My wife and I have been together 12 years and married 8 years and we have two beautiful children of 5 and 3.

Since we started a family five years ago we have had very little time to ourselves and let the pressures of every day life bury our lives as a couple.

Then to make things worse, 3 years ago, my wife found an escape from the everyday grind by getting into training for triathlons. She is out training, competng or socialising with her fellow traithletes about 20 hours/wk. As soon as I come home from work she goes out to train and half of Satrurday and Sunday too. She loves the escapism and I have tried to support it as much as I can but it is getting worse. She is so happy when she is out training then as soon as she comes back in the house she gets down and irritable. We have not time to do things together and she associates these down times at home with me and hence now she sees me as the root cause of the problem. We have become virtual strangers.
Then a month ago I found out that my wife has been having an affair for the previous 2 months with a fellow traithlete. I feel sick at the thought but hold my hands up for part of the blame for not meeting her emotional needs. I still want to make things work and we both saw a counsellor but she quit after the first session saying that she just doesn't love me anymore and that will never change. I still love her and am desperate to keep the family together. I am trying hard to meet her emotional needs but she is deliberately shutting me out and then hit me with the double bombshell that she may love the OM (she hasn't contacted him in a month despite being desperate to do so) and wants a divorce. I have to save our marriage, I really think she is making a mistake we will all regret. Nothing seems to be getting through...

We could be such a happy family, how do I get her to try? She belives that it's all gone and that you shouldn't need to work at marriage. She is throwing all our happiness' away.. HELP! PLEASE!!

You need to move this post to the General Questions II board. This is where you'll find the help you need for this situation.

Expose her affair to everyone that would count. Don't tell her or warn her that you're going to. Read up on exposure, plan A and plan B.

You are in for a fight, and the plans work, if you work them right.

I'm so sorry you are going through this. Your wife is very typical of all the "wayward" spouses we encounter here.

It'll help you get through this emotionally destroying time in your life. I'm so glad you found this place.

I'm going to repeat myself, you really need to go to GQII.

Moving this thread to GQII, per thread owner's request.

More info...

I am living a nightmare, my wife seems sure that a divorce is the way to go, she says she is sick of covering the same old ground when we talk. I have declared my love, written her love letters, sent flowers etc. Nothing seems to work.
She doesn't want to talk things through and tries to avoid spedning anytime with me.
How can I show how good things can be?
Any ideas for silly fun things I could do or romantic ideas to help her see the potential of what she is planning on giving up?

Really appreciate anything from anyone. This is turning me inside out.

Has she been in NC with the OM? IMO, I think she is still in contact with the OM.

Have you read SAA and HNHN? There are many that can help you here.

Sorry you're here.

Mopey gave you excellent advice to get started. Have you done this? Exposure usually kills an affair. It's not done to be vindictive, but to let everyone know that your wife is involved in an adulterous affair, that you want to save your marriage and to ask for their support. Ideal exposure targets are your family, OM's wife (if he's married), perhaps the folks that organize the events, your wife's team members, pastors, jobs, etc.

Expect your wife to be LIVID when you expose and DON'T warn her that you're going to do this. She will say all kinds of hateful things, but the fact is your marriage cannot survive an affair but it can survive her anger.

Then go into Plan A for a SHORT time. Read up on the plans here to become more familiar with your goals.

IGNORE her fog-babble (It'll never work out. I don't love you anymore. Marriage isn't supposed to be work. I've NEVER loved you. etc.) They ALL say basically the same things. It's amazing. She's not your wife at this time, she's the WW (wayward wife).

You have come to the right place.

You are now going to have to do several things which are counter-intuitive to get your wife back.

First off, be a man. This is very important. You have to have the guts to stand up and fight for your marriage.

How do you do this?

No crying, for starters. No begging, whining, and being a doormat.

I say this as a man who was. It hurt me badly and I wish I could go back and do the things that I need to do.

Your wife is living a fantasy and doesn't really grasp the consequences to your children of what she's doing.

The next thing you need to understand is that you are motivated not by love for your wife but by love for your children. THEY are the ones you need to protect from her crazy behavior.

So what do you do?

First off, you need to put into practice the 180. I will post that next. But it basically involves no longer giving your WW attention. This doesn't mean you become a cold a$$. It means you don't give her attention and become indifferent to her, even cheerful.

The absolute most important thing you need to do is expose. Secrecy will kill you. I was secret because I feared my exww's reaction to exposure. Guess what happened to me? I'm now divorced and separated from my children because I did it all wrong.

So take my advice from someone who has been in your exact same situation and understands what I did wrong from the start.

Exposure must happen. This is a critical and required step for you to end the affair.

Who do you expose to? Her family. Your family. The other man's wife, if he has one. The organizers of the triathlon training. Your friends.

This will infuriate her. She will be livid.

I will forewarn you of what you will hear from her. She will say the following:

"How could you do this to me?"
"I can't trust you anymore."
"You're ruining my reputation."
"You're motivated by revenge/anger/jealousy."
"Other man has nothing to do with how I feel about you."
"You just ruined any chance we had at recovery or working things out."

Expect these things to be said, and worse.

It's typical and normal and expected. Don't be surprised when she says these things.

Now this is the most important thing I can tell you:

You are taking action to preserve your rights as a father.

Do NOT, under any circumstances, leave your home. If she wants out, then she can leave. You are there to protect your children from her craziness.

Let her know, calmly, that there is no chance you and her can be friends if you divorce. Let her know that if she chooses to divorce it will be a full blown fight and that you will go for full custody of the children.

Document how often you are alone with the children. She has a hobby that takes her away from the kids all the time and she leaves you to care for them.

Listen, you are in crisis mode. You are in a battle for your marriage and rights as a father. Your wife is gone. She's floating around somewhere, but the woman you see before you isn't it.

I made huge mistakes in my situation by not doing the things I'm telling you to do. The advice I give comes from a man who has spent 2 years attempting to appeal to a mom biased court system to let me see my kids more often.

I screwed myself by messing it up from the start.

You can avoid these problems.

You want your wife back? Show her how difficult it will be to do what she's doing and how much she stands to lose if she pursues divorce.

In the meantime, focus on you. Get in shape. Fix the problems you had as a husband.

Be calm. Be cool. Think James Bond. Think Bruce Lee. These were cool men who remained composed under fire and knew when to act.

They are your inspiration on how you should behave.

I'll post the 180 next.

If you can afford it, call SH.

Finally, understand this: Your wife isn't special or unique. You aren't special or unique.

What do I mean by that? I didn't implement much of the advice I got because I thought that none knew my WW as I did. I thought my situation was different and unique.

It is a big mistake for you to assume the same, so don't.

The 180

Several years ago, Michelle Wiener Davis, the author of Divorce Busting, introduced a concept to the world of infidelity that is designed to help you and your partner move forward in the healing of your relationship. It is my suggestion that any new betrayed partner implement these behaviors immediately. They aren’t designed to make you look good or your partner bad. They are, however, a means of protection for the betrayed. They also empower the betrayed to face their new world with dignity and bravery. They appear stronger to the wayward partner and at this point in time, that is exactly what you want to portray.
This list was originally titled, “The 180” and it won’t take you long to figure out why. What you are actually doing is a complete 180 degree rotation in your actions and attitude. You no longer are a weeping sack of sorrow. Suddenly, you appear strong, happy, independent, and quite capable of making it on your own.

The 180
1. Don't pursue reason, chase, beg, plead or implore.

2. No frequent phone calls.

3. Don't point out "good points" in marriage.

4. Don't follow her/him around the house.

5. Don't encourage or initiate discussion about the future.

6. Don't ask for help from the family members of your wayward partner.

7. Don't ask for reassurances.

8. Don't buy or give gifts.

9. Don't schedule dates together.

10. Don't keep saying, "I Love You!" Because if you really think about it, he/she is, at this particular moment, not very loveable.

11. Do more than act as if you are moving on with your life; begin moving on with your life!

12. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and independent.

13. Don't sit around waiting on your spouse - get busy, do things, go out with friends, enjoy old hobbies, find new ones! But stay busy!

14. When home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation) be scarce or short on words. Don't push any issue, no matter how much you want to!

15. If you're in the habit of asking your spouse his/her whereabouts, ASK NOTHING. Seem totally uninterested.

16. Your partner needs to believe that you have awakened to the fact that "they (the wayward partner)" are serious concerning their assertions as to the future (or lack there of) of your marriage. Thus, you are you are moving on with your life…with out them!

17. Don't be nasty, angry or even cold - Just pull yourself back. Don't always be so available…for anything! Your spouse will notice. More important, he/she will notice that you're missing.

18. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment? Make yourself be someone they would want to be around, not a moody, needy, pathetic individual but a self assured individual secure in the knowledge that they have value.

19. All questions about the marriage should be put on hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may not be for quite a while). Initiate no such conversation!

20. Do not allow yourself to lose your temper. No yelling, screaming or name calling EVER. No show of temper! Be cool, act cool; be in control of the only thing you can control? YOURSELF!

21. Don't be overly enthusiastic.

22. Do not argue when they tell you how they feel (it only makes their feelings stronger). In fact, refuse to argue at all!

23. Be patient and learn to not only listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you? HEAR what it is that they are saying! Listen and then listen some more!

24. Learn to back off, keep your mouth shut and walk away when you want to speak out, no matter what the provocation. No one ever got themselves into trouble by just not saying anything.

25. Take care of you. Exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil.

26. Be strong, confident and learn to speak softly.

27. Know that if you can do this 180, your smallest CONSISTENT action will be noticed far more than any words you can say or write.

28. Do not be openly desperate or needy even when you are hurting more than ever and are feeling totally desperate and needy.

29. Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse. It's not always about you! More to the point, at present they just don't care!

30. Do not believe any of what you hear them say and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives and do so in the most strident tones imaginable. Try to remember that they are also hurting and afraid. Try to remember that they know what they are doing is wrong and so they will say anything they can to justify their behavior.

31. Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel. It "ain't over till it's over!"

32. Do not backslide from your hard earned changes. Remain consistent! It is the consistency of action and attitude that delivers the message.

33. When expressing your dissatisfaction with the actions of the wayward party, never be judgmental, critical or express moral outrage. Always explain that your dissatisfaction is due to the pain that the acts being committed are causing you as a person.

This is the kind of behavior that will cause you to be a much more attractive and mysterious individual. Further it SHOWS that you are NOT afraid to move on with your life. Still more important, it will burst their positive little bubble; the one in which they believe that they can always come back to you in case things don't work out with the affair partner.

Thank you so much for the advice and support - I can't tell you how much I appreciate it in these dark times.

Unfortunately I have already broken most of these guidelines over the last 3 weeks since I found out - have I ruined my chances already??

The triathlon people are already very suspicious about whether my wife was having an affair. Unfortunately I have already threatened to tell them in a moment of weakness but did not. She said she may tell them herself so that I can't hold it over her. I will gather the courage and expose it to her triathlon pals and family (he is single but recently split)

I have also done the begging and pleading with the "I have got nothing left" bit - I know it is pitiful.

However, from today I have and will be strong and cheerful. I will take on this great advise and hope I haven't already undermined myself.

Your absolutely right about my children, they are my first priority bar none. I love my wife and although I desperately want things to work out, there is a part of me that looks at her like a stranger and feels my stomach churn.

I am in a state of constant crazy flux with my emotions but I will do everything to control them in front of her (save my weakness for my friends) and try the plan.

Thank you so much for your thoughts, concerns and wisdom - a flicker of light and hope remains.

Bless you, pomdbd3, my thoughts and prayers are with and your children

Ok friend - you are down but definately not out....

Read up on the plans in Q&A section. Be familar with all the aspects of fog babble and wayward behavior from your wife. Be aware she has fallen in love (like teenager) to the OM.

Here is the deal - you have to make a stand against this assault on you and your family. Time to shake off the shock and emotions and roll up your sleeves.

couple of questions - has she filed for D? If not then she is using this threat to keep you quiet so she can have both worlds (its called cake eating).


Quick Pointers in the Early Stage:

1. Dont move out when requested. Your home and you did not leave the marriage.

2.Snoop for more contact - she may still be in contact.

3. If she is pushing for D (let her do the hard work - dont lift a finger on any D filing),

4. Expose - Exposure includes confronting the OM - find out his intentions with your wife. These OM's are usually POS cowards - one of the reasons why they go after the married mothers.

After exposure - she may decide to file for D. Doesnt mean it will end up that way - you can drag it out. Be prepared and read up. As mentioned - these situations are predictable enough that you can develop a plan a head of time.

5. Protect your family finances. Be prepared to cut her off if possible and if the A resumes. You should not have to finance this affair.

Key is to make the affair (divorce) painful while making the marriage more attractive. Read up on Plan A.

Most important - stop the begging and crying - have to be a man - a role model for your kids - starnge thing is that the one party with the least interest has the most power. That's why POM sent the 180.

you must not tolerate this disrespect of another man interloping.

One big thing to look out for:

The WW is really good at playing on your emotions.

Mine told me she'd give me a chance. The second I stood up and resisted in any way or didn't do exactly as she wanted she'd go into full venom mode, saying things like:

"If you don't do it then we're going to divorce and it's going to be ugly and there is no chance in hell of us being together!"

I fell for it every time and paid dearly for it.

Don't fall for that. When she starts ranting, walk away and ignore it.

And the best advice you can get is the one about divorce. It's a bluff on her part until she does something. When she does, IF she does, drag your feet. Instruct your lawyer to not do a damn thing until the last minute. Make it all drag out slowly.

Now there are advantages to filing first. If you do, then you must file under grounds of adultery and don't do a no contest divorce. You will come out ahead if you do so and DONT let a lawyer talk you out of filing under adultery if you go that path.

The advantage of filing first is that it puts her on the defense and lets you call the shots a bit. The best part about it is that you can withdraw your divorce request and force her to file and start the whole process over.

Re-read all the advice we gave you and do your best to follow it. 3 weeks into this isn't very long. It's now time to pick yourself up, dust yourself off, and be that man she wants to see.

Trust me, she wants to see that man.

But expect anger. Expect it and don't be surprised by it and don't let her use it to play on your emotions.

I forgot to add: OM are cowards. I had one (of the five) that scurried away when a very upset husband gave him a call and let him hear it.

They really don't want to deal with it.

Also, look into whether or not your state has alienation of affection law suits. Even if they are rare and rarely won, threaten him with it and file one if necessary.

Let him know there will be a lot of trouble for trying to steal your wife away.

Belive me, there's plenty of single women out there without the drama. Most OM will run away when really faced with a challenge.

Some won't. Be ready for that too. "The Soulmates" will team up against you.

Thanks again for the great advice and support.

I am planning on exposing the affair through a third female party who is already suspicious so that it doesn't come from me...what do you think?

I dropped my wife at this female friends house (who is happily married) last night, the OM is their lodger but was supposed to be out. I told my wife tht I trusted her and acted perfectly normally. She did see the OM and said Hello, a few quick pleasantries and bye (witnessed by my friend who was also there). She came home and I asked if she had spoken to him and she said yes and confirmed what I already knew. I said I was happy to talk with her about it as her friend if it would help and stayed completely calm and controlled. She just said she was really upset and didn't want to talk, so I just left it and talked about other things. Was this in tune with the plan??

I don't think they are in contact but I am going to up my surveillance by moitoring her mobile and I was thinking of a key logger for her PC as I know previously she e-mailed OM and possibly IM'd too. Any ideas of a good one? I am now wondering if she has another way of keeping in touch - maybe she has got a pay-as-you-go mobile as well her normal one. How could I locate this or check this out?

Should I confront OM now or wait until after exposure or until I have evidence that things are still going on if they are??

I am going to stay in control, I just need to know this affair is totally dead so she can get through the mourning phase as soon as possible. Meanwhile, I am being the strong person I once was, I refused the bait on two arguements already this morning!

Any more advice on this or other stuff is hugely appreciated.

It's great to have all your support. Thank you!

The fact that you are not getting upset or emotional with her right now is a very good thing. What makes you think the affair is dead? Has she agreed to have no contact with him? It does not sound like that is the case if she went to the house where he lodges. I would assume based on this fact that the affair is not dead--at least on her part. He may be scared off from the drama of being involved with a married woman. But the fact that she is going to his house means that the affair is not dead.

Do not talk to her about OM as though your were her "friend". That is not a strong stance. I have read of BH on this board having to endure hearing of the OM as though they were their wife's "friend" because their wayward wife talks to them of their affair partner. I cringe at this insult. You are not her "friend", you are her husband.

Also, you mention that you think she has had "no contact". At the same time, you mention that she saw him and said hello to him in passing. This is "Contact". The sight of the OM is most definitely "contact". A key logger is a must. I can't remember which one is recommended. If I have time, I will look up old posts. SpectorPro comes to my mind.

Does she have a credit card? Check out her bill for purchases. With her cell phone, are you checking out her activity on line? That way you can know immediately who she is calling on that phone.

Don't use a third party to expose. It is a must that you do the exposure. You are perceived as strong when you do the exposure. You are also eliciting the support and assistance of the people that you expose her to. Depending on who they are and the role they play in your wife's life, you are seeking their support for your marriage, you are seeking their advise in saving your marriage.

I would not advise you to tell your wife that you trust her. You don't trust her. I wouldn't bother to tell her that you dis-trust her, I just wouldn't tell her that. In my mind, it makes you seem weak to her. After all, she knows that you should not be trusting her. She is trying to get away from you at the moment. Why would you trust her?

You are getting there. It takes a little time to get into the headset of a man fighting for his marriage. But you do need to get a list of people together that you are going to expose the affair to, and do the "exposure". She is just trying to stall for time right now, implying in some small manner that the affair is ended. She is still very much in the wayward headset. Others with more experience will be by to help you. You are asking the right questions and that is a very good sign for your ability to do this right.

Well, it's progress. Baby steps in the right direction.

Yes, keeping your cool is good. Saying you'll be her friend is not. You don't need to be insulted with her "talking" to you about OM.

There's a difference between a confession and sitting there and hearing the sorbid details of her affair as a "friend".

I also second the thougth about saying that you trust her. You don't. So don't say that you do. She's not trustworthy.

Are you in England? I gather that you are because you called the cell phone a mobile. British word. I was stationed there for 3 years (great assignment, great country).

Don't expose through a friend. Doing it yourself shows that you're standing up for your marriage. Exposure doesn't have to be full of sorbid details. It can be a simple, "My wife is having an affair with OM. I'm fighting to save my marriage and ask for your support."

Done. No more needs to be said.

Family members can get more details.

A warning about family: Blood is thicker than mud so don't expect them to stay on your side or supportive.

This is a very tough place. You've made some baby steps. Now polish it up. Think James Bond. Emulate him. How would he act?

He'd be cool and calm. And if you're British, then you don't even have to fake the accent!

There are free keyloggers you can get online. Just google the term "free keylogger" and you can find plenty.

All you need is the password for her email or whatever she's using to communicate with OM.

Check the cell phone bills or online record. That will tell you who she's calling. That will give you the info you need on OM, such as who his parents are and if he's married. That's more people you can expose to.

Finally, YOU must confront OM yourself. Call him if you need to. I confronted every single one of the OM my ex was seeing. Most were shocked to learn she was still married and wasn't in the process of divorcing when she met up with them.

Many of them openly talked to me as well and shared details about what happened on their dates.

It's hard. You're afraid of upsetting WW. That's understandable. But if your WW is upset, then you're doing the right things. WW must not be happy because you're raining on her parade and ruining her ability to carry on her affair.

Expect the anger. It's coming. It shouldn't surprise you when you see it. Your marriage can survive her anger. It can't survive an ongoing affair.

Trust me, right now you're crushed and want your wife back. But anger develops and grows if the affair continues and if the behavior and way she treats you continues.

You've suffered one of the most horrible forms of emotional abuse there is. Dust yourself off and find a way to be like James Bond.

Dear Not Out,
remember, you are not responsible for her decision to go out and get involved with another man. You and she are both equally responsible for the state of your marriage prior to her affair. She is 100 per cent responsible for going out and having an affair.

By the way, I can't imagine her taking the time it takes to train for triathalons when she has two young children at home. Does she work outside the home? It sounds like she stays at home with the children during the day while you go work. Then she is out the door when you arrive home from work.

How are you doing with your physical fitness? Are you able to get the time you need to stay fit in the manner that you want to stay fit? Do you attend her triathalon events?

Another update...

I installed a key logger on wife's pc last night and cuaght her sending e-mails to OM (they were polite "thanks for the info" sort of thing. I challenged my wife on these and she denied them time and again. Eventually I told her that I had guesses her e-mail password and she went quiet. I rang the OM and left a message on his cellphone telling him to back off. I told her she had a choice - divorce or cut this guy out and commit to us - she chose the latter. She agreed to send an e-mail to tell him no communication. All well and good but then...

Later in the day the key logger picked up no e-mail, she insisted there was one but wouldn't let me see it. I also monitored her scanning the internet for virtually the whole day while the children were lfet to entertain themselves. She chnaged her password three times during the day and looked a loads of bike sites. She eve tried to hack my e-mail account (she could have looked if she wanted as I have nothing to hide) which she also denied.

Then she went our for a race and I was about to delete the key logger as she had told me she was committed to us. However the key logger picked up an e-mail from him saying that he had lost her text number but that I kept calling him. I told my wife and she freaked especially when I said she couldn't deny stuff as it was on a key logger - so now she knows

She came back from the race and told me how I was a psycho, a stalker, a weirdo and that the sight of me made her sick. I stayed calm and said that the ssue was that she had been caught. She got angrier and angrier and told me to get out of our bedroom for the night beore she killed either me or herself. I insisted I had done nothing wrong and it was my bed too - she could move. She went nuts and started screaming and being very threatening so I said for tonight I would go to the spareroom but it was my bed and I was back there tomorrow.

This is getting very scarey now - I can't see any way ahead apart from divorce. I'll wait and see how the land lies tomorrow - I haven't even exposed her and the OM yet (my courage is starting to fail to be honest). I guess I have virtually nothing to lose now but how to do it?

If she says she wants a divorce shall I calmly collect the papers from the solicitors to call her bluff?

The longer this goes on the less I recognise any remaining part of my wife and wonder if maybe divorce is the way. Still I know that the real lady I married is in there somewhere but I just can't find her.

I am really worried she will turn nasty with the divorce and limit my access to the children. They need me more than ever, she is all over the place and obsessed with her triathlon.

My brain feels like it is going to implode now, let alone when I wake to another barrage of abuse and hatred tomorrow.

Anyone got any advice????? please!!!

YES I HAVE ADVICE!!!!!!!

Stop telling her what you know as soon as you know it!!!!

She will figure out the PC is being tracked.

Document all your proof and go into stealth mode.

Don't let your guard down.

Stop trying to force her into telling you something because you will drive the affair further underground.

The person you knew as your wife--she's not there. She's not necessarily gone forever, but right now she's been possessed by an alien.

You should treat her as you would a crack addict.

Don't expect to be able to reason with her. Expect that she will lie to you. Catching her in the lie will do you no good.

This may be hard to believe, but the sooner you can realize that she is a different person right now, the easier the rest of this will be.

The affair is your enemy. Until it is dead, you won't get anywhere with your marriage. I wouldn't even bother talking about it with her. She's not capable of hearing you.

She will only hear the bad stuff that you do (like catching her in lies). She will use it against you. Right now what she wants to do is carry on with the affair. She will be grasping at anything she can use to justify why that seems like a good idea.

This is why you expose. Expose to everyone. Don't threaten--you're not trying to exert power over her or exact something from her, you're trying to kill the affair. Expose. Make it miserable for them to keep doing it.

Nothing good will happen for your marriage until the affair is over.

Sorry you're here, but this is the right place.

You did well. Her response is not surprising and is pretty typical.

Your big mistake was one I made. You revealed that you knew and how you knew it. She'll now go deeper underground and will hide her affair much more because you revealed your cards.

But other than that, you handled the other stuff well.

We told you she would flip.

You didn't do bad.

Stick to plan A and the 180. You will not lose custody.

You didn't answer before. Are you british? Canadian?

The laws there are different, that's why I ask.

But keep documenting. And keep spying.

I'm A Brit.

I am not sure who to expose to the main ones I guess are the triathlon crowd that they are both part of, including the OM's landlord. Her family are scared of her, not sure whether that would help. There are other friends but they are very much on the peripherary as her traithlon is everything.

I am very nervous to expose because although I have little to lose at this stage, she goes into the most awful vindictive rages.

Should I expose through e-mail? by phone to a couple of key people? or in person to his landlord and landlady that he rents from (landlady is one of my wife's friends but is a bit of a gossip). They would put a lot of pressure on OM too.

What's best plan of attack?

Do not be shakened by her rages. They are likened to a child who has his favorite toy taken away at bedtime. Or a crack addict in fear of losing their source for a "fix". It's only a bluff to get you to back off. It will get much worse as she starts to see that you are not backing down. Once she realizes she can no longer bluff you she will finally start to come around. Unfortunately this takes time.
Keep doing the Plan A. No love busters or detrimental judgements. Expose, Expose, Expose. If you want to save your marriage you have to be prepared to fight for it. That means enduring her rages, but staying firm. Don't be a doormat. She will not respect you if you just let her run all over you.

Listen to the other posters here, they know what they are talking (posting) about.

Shaken

You need to double scared as a man in Britain. British family law is lagging. Don't forget the men dressed as super heroes protesting and hanging from Parliament. These sad souls are father's who don't get to see their children because Mom's are heavily favored in family court there.

Now, are you a Brit in the States? That's a different story. We have mom bias here as well, but it isn't as bad.

So pull yourself together and set your fear aside or one day you will be wearing a Flash Gordon suit and mask and will have a constable cuffing you because you're hanging off the London Bridge and protesting with the other poor souls who don't get to see their kids and want legal reform and father's rights.

That would be funny if it wasn't true.

So shake off the fear and stop fearing your wife or you and your kids will pay for it.

Believe it or not, immediately after exposure is one time you DO want to see her angry. You are taking away her secret shiny plaything. You're holding it up in public where it looks tawdry and tarnished. She is going to be ANGRY that you ruined her special love affair.

Do NOT tell her you're going to expose.
DO expose to everyone at once.
Send those emails, make those phone calls, and pay those visits - all in one afternoon.

The sooner you expose the better.

The more hateful venom she spews as a result of your exposure, the better. Every time she says
"We had a chance but you've ruined it"
"I hate you"
"I can't trust you at all now" (a personal fave)
"This is nobody else's business"
just put it through your new filter of knowledge so that what you hear is "You are ruining my affair; it's not nearly so fun now that it's no longer secret. Now it looks tarnished and broken and I hate what it looks like. I hate losing my fantasy."

Expose NOW.
Stand up for your marriage NOW.

I think we are making progress!!

After my wife received the e-mail from the OM two days ago that said "Haven't got your cellphone number to text. He keeps ringing me", she sent a reply e-mail stating:

You do not need my cellphone number, I have deleted your too. My husband read you e-mail and that's why he was tring to contact you. I should not have sent you an e-mail (the e-mail was the polite one saying thanks for kicking he butt about getting mher race entry in, with no romantic overtones) and will not be contacting you again. Please do not contact me again and please do not reply to this e-mail.

So the affair is now dead and I believe now has been dead for 4 weeks.

My wife is struggling with finishing the relationship as she misses the friendship and has told me she regrets it ever being physical as she has ruined a good friendship. I believe her.

So I have not exposed her but am convinced the affair is over.

My wife has asked for a bit of space to sort her head out and has moved into the spare room in her words for the time being.
I am happy with this as I need space too to be honest. I guess this will give her the chance to mourn her OM and get it all out of her system.

I has a good nights sleep for the first time in a month. The affair IS over and now how ever it does end up - we have a chance for the future.

To be honest, I haven't really thought past this point as to how we move forward from here.

I think I should continue with the 180 for a while (which as I understand consitutes giving her space) until I get a positive sign from her that she wants to work on our marriage. But what should I do then?

My gut feel is that I need to show her how good our marriage could be but do it slowly. Then see how she responds.

Also any advice as to how I can get through the scars of the affair, whatever the outcome from here (happy marriage or divorce)

Thank you all so much for your advice and support... please keep it coming, you have got me so far already. Hope is returning and I am starting to find a little bit of inner peace.

Beware of her saying she's willing to work on things. Mine said the same and I was divorced within a month. She told me what I needed to hear to lower my guard while she consulted lawyers and set herself up legally.

All I'm saying is be careful.

She may not want to talk to OM, but she is still wayward and may look elsewhere.

That email is a great sign. It was well worded and to the point, showing no consideration for his fragile feelings (puke, puke).

Her desire to move into the guest room, though, is confusing. Usually a "need for space" means "I need some privacy so I can carry on my A" so do keep your eyes open.

I think the 180 is a great place for you to be right now.

Does your wife say she's sorry for the A and wants to work things out in the M, or is she still trying to figure out what she wants?

If she wants to work on the A then ask her to move back into your bedroom, and ask her to read through "Surviving An Affair" with you, and do the questionnaires and share them. Spend time with the book, don't just gloss over it.

If she's still trying to figure out what she wants, she could be going through withdrawal from OM (a necessary stage) or she could still be in the A.

Hey TH, don't cha mean "if she wants to work on the "M" (marriage) as opposed to the "A"?

YIPE!!!!

Can you tell I think that moving to the extra bedroom might mean she's still in the A?


Yes, if she wants to work on the M. The M !!!

She is all over the place!!!...

Now she says she hates me and that we should divorce and split everything 50:50 and share the children. She says I have gone to far for us too ever be a married couple again.

She says I have made her paranoid with my snooping - keylogging her pc, looking at her mobile phone bill etc. She says I am a stalker and a psycho. The fact that she had an affair and then got caught breaking the promise of NC seems irrelevant to her. She thought I had been stalking her all day today (when I was at work as usual).

She also thinks that now I am trying to get my life back together, that in socialising I am trying to win over our friends (which I am not)

She really hates me now.

Now I guess I have three options:

1) Carry on with the 180 (which is freaking her out) and if she wants a divorce then she can kick it off.
2) Start the divorce proceedings myself so I have control (call her bluff and also have the option to name the OM)
3) Expose her (although I do believe the affair is over) and face the wrath and risk her taking me to the cleaners in the divorce courts where I would get a very poor access deal to my children)

Really appreciate your advice again please all...

OK..I have finaly done it.

I have exposed the affair.

To four people at the triathlon club (two of whom the OM lodges with), my parents, and my wife's parents (who are divorced). I told my wife and she freaked out completely - she has told her mum that I had an affair 4 years ago while away on business - which is a complete lie. She is now discrediting me to anyone that knows about the affair. I am so hurt and discussed by her accusations and slander. I have never even looked at another person from the day I first gazed into her beautiful eyes.

I can see no way back from this now, all is lost.

I built my dreams on the foundations of my love for my wife, two beautiful children, a lovely house, good job...and it is all crashing down.

She says she has wanted a divorce for 6 years, she never loved me, I make her feel sick, she is aking up lies about me to tell others (worse she is convincing herself of them).

This is my worst nightmare and more... what do I do?????

Do I wait and try and hang it out while she continues like normal treating me like a doormat. Or maybe she files for divorce?

Or do I start the divorce ball rolling myself?

I still love her so much, but she is SO far away and the jounrey back is very hard and long and she has no thoughts of even trying.

Please give and thoughts or advice, you guys are my life-line.

Keep 180'ing and plan a'ing.

What she is doing is common. Her fantasy world has just gotten a big dose of reality. People now know of her "nice" little secret and she is spewing venom like a spitting cobra on steroids.

All that she is saying is standard wayward fog babble. Lots of the posters here have heard the same thing. Watch her actions and not her words.

She is slandering you in order to save face. She knows that she is wrong, but doesn't want people to see this side of her. So she is trying to do damage control.

Keep doing what you are doing and keep reiterating that you are trying to save your marriage.

This is insane!

We were supposed to be going to a wedding together today and staying overnight. She went on her own and rang to say goodnight to the children then said that I had blown it forever now. She said that yesterday she was ready to give it her all and had phoned the OM to tell him in no uncertain terms it was over. She says I have now blown it as I have trashed her life with her friends by exposing her. I fell for it to start off with and got upset - but now I realise this may just be the wounded animal striking out.

Bit confused on what I should do next...

1)Continue the 180 and ignore her wanting a divorce, refusing to discuss? (Hence assuming that the anger from the exposure needs time to calm down)

2)Continue the 180 and start the divorce process myself? (Taking control and showing her that I really am moving on)

3)anything else?

I really need the advice, as I feel the next step is critical following this extreme anger from the exposure.

Just ignore her anger. Continue to reply to her vicious words with calm words, then change the subject.

You did the right thing my friend.

Just ride out this storm.

Can't believe it..

The xposure has driven her BACK to OM. Her friends are divided some have been harsh others very supprtive of her.

She now feels that as it is all out in the open that this is the time to move on and hence she wants a divorce now.

She has told everyone this.

She has asked OM if he is happy to be named as adulterer to enable for a quickie divorce and he has agreed (so he can get his sticky paws on her quicker no doubt).They are no openly in contact.

She is prepared to split custody 50:50 - which is one blessing.

Over the last few weeks she has got everything lined up:

How to get our house valued, legal advise, started looking for jobs, house hunting for herself.

I now have no choices left do I? I have lost my true love forever now.

Thank you all for the support and guidance yoou have given me, I guess I'll be in the divorcing/divorced forum now

May you all fare better.

It is way to early to throw in the towel. You have just exposed the affair and that takes a while to work. Secret affairs are much more fun than open affairs.

Protect yourself as much as you can financially, and also stall the divorce if you can. Insist on joint custody.

Does she work outside the home? Does OM make good money?

We warned you about what she'd say. It's almost predictalbe. It's amazing how many wayward wives "were on the verge of giving things a chance" when you, the BH blew it through exposure.

Uncanny how often that happens.

Listen, this is typical. Ride out the storm of her anger. You did the right thing.

You're feeling dispair but don't. You grew a pair and did the right things.

She wants divorce? Then let her do all the work for it. Don't make it easy and sure as hell don't agree to 50/50 when she's gone 98% of the time.

Document. You should have filed for abandonment already.

You don't realize this, and I heard it a ton from my family when I was in your shoes: You're holding all the cards yet you can't see it.

Your emotions are getting the best of you right now. It's understandable. I was there. I feared what you fear.

You did the right thing.

the thing is that she is not angry - Quite the contrary!!

She is now clamer and more relaxed than I have seen her in years. She says she is relieved that the message is finally getting through. She is in full contact with OM again and even said that she has arranged other ways of communicating with him. Also that now we are getting divorced that she can see him whenever she likes as it's her business. She is genuinely happy.

I am now in turmoil as I don't know if there is ANY chance of her changing her mind and indeed with the way she is behaving that maybe this would really be the best thing for me to.

Part of my reason for wanting to be with my wife (as well as obviously I still love her) is my fear of having to start again with my life and being alone.

Do I just continue with plan A /180?

Has she moved out? If not, make her.

Have the children been told age appropriately? If not, it should be done.

Your wife needs to start seeing the ramifications of her choices.

Good job you recognized this as the wounded animal striking out. This is the single most common response to exposure.

Absolutely do NOT start the divorce process yourself!
That's like prepping yourself for a surgery you don't want.

Waywards frequently run to the other person following exposure. They're hardly going to come running to the BS, who they perceive as the sole cause for all their unhappiness. You really think she's going to file for divorce and marry this jerk as soon as possible, when only two or three days ago she "had phoned the OM to tell him in no uncertain terms it was over"?

Her affair isn't over, nor has she filed for divorce. She's just having a hissy fit. Let her. This is good. The bigger the reaction, the more impact you've had on her. It shows that she DOES care what people think and that she IS ashamed and embarrassed to have the whole world know what she's doing.

Keep up your 180, and your mantra now is "I'll do whatever it takes to save my marriage." You're doing very well, although it doesn't feel like that right now.

I'm really struggling now...

I ahve sort of come to terms with the fact that we will split which is making the 180 easier, but then when I intercepted an e-mail that told a female friend of hers that life was stressful as she was making divorce arrangements as things had been difficult for 6 years but come to ahead over the last few months when she has been having an affair.

She is being completely open with everyone about it and to see it in black and white really hurts.

I really want to save this marriage but I know I must not break the 180. We have dinner out next week to talk about the divorce (her request) and I need to save the talking to then.

Do I just keep going hoping that she will change her mind????

There were a couple of signs this morning (unless I am reading too much into thing) such as:

She said "you can't blame me that you didn;t have breakfast this morning" I replied that "I don't blame her for anything anymore it's in the past" She said that "you should do"

Also that she sorted some stuff out last night when she went out (she came back very down) and that what goes around comes around - I think (hope) this may mean that she has dropped OM thought by a tone of another e-mail she may have had an liaison on the night of the wedding with someone else so maybe she has confessed that to OM!!

There must be something else I can do, I feel so hopeless.

Can you describe the detail of your 180 plan here so that people can give you feedback.

Have you told her that you are willing to proceed with divorce? You should be saying that you don't talk divorce, that you only talk marrige with her. If she does move out, the kids are staying with you-right? Why should you settle for split custody. If she moves out and you are able to drag out the divorce, you could go for full custody. That is assuming that she moves out instead of coming out of her fog.

Describe your 180 behaviors and your plan A behaviors. Also tell us how you are letting her know that you are all about marriage and that divorce is for the attorneys.

What do you plan to tell her at this meeting she wants with you about the so called divorce?

EEEEEEEKKKKKKKK!!!! - I think I have got it all wrong...

I thought the 180 was designed to show that I was moving on (ie. without her) with the idea that she would back track and want to give things a try.

The plan A I have been trying is to show her that I am strong and can control my own life, that I am a great father.

The 180, I thought was to show her that I was moving on from her as above. She said she wanted a divorce and I agreed that if that is what she wanted we would give each other space and talk about it later. She said that as we had a babysitter already arranged for then that we could discuss her divorce research then. I have also told her I was working on rebuilding my life and being friends with her!!

It sounds like I have completely misunderstood - what do I do????

Shall I give her the space she has asked for until next week when we go out and then say I won't discuss divorce only how we take our marriage forward or should I tell her now?

The risk I am taking here is that I have solicitor advice that the system in UK means that I would normally only get visitation rights to the children and she wants to do it out of court and split everything 50:50, which is a good deal.

How do I get this all back on track?

Yet again I have stuffed up, every action I have taken is and has caused a mess. I am trying everything I can to solve this but keep getting everything wrong... PLEASE,PLEASE HELP

Just wanted to add:

She has her mind completely set on a divorce and has told all her friends so.

I need to tell her that:

"I have been reflecting on the events of the past 6 years during which your unhappiness has been expressed and Divorce is not an option I am prepared to consider or discuss. However, I would be more than happy that when you feel ready, we talk about how we are going to move our marriage forward in a way that we can best meet each other needs and be happy. Until that time I will be concentrating on finding the balance of personal happiness in my life that has been missing in recent years."

Does this sound about right? any comments or edits?

Should I be more emotional in terms of aspirations for our marraige or should I leave it like this as she is still deep in the fog of affair and it's exposure?

I was thinking of doing this by leaving it as a note on her bed so that she cannot argue back and has time to absorb it.

Respond to Lake's post - those were very good questions.

I like your note/speech about not wanting to talk D but wanting to rebuild the marriage.

Did she move to another bedroom, or did you?
If you moved, time to move back into YOUR bedroom - tonight!
If she moved to the guest room, not a lot you can do about that.

How are you doing? It sounds as though you are in the middle of deciding if you want to continue to Plan A your wife and also make divorce difficult for her (drag out proceedings) or if you want to go ahead and allow her to get the divorce and increase your chances of getting 50-50 custody of the children.

Given your statement that you feel that you are risking access to your children by continuing to make divorce dificult for her, I think it's difficult to provide you with advice on how to proceed. Your children are primary in this situation.

Did you say you are in Gr. Britain? Could you put a shout out to others from Gr. Britain?--Maybe change the title of your thread to get more specific feedback?

Yet another update...

I have no idea what plan I am on anymore, I think I am off-piste!

My wife is still sleeping in the spare room and there looks like little chance of that changing. She still wants a divorce (with 50:50 custody)and is making preparations (those these have gone a bit quiet the last few days). I have agree that if she wants a divorce then that's what we will do, but it is not what I really want. The most important thing though here is the children. For their sake I have agreed that I will not stand in the way of a divorce and that for their sake it would help if we could be friends.

She is shaken up still from the exposure and I think the OM has now called it off (hence her comment what goes around comes around) but I have not asked her about this or confirmed - I have given up snooping.

I am focussed entirely on me at the moment - I have looked into finances, renewed a few lost friendships (which feels great) and though about the options that being single would present (buy a boat on the river, try new sports, etc.). I am still nervous about the future but more confident I will survive. I believe 99% that the marriage is over but feel the steps of getting my life together and finding myself are critical to my happiness whatever happens.

The funny thing is that as I get stronger, my wife seems to be getting less happy with her lot (maybe cos affair might be over, future money/getting job concerns, loss of lifestsyle and training?). Her 'dream' future without me is not starting to look quiet so rosey.

I told her that if she was short of money when we split that I would make sure she had enough to do anything she wanted with the kids but that I would not support her own lifestyle ( bike kit, triathlon, shopping etc.) I am being annoyingly reasonable to her.

I did mention last night when she was worrying that maybe she should think about whether a divorce is really what she wants and she said "ok, I will" - previously it was "why can;t I get it into your head that I've wanted this for 6 years!" - so a small improvement.

My plan is to keep doing the same, let her control the momentum of the divorce process, and I will be reasonable and focus on my future alone. If she changes her mind then we can discuss working on our marriage but it will need to include my terms such as:

No contact with OM
Reduction in training and change in triathlon club
Protected family time
Protected couple time
My own life and space.
Counselling

I am still crazy about my wife, but my head knows that the situation even before the affair was not one that I was at all happy with. I feel ambivalent between divorce or a proper renewing of our marriage - the only thing I don't want is what our marriage was for the last 4 years before the affair - I deserve better.

I am stronger now and more determined. I do still have my deep love for my wife playing games with my heart but I will survive.

I know I am off the plans at the moment but it is finding me a bit of peace and seems to be melting my wifes frostiness a little. Meanly, I am actually enjoying her looking so miserable!!

I would really value and apprecaite your thoughts, as ever, on this 'off-piste' venture.

Best wishes all.

Listen, you're exactly where I was. EXACTLY!

I was railroaded into a D I didn't want. You know how I ended up? Royally f'ed!

Now, please do the following:

Don't agree to a divorce you don't want and refuse to discuss it with her in any way.

Make it clear to her that you will not be her friend if you divorce. She has this fantasy image in her head that once you work through your hurt you and her will be great friends for the kids. Trust me. I've lived that idea and guess what? We're not friends.

You are dealing with the shock of it all still and are making HUGE mistakes.

Why, why, why are you letting this woman stay in your home while still in an affair?

Why don't you cut her off financially?

Let her know that if she chooses divorce you will not just lay down for her and that you will seek FULL custody.

If I had you in front of me I'd shake you to try to wake you up to how you're going to royally F yourself by agreeing to a divorce you don't want.

You see, she's convinced this is going to be easy. She's convinced you two will be friends and life will be grand once the grass is greener on the other side.

Guess what will happen to you if you D? You will move on. You'll start living life again. You'll go through the stages of grief and anger is the nastiest, most scary stage you will go through. And it will show in one way or another.

Are you documenting?

Where is your proof of an affair?

Are you documenting how much time you spend with the kids versus her?

Trust me when I tell you: You will get over her. Once you do you will wish you had FULL custody because a cheating adulterous woman is not a good mother. Anyone who willingly destroys a family deserves all the bad karma coming to them>

So please wake up. Stop the defeatist talk and wake up!

So what do you do?

You refuse to discuss divorce and you let her know, very kindly, that you will not support or willingly participate in the destruction of your marriage. You will only talk about marriage and fixing it and will not make a divorce easy.

She's blow her lid and become a possessed crazy woman when you say this, but expect it.

You then implement the 180. Google 180 and infidelity and you'll find it. That's how you act.

Didn't she leave your home?

Document, document, document.

Don't voluntarily participate in a divorce you don't want.

You don't understand something that a person who has been through the process understands: It's grueling, long and difficult. It is even more so when one of the parties drags things out and makes it that way.

How long? Depends on the state. Maryland requires 1 year of separation before even starting the process. And you sure as heLL are not going to be the one to leave your home.

Please don't.

Don't be like me! I went along with all the demands and got royally screwed! It's taken 2 long years of legal battles and thousands of dollars to get a fair amount of time with the kids.

Don't go along.

You let her do all the legal leg work. You focus on your kids.

Please stop being indecisive and stop letting her control you, because that is exactly what she's doing.

OK.

STOP!!!!!

the 180° and Dr Harley's Plan A are NOT the same thing. You SHOULD be doing PLAN A!!!!!!

Here is Plan A.

Pep's Plan A

Breathe.

This is not over.

Plan A goes hand in hand with the 180. It's not part of Harley's official approach, but it complements his approach very well.

Here's the 180:

180 is a list of behaviors from Michelle Wiener Davis, the author of Divorce Busting, that will help your spouse to see you moving forward as a healthy person. I would highly suggest that any new BS begin these behaviors as soon as possible. I am convinced that if I had implemented them, I would still be married. In retrospect, I did everything besides 180. I looked pathetic. No one wants to be perceived as pathetic. 180 makes you look strong. Strong is attractive. (Making it)

So here's the list:

Don't pursue reason, chase, beg, plead or implore.

No frequent phone calls.

Don't point out "good points" in marriage.

Don't follow her/him around the house.

Don't encourage or initiate discussion about the future.

Don't ask for help from the family members of your WS.

Don't ask for reassurances.

Don't buy or give gifts.

Don't schedule dates together.

Don't keep saying, "I Love You!" Because if you have a brain in your head, he/she is at this particular moment, not very loveable.

Do more then act as if you are moving on with your life; begin moving on with your life!

Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and independent.

Don't sit around waiting on your spouse - get busy, do things, go out with friends, enjoy old hobbies, find new ones! But stay busy!

When home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation) be scarce or short on words. Don't push any issue? No matter how much you want to!

If you're in the habit of asking your spouse his/her whereabouts, ASK NOTHING. Seem totally uninterested.

Your partner needs to believe that you have awakened to the fact that "they (the WS)" are serious concerning their assertions as to the future (or lack thee of) of your marriage. Thus, you are you are moving on with your life? with out them!

Don't be nasty, angry or even cold - Just pull yourself back.

Don't always be so available? for anything! Your spouse will notice. More important, he/she will notice that you're missing.
No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment? Make yourself be someone they would want to be around. Not a moody, needy, pathetic individual but a self assured individual secure in the knowledge that they have value.

All questions about the marriage should be put on hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may not be for quite a while). Initiate no such conversation!

Do not allow yourself to lose your temper. No yelling, screaming or name calling EVER. No show of temper! Be cool, act cool; be in control of the only thing you can control? YOURSELF!

Don't be overly enthusiastic.

Do not argue when they tell you how they feel (it only makes their feelings stronger). In fact, refuse to argue at all!
Be patient and learn to not only listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you? HEAR what it is that they are saying! Listen and then listen some more!

Learn to back off, keep your mouth shut and walk away when you want to speak out, no matter what the provocation. No one ever got themselves into trouble by just not saying anything.

Take care of you. Exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil.

Be strong, confident and learn to speak softly.

Know that if you can do this 180, your smallest CONSISTENT action will be noticed far more than any words you can say or write.

Do not be openly desperate or needy even when you are hurting more than ever and are feeling totally desperate and needy.

Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse. It's not always about you! More to the point, at present they just don't care!

Do not believe any of what you hear them say and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives and do so in the most strident tones imaginable. Try to remember that they are also hurting and afraid. Try to remember that they know what they are doing is wrong and so they will say anything they can to justify their behavior.

Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel. It "ain't over till it's over!"

Do not backslide from your hard earned changes. Remain consistent! It is the consistency of action and attitude that delivers the message.

When expressing your dissatisfaction with the actions of the wayward party, never be judgmental, critical or express moral outrage. Always explain that your dissatisfaction is due to the pain that the acts being committed are causing you as a person.

This is the kind of behavior that will cause you to be a much more attractive and mysterious individual. Further it SHOWS that you are NOT afraid to move on with your life. Still more important, it will burst their positive little bubble; the one in which they believe that they can always come back to you in case things don't work out with the OM/OW."

I do think that there are serious differences in this 180 Plan and Plan A. It is important the people who want to follow Plan A understand these serious differences.

I am sure that other more experienced posters will chime in but I can start:

In Plan A, you attempt to determine your WS's primary emotional needs and you attempt to meet them as much as the WS will allow you to meet them. You have to be careful not to seem clingy in doing this and you only give them what they appear to be willing to accept from you. This is very different from the 180 described here and is a very important part of Plan A.

In Plan A you also point out reality to the WS. You calmly let them know that you feel hurt when they make contact with the OP. You do not act as though you don't care and that you are moving on with your life.

In Plan A, you do keep busy and move on with your life. However, you invite your WS to join you in any of your plans where it would be reasonable for your WS to join you. Example, taking kids on picnic, or to amusement park? Let WS know that she is welcome to come along. You are letting WS know that you are an enjoyable, active, interesting person and that she is welcome to be part of your life--no begging, no weeping, just a calm invite to be part of the enjoyable times.

When home with your WS, I would not advise you to be short or scarce on words. I would suggest that you read posts by School Bus regarding body language and communication. Depending on your situation, I would suggest you use opportunities that come your way for interesting and positive communication using School Bus' techniques. It requires that you carefully gauge the receptiveness of the WS and do not get into relationship talks where you appear needy. But there are ways to gently touch your WS, or walk in their line of view, or speak to them when they awaken in the morning, or reach across their perceived body space to retreive a glass or other object that are advantageous to your situation with the WS. This seems to be in direct conflict with the Plan 180 described above.

These are some of my thoughts when I read the description of this "180." I am very concerned that people follow Plan A, not this "180," if they want to follow a Marriage Builder Approach. I am sure that others can point out other concerns.

This "180" almost sounds like some kind of combination of Plan A and Plan B. Remember, first Plan A THEN, if needed--Plan B. Do not combine them.

The 180 works.

Plan A can go hand in hand with the 180. You can still look at the EN's of your WS and try to address them. The 180 is a guide on how to act, not hard and fast rules.

Adapt most of it and meld it with Plan A and it will have an impact.

Why not stick with Plan A? What is wrong with Plan A that it needs to be augmented with your "180"?

Thanks for the advice all...

I have decided that as my wife and I are geeting along so badly at the moment and she is 'in love' with the OM, that if I 180'd then that would be fine by her.

Instead I am going to plan A because:

1) It will help me find myself and enjoy life again
2) It will be a friendship back between my wife and I which is critical for us to do the very best by our children
3) It will give my wife a chance to see how good our marriage really could be.

I think I need to do this for at least a month, building up slowly so that it is not too obvious.

At the moment she 100% wants divorce, has said that she loves OM and will not cut off contact, but is not sure what she wants out of it.
We are talking about living in the same house until next October to make things easier for children (our youngest would start school then, find new houses, mortgage tie-ins etc.) and financially.

This gives me a year to save our marriage. It will be tough knowing that she is seeing OM while living under same roof.

We went out for dinner last night and talked about how important we are to each other and how we wanted to do the right thing for all of us. I think I may have uncovered her real issue too in that she says she doesn't want to live with anyone, just have her own space - I know that she has felt like this for a lng time and always enjoys time alone She says she knows she is selfish and just wants to live for herself.

I would be very interested to get advice on how to implement this plan A best and and particularly love a link to the School Bus post as mentioned by lake53 please

Thanks all.

which schoolbus post are you wanting.
BTW, that "I just want space" thing... they nearly all say that.
Its just helps them indulge in their A with less interferrance.

Lil

The space thing is an opportunity for her not to have to be know as my wife or the childrens mother, but to be herself. This is important to her and I think she is right. This may allow her to indulge in the affair but I want her to WANT to spend that time with me. As such I need to make being with me as attractive a proposition as possible.

Hence, any tips for the best plan A ever would be hugely welcome.

Lake53 gave me a good start and hopefully if someone can provide a link to School Bus' post about communication & body language then I can earn my wife's respect, friendship, affection and I hope love to save or marriage.

Please post ALL good plan A ideas / suggestions ... I got a marriage to a beautiful, special lady to save!!

I bumped one of Schoolbus' Info threads up for you.

DBNO,

Buddy, seriously, you're messing up. The 180 and Plan A go hand in hand. Read it again. There's nothing in the 180 that contradicts Plan A. You can still make a loving home and many changes and implement the 180 and Plan A together. They go hand in hand.

You can still make a warm and welcoming home.

So you're telling me that you are going to tolerate a woman living with you and cheating on you at the same time? Come on!

This is where you need to man up! Where's your pride and dignity?!

How can she respect you when you act this way?!

This stuff about living alone is fog speak. She'll shack up with OM the second she can. Trust me. It's all bs talk. I'm saying this because I heard it all!

Are you financially supporting her? What are you paying for?

Who have you exposed to?

Have you confronted OM?

Laying down and being passive will lead you straight to divorce. You must understand that you and your wife aren't different or special. She isn't unique in her behavior. I MADE THE SAME MISTAKE!

I thought, "The people on MB don't know my WW. They just don't understand. She is different and I'm sure we'll be back together before long."

So in the meantime she's asking you to live with the indignity of her being your wife while she goes out and screws another man while living in the home you pay for with your children.

COME ON!

Please have some dignity and not tolerate this!

I dealt with this crap but wouldn't have been able to for very long. It was only a month for me and I dealt with the same indignity you're dealing with. I stayed at home on Friday and Saturday nights while she got all dressed up to go to clubs and flirt with other men.

I look back in shame that I didn't kick her butt out for that. You will too someday.

Think about it: you stay home and babysit the kids while she goes out to screw someone else!

Please! Don't do this to yourself!

Can you not understand that this makes her lose all respect for you?!

Can you not understand that what you are doing now is exactly what you'll regret doing later?

Don't take my word for it. Call SH.

But you should confront the OM.

This is your FAMILY! Stand up for it! Do something!

Being passive and hoping she changes her mind isn't going to get you anywhere but divorced and separated from your kids!

Trust me! Please stop being a doormat.

Plan A involves a carrot in addition to a stick.

Yes, you create a warm, welcoming environment in the home where you show her you're the man she fell in love with.

Did the man she fall in love with follow her everywhere? Did he weep all the time? Did he tolerate her sleeping with other men?

Did he stand on the sidelines warmly smiling while she paraded other men in front of him?

Or did she fall in love with a MAN? Someone who had self respect and self confidence? Someone who didn't let himself get walked on?

Plan A involves a stick. Exposure. Behavior that doesn't SUPPORT infidelity. So you're going to give her a home to sleep in while she carries on her affair.

You going to fill up her tank too? Pay her insurance and cell phone to call OM?

Why don't you buy her the condoms? Perhaps you can book the hotel rooms for her or plan a romantic getaway while you're at it.

Maybe you can sit next to the bed while they screw in front of you and fetch them water between sessions.

Seriously, how can she respect a man who allows this in his own home?

I'm being harsh, but you're lacking a ton of dignity.

I WAS JUST LIKE YOU!

So what happened to me?

Railroaded into a divorce I didn't want. I gave her everything she asked for and wanted, thinking "If I don't make this difficult, then we can be back together."

So I let her keep everything from our marriage, including primary custody of the kids. All the while thinking, "She'll come back. I'll have my family again. We can be together again."

It never happened. I made it easy for her and she ran with it. So what happened after she was officially free?

She found a new man, moved him in with her and made it very tough for me to see my kids. 2 years and thousands of legal fees later I finally have a decent arrangement to see the kids.

My love for her? Dead. Gone. But my desire to be a father isn't and that has been an ongoing legal battle that isn't over.

You want to be me? Because that's exactly where you're headed. I heard all the same garbage you're being told. Pretty soon she'll tell you that perhaps you guys can be together again after "some time apart to heal."

You'll buy it hook line and sinker and give her exactly while she wants. All the while she prepares to stab you in the back and maneuver you into giving her everything. So in a year or two you can watch as another man sits on your couch, watches your TV, and screws your now ex wife on the bed you paid for while getting to see your kids more than you.

You? You'll be living alone and trying to put your life back together and THEN you'll get mad.

So don't go down that road.

You're making it easy for her, which is NOT Plan A!

So what do you do?

Stop funding her in any way. That's a right deserved for spouses.

Break all your accounts with her (I got cleaned out by my ex because I trusted her).

Cancel all credit cards belonging to the two of you or to her (marital debt will fall on both of you).

Do NOT let her use marital assets to see OM. So the car you pay for shouldn't be used for that. Sell the car if you need to.

She wants a divorce and wants independence. Give it to her in spades.

Make her feel the reality.

Let her know that if she walks out of your home to go on a date with OM, that she will return to find the locks on the house changed and that you won't let her back in.

Believe me. Standing up for yourself and your marriage will get you a lot further than being namby pamby and supporting her infidelity through inaction.

Women return to men who fight for their marriages. They don't come back to men who make their affairs easy.

Have you confronted OM? Have you threatened him with an AOA lawsuit? Have you told him that if he continues to see your wife you're going to make him sorry for that?

Seriously, man up!

I'm trying to help you stand up. I'm not trying to beat you down. Please, others, especially FWWs, please thrown in your two cents on this!

Listen to Pom

Stop watching the @&**^% soapies and pay attention.

A Lifesavers maxim is "First get the man out of the water, then get the water out of the man".

I guess this translates to "First remove your wife from the OM, then get the thought of OM out of her".

It is your responsibility as a husband to disable their contact.

Do we have to tell you that you have a right to be angry.

Whining and respecting her space is just BS BS. Where is her hero to rescue her from herself? He has gone to the land of touchy, touchy, feely, feely.

Man! it is your job to lead her back to the marriage, not leave her in the quagmire of her emotions. Don't cop out.

Anything else... Hand in your man card.

It is very important that you understand that you are wrong in your belief that she should be allowed to not have to be known as your wife and the mother of children.

This is the very fog talk and thought that will KEEP her involved in the affair.

She will not come out of her affair if you allow her be known as a single woman with no children.

No carrot in the world will work if you let her do this.

I think you are making a wise choice to stay away from that "180" plan as I think it confuses you. You still need to absorb the carrot and the stick of Plan A. You are right to keep other Plans out of the mix.

But, you can't continue down the road stated in your quote above. Whenever possible, you and the children should attend her triathlon events. They frequently have pasta dinners associated with the events that you should attend. You do need to continue to talk to your mutual friends and let them know that you are still the husband.

You do need to be a strong man who does not want his wife involved with another man. You are not friends with your wife and you don't want to establish that kind of a relationship with her. You are her husband and you want to be her husband and her lover. Being her "friend" implies that you are not her lover.

I think that the parts of that "180" that encouraged you to act as though you were 'moving on with your life without her' made it too easy for you to avoid confrontations regarding her wayward behavior.

You still seem to be avoiding that part of PLAN A.

Exactly who is the Other Man? Does he participate in these triathlon events also? Where do your friends stand on this situation? Can't you make it uncomfortable enough for this other man so that he decides she is not worth it?

Lake,

There's nothing in the 180 that contradicts Plan A. It's a good guide on how to act when things are so messed up. It's a guide. They aren't hard and fast rules, but if you look at the 180, it's focused on attractive behaviors in the BS and avoids the unattractive ones. Things like:

Don't follow the spouse around the house.

Don't talk about the good things in the marriage.

Don't beg, weep, or plead.

These are all unattractive behaviors.

"Carrying on with your life" doesn't mean ignoring your spouse. It means that it shows your spouse that you have a life outside of her. This IS attractive and it is certainly more attractive than sitting at home on a Friday night while she's out with OM.

So if she's out with OM, he could be out with the kids and taking them places or hiring a sitter while they sleep and at least giving the appearance of doing something other than sitting at home waiting for WW to come home after her bedroom escapades are over with OM.

He needs to confront OM. He needs to call OM's family and friends.

He needs to make the relationship with her and OM difficult. If she continues this, after he Plan A's and provides good memories for her, then he can and should kick her a$$ out the door to be with OM.

She wants independence? Then by all means, get out of the home I'm paying for, get your own car, insurance, phone plan, etc. Go be the independent woman you wish to be and don't call me while you're at it. The kids and I will be just fine. The door is open for W to return home. Otherwise stay out and go be with OM while I live my life and the kids and I continue to be a family.

THAT is what he should do.

Growing a pair is a start. Being attractive by being a man and not just laying down and accepting this incredible amount of disrespect.

It would be great if some FWWes weighed in here.

I'm not an expert by any means but alot of what P is saying here is correct.

If she wants to separate then do not pay for ANYTHING. She wants to be independent then let her. "Space?" She's doing to be shacked up with OM before you know it. Is he married? Girlfriend? Can you expose to them?

Are you documenting the threats she made against you? The next time she does that call the police. Also while you're at it be very careful that you don't give her any reason to call them and make a false report. That has happened before on MB.

If she's talking to OM in your home tell her loudly "Do not call your affair partner from our home"

And tell her "I do marriage, my attorney does divorce" Have you checked into what your legal options are? Wouldn't hurt for you to do so.

She was never in NC with OM, trust me on this- they just went further underground.

I think you could benefit from a call with the Harleys. Please think about investing in that.

Are you in Britain or the States?

Take advantage of the exchange rate and call the Harley's. Believe me, it's cheaper than a divorce lawyer.

Please, please, please beware of British family law. Seeing those men dressed as super heroes and getting arrested was very dramatic. All they were were men who wanted to see and spend time with their children.

I don't know if things have changed in England in terms of Father's rights but you're in serious danger of losing contact with your children if you don't get your head out of your butt and start being a man.

Things in the States are getting better and father's are finally being recongnized as important to children, but other countries are lacking and I got the impression that things in England are very bad.

So it is very important for you, as a man, to start thinking clearly because you're not.

Listen to coachswife. She's a FWW and knows what she's talking about.

But beware of your rights as a father. THAT is more important than anything. Being a father to your children is more important than anything else and protecting that is easier now than later.

There is a carrot and a stick to Plan A. He needs to read Plan A and the carrot and the stick of Plan A and implement them. I think the "180" confused him and he ended up using the "moving on with his life" aspect of the "180" as an out to confrontation that is needed in the stick of Plan A.

Look, I don't want to get into a debate here about this "180" and Plan A.

I don't want to debate plan A and the 180 either. I do not however think he's done enough Plan A. To me, when I was wayward, the 180 would have just confirmed to me that my ExH didn't want me. That's just me.

But he does need to move on with his life. Moving on doesn't mean divorce.

It means carrying on with life and living it and not sitting around waiting for WW to get her head out of her a$$.

So yes, by all means, carry on with your life. Take your kids places. Go out with friends. Get in shape. Eat well.

When do waywards often react? When the BS starts moving on. So fake it till you make it.

There was a story on here on MB which I wish I could find. A woman dealt with her WH living with another woman. He'd come home to her twice a week for dinner and SF and would string her along.

Well, she got her act together and started distancing herself from him. She set her boundaries and did what is counter intuitive. She made him think he was losing her. She faked outings with friends where she looked as if she was going on a date when he came around. He'd ask where she was going, dressed like a million bucks, and all she'd say was "out".

He'd see her and she'd have suitcases in the trunk of her car and she would make sure he saw them.

Where was she going? Nowhere. She would go out to the library or with friends. But she didn't look like she was sitting around the house waiting for WH to come home for his next meal and SF.

So he started to think he was losing her and he came to his senses and recommited to the marriage.

It's one of the greatest success stories of MB and I wish I could find it.

Same goes with Mortarman, who is in the MB hall of fame. He didn't make anything easy for his WW. They went to court and she basically lost a ton of time with her kids in the divorce process. She came to her senses before the D was official and they are now in recovery. The difference between them and our good friend here is that they took action, started to move on with their lives or gave the impression of doing so. They Plan A'd, kept on the high road, and really didn't cave to their wayward's demands.

MM had a ton of time with his kids. There's others here who have done a lot of stuff and have had success by being strong, not by being indecisive and fearing the wayward's anger.

The 180 is Plan A. It gets results. They're not different plans.

Chrisner agrees and I hope he throws his two cents into the debate. There's a lot of vets here who see them as one and the same plan. There's nothing confusing about the plans either.

The 180 is a guide on how to behave and Plan A is the is the "plan".

SH himself acknowledges that Plan A rarely works.

But the 180 does work and does have immediate results when implemented.

Here's the "Carrot and Stick" of Plan A.

There's nothing in the 180 that contradicts Plan A. It complements it very well.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1640788

I notice that a lot of BS's seem to get the "carrot" part of plan A, but not the stick. Pom, I'm glad you found that link, and Melody just brought it up in a new thread as well. Plan A doesn't work all the time, but it will never work if you don't apply the whole thing including both the carrot AND the stick.

180 is not the MB way.

Plan A is about meeting the wayward's ENs, avoiding LBs and improving yourself.

Here's a good do's and don't's list that Mr. W brought here...

DOs

1. Act Happy
2. Get a life (new activities, etc.)
3. repeat over and over..."I will make it"
4. Actively LISTEN....keep conversations at "to the point...small talk" ...don't blow it up beyond the waywards current comfort zone
5. Tend to Agree (Thank you for your truthfulness, It seems that way, you have a point)
6. Expand your social relationships (Being especially aware of your own vulnerability and keeping sharing and time with opposite sex relationships to an absolute minimum)
7. Get sexy (gym, new clothes, etc)
8. Focus on your strengths and Positives...don't put yourself down verbally or constantly go over what you did wrong
9. Accept Uncertainty (Do your best today and let God take care of tommorrow)

DON'Ts

1. Repeatedly say "I love you"
2. Ask questions that don't have answers yet
3. Criticize, complain, whine or nag
4. Say, "I've changed"....allow the wayward spouse to simply judge your actions
5. Argue, Reason or Plead
6. Don't get family or friends overly involved in recovery (notice I said "in recovery", EXPOSURE to bust up an active affair IS ESSENTIAL and EXPOSURE to the OP's spouse is an absolute MUST)
7. Act helpless or depressed
8. Discuss morality, invoke God or Dr. Laura type babble
9. Suggest marital counseling (must be the waywards idea)
10. Tell them continually "we need to work on the relationship"
11. GIVE UP


It is not unusual for a person to have to move to Plan B after Plan A.

Mortarman did a GREAT Plan B, after a good Plan A.

He gave his WW a good PBL and stayed VERY dark.

I don't remember reading he had done a 180.

Geez, guys. There's room for differing view points here. There is nothing in the 180 that contradicts Plan A. Nothing.

But if you choose to not follow it, then look at the list that Mr. W came up with (which is basically the 180).

Whatever you want to call it, it works.

The 180 is designed to get rid of unattractive behaviors and get rid of love busters. It does that very well if followed.

It's a guide, not a plan.

not out,
are you still there? I know this is a lot of info to digest. But I think everyone here is looking out for your best interest. I think it is important that you tell us exactly what is going on--what conversations and what behaviors are taking place with you, WW and WW and OM.

Also, tell us what you plan to do. Give us some step by step infor regarding your current behaviors and your planned behaviors so we can see more clearly what is going on right now.

Did you meet with your wife for that divorce or separation talk?

It sure sounds like your WW is very foggy and that she is using you right now as a wallet and a child care provider.

Again, it is important that you do not encourage her view of herself as a single woman who does not have children with you.

Are you paying for all of her activity? It sounds like you are having a hard time with sticking to a statement that you don't talk divorce, that lawyers do that.

How angry does she get? I was under the impression she gets verbally angry. I did not get the impression that she got physical with you. Does she? Does she destroy property? Or just yell?

Stay with us here. Together we can help you. What are your boundaries related to her behavior? Tell us more concretly what is going on.

HI all, thank you so much for all the advice, I really appreciate it.
I am trying to follow as best I can but I am losing my way I think. I will answer Lake's questions so you have all the insight you can to help me.

Firstly the situation from my WW point of view:

1) She absolutely wants a divorce, has put the past behind her (our marriage) and only wants to look at the future.
2) Despite the exposure which has shaken her up a bit, she is still in contact with OM by phone and SMS. She hasn't met up with him though. She says he is special and wants to keep seeing him but not sure if as a friend or more. She can't have sex with him even if she wanted to for the next couple of months as she has some gynae problems (perhaps this is karma at work!). She doesn't want a full on relationship with him. OM is besotted with her which is not surprising as he is punchng well out of his league - she is WAY to good for him).
3) She wants us to be best friends and companions but just wants complete control of her own life. She wants us to have shared custody of the children. She is also happy to split all equity 50:50 (which is way better than any UK court would give me)
4) She knows that make ends meet would be tough and that she would have little social life but she wants to be on her own. She has also said that she will not let anyone apart from me play a role in the childrens lives. She doesn't want to have a live in partner ever (she is very sure on this)
5) She is very worried, started drinking a bottle of wine a night, missing training (which is virtually unheard of)
6) I think she may be cooling thoughts on OM a little too but that is only a gut feel from the way she is beahving.
7) She does not love me, but would like to be best friends, but should I not wish that, she is fine with that too and says only the kids would suffer.

My heart and head say:

1) Head says maybe a divorce is best as she has done some serious damage and I am not sure I can get past the affair
2) Heart says she is my soulmate, the most wonderful person in the world and I can't lose her

My behaviours (Try not to critise too much, I am trying!):

1) I have told her that I do not want a divorce and that I still love her
2) I have said that if she is insisting on a divorce then I have no choice but want to be friends
3) I am trying to be there for her if she wants to talk, but not hassling.
4) I have told her that if we split that I would make sure that she and the children wouldn't suffer.
5) When we went our for dinner on Mon evening, we agreed to stay friends.
6) this morning I went into the spare room where she is sleeping and brought her a cup of coffee. I lay next to her and cuddled her and stroked her neck and hair for about 10 mins. I said that it was really nice to have a cuddle and she said "yes it was nice" (which was nice to hear!). I then broke it off and said I had to go to work.
7) she is only sleeping about 1 hour a night so I said that if she wanted company to wake me up. She sasy she is worried about the children.
8) she is showing no anger at all now - she is withdrawn and depressed.

Overall, I am feeling stronger in myself and more positive about the future on my own. She is struggling but is adamant that she does not want me in her life, that is the other aspects that worry her: children, OM, money, hassle of sorting divorce.

We seem to be getting a little closer as friends, which is good but i feel this is only because I am being so nice. My plan was to keep being nice and try to get opportunities for us to have some fun evenigs out together with no heavy talk (we have babysitter for next mon night). I am going to try to string out divorce process and show that I am strong, independent, fun and confident. Also I think the shine will continue to wear off the affair.

This really is a very fragile friendship at the moment with huge distrust on both sides and could easily slip back into contempt. As such I don't want to rock the boat too much in terms of a start of a friendship, but I don't want to lose her. I need advise on where to draw the line.

Please keep the advice coming, I need you all to help me save my family and my happiness.

Sorry to be blunt.

You are totally screwing yourself and your kids.

Act like a man.

What woman wants a man who will let them walk all over him? She sees you as a weak p*ssy! Her OM would not take her crap!

I say, toss her. Go plan B. Get to the gym. Get social. Let her know YOU DON"T NEED HER TO HAVE A GOOD LIFE!!!!

Stop being a pansy doormat!

Ok. So you're in the UK. 50/50 would be good and it is my understanding that that is not very common there.

But you're calling it quits too early.

You're making a classic BH mistake. You're appeasing. Appeasement will get you nothing.

Why is she being nice? Because you're rolling over and doing as she wants.

She knows she has you in the palm of her hand and at her beck and call.

It is for this very reason that a little withdrawl on your part in terms of attention would be noticed by your WW.

She's use to getting it from you.

The idea that you'll stay friends is fooling yourself and she's fooling herself. Anger eventually enters the picture once you're past the initial shock you're in right now. Let me tell you, it's an ugly phaze.

You'll be angry that your life has been turned upside down. You'll be angry for your children and the lack of time you have with them (even in a 50/50 arrangement).

You'll be angry that she's with someone else.

You'll be angry when she acts contradictory to what she's saying right now. She says she wants to be on her own and independent, etc, but believe me, she'll shack up with another man as soon as she can and she'll have that guy around your kids before you know it.

So you have a choice. Appease, which leads nowhere and will just screw you in the long run, or follow the advice you've been given. DO NOT talk divorce. DO NOT give her the idea you'll be friends (you won't).

Trust me, I told myself all the same junk you're telling yourself. I trusted and was stabbed in the back for my trust.

The only answer for you is to be strong. Being strong and NOT appeasing will get you your wife back if she comes back at all. If she doesn't come back then you get your kids.

I was told, when I just thought about not appeasing, that things would be ugly and we would never be friends and it would be a bloody divorce, etc. It was enough to get me to submit and give in. So I caved, didn't stay strong, and lost it all.

You're doing all the same things. You're a lorry heading at full speed into a wall.

I'm not saying these things to be harsh to you. I'm telling you as a man who's been in your shoes. You're heading towards disaster and are fooling yourself that you'll be friends and will be holding hands and singing Kumbaya with your soon to be ex.

No. You won't be friends. No, you won't be happy in 6 months when you're separated from your kids.

No, you won't be happy when she shacks up with another guy.

No, you won't be happy when said man is around your kids more than you.

No, you won't be happy when you have very little money left over after giving her most of your check.

Stop thinking anything aout D will be good. It isn't.

Fighting for your family is what is important.

Standing up for your rights as a father is important.

Exposing and following the plans given here are better than doing what you're doing. Appeasement will get you nothing and will leave you empty handed.

Don't accept it.

She:
1. Of course she wants a divorce: She is wayward.

2. She is still in contact with him, so she is a wayward.

3. Why are you listening to the lies of a wayward?? Waywards lie. She will tell you anything right now. She is like a crack addict. Do not believe that she will actually follow through regarding 50:50 assets, joint custody, etc. SHE IS LYING. SHE WILL SAY ANYTHING AS SHE IS WAYWARD.

4. So it will be tough to make ends meet?, but she is willing to sacrifice the money she could get from you?? No other man with her children?? All lies.

5. She is a wayward.

6. She is a wayward.

7. She can not love you while she is a wayward.

8. She is a wayward who has been partly exposed.

You:

1. You have to make that decision--Do you want her? If you want her, you have to improve your plan.

2. You should not be saying that. Do not tell her that you are willing to be her "friend". That is feeding her waywardness. You don't have to answer such a question or comment at all.

3. What do you mean you are not hassling her? She is still in contact with the OM. Are you letting her think that is ok? You should not be letting her think you are ok with her contact.

4. So you are telling her that it is ok with you that she divorce. You are assuring her that she can have an affair and you will be there to foot the bill. Why are you saying such a thing? If you can't think of something to say that will let her know that there is a cost to her affair, then, DON'T SAY ANYTHING.

5. Tell her you are not her "friend" that you are her husband.

6. The only reason she is letting you do stuff like that is because you have stopped exposure and you have told her basically that it is ok that she is a wayward, and you will take care of her while she is wayward.

7. Wake you up? For what? Are you her best friend? No, you are her husband.

8. She is stuck in a wayward mindset. You need to man up and be willing to cause a little disruption in all this. She is in charge and she is a wayward. The wayward is in charge in yours and your children's life. She should be depressed.

Lake is dead on. Waywards lie.

I was promised lots of time with the kids. I was told that the odds of reconciling were so good that I could keep the Christmas stuff.

I was also told that the online buddies were just friends.

I was told that she wasn't interested in dating for relationships, yet she was actively involved in one when she said this.

I was told I'd get lots of things I never got.

There is a line in the 180 plan which is true regardless of if you choose to follow it or not. It says that you should believe none of what you hear and half of what you see.

This holds very true for your wayward.

You WANT to believe her. THAT is your mistake. You're use to believing her. It's natural to you.

Not believing her feels unnatural.

Remember. We've been in your shoes. We fell for the same lies. Waywards are all alike. Don't believe a word she says. She'll continue lying to keep you in line and obeying like a good boy and going along with her plan of leaving you and taking all she can.

It's a common tactic and lots of broken hearted men fall for it. It's evil and a horrible manipulation of your trust and love. So stop believing her and doubt everything she says.

This is very hard to do because you very much want to believe and will grasp at every straw you can since you feel dispair.

Please remember that you're dealing with a wayward spouse and wayward spouses are amongst the most evil, calculating, and thoughtless creatures around. They have not shame and there are no limits on how far they'll go to get their way.

Being strong is the only answer to dealing with a WW.