespectful,but to take it and write down everything that I did to meet his ENs instead.Tonight I made dinner res at a Italian restuarant hopefully its good,picked it on line.I have made a list of about 20 different ideas for us to do this weekend,but I didnt get a responce back in regards to any of them.I dont want to push them on him either.Not sure if I should drag him out or what.


Gotta work
KMS
Will try to answer more later

Dinner reservations are a good idea. Italian is good... mmmm... (I am italian and its my favorite genre of food!).

I would actually spend the rest of your time thinking about things you want to talk to intro about-- THAT ARE NOT A RELATED!

Don't talk about it at all tonight, just for one evening. Even the Harleys say that talking about the A all the time is bad for recovery. You can't sweep it under the rug, but you certainly can't let it take over everything. There has to be a time that it is put aside temporarily in the interest of reconnecting.

If he brings it up, I'd tell him that you'd love to sit down with him and talk about your relationship, whatever he wants to talk about, Saturday, but tonight you just want to enjoy each other's company. And change the subject, immediately. I would actually come up with in my head preconceived things to change the subject to, when I thought he might bring it up.

Get out and do something fun this weekend too. I wouldn't "drag" him out-- but don't be surprised if he's reluctant. My H would make a big stink, make it apparent he really didn't want to go. But, he'd still go, and I would be cheery, and before you knew it we were having fun! So, just because he doesn't spring off the couch with enthusiasm, don't give up. You may have to "coerce" him a bit.

I know dealing with him is probably hard KMS, but don't give up. Trust me, its worth it-- my M is really starting to improve now, after 6 months of HE77... and its so worth it.

And I know it is hard to change your own habits of reacting to him. That was what I needed to do the most... change my habits of how I reacted to H when he would have meltdowns. I got a lot of help from this board in how to deal with him when he had meltdowns, and not to "feed into" the emotions.

As much as intro has a right to be angry and upset, he doesn't have a right to "punish" you with that anger. So, instead of reacting when he's really riled up, you need to learn to send him the message that you are love him, are sorry, and are going to do everything for recovery, then give him space/time to cool down. Don't react. That was the hardest part for me. H would push every single one of my buttons and say very hurtful/mean things. And if one didn't work, he'd keep going right on down the line until he finally foudn the button that worked and got me to react.

Don't react. That was the hardest part for me. Learning to change how I reacted to him. But once I did, things improved significantly.

And it gets easier too. What was SO HARD for me the first few times I did it in terms of not reacting to him, is almost second nature to me now, 6 months ago. So it gets easier. You just have to get the ball rolling.

I also found that hanging out with other couples we were friends with was good too-- mainly because then it wasn't the two of us staring at each other and him stewing. Its easier to avoid fighting but still spend time together if you are with another couple. I planned a ton of "game nights" at first... we'd have another couple over and play "cranium"-- which was good because you play in teams...

I'm glad to see you taking the reigns a bit KMS! You are gonna have to steer your relationship for awhile, so sit back and get comfortable! In the end you'll be a stronger, better wife for it

Good luck tonight at dinner, and let me know how it goes.

E.

PS-- text messages just to say "i just wanted to say i was thinking about you and love you" go a long way too

I believe you and Intro are reading the Harley books separately.

Since O&H is his #1 need, why not offer to read this chapter together and to openly discuss the questions at the end of the Chapter? Each of you should have a different color highlighter to highlight items of importance to you in the chapter. You can also discuss these items as well.

Also, it might be hard for you at first, have Intro list each instance of your dishonesty that he sees every day. You can then discuss. If he gets angry, just pull yourself out of the situation until both of your emotions are calmed down and your logic is the leader of your discussions.

eeyoree

Ok were listening in on my conselling meeting last night?Jen said the exact same thing.She called it policy of joint agreement{I think}.She had said to sit down for 20 minutes each night and talk about our day, plans for the next day,one good thing, one bad thing.The first time we tried intro only brought up the A which was not supposed to be part of the agenda.She said next time this happens to say I would love to answer your questions maybe we could set up a time.Funny thats what you are saying.ty.

You are right it is hard sometimes to keep my head up but I hope with the change of writing in my jouranal will help me to make these new habits second nature.

Reacting is the hardest part.I can be a hot head and spew stuff out without even thinking about.Thats been a challenge and I have slipped a few times, those buttons have been pushed just right, and boy he knows how to do it.


Unfortunatly having moved we dont have any friends around here,but am hoping to make some.Would like intro to make that step.Friends we do have are either single or intro doesnt like the other half.I love doing stuff with my sisters but intro is resentful towards them.At least thats the picture I get from him.

KMS