Lake,

There's nothing in the 180 that contradicts Plan A. It's a good guide on how to act when things are so messed up. It's a guide. They aren't hard and fast rules, but if you look at the 180, it's focused on attractive behaviors in the BS and avoids the unattractive ones. Things like:

Don't follow the spouse around the house.

Don't talk about the good things in the marriage.

Don't beg, weep, or plead.

These are all unattractive behaviors.

"Carrying on with your life" doesn't mean ignoring your spouse. It means that it shows your spouse that you have a life outside of her. This IS attractive and it is certainly more attractive than sitting at home on a Friday night while she's out with OM.

So if she's out with OM, he could be out with the kids and taking them places or hiring a sitter while they sleep and at least giving the appearance of doing something other than sitting at home waiting for WW to come home after her bedroom escapades are over with OM.

He needs to confront OM. He needs to call OM's family and friends.

He needs to make the relationship with her and OM difficult. If she continues this, after he Plan A's and provides good memories for her, then he can and should kick her a$$ out the door to be with OM.

She wants independence? Then by all means, get out of the home I'm paying for, get your own car, insurance, phone plan, etc. Go be the independent woman you wish to be and don't call me while you're at it. The kids and I will be just fine. The door is open for W to return home. Otherwise stay out and go be with OM while I live my life and the kids and I continue to be a family.

THAT is what he should do.

Growing a pair is a start. Being attractive by being a man and not just laying down and accepting this incredible amount of disrespect.

It would be great if some FWWes weighed in here.

I'm not an expert by any means but alot of what P is saying here is correct.

If she wants to separate then do not pay for ANYTHING. She wants to be independent then let her. "Space?" She's doing to be shacked up with OM before you know it. Is he married? Girlfriend? Can you expose to them?

Are you documenting the threats she made against you? The next time she does that call the police. Also while you're at it be very careful that you don't give her any reason to call them and make a false report. That has happened before on MB.

If she's talking to OM in your home tell her loudly "Do not call your affair partner from our home"

And tell her "I do marriage, my attorney does divorce" Have you checked into what your legal options are? Wouldn't hurt for you to do so.

She was never in NC with OM, trust me on this- they just went further underground.

I think you could benefit from a call with the Harleys. Please think about investing in that.

Are you in Britain or the States?

Take advantage of the exchange rate and call the Harley's. Believe me, it's cheaper than a divorce lawyer.

Please, please, please beware of British family law. Seeing those men dressed as super heroes and getting arrested was very dramatic. All they were were men who wanted to see and spend time with their children.

I don't know if things have changed in England in terms of Father's rights but you're in serious danger of losing contact with your children if you don't get your head out of your butt and start being a man.

Things in the States are getting better and father's are finally being recongnized as important to children, but other countries are lacking and I got the impression that things in England are very bad.

So it is very important for you, as a man, to start thinking clearly because you're not.

Listen to coachswife. She's a FWW and knows what she's talking about.

But beware of your rights as a father. THAT is more important than anything. Being a father to your children is more important than anything else and protecting that is easier now than later.

There is a carrot and a stick to Plan A. He needs to read Plan A and the carrot and the stick of Plan A and implement them. I think the "180" confused him and he ended up using the "moving on with his life" aspect of the "180" as an out to confrontation that is needed in the stick of Plan A.

Look, I don't want to get into a debate here about this "180" and Plan A.

I don't want to debate plan A and the 180 either. I do not however think he's done enough Plan A. To me, when I was wayward, the 180 would have just confirmed to me that my ExH didn't want me. That's just me.

But he does need to move on with his life. Moving on doesn't mean divorce.

It means carrying on with life and living it and not sitting around waiting for WW to get her head out of her a$$.

So yes, by all means, carry on with your life. Take your kids places. Go out with friends. Get in shape. Eat well.

When do waywards often react? When the BS starts moving on. So fake it till you make it.

There was a story on here on MB which I wish I could find. A woman dealt with her WH living with another woman. He'd come home to her twice a week for dinner and SF and would string her along.

Well, she got her act together and started distancing herself from him. She set her boundaries and did what is counter intuitive. She made him think he was losing her. She faked outings with friends where she looked as if she was going on a date when he came around. He'd ask where she was going, dressed like a million bucks, and all she'd say was "out".

He'd see her and she'd have suitcases in the trunk of her car and she would make sure he saw them.

Where was she going? Nowhere. She would go out to the library or with friends. But she didn't look like she was sitting around the house waiting for WH to come home for his next meal and SF.

So he started to think he was losing her and he came to his senses and recommited to the marriage.

It's one of the greatest success stories of MB and I wish I could find it.

Same goes with Mortarman, who is in the MB hall of fame. He didn't make anything easy for his WW. They went to court and she basically lost a ton of time with her kids in the divorce process. She came to her senses before the D was official and they are now in recovery. The difference between them and our good friend here is that they took action, started to move on with their lives or gave the impression of doing so. They Plan A'd, kept on the high road, and really didn't cave to their wayward's demands.

MM had a ton of time with his kids. There's others here who have done a lot of stuff and have had success by being strong, not by being indecisive and fearing the wayward's anger.

The 180 is Plan A. It gets results. They're not different plans.

Chrisner agrees and I hope he throws his two cents into the debate. There's a lot of vets here who see them as one and the same plan. There's nothing confusing about the plans either.

The 180 is a guide on how to behave and Plan A is the is the "plan".

SH himself acknowledges that Plan A rarely works.

But the 180 does work and does have immediate results when implemented.

Here's the "Carrot and Stick" of Plan A.

There's nothing in the 180 that contradicts Plan A. It complements it very well.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1640788

I notice that a lot of BS's seem to get the "carrot" part of plan A, but not the stick. Pom, I'm glad you found that link, and Melody just brought it up in a new thread as well. Plan A doesn't work all the time, but it will never work if you don't apply the whole thing including both the carrot AND the stick.

180 is not the MB way.

Plan A is about meeting the wayward's ENs, avoiding LBs and improving yourself.

Here's a good do's and don't's list that Mr. W brought here...

DOs

1. Act Happy
2. Get a life (new activities, etc.)
3. repeat over and over..."I will make it"
4. Actively LISTEN....keep conversations at "to the point...small talk" ...don't blow it up beyond the waywards current comfort zone
5. Tend to Agree (Thank you for your truthfulness, It seems that way, you have a point)
6. Expand your social relationships (Being especially aware of your own vulnerability and keeping sharing and time with opposite sex relationships to an absolute minimum)
7. Get sexy (gym, new clothes, etc)
8. Focus on your strengths and Positives...don't put yourself down verbally or constantly go over what you did wrong
9. Accept Uncertainty (Do your best today and let God take care of tommorrow)

DON'Ts

1. Repeatedly say "I love you"
2. Ask questions that don't have answers yet
3. Criticize, complain, whine or nag
4. Say, "I've changed"....allow the wayward spouse to simply judge your actions
5. Argue, Reason or Plead
6. Don't get family or friends overly involved in recovery (notice I said "in recovery", EXPOSURE to bust up an active affair IS ESSENTIAL and EXPOSURE to the OP's spouse is an absolute MUST)
7. Act helpless or depressed
8. Discuss morality, invoke God or Dr. Laura type babble
9. Suggest marital counseling (must be the waywards idea)
10. Tell them continually "we need to work on the relationship"
11. GIVE UP


It is not unusual for a person to have to move to Plan B after Plan A.

Mortarman did a GREAT Plan B, after a good Plan A.

He gave his WW a good PBL and stayed VERY dark.

I don't remember reading he had done a 180.

Geez, guys. There's room for differing view points here. There is nothing in the 180 that contradicts Plan A. Nothing.

But if you choose to not follow it, then look at the list that Mr. W came up with (which is basically the 180).

Whatever you want to call it, it works.

The 180 is designed to get rid of unattractive behaviors and get rid of love busters. It does that very well if followed.

It's a guide, not a plan.

not out,
are you still there? I know this is a lot of info to digest. But I think everyone here is looking out for your best interest. I think it is important that you tell us exactly what is going on--what conversations and what behaviors are taking place with you, WW and WW and OM.

Also, tell us what you plan to do. Give us some step by step infor regarding your current behaviors and your planned behaviors so we can see more clearly what is going on right now.

Did you meet with your wife for that divorce or separation talk?

It sure sounds like your WW is very foggy and that she is using you right now as a wallet and a child care provider.

Again, it is important that you do not encourage her view of herself as a single woman who does not have children with you.

Are you paying for all of her activity? It sounds like you are having a hard time with sticking to a statement that you don't talk divorce, that lawyers do that.

How angry does she get? I was under the impression she gets verbally angry. I did not get the impression that she got physical with you. Does she? Does she destroy property? Or just yell?

Stay with us here. Together we can help you. What are your boundaries related to her behavior? Tell us more concretly what is going on.

HI all, thank you so much for all the advice, I really appreciate it.
I am trying to follow as best I can but I am losing my way I think. I will answer Lake's questions so you have all the insight you can to help me.

Firstly the situation from my WW point of view:

1) She absolutely wants a divorce, has put the past behind her (our marriage) and only wants to look at the future.
2) Despite the exposure which has shaken her up a bit, she is still in contact with OM by phone and SMS. She hasn't met up with him though. She says he is special and wants to keep seeing him but not sure if as a friend or more. She can't have sex with him even if she wanted to for the next couple of months as she has some gynae problems (perhaps this is karma at work!). She doesn't want a full on relationship with him. OM is besotted with her which is not surprising as he is punchng well out of his league - she is WAY to good for him).
3) She wants us to be best friends and companions but just wants complete control of her own life. She wants us to have shared custody of the children. She is also happy to split all equity 50:50 (which is way better than any UK court would give me)
4) She knows that make ends meet would be tough and that she would have little social life but she wants to be on her own. She has also said that she will not let anyone apart from me play a role in the childrens lives. She doesn't want to have a live in partner ever (she is very sure on this)
5) She is very worried, started drinking a bottle of wine a night, missing training (which is virtually unheard of)
6) I think she may be cooling thoughts on OM a little too but that is only a gut feel from the way she is beahving.
7) She does not love me, but would like to be best friends, but should I not wish that, she is fine with that too and says only the kids would suffer.

My heart and head say:

1) Head says maybe a divorce is best as she has done some serious damage and I am not sure I can get past the affair
2) Heart says she is my soulmate, the most wonderful person in the world and I can't lose her

My behaviours (Try not to critise too much, I am trying!):

1) I have told her that I do not want a divorce and that I still love her
2) I have said that if she is insisting on a divorce then I have no choice but want to be friends
3) I am trying to be there for her if she wants to talk, but not hassling.
4) I have told her that if we split that I would make sure that she and the children wouldn't suffer.
5) When we went our for dinner on Mon evening, we agreed to stay friends.
6) this morning I went into the spare room where she is sleeping and brought her a cup of coffee. I lay next to her and cuddled her and stroked her neck and hair for about 10 mins. I said that it was really nice to have a cuddle and she said "yes it was nice" (which was nice to hear!). I then broke it off and said I had to go to work.
7) she is only sleeping about 1 hour a night so I said that if she wanted company to wake me up. She sasy she is worried about the children.
8) she is showing no anger at all now - she is withdrawn and depressed.

Overall, I am feeling stronger in myself and more positive about the future on my own. She is struggling but is adamant that she does not want me in her life, that is the other aspects that worry her: children, OM, money, hassle of sorting divorce.

We seem to be getting a little closer as friends, which is good but i feel this is only because I am being so nice. My plan was to keep being nice and try to get opportunities for us to have some fun evenigs out together with no heavy talk (we have babysitter for next mon night). I am going to try to string out divorce process and show that I am strong, independent, fun and confident. Also I think the shine will continue to wear off the affair.

This really is a very fragile friendship at the moment with huge distrust on both sides and could easily slip back into contempt. As such I don't want to rock the boat too much in terms of a start of a friendship, but I don't want to lose her. I need advise on where to draw the line.

Please keep the advice coming, I need you all to help me save my family and my happiness.

Sorry to be blunt.

You are totally screwing yourself and your kids.

Act like a man.

What woman wants a man who will let them walk all over him? She sees you as a weak p*ssy! Her OM would not take her crap!

I say, toss her. Go plan B. Get to the gym. Get social. Let her know YOU DON"T NEED HER TO HAVE A GOOD LIFE!!!!

Stop being a pansy doormat!

Ok. So you're in the UK. 50/50 would be good and it is my understanding that that is not very common there.

But you're calling it quits too early.

You're making a classic BH mistake. You're appeasing. Appeasement will get you nothing.

Why is she being nice? Because you're rolling over and doing as she wants.

She knows she has you in the palm of her hand and at her beck and call.

It is for this very reason that a little withdrawl on your part in terms of attention would be noticed by your WW.

She's use to getting it from you.

The idea that you'll stay friends is fooling yourself and she's fooling herself. Anger eventually enters the picture once you're past the initial shock you're in right now. Let me tell you, it's an ugly phaze.

You'll be angry that your life has been turned upside down. You'll be angry for your children and the lack of time you have with them (even in a 50/50 arrangement).

You'll be angry that she's with someone else.

You'll be angry when she acts contradictory to what she's saying right now. She says she wants to be on her own and independent, etc, but believe me, she'll shack up with another man as soon as she can and she'll have that guy around your kids before you know it.

So you have a choice. Appease, which leads nowhere and will just screw you in the long run, or follow the advice you've been given. DO NOT talk divorce. DO NOT give her the idea you'll be friends (you won't).

Trust me, I told myself all the same junk you're telling yourself. I trusted and was stabbed in the back for my trust.

The only answer for you is to be strong. Being strong and NOT appeasing will get you your wife back if she comes back at all. If she doesn't come back then you get your kids.

I was told, when I just thought about not appeasing, that things would be ugly and we would never be friends and it would be a bloody divorce, etc. It was enough to get me to submit and give in. So I caved, didn't stay strong, and lost it all.

You're doing all the same things. You're a lorry heading at full speed into a wall.

I'm not saying these things to be harsh to you. I'm telling you as a man who's been in your shoes. You're heading towards disaster and are fooling yourself that you'll be friends and will be holding hands and singing Kumbaya with your soon to be ex.

No. You won't be friends. No, you won't be happy in 6 months when you're separated from your kids.

No, you won't be happy when she shacks up with another guy.

No, you won't be happy when said man is around your kids more than you.

No, you won't be happy when you have very little money left over after giving her most of your check.

Stop thinking anything aout D will be good. It isn't.

Fighting for your family is what is important.

Standing up for your rights as a father is important.

Exposing and following the plans given here are better than doing what you're doing. Appeasement will get you nothing and will leave you empty handed.

Don't accept it.

She:
1. Of course she wants a divorce: She is wayward.

2. She is still in contact with him, so she is a wayward.

3. Why are you listening to the lies of a wayward?? Waywards lie. She will tell you anything right now. She is like a crack addict. Do not believe that she will actually follow through regarding 50:50 assets, joint custody, etc. SHE IS LYING. SHE WILL SAY ANYTHING AS SHE IS WAYWARD.

4. So it will be tough to make ends meet?, but she is willing to sacrifice the money she could get from you?? No other man with her children?? All lies.

5. She is a wayward.

6. She is a wayward.

7. She can not love you while she is a wayward.

8. She is a wayward who has been partly exposed.

You:

1. You have to make that decision--Do you want her? If you want her, you have to improve your plan.

2. You should not be saying that. Do not tell her that you are willing to be her "friend". That is feeding her waywardness. You don't have to answer such a question or comment at all.

3. What do you mean you are not hassling her? She is still in contact with the OM. Are you letting her think that is ok? You should not be letting her think you are ok with her contact.

4. So you are telling her that it is ok with you that she divorce. You are assuring her that she can have an affair and you will be there to foot the bill. Why are you saying such a thing? If you can't think of something to say that will let her know that there is a cost to her affair, then, DON'T SAY ANYTHING.

5. Tell her you are not her "friend" that you are her husband.

6. The only reason she is letting you do stuff like that is because you have stopped exposure and you have told her basically that it is ok that she is a wayward, and you will take care of her while she is wayward.

7. Wake you up? For what? Are you her best friend? No, you are her husband.

8. She is stuck in a wayward mindset. You need to man up and be willing to cause a little disruption in all this. She is in charge and she is a wayward. The wayward is in charge in yours and your children's life. She should be depressed.

Lake is dead on. Waywards lie.

I was promised lots of time with the kids. I was told that the odds of reconciling were so good that I could keep the Christmas stuff.

I was also told that the online buddies were just friends.

I was told that she wasn't interested in dating for relationships, yet she was actively involved in one when she said this.

I was told I'd get lots of things I never got.

There is a line in the 180 plan which is true regardless of if you choose to follow it or not. It says that you should believe none of what you hear and half of what you see.

This holds very true for your wayward.

You WANT to believe her. THAT is your mistake. You're use to believing her. It's natural to you.

Not believing her feels unnatural.

Remember. We've been in your shoes. We fell for the same lies. Waywards are all alike. Don't believe a word she says. She'll continue lying to keep you in line and obeying like a good boy and going along with her plan of leaving you and taking all she can.

It's a common tactic and lots of broken hearted men fall for it. It's evil and a horrible manipulation of your trust and love. So stop believing her and doubt everything she says.

This is very hard to do because you very much want to believe and will grasp at every straw you can since you feel dispair.

Please remember that you're dealing with a wayward spouse and wayward spouses are amongst the most evil, calculating, and thoughtless creatures around. They have not shame and there are no limits on how far they'll go to get their way.

Being strong is the only answer to dealing with a WW.