My wife and I have been together 12 years and married 8 years and we have two beautiful children of 5 and 3.

Since we started a family five years ago we have had very little time to ourselves and let the pressures of every day life bury our lives as a couple.

Then to make things worse, 3 years ago, my wife found an escape from the everyday grind by getting into training for triathlons. She is out training, competng or socialising with her fellow traithletes about 20 hours/wk. As soon as I come home from work she goes out to train and half of Satrurday and Sunday too. She loves the escapism and I have tried to support it as much as I can but it is getting worse. She is so happy when she is out training then as soon as she comes back in the house she gets down and irritable. We have not time to do things together and she associates these down times at home with me and hence now she sees me as the root cause of the problem. We have become virtual strangers.
Then a month ago I found out that my wife has been having an affair for the previous 2 months with a fellow traithlete. I feel sick at the thought but hold my hands up for part of the blame for not meeting her emotional needs. I still want to make things work and we both saw a counsellor but she quit after the first session saying that she just doesn't love me anymore and that will never change. I still love her and am desperate to keep the family together. I am trying hard to meet her emotional needs but she is deliberately shutting me out and then hit me with the double bombshell that she may love the OM (she hasn't contacted him in a month despite being desperate to do so) and wants a divorce. I have to save our marriage, I really think she is making a mistake we will all regret. Nothing seems to be getting through...

We could be such a happy family, how do I get her to try? She belives that it's all gone and that you shouldn't need to work at marriage. She is throwing all our happiness' away.. HELP! PLEASE!!

You need to move this post to the General Questions II board. This is where you'll find the help you need for this situation.

Expose her affair to everyone that would count. Don't tell her or warn her that you're going to. Read up on exposure, plan A and plan B.

You are in for a fight, and the plans work, if you work them right.

I'm so sorry you are going through this. Your wife is very typical of all the "wayward" spouses we encounter here.

It'll help you get through this emotionally destroying time in your life. I'm so glad you found this place.

I'm going to repeat myself, you really need to go to GQII.

Moving this thread to GQII, per thread owner's request.

More info...

I am living a nightmare, my wife seems sure that a divorce is the way to go, she says she is sick of covering the same old ground when we talk. I have declared my love, written her love letters, sent flowers etc. Nothing seems to work.
She doesn't want to talk things through and tries to avoid spedning anytime with me.
How can I show how good things can be?
Any ideas for silly fun things I could do or romantic ideas to help her see the potential of what she is planning on giving up?

Really appreciate anything from anyone. This is turning me inside out.

Has she been in NC with the OM? IMO, I think she is still in contact with the OM.

Have you read SAA and HNHN? There are many that can help you here.

Sorry you're here.

Mopey gave you excellent advice to get started. Have you done this? Exposure usually kills an affair. It's not done to be vindictive, but to let everyone know that your wife is involved in an adulterous affair, that you want to save your marriage and to ask for their support. Ideal exposure targets are your family, OM's wife (if he's married), perhaps the folks that organize the events, your wife's team members, pastors, jobs, etc.

Expect your wife to be LIVID when you expose and DON'T warn her that you're going to do this. She will say all kinds of hateful things, but the fact is your marriage cannot survive an affair but it can survive her anger.

Then go into Plan A for a SHORT time. Read up on the plans here to become more familiar with your goals.

IGNORE her fog-babble (It'll never work out. I don't love you anymore. Marriage isn't supposed to be work. I've NEVER loved you. etc.) They ALL say basically the same things. It's amazing. She's not your wife at this time, she's the WW (wayward wife).

You have come to the right place.

You are now going to have to do several things which are counter-intuitive to get your wife back.

First off, be a man. This is very important. You have to have the guts to stand up and fight for your marriage.

How do you do this?

No crying, for starters. No begging, whining, and being a doormat.

I say this as a man who was. It hurt me badly and I wish I could go back and do the things that I need to do.

Your wife is living a fantasy and doesn't really grasp the consequences to your children of what she's doing.

The next thing you need to understand is that you are motivated not by love for your wife but by love for your children. THEY are the ones you need to protect from her crazy behavior.

So what do you do?

First off, you need to put into practice the 180. I will post that next. But it basically involves no longer giving your WW attention. This doesn't mean you become a cold a$$. It means you don't give her attention and become indifferent to her, even cheerful.

The absolute most important thing you need to do is expose. Secrecy will kill you. I was secret because I feared my exww's reaction to exposure. Guess what happened to me? I'm now divorced and separated from my children because I did it all wrong.

So take my advice from someone who has been in your exact same situation and understands what I did wrong from the start.

Exposure must happen. This is a critical and required step for you to end the affair.

Who do you expose to? Her family. Your family. The other man's wife, if he has one. The organizers of the triathlon training. Your friends.

This will infuriate her. She will be livid.

I will forewarn you of what you will hear from her. She will say the following:

"How could you do this to me?"
"I can't trust you anymore."
"You're ruining my reputation."
"You're motivated by revenge/anger/jealousy."
"Other man has nothing to do with how I feel about you."
"You just ruined any chance we had at recovery or working things out."

Expect these things to be said, and worse.

It's typical and normal and expected. Don't be surprised when she says these things.

Now this is the most important thing I can tell you:

You are taking action to preserve your rights as a father.

Do NOT, under any circumstances, leave your home. If she wants out, then she can leave. You are there to protect your children from her craziness.

Let her know, calmly, that there is no chance you and her can be friends if you divorce. Let her know that if she chooses to divorce it will be a full blown fight and that you will go for full custody of the children.

Document how often you are alone with the children. She has a hobby that takes her away from the kids all the time and she leaves you to care for them.

Listen, you are in crisis mode. You are in a battle for your marriage and rights as a father. Your wife is gone. She's floating around somewhere, but the woman you see before you isn't it.

I made huge mistakes in my situation by not doing the things I'm telling you to do. The advice I give comes from a man who has spent 2 years attempting to appeal to a mom biased court system to let me see my kids more often.

I screwed myself by messing it up from the start.

You can avoid these problems.

You want your wife back? Show her how difficult it will be to do what she's doing and how much she stands to lose if she pursues divorce.

In the meantime, focus on you. Get in shape. Fix the problems you had as a husband.

Be calm. Be cool. Think James Bond. Think Bruce Lee. These were cool men who remained composed under fire and knew when to act.

They are your inspiration on how you should behave.

I'll post the 180 next.

If you can afford it, call SH.

Finally, understand this: Your wife isn't special or unique. You aren't special or unique.

What do I mean by that? I didn't implement much of the advice I got because I thought that none knew my WW as I did. I thought my situation was different and unique.

It is a big mistake for you to assume the same, so don't.

The 180

Several years ago, Michelle Wiener Davis, the author of Divorce Busting, introduced a concept to the world of infidelity that is designed to help you and your partner move forward in the healing of your relationship. It is my suggestion that any new betrayed partner implement these behaviors immediately. They aren’t designed to make you look good or your partner bad. They are, however, a means of protection for the betrayed. They also empower the betrayed to face their new world with dignity and bravery. They appear stronger to the wayward partner and at this point in time, that is exactly what you want to portray.
This list was originally titled, “The 180” and it won’t take you long to figure out why. What you are actually doing is a complete 180 degree rotation in your actions and attitude. You no longer are a weeping sack of sorrow. Suddenly, you appear strong, happy, independent, and quite capable of making it on your own.

The 180
1. Don't pursue reason, chase, beg, plead or implore.

2. No frequent phone calls.

3. Don't point out "good points" in marriage.

4. Don't follow her/him around the house.

5. Don't encourage or initiate discussion about the future.

6. Don't ask for help from the family members of your wayward partner.

7. Don't ask for reassurances.

8. Don't buy or give gifts.

9. Don't schedule dates together.

10. Don't keep saying, "I Love You!" Because if you really think about it, he/she is, at this particular moment, not very loveable.

11. Do more than act as if you are moving on with your life; begin moving on with your life!

12. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and independent.

13. Don't sit around waiting on your spouse - get busy, do things, go out with friends, enjoy old hobbies, find new ones! But stay busy!

14. When home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation) be scarce or short on words. Don't push any issue, no matter how much you want to!

15. If you're in the habit of asking your spouse his/her whereabouts, ASK NOTHING. Seem totally uninterested.

16. Your partner needs to believe that you have awakened to the fact that "they (the wayward partner)" are serious concerning their assertions as to the future (or lack there of) of your marriage. Thus, you are you are moving on with your life…with out them!

17. Don't be nasty, angry or even cold - Just pull yourself back. Don't always be so available…for anything! Your spouse will notice. More important, he/she will notice that you're missing.

18. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment? Make yourself be someone they would want to be around, not a moody, needy, pathetic individual but a self assured individual secure in the knowledge that they have value.

19. All questions about the marriage should be put on hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may not be for quite a while). Initiate no such conversation!

20. Do not allow yourself to lose your temper. No yelling, screaming or name calling EVER. No show of temper! Be cool, act cool; be in control of the only thing you can control? YOURSELF!

21. Don't be overly enthusiastic.

22. Do not argue when they tell you how they feel (it only makes their feelings stronger). In fact, refuse to argue at all!

23. Be patient and learn to not only listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you? HEAR what it is that they are saying! Listen and then listen some more!

24. Learn to back off, keep your mouth shut and walk away when you want to speak out, no matter what the provocation. No one ever got themselves into trouble by just not saying anything.

25. Take care of you. Exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil.

26. Be strong, confident and learn to speak softly.

27. Know that if you can do this 180, your smallest CONSISTENT action will be noticed far more than any words you can say or write.

28. Do not be openly desperate or needy even when you are hurting more than ever and are feeling totally desperate and needy.

29. Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse. It's not always about you! More to the point, at present they just don't care!

30. Do not believe any of what you hear them say and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives and do so in the most strident tones imaginable. Try to remember that they are also hurting and afraid. Try to remember that they know what they are doing is wrong and so they will say anything they can to justify their behavior.

31. Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel. It "ain't over till it's over!"

32. Do not backslide from your hard earned changes. Remain consistent! It is the consistency of action and attitude that delivers the message.

33. When expressing your dissatisfaction with the actions of the wayward party, never be judgmental, critical or express moral outrage. Always explain that your dissatisfaction is due to the pain that the acts being committed are causing you as a person.

This is the kind of behavior that will cause you to be a much more attractive and mysterious individual. Further it SHOWS that you are NOT afraid to move on with your life. Still more important, it will burst their positive little bubble; the one in which they believe that they can always come back to you in case things don't work out with the affair partner.

Thank you so much for the advice and support - I can't tell you how much I appreciate it in these dark times.

Unfortunately I have already broken most of these guidelines over the last 3 weeks since I found out - have I ruined my chances already??

The triathlon people are already very suspicious about whether my wife was having an affair. Unfortunately I have already threatened to tell them in a moment of weakness but did not. She said she may tell them herself so that I can't hold it over her. I will gather the courage and expose it to her triathlon pals and family (he is single but recently split)

I have also done the begging and pleading with the "I have got nothing left" bit - I know it is pitiful.

However, from today I have and will be strong and cheerful. I will take on this great advise and hope I haven't already undermined myself.

Your absolutely right about my children, they are my first priority bar none. I love my wife and although I desperately want things to work out, there is a part of me that looks at her like a stranger and feels my stomach churn.

I am in a state of constant crazy flux with my emotions but I will do everything to control them in front of her (save my weakness for my friends) and try the plan.

Thank you so much for your thoughts, concerns and wisdom - a flicker of light and hope remains.

Bless you, pomdbd3, my thoughts and prayers are with and your children

Ok friend - you are down but definately not out....

Read up on the plans in Q&A section. Be familar with all the aspects of fog babble and wayward behavior from your wife. Be aware she has fallen in love (like teenager) to the OM.

Here is the deal - you have to make a stand against this assault on you and your family. Time to shake off the shock and emotions and roll up your sleeves.

couple of questions - has she filed for D? If not then she is using this threat to keep you quiet so she can have both worlds (its called cake eating).


Quick Pointers in the Early Stage:

1. Dont move out when requested. Your home and you did not leave the marriage.

2.Snoop for more contact - she may still be in contact.

3. If she is pushing for D (let her do the hard work - dont lift a finger on any D filing),

4. Expose - Exposure includes confronting the OM - find out his intentions with your wife. These OM's are usually POS cowards - one of the reasons why they go after the married mothers.

After exposure - she may decide to file for D. Doesnt mean it will end up that way - you can drag it out. Be prepared and read up. As mentioned - these situations are predictable enough that you can develop a plan a head of time.

5. Protect your family finances. Be prepared to cut her off if possible and if the A resumes. You should not have to finance this affair.

Key is to make the affair (divorce) painful while making the marriage more attractive. Read up on Plan A.

Most important - stop the begging and crying - have to be a man - a role model for your kids - starnge thing is that the one party with the least interest has the most power. That's why POM sent the 180.

you must not tolerate this disrespect of another man interloping.

One big thing to look out for:

The WW is really good at playing on your emotions.

Mine told me she'd give me a chance. The second I stood up and resisted in any way or didn't do exactly as she wanted she'd go into full venom mode, saying things like:

"If you don't do it then we're going to divorce and it's going to be ugly and there is no chance in hell of us being together!"

I fell for it every time and paid dearly for it.

Don't fall for that. When she starts ranting, walk away and ignore it.

And the best advice you can get is the one about divorce. It's a bluff on her part until she does something. When she does, IF she does, drag your feet. Instruct your lawyer to not do a damn thing until the last minute. Make it all drag out slowly.

Now there are advantages to filing first. If you do, then you must file under grounds of adultery and don't do a no contest divorce. You will come out ahead if you do so and DONT let a lawyer talk you out of filing under adultery if you go that path.

The advantage of filing first is that it puts her on the defense and lets you call the shots a bit. The best part about it is that you can withdraw your divorce request and force her to file and start the whole process over.

Re-read all the advice we gave you and do your best to follow it. 3 weeks into this isn't very long. It's now time to pick yourself up, dust yourself off, and be that man she wants to see.

Trust me, she wants to see that man.

But expect anger. Expect it and don't be surprised by it and don't let her use it to play on your emotions.

I forgot to add: OM are cowards. I had one (of the five) that scurried away when a very upset husband gave him a call and let him hear it.

They really don't want to deal with it.

Also, look into whether or not your state has alienation of affection law suits. Even if they are rare and rarely won, threaten him with it and file one if necessary.

Let him know there will be a lot of trouble for trying to steal your wife away.

Belive me, there's plenty of single women out there without the drama. Most OM will run away when really faced with a challenge.

Some won't. Be ready for that too. "The Soulmates" will team up against you.

Thanks again for the great advice and support.

I am planning on exposing the affair through a third female party who is already suspicious so that it doesn't come from me...what do you think?

I dropped my wife at this female friends house (who is happily married) last night, the OM is their lodger but was supposed to be out. I told my wife tht I trusted her and acted perfectly normally. She did see the OM and said Hello, a few quick pleasantries and bye (witnessed by my friend who was also there). She came home and I asked if she had spoken to him and she said yes and confirmed what I already knew. I said I was happy to talk with her about it as her friend if it would help and stayed completely calm and controlled. She just said she was really upset and didn't want to talk, so I just left it and talked about other things. Was this in tune with the plan??

I don't think they are in contact but I am going to up my surveillance by moitoring her mobile and I was thinking of a key logger for her PC as I know previously she e-mailed OM and possibly IM'd too. Any ideas of a good one? I am now wondering if she has another way of keeping in touch - maybe she has got a pay-as-you-go mobile as well her normal one. How could I locate this or check this out?

Should I confront OM now or wait until after exposure or until I have evidence that things are still going on if they are??

I am going to stay in control, I just need to know this affair is totally dead so she can get through the mourning phase as soon as possible. Meanwhile, I am being the strong person I once was, I refused the bait on two arguements already this morning!

Any more advice on this or other stuff is hugely appreciated.

It's great to have all your support. Thank you!

The fact that you are not getting upset or emotional with her right now is a very good thing. What makes you think the affair is dead? Has she agreed to have no contact with him? It does not sound like that is the case if she went to the house where he lodges. I would assume based on this fact that the affair is not dead--at least on her part. He may be scared off from the drama of being involved with a married woman. But the fact that she is going to his house means that the affair is not dead.

Do not talk to her about OM as though your were her "friend". That is not a strong stance. I have read of BH on this board having to endure hearing of the OM as though they were their wife's "friend" because their wayward wife talks to them of their affair partner. I cringe at this insult. You are not her "friend", you are her husband.

Also, you mention that you think she has had "no contact". At the same time, you mention that she saw him and said hello to him in passing. This is "Contact". The sight of the OM is most definitely "contact". A key logger is a must. I can't remember which one is recommended. If I have time, I will look up old posts. SpectorPro comes to my mind.

Does she have a credit card? Check out her bill for purchases. With her cell phone, are you checking out her activity on line? That way you can know immediately who she is calling on that phone.

Don't use a third party to expose. It is a must that you do the exposure. You are perceived as strong when you do the exposure. You are also eliciting the support and assistance of the people that you expose her to. Depending on who they are and the role they play in your wife's life, you are seeking their support for your marriage, you are seeking their advise in saving your marriage.

I would not advise you to tell your wife that you trust her. You don't trust her. I wouldn't bother to tell her that you dis-trust her, I just wouldn't tell her that. In my mind, it makes you seem weak to her. After all, she knows that you should not be trusting her. She is trying to get away from you at the moment. Why would you trust her?

You are getting there. It takes a little time to get into the headset of a man fighting for his marriage. But you do need to get a list of people together that you are going to expose the affair to, and do the "exposure". She is just trying to stall for time right now, implying in some small manner that the affair is ended. She is still very much in the wayward headset. Others with more experience will be by to help you. You are asking the right questions and that is a very good sign for your ability to do this right.

Well, it's progress. Baby steps in the right direction.

Yes, keeping your cool is good. Saying you'll be her friend is not. You don't need to be insulted with her "talking" to you about OM.

There's a difference between a confession and sitting there and hearing the sorbid details of her affair as a "friend".

I also second the thougth about saying that you trust her. You don't. So don't say that you do. She's not trustworthy.

Are you in England? I gather that you are because you called the cell phone a mobile. British word. I was stationed there for 3 years (great assignment, great country).

Don't expose through a friend. Doing it yourself shows that you're standing up for your marriage. Exposure doesn't have to be full of sorbid details. It can be a simple, "My wife is having an affair with OM. I'm fighting to save my marriage and ask for your support."

Done. No more needs to be said.

Family members can get more details.

A warning about family: Blood is thicker than mud so don't expect them to stay on your side or supportive.

This is a very tough place. You've made some baby steps. Now polish it up. Think James Bond. Emulate him. How would he act?

He'd be cool and calm. And if you're British, then you don't even have to fake the accent!

There are free keyloggers you can get online. Just google the term "free keylogger" and you can find plenty.

All you need is the password for her email or whatever she's using to communicate with OM.

Check the cell phone bills or online record. That will tell you who she's calling. That will give you the info you need on OM, such as who his parents are and if he's married. That's more people you can expose to.

Finally, YOU must confront OM yourself. Call him if you need to. I confronted every single one of the OM my ex was seeing. Most were shocked to learn she was still married and wasn't in the process of divorcing when she met up with them.

Many of them openly talked to me as well and shared details about what happened on their dates.

It's hard. You're afraid of upsetting WW. That's understandable. But if your WW is upset, then you're doing the right things. WW must not be happy because you're raining on her parade and ruining her ability to carry on her affair.

Expect the anger. It's coming. It shouldn't surprise you when you see it. Your marriage can survive her anger. It can't survive an ongoing affair.

Trust me, right now you're crushed and want your wife back. But anger develops and grows if the affair continues and if the behavior and way she treats you continues.

You've suffered one of the most horrible forms of emotional abuse there is. Dust yourself off and find a way to be like James Bond.

Dear Not Out,
remember, you are not responsible for her decision to go out and get involved with another man. You and she are both equally responsible for the state of your marriage prior to her affair. She is 100 per cent responsible for going out and having an affair.

By the way, I can't imagine her taking the time it takes to train for triathalons when she has two young children at home. Does she work outside the home? It sounds like she stays at home with the children during the day while you go work. Then she is out the door when you arrive home from work.

How are you doing with your physical fitness? Are you able to get the time you need to stay fit in the manner that you want to stay fit? Do you attend her triathalon events?

Another update...

I installed a key logger on wife's pc last night and cuaght her sending e-mails to OM (they were polite "thanks for the info" sort of thing. I challenged my wife on these and she denied them time and again. Eventually I told her that I had guesses her e-mail password and she went quiet. I rang the OM and left a message on his cellphone telling him to back off. I told her she had a choice - divorce or cut this guy out and commit to us - she chose the latter. She agreed to send an e-mail to tell him no communication. All well and good but then...

Later in the day the key logger picked up no e-mail, she insisted there was one but wouldn't let me see it. I also monitored her scanning the internet for virtually the whole day while the children were lfet to entertain themselves. She chnaged her password three times during the day and looked a loads of bike sites. She eve tried to hack my e-mail account (she could have looked if she wanted as I have nothing to hide) which she also denied.

Then she went our for a race and I was about to delete the key logger as she had told me she was committed to us. However the key logger picked up an e-mail from him saying that he had lost her text number but that I kept calling him. I told my wife and she freaked especially when I said she couldn't deny stuff as it was on a key logger - so now she knows

She came back from the race and told me how I was a psycho, a stalker, a weirdo and that the sight of me made her sick. I stayed calm and said that the ssue was that she had been caught. She got angrier and angrier and told me to get out of our bedroom for the night beore she killed either me or herself. I insisted I had done nothing wrong and it was my bed too - she could move. She went nuts and started screaming and being very threatening so I said for tonight I would go to the spareroom but it was my bed and I was back there tomorrow.

This is getting very scarey now - I can't see any way ahead apart from divorce. I'll wait and see how the land lies tomorrow - I haven't even exposed her and the OM yet (my courage is starting to fail to be honest). I guess I have virtually nothing to lose now but how to do it?

If she says she wants a divorce shall I calmly collect the papers from the solicitors to call her bluff?

The longer this goes on the less I recognise any remaining part of my wife and wonder if maybe divorce is the way. Still I know that the real lady I married is in there somewhere but I just can't find her.

I am really worried she will turn nasty with the divorce and limit my access to the children. They need me more than ever, she is all over the place and obsessed with her triathlon.

My brain feels like it is going to implode now, let alone when I wake to another barrage of abuse and hatred tomorrow.

Anyone got any advice????? please!!!

YES I HAVE ADVICE!!!!!!!

Stop telling her what you know as soon as you know it!!!!

She will figure out the PC is being tracked.

Document all your proof and go into stealth mode.

Don't let your guard down.

Stop trying to force her into telling you something because you will drive the affair further underground.

The person you knew as your wife--she's not there. She's not necessarily gone forever, but right now she's been possessed by an alien.

You should treat her as you would a crack addict.

Don't expect to be able to reason with her. Expect that she will lie to you. Catching her in the lie will do you no good.

This may be hard to believe, but the sooner you can realize that she is a different person right now, the easier the rest of this will be.

The affair is your enemy. Until it is dead, you won't get anywhere with your marriage. I wouldn't even bother talking about it with her. She's not capable of hearing you.

She will only hear the bad stuff that you do (like catching her in lies). She will use it against you. Right now what she wants to do is carry on with the affair. She will be grasping at anything she can use to justify why that seems like a good idea.

This is why you expose. Expose to everyone. Don't threaten--you're not trying to exert power over her or exact something from her, you're trying to kill the affair. Expose. Make it miserable for them to keep doing it.

Nothing good will happen for your marriage until the affair is over.

Sorry you're here, but this is the right place.

You did well. Her response is not surprising and is pretty typical.

Your big mistake was one I made. You revealed that you knew and how you knew it. She'll now go deeper underground and will hide her affair much more because you revealed your cards.

But other than that, you handled the other stuff well.

We told you she would flip.

You didn't do bad.

Stick to plan A and the 180. You will not lose custody.

You didn't answer before. Are you british? Canadian?

The laws there are different, that's why I ask.

But keep documenting. And keep spying.